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On November 21 2012 22:50 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:48 Infernal_dream wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 kebeh wrote:
I only have an issue with Warp Prism's and DT's.
First of all, DT's should still be able to be fungaled due to the fact that they are a cloaked unit and fungal will decloak them and allow them to be killed. This will open up a lot of holes in the zerg defense, as well as a lot of holes in the zerg offense due to the lack of mobile detection. You'll have to have like 3 overseer's from now on when attacking protoss regardless if they have dt's because you don't have the backup of using fungal for that ability.
Also, with the warp prism, zerg being able to stop constant harass will be kinda dumb now because of the fact that, at least for myself in masters league, the main way I stop the warp prism harass is I always get the fungal off on the warp prism. Without that speed Warp Prisms will not die, unless the protoss is stupid.
Raven buff should help a little, but they probably should lower the cost of the seeker missle by a few points to make it more viable. How about fucking zergs stop relying on fungal growth to counter and kill every single different type of unit. you have spores, you have overseers, use them. You don't need fungal to kill hidden units. You poor fucking zergs still don't understand protoss only has one way to get a mobile detection and I have to stop making cols/imms to get it. Why so mad bro? Zerg really has litte to no ways to kill off 8 DTs fast enough that they dont snipe your hatch. Fungal was a little way. Without it I can only imagine surrouding your hatch with buildings to stop that, so only 4 DTs can attack at once. Maybe terran should think of that as new PF defense against toss ... would maybe make them win like 50% more games right? It is funny how people neglact the fact that Zerg has no real high DPS unit to counter said hatches snipes by DTs.
If 8 DT get warped into show up in your base and go after your hatchery and the protoss is on three or fewer bases, please just attack. That is so much gas that their entire army will be gimped.
If you are in the end game, BL/infestor mode, why have you not built spines/spores at all bases? Even 8 DTs have to respect a spore and 3 spines long enough for you get to get something over there to kick their ass.
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On November 21 2012 22:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:53 trinxified wrote:
Who even uses Raven for HSM anyway? Most of their energy is dumped on the PDDs, as those are much more useful in most scenarios. Hence they buffed HSM.
The "buff", not requiring a research doesn't mean it will be useful. Most would rather expend the 125 energy into PDDs.
I don't see Terrans spending the 200 gas and time just to use HSM. Not to mention, they don't even spawn with the required energy to do that.
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On November 21 2012 23:02 DurandaL917 wrote:
Sorry to deviate the conversation away from fungals for a moment, but does this change to the seeker missile make it suddenly a favored option for harassing mineral lines considering the splash damage?
Depends on the time in game. The main problem for me with Raven as a harassment unit is that it is pretty slow.
So at any time in the game where the enemy is expected to have some faster AA-unit it is a high risk-high reward harass.
Maybe comparable to non-speed WP templar drops.
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On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:33 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:30 phodacbiet wrote:On November 21 2012 22:27 Sissors wrote:On November 21 2012 22:23 m0ck wrote:
[quote]
Hello, my name is stimmed marine. And I am not fast enough to catch a speed prism and never ever used to defend against speed prisms. We simply use vikings (which are way slower than mutas) and missile turrets to defend against speed prisms. (You cannot surround your entire base with marines, and speed prism can always retreat a bit out of range of marines). And as previous poster said, zerg have complete air domination against zerg. There is no reason why you shouldnt have a wall of overlords. Spreading overlords vs toss is bad because if he goes air those overlords are dead. Its kinda like saying why dont you build all your pylons around your base in attackable position and not inside your base. Wouldn't call it bad but it is not an "all-heal" you still need your eyes to catch the glimpse of a SPW. The faster the unit, the harder to catch on minimap. And since Toss like SG openings more and more (which I think is right) and need an SG in lategame anyways it would be not too huge of an investment to build 2 phoenix and kill all OLs considering what it enables you to do after that. Mind blowing idea: fungal the phoenixes. In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings  Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change.
kind of like nerfing the upgrade for High Templar... Oh wait. You guys will be fine and I think this will make for more interesting games and different units being played. BTW there was a time when no one used infestors...
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On November 21 2012 23:00 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:55 kebeh wrote:On November 21 2012 22:48 Infernal_dream wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 kebeh wrote:
I only have an issue with Warp Prism's and DT's.
First of all, DT's should still be able to be fungaled due to the fact that they are a cloaked unit and fungal will decloak them and allow them to be killed. This will open up a lot of holes in the zerg defense, as well as a lot of holes in the zerg offense due to the lack of mobile detection. You'll have to have like 3 overseer's from now on when attacking protoss regardless if they have dt's because you don't have the backup of using fungal for that ability.
Also, with the warp prism, zerg being able to stop constant harass will be kinda dumb now because of the fact that, at least for myself in masters league, the main way I stop the warp prism harass is I always get the fungal off on the warp prism. Without that speed Warp Prisms will not die, unless the protoss is stupid.
Raven buff should help a little, but they probably should lower the cost of the seeker missle by a few points to make it more viable. How about fucking zergs stop relying on fungal growth to counter and kill every single different type of unit. you have spores, you have overseers, use them. You don't need fungal to kill hidden units. You poor fucking zergs still don't understand protoss only has one way to get a mobile detection and I have to stop making cols/imms to get it. I'm not really talking about detection as much. In regards to defense which is my bigger issue. Warp prism harass is strong without the fungal nerf, if used correctly. With the nerf now, yes we can have spore crawlers and overseers everywhere, but the prisms aren't going to be able to be fungaled and taking out, which pretty much lets the the warp prism's have free reign as long as they are used intelligently. Its not hard to use a warp prism intelligently. Its just fly over somewhere safe, transform, press w, and mass click haha. Now, it will be pretty hard (unless zerg pre-emptively spam spore + spine) to kill the warp prism since they can just warp in kill stuff and leave. Zerg anti air is the worst out of the 3 race without fungal. The reason people spam infestor is not only because the unit is OP, but the unit allows zerg to stay competitive and patches the race weakness. Zerg's anti air are terrible, they dont have fast mobile anti air like toss (stalkers) and terran (marines), so the infestor allows zerg to not die to silly things. Remember pre infestor buff? Toss would just open SG into Colossus and would just roll zerg over because zerg had no anti air.
Mhm, Exactly. Fungals were considered imbalanced mostly due to the fact they patched other weaknesses. If anyone compares hydralisks to marines/stalkers like i've seen you're honestly really idiotic due to the lack of viable usage of the unit.
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On November 21 2012 23:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:33 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:30 phodacbiet wrote:On November 21 2012 22:27 Sissors wrote:
[quote]
And I am not fast enough to catch a speed prism and never ever used to defend against speed prisms. We simply use vikings (which are way slower than mutas) and missile turrets to defend against speed prisms. (You cannot surround your entire base with marines, and speed prism can always retreat a bit out of range of marines).
And as previous poster said, zerg have complete air domination against zerg. There is no reason why you shouldnt have a wall of overlords. Spreading overlords vs toss is bad because if he goes air those overlords are dead. Its kinda like saying why dont you build all your pylons around your base in attackable position and not inside your base. Wouldn't call it bad but it is not an "all-heal" you still need your eyes to catch the glimpse of a SPW. The faster the unit, the harder to catch on minimap. And since Toss like SG openings more and more (which I think is right) and need an SG in lategame anyways it would be not too huge of an investment to build 2 phoenix and kill all OLs considering what it enables you to do after that. Mind blowing idea: fungal the phoenixes. In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change. kind of like nerfing the upgrade for High Templar... Oh wait. You guys will be fine and I think this will make for more interesting games and different units being played. BTW there was a time when no one used infestors... It WON'T make the game more interesting.
It will result in auto-losses and turtling games for fucks sake.
If toss would need to build 15 cannons at each base location, would that be more interesting? No goddamn it.
And as i mentioned before I am fine with nerfing fungal, hell I even said like 6 month ago to my practice partners I can't understand why it is not a projectile, would be much better.
But this patch is too much of a random patch and has too many impacts on too much unforseen things.
On November 21 2012 23:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:50 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:48 Infernal_dream wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 kebeh wrote:
I only have an issue with Warp Prism's and DT's.
First of all, DT's should still be able to be fungaled due to the fact that they are a cloaked unit and fungal will decloak them and allow them to be killed. This will open up a lot of holes in the zerg defense, as well as a lot of holes in the zerg offense due to the lack of mobile detection. You'll have to have like 3 overseer's from now on when attacking protoss regardless if they have dt's because you don't have the backup of using fungal for that ability.
Also, with the warp prism, zerg being able to stop constant harass will be kinda dumb now because of the fact that, at least for myself in masters league, the main way I stop the warp prism harass is I always get the fungal off on the warp prism. Without that speed Warp Prisms will not die, unless the protoss is stupid.
Raven buff should help a little, but they probably should lower the cost of the seeker missle by a few points to make it more viable. How about fucking zergs stop relying on fungal growth to counter and kill every single different type of unit. you have spores, you have overseers, use them. You don't need fungal to kill hidden units. You poor fucking zergs still don't understand protoss only has one way to get a mobile detection and I have to stop making cols/imms to get it. Why so mad bro? Zerg really has litte to no ways to kill off 8 DTs fast enough that they dont snipe your hatch. Fungal was a little way. Without it I can only imagine surrouding your hatch with buildings to stop that, so only 4 DTs can attack at once. Maybe terran should think of that as new PF defense against toss ... would maybe make them win like 50% more games right? It is funny how people neglact the fact that Zerg has no real high DPS unit to counter said hatches snipes by DTs. If 8 DT get warped into show up in your base and go after your hatchery and the protoss is on three or fewer bases, please just attack. That is so much gas that their entire army will be gimped. If you are in the end game, BL/infestor mode, why have you not built spines/spores at all bases? Even 8 DTs have to respect a spore and 3 spines long enough for you get to get something over there to kick their ass.
I played Zerg for 1,5 years and play Toss now for 0,5 years. And no, you don't need to respect 3 spines +1 spores with 8+ DTs.
And no I am ofc not talking about midgame 8 DT warpins...
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Austria24417 Posts
On November 21 2012 23:06 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:33 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:30 phodacbiet wrote:
[quote]
Spreading overlords vs toss is bad because if he goes air those overlords are dead. Its kinda like saying why dont you build all your pylons around your base in attackable position and not inside your base. Wouldn't call it bad but it is not an "all-heal" you still need your eyes to catch the glimpse of a SPW. The faster the unit, the harder to catch on minimap. And since Toss like SG openings more and more (which I think is right) and need an SG in lategame anyways it would be not too huge of an investment to build 2 phoenix and kill all OLs considering what it enables you to do after that. Mind blowing idea: fungal the phoenixes. In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change. kind of like nerfing the upgrade for High Templar... Oh wait. You guys will be fine and I think this will make for more interesting games and different units being played. BTW there was a time when no one used infestors... It WON'T make the game more interesting. It will result in auto-losses and turtling games for fucks sake. If toss would need to build 15 cannons at each base location, would that be more interesting? No goddamn it.
Your argument doesn't make sense. Zerg already turtles LIKE HELL and then a-moves across the map. The only problem is that there's no way for protoss to do anything with their successful harass since the zerg army can't be beaten. NOW! Protoss harass is pretty much still the same (speed prisms already shouldn't get fungaled) but they can actually convert successful harrassment into a win because you should be able to beat BL/infestor now.
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On November 21 2012 23:04 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:On November 21 2012 22:53 trinxified wrote:
Who even uses Raven for HSM anyway? Most of their energy is dumped on the PDDs, as those are much more useful in most scenarios. Hence they buffed HSM. The "buff", not requiring a research doesn't mean it will be useful. Most would rather expend the 125 energy into PDDs. I don't see Terrans spending the 200 gas and time just to use HSM. Not to mention, they don't even spawn with the required energy to do that.
It does make it more accessible. Maybe we'll see it 1 in 25 games rather than 0 in 25.
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On November 21 2012 23:09 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:06 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 23:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:33 bluQ wrote:
[quote]
Wouldn't call it bad but it is not an "all-heal" you still need your eyes to catch the glimpse of a SPW.
The faster the unit, the harder to catch on minimap.
And since Toss like SG openings more and more (which I think is right) and need an SG in lategame anyways it would be not too huge of an investment to build 2 phoenix and kill all OLs considering what it enables you to do after that. Mind blowing idea: fungal the phoenixes. In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change. kind of like nerfing the upgrade for High Templar... Oh wait. You guys will be fine and I think this will make for more interesting games and different units being played. BTW there was a time when no one used infestors... It WON'T make the game more interesting. It will result in auto-losses and turtling games for fucks sake. If toss would need to build 15 cannons at each base location, would that be more interesting? No goddamn it. Your argument doesn't make sense. Zerg already turtles LIKE HELL and then a-moves across the map. The only problem is that there's no way for protoss to do anything with harass and the zerg army can't be beaten. NOW! Protoss harass is pretty much still the same (speed prisms already shouldn't get fungaled) but they can actually convert successful harrassment into a win because you should be able to beat BL/infestor now.
Then you didn't understand my argument, let me try to rephrase it.
Zergs HAVE to build that static defense considering how efficent those drop will be when they can't be shut down. (the only thing a toss loses, flying into a base and seeing that there is too much, are opportunity costs which are pretty much irrelevant in 200/200 situations)
My problem is less with slow prisms controlled by diamond players.
My problem is speed prisms controlled by masters+ players in lategame.
Zerg will be uinder the constant fear of getting dropped. This will set them even FURTHER into the mindset of turtling.
You will create a game which gets MORE stalemate since zerg has to invest a lot more into static defense without having the ability to shut down a drop cost-efficently.
Would projectile base fungal do that? Yes. Would it be hard too pull of in terms micro/awarness? Yes.
That is what I call interesting.
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Invis Ghosts can snipe Overseers easily, fungal wont reveal ghosts anymore ;D
lets see how this works
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On November 21 2012 23:06 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:33 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:30 phodacbiet wrote:
[quote]
Spreading overlords vs toss is bad because if he goes air those overlords are dead. Its kinda like saying why dont you build all your pylons around your base in attackable position and not inside your base. Wouldn't call it bad but it is not an "all-heal" you still need your eyes to catch the glimpse of a SPW. The faster the unit, the harder to catch on minimap. And since Toss like SG openings more and more (which I think is right) and need an SG in lategame anyways it would be not too huge of an investment to build 2 phoenix and kill all OLs considering what it enables you to do after that. Mind blowing idea: fungal the phoenixes. In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change. kind of like nerfing the upgrade for High Templar... Oh wait. You guys will be fine and I think this will make for more interesting games and different units being played. BTW there was a time when no one used infestors... It WON'T make the game more interesting. It will result in auto-losses and turtling games for fucks sake. If toss would need to build 15 cannons at each base location, would that be more interesting? No goddamn it. And as i mentioned before I am fine with nerfing fungal, hell I even said like 6 month ago to my practice partners I can't understand why it is not a projectile, would be much better. But this patch is too much of a random patch and has too many impacts on too much unforseen things. Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:03 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:48 Infernal_dream wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 kebeh wrote:
I only have an issue with Warp Prism's and DT's.
First of all, DT's should still be able to be fungaled due to the fact that they are a cloaked unit and fungal will decloak them and allow them to be killed. This will open up a lot of holes in the zerg defense, as well as a lot of holes in the zerg offense due to the lack of mobile detection. You'll have to have like 3 overseer's from now on when attacking protoss regardless if they have dt's because you don't have the backup of using fungal for that ability.
Also, with the warp prism, zerg being able to stop constant harass will be kinda dumb now because of the fact that, at least for myself in masters league, the main way I stop the warp prism harass is I always get the fungal off on the warp prism. Without that speed Warp Prisms will not die, unless the protoss is stupid.
Raven buff should help a little, but they probably should lower the cost of the seeker missle by a few points to make it more viable. How about fucking zergs stop relying on fungal growth to counter and kill every single different type of unit. you have spores, you have overseers, use them. You don't need fungal to kill hidden units. You poor fucking zergs still don't understand protoss only has one way to get a mobile detection and I have to stop making cols/imms to get it. Why so mad bro? Zerg really has litte to no ways to kill off 8 DTs fast enough that they dont snipe your hatch. Fungal was a little way. Without it I can only imagine surrouding your hatch with buildings to stop that, so only 4 DTs can attack at once. Maybe terran should think of that as new PF defense against toss ... would maybe make them win like 50% more games right? It is funny how people neglact the fact that Zerg has no real high DPS unit to counter said hatches snipes by DTs. If 8 DT get warped into show up in your base and go after your hatchery and the protoss is on three or fewer bases, please just attack. That is so much gas that their entire army will be gimped. If you are in the end game, BL/infestor mode, why have you not built spines/spores at all bases? Even 8 DTs have to respect a spore and 3 spines long enough for you get to get something over there to kick their ass. I played Zerg for 1,5 years and play Toss now for 0,5 years. And no, you don't need to respect 3 spines +1 spores with 8+ DTs. And no I am ofc not talking about midgame 8 DT warpins...
Or have units waiting for the drops, or have corruptors/mutas intercepting warp prisms?
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On November 21 2012 23:14 Daumen wrote:
Invis Ghosts can snipe Overseers easily, fungal wont reveal ghosts anymore ;D
lets see how this works
Like blizzard expected it to, riiiiiiight?
On November 21 2012 23:14 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:06 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 23:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:33 bluQ wrote:
[quote]
Wouldn't call it bad but it is not an "all-heal" you still need your eyes to catch the glimpse of a SPW.
The faster the unit, the harder to catch on minimap.
And since Toss like SG openings more and more (which I think is right) and need an SG in lategame anyways it would be not too huge of an investment to build 2 phoenix and kill all OLs considering what it enables you to do after that. Mind blowing idea: fungal the phoenixes. In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change. kind of like nerfing the upgrade for High Templar... Oh wait. You guys will be fine and I think this will make for more interesting games and different units being played. BTW there was a time when no one used infestors... It WON'T make the game more interesting. It will result in auto-losses and turtling games for fucks sake. If toss would need to build 15 cannons at each base location, would that be more interesting? No goddamn it. And as i mentioned before I am fine with nerfing fungal, hell I even said like 6 month ago to my practice partners I can't understand why it is not a projectile, would be much better. But this patch is too much of a random patch and has too many impacts on too much unforseen things. On November 21 2012 23:03 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:48 Infernal_dream wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 kebeh wrote:
I only have an issue with Warp Prism's and DT's.
First of all, DT's should still be able to be fungaled due to the fact that they are a cloaked unit and fungal will decloak them and allow them to be killed. This will open up a lot of holes in the zerg defense, as well as a lot of holes in the zerg offense due to the lack of mobile detection. You'll have to have like 3 overseer's from now on when attacking protoss regardless if they have dt's because you don't have the backup of using fungal for that ability.
Also, with the warp prism, zerg being able to stop constant harass will be kinda dumb now because of the fact that, at least for myself in masters league, the main way I stop the warp prism harass is I always get the fungal off on the warp prism. Without that speed Warp Prisms will not die, unless the protoss is stupid.
Raven buff should help a little, but they probably should lower the cost of the seeker missle by a few points to make it more viable. How about fucking zergs stop relying on fungal growth to counter and kill every single different type of unit. you have spores, you have overseers, use them. You don't need fungal to kill hidden units. You poor fucking zergs still don't understand protoss only has one way to get a mobile detection and I have to stop making cols/imms to get it. Why so mad bro? Zerg really has litte to no ways to kill off 8 DTs fast enough that they dont snipe your hatch. Fungal was a little way. Without it I can only imagine surrouding your hatch with buildings to stop that, so only 4 DTs can attack at once. Maybe terran should think of that as new PF defense against toss ... would maybe make them win like 50% more games right? It is funny how people neglact the fact that Zerg has no real high DPS unit to counter said hatches snipes by DTs. If 8 DT get warped into show up in your base and go after your hatchery and the protoss is on three or fewer bases, please just attack. That is so much gas that their entire army will be gimped. If you are in the end game, BL/infestor mode, why have you not built spines/spores at all bases? Even 8 DTs have to respect a spore and 3 spines long enough for you get to get something over there to kick their ass. I played Zerg for 1,5 years and play Toss now for 0,5 years. And no, you don't need to respect 3 spines +1 spores with 8+ DTs. And no I am ofc not talking about midgame 8 DT warpins... Or have units waiting for the drops, or have corruptors/mutas intercepting warp prisms?
Read my previous posts ... I even gave you guys enough numbers to make it understandable why it is still stupid.
And I love it that everyone neglacts the fact that it will create LESS exciting situations.
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On November 21 2012 11:19 Sub40APM wrote:
Thats all fine and good but how is this going to help in late game for protoss? Isnt their complaint based on that, that if they dont kill the Zerg by minute 18-20 there will be a wall of broodlings between their archons and the infestor? I guess they want to see more base trade scenarios where the protoss just goes mass archons and moves around the brood lords
High Templars being immune to fungal is a MASSIVE buff to Protoss late game. It's now much, much easier to feedback the infestors where before it was pretty much impossible because your group of High Templars would just get fungals and raped by broodlords.
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Austria24417 Posts
On November 21 2012 23:12 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:09 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:06 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 23:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:
[quote]
Mind blowing idea: fungal the phoenixes. In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change. kind of like nerfing the upgrade for High Templar... Oh wait. You guys will be fine and I think this will make for more interesting games and different units being played. BTW there was a time when no one used infestors... It WON'T make the game more interesting. It will result in auto-losses and turtling games for fucks sake. If toss would need to build 15 cannons at each base location, would that be more interesting? No goddamn it. Your argument doesn't make sense. Zerg already turtles LIKE HELL and then a-moves across the map. The only problem is that there's no way for protoss to do anything with harass and the zerg army can't be beaten. NOW! Protoss harass is pretty much still the same (speed prisms already shouldn't get fungaled) but they can actually convert successful harrassment into a win because you should be able to beat BL/infestor now. Then you didn't understand my argument, let me try to rephrase it. Zergs HAVE to build that static defense considering how efficent those drop will be when they can't be shut down. (the only thing a toss loses, flying into a base and seeing that there is too much, are opportunity costs which are pretty much irrelevant in 200/200 situations) My problem is less with slow prisms controlled by diamond players. My problem is speed prisms controlled by masters+ players in lategame. Zerg will be uinder the constant fear of getting dropped. This will set them even FURTHER into the mindset of turtling. You will create a game which gets MORE stalemate since zerg has to invest a lot more into static defense without having the ability to shut down a drop cost-efficently. Would projectile base fungal do that? Yes. Would it be hard too pull of in terms micro/awarness? Yes. That is what I call interesting.
But then you can't beat BL/infestor. Fungal projectile doesn't change ANYTHING in PvZ.
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On November 21 2012 23:15 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:19 Sub40APM wrote:
Thats all fine and good but how is this going to help in late game for protoss? Isnt their complaint based on that, that if they dont kill the Zerg by minute 18-20 there will be a wall of broodlings between their archons and the infestor? I guess they want to see more base trade scenarios where the protoss just goes mass archons and moves around the brood lords High Templars being immune to fungal is a MASSIVE buff to Protoss late game. It's now much, much easier to feedback the infestors where before it was pretty much impossible because your group of High Templars would just get fungals and raped by broodlords.
Especially with warp prisms being immune as well, flying in a speedprism with 4 templar and feedback infestors will be a lot more effective.
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I like both. Fungal not affecting psionic is clever. I was against neural not affecting psionic which was first discussed and would have been terrible. Glad to see they didn't go with that idea. Raven always with HSM also sounds like a clever idea. As a non-terran, I like HSM - it brings more micro to my race, I like running away from HSM and splitting to avoid it. So bring forth the HSM.
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On November 21 2012 11:22 SarcasmMonster wrote:
I wonder how Blizz will explain it lore wise.
How come Fungus doesn't grow on Psionic units?
Easy, they could say that the psionic energy destroys fungus and therefore can't grow on psionic areas.
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Archons being immune to Fungal is a better story to tell.
This HSM change won't really make it a mainstay strategy to revolve around with... I would still rather cast down 2 PDDs on a full energy Raven than use one HSM.
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On November 21 2012 23:06 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:On November 21 2012 22:53 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:45 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:41 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 22:33 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:30 phodacbiet wrote:
[quote]
Spreading overlords vs toss is bad because if he goes air those overlords are dead. Its kinda like saying why dont you build all your pylons around your base in attackable position and not inside your base. Wouldn't call it bad but it is not an "all-heal" you still need your eyes to catch the glimpse of a SPW. The faster the unit, the harder to catch on minimap. And since Toss like SG openings more and more (which I think is right) and need an SG in lategame anyways it would be not too huge of an investment to build 2 phoenix and kill all OLs considering what it enables you to do after that. Mind blowing idea: fungal the phoenixes. In dead space? Show me the upgrade to grow my infestors wings Then put a new overlord there. Really, it's like protoss putting pylons around the map to spot for drops. They'll be destroyed every single time but they prevent a drop. Get overlord speed, move a new overlord there. Go with the flow of the game man! Wtf? If toss has two phoenix on the map killing overlords you want zerg to put new ones there? Its like saying: ur pylon got destroyed by 4 lings? Jesus just build a new one there, ezpz. You seem to compare clutch and on point Zerg micro/awarness with a medicore toss micro/awarness... Protoss put pylons around the map to spot drops. If they get destroyed, they build a new one to spot for further drops. If phoenixes bother you, make a single corruptor. Seriously, it's not that hard to defend your bases as zerg. Spines/spores will still do just as well against harrassment as they already do. Phoenixes destroying your overlords haven't really been a problem in the matchup, have they? So I don't get why they should be a problem now. They haven't been because Toss didn't feel the same pressure to drop as Terran. If now toss drops become so fucking cost efficent, they will invest into killing OLs. Spines and Spores SUCK compared to the other static defence (if you want to cry now about bunkers I will hint you at PFs). We need to mass them, and then you say: yea and btw build some corruptors too to kill stuff that kills your overlords which scout for stuff that kill your mine for what you build spines/spores. You want the game to be any more turtleish? Fine thats the right way to go. And btw im fine with nerfing fungal... but PLEASE in an intelligent way and not such stuff which got thought up in a 5 minute meeting ... would be same like implementing a random nerf to FF. It would mess SO MANY toss builds up that it would need to be a "addon" change. kind of like nerfing the upgrade for High Templar... Oh wait. You guys will be fine and I think this will make for more interesting games and different units being played. BTW there was a time when no one used infestors... It WON'T make the game more interesting. It will result in auto-losses and turtling games for fucks sake. If toss would need to build 15 cannons at each base location, would that be more interesting? No goddamn it. And as i mentioned before I am fine with nerfing fungal, hell I even said like 6 month ago to my practice partners I can't understand why it is not a projectile, would be much better. But this patch is too much of a random patch and has too many impacts on too much unforseen things. Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:03 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 22:50 bluQ wrote:On November 21 2012 22:48 Infernal_dream wrote:On November 21 2012 22:44 kebeh wrote:
I only have an issue with Warp Prism's and DT's.
First of all, DT's should still be able to be fungaled due to the fact that they are a cloaked unit and fungal will decloak them and allow them to be killed. This will open up a lot of holes in the zerg defense, as well as a lot of holes in the zerg offense due to the lack of mobile detection. You'll have to have like 3 overseer's from now on when attacking protoss regardless if they have dt's because you don't have the backup of using fungal for that ability.
Also, with the warp prism, zerg being able to stop constant harass will be kinda dumb now because of the fact that, at least for myself in masters league, the main way I stop the warp prism harass is I always get the fungal off on the warp prism. Without that speed Warp Prisms will not die, unless the protoss is stupid.
Raven buff should help a little, but they probably should lower the cost of the seeker missle by a few points to make it more viable. How about fucking zergs stop relying on fungal growth to counter and kill every single different type of unit. you have spores, you have overseers, use them. You don't need fungal to kill hidden units. You poor fucking zergs still don't understand protoss only has one way to get a mobile detection and I have to stop making cols/imms to get it. Why so mad bro? Zerg really has litte to no ways to kill off 8 DTs fast enough that they dont snipe your hatch. Fungal was a little way. Without it I can only imagine surrouding your hatch with buildings to stop that, so only 4 DTs can attack at once. Maybe terran should think of that as new PF defense against toss ... would maybe make them win like 50% more games right? It is funny how people neglact the fact that Zerg has no real high DPS unit to counter said hatches snipes by DTs. If 8 DT get warped into show up in your base and go after your hatchery and the protoss is on three or fewer bases, please just attack. That is so much gas that their entire army will be gimped. If you are in the end game, BL/infestor mode, why have you not built spines/spores at all bases? Even 8 DTs have to respect a spore and 3 spines long enough for you get to get something over there to kick their ass. I played Zerg for 1,5 years and play Toss now for 0,5 years. And no, you don't need to respect 3 spines +1 spores with 8+ DTs. And no I am ofc not talking about midgame 8 DT warpins...
Wait why are you complaining? Its a map designed to TEST this idea. Not implement it in its entirety. It's to see if it will work, so instead of complaining about an idea why don't you test it and leave constructive feedback to them. Hmmm seems like a valuable use of your time to me.
We don't think there’s a large problem here, but we do agree that it’s worth trying to make things better by allowing some different options for players facing Zerg opponents.
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On November 21 2012 23:14 Daumen wrote:
Invis Ghosts can snipe Overseers easily, fungal wont reveal ghosts anymore ;D
lets see how this works
yeah it just takes 8-9 snipes, that's 200-225 energy
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EPT
