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Call to Action: Balance Testing (2012/11/20) - Page 32

Forum Index > SC2 General
1876 CommentsPost a Reply
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Zenbrez
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada5973 Posts
November 21 2012 14:37 GMT
#621
Warp prisms immunes to fungal? Oh dear
Refer to my post.
Giantt
Profile Joined December 2010
Bulgaria82 Posts
November 21 2012 14:37 GMT
#622
That nerf to infestor is overdoing it. Imo it makes infestor not viable tech on 2 bases because it would fail against all pushes having sentries. Also it breaks ZvZ with infestors being immune to fungal
smidge
Profile Joined September 2012
United States25 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-21 14:38:13
November 21 2012 14:37 GMT
#623
So just in case anyone is curious, after Starport tech lab finishes:

~2:13 - +1 Seeker Missile
~2:28 - +1 Seeker Missile (if Corvid Reactor started right when tech lab finishes)

Edit: That is assuming you have stupid amounts of gas
For the random!
m0ck
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
4194 Posts
November 21 2012 14:37 GMT
#624
On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.

People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.

I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless.

So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again?
Lysanias
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands8351 Posts
November 21 2012 14:38 GMT
#625
I feel like Blizzard is making things rather complicated with this change.
It all feels somewhat wanky.
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
November 21 2012 14:38 GMT
#626
On November 21 2012 23:35 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 23:35 coko wrote:
Unsure if this hasn't been mentioned but the biggest thing in my opinion from the warp prism and HT being immune to fungal is reaver style play against zerg.

This is micro intensive, dropping high templar, storming or feedbacking all those infestors and if possible leaping back into the warp prism immediately

Which is awesome.


It is indeed.

On November 21 2012 23:36 iHirO wrote:
Would DT/Pheonix be a decent build now in PvZ? Seeing as the Zerg's only mobile detection is the Overseer.



It could be viable midgame and it's super cool. Infestors would still be strong against it by fungaling phoenixes but it sure as hell would be a strong map-control based composition as DT/Corsair was in BW.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
FakeDeath
Profile Joined January 2011
Malaysia6060 Posts
November 21 2012 14:40 GMT
#627
On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.

People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.

I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless.

So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again?


Exactly.
Now zergs will just keep pumping out more static defense and do the boring slow push.

Play your best
Hryul
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria2609 Posts
November 21 2012 14:40 GMT
#628
On November 21 2012 23:27 Corvi wrote:
on a sidenote: this kills mech in highlevel tvz because ghosts are now too important to miss and pretty much need the bio infrastructure and upgrades. makes me very sad.

so I need the +3 armor upgrade to snipe infestors? didn't know that.
Countdown to victory: 1 200!
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
November 21 2012 14:43 GMT
#629
Warp prisms being immune to fungal is AWESOME!

It means you could even feasably doom drop ON TOP of Infestor clumps. Either that or you can actually get around the map as protoss in a way that doesn't leave you completely open. That's a perfect, perfect change.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
mythandier
Profile Joined January 2011
United States828 Posts
November 21 2012 14:44 GMT
#630
On November 21 2012 23:02 DurandaL917 wrote:
Sorry to deviate the conversation away from fungals for a moment, but does this change to the seeker missile make it suddenly a favored option for harassing mineral lines considering the splash damage?

Absolutely not.

HSM is generally terrible at worker harass and you will usually only get 2-3 worker kills at best with a single HSM (for 125 energy that's very bad).

As far as worker harass is concerned you're better off throwing down 2 auto turrets (which is less energy anyway) and flying out. Even if the turrets don't kill workers due to reaction they will delay mining (usually quite a bit at undefended bases).
S_SienZ
Profile Joined September 2011
1878 Posts
November 21 2012 14:45 GMT
#631
On November 21 2012 23:40 Hryul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 23:27 Corvi wrote:
on a sidenote: this kills mech in highlevel tvz because ghosts are now too important to miss and pretty much need the bio infrastructure and upgrades. makes me very sad.

so I need the +3 armor upgrade to snipe infestors? didn't know that.

0/0 ghosts will get shredded by 3/3 broodlings
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
November 21 2012 14:46 GMT
#632
On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.

People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.

I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless.

So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again?

Because now Protoss will actually have time to make an air transition and have a strong enough army (with unfungleable temps) to actually have a real chance at winning an engagement. Turtling still sucks, but at least turtling isn't as massively Z favoured anymore.
Wildmoon
Profile Joined December 2011
Thailand4189 Posts
November 21 2012 14:46 GMT
#633
This change is in test map. Go play it and give real feedback. Don't just fucking whine about everthing. I am terran but i am curious why DT can't be fungaled is that bad. Can't zerg just build 1 spore each base then have 1 overseer with their army? I could be wrong though.
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
November 21 2012 14:48 GMT
#634
On November 21 2012 23:40 FakeDeath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:
On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.

People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.

I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless.

So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again?


Exactly.
Now zergs will just keep pumping out more static defense and do the boring slow push.



Except now they'll lose if they've taken enormous harrassment damage before - as they should.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
AfricanPsycho
Profile Joined December 2011
South Africa158 Posts
November 21 2012 14:53 GMT
#635
No slow of air units, instead of the projectile thing? What you guys think?

Poll: Add no slow on air units instead of projectile fungal

No, no air root AND projectile (7)
 
100%

Yes, but then projectile fungsl not implemented (0)
 
0%

No, air root is too vital (0)
 
0%

7 total votes

Your vote: Add no slow on air units instead of projectile fungal

(Vote): Yes, but then projectile fungsl not implemented
(Vote): No, no air root AND projectile
(Vote): No, air root is too vital



give a reason too
gg no re
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
November 21 2012 14:54 GMT
#636
On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.

People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.

I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless.

So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again?


It doesn’t lead to turtling, it leads to more protoss harass and pushing more multi tasking on the zerg. It allows the protoss to create situations where they can make efficient trades and cut into the zerg economy. Then when they confront the super army, the zerg cannot instant replace it due to a massive, unstoppable bank of funds.

Somewhere out there, LiquidHero eyes are filled with wonder.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
November 21 2012 14:54 GMT
#637
i'd like to see some games from pros with this patch in ZvP. Especially some games from stephano. Because it look likes the turtle metagame won't be viable anymore.
malaan
Profile Joined September 2010
365 Posts
November 21 2012 14:56 GMT
#638
Been playing this extensively all day so far and here are my thoughts:

It makes warp prism harass incredible in the mid game. You can start using Broodwar esque strategy like someone mentionned earlier mimicing reaver play which is very very awesome I think.

In both TvZ and PvZ, if the zerg takes huge economic damage and / or loses bases, the option to spend all money on infestors and pray is no longer an option. They are still great units, but you just can't roll the dice to win a pretty much lost game with them as much as you could previously.

Heat seaking missile shut down my brood lord corruptor infestor composition pretty well in 2 straight late game scenarios. I cant help but feel this might be too much of a buff, as he moved out with a 140 supply air terran / mech mix and beat my 200/200 +3 tier upgraded army with relative ease.

Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
November 21 2012 14:57 GMT
#639
On November 21 2012 23:54 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:
On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.

People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.

I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless.

So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again?


It doesn’t lead to turtling, it leads to more protoss harass and pushing more multi tasking on the zerg. It allows the protoss to create situations where they can make efficient trades and cut into the zerg economy. Then when they confront the super army, the zerg cannot instant replace it due to a massive, unstoppable bank of funds.

Somewhere out there, LiquidHero eyes are filled with wonder.


And so are mine. It's a huge step in the right direction.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Gladiator6
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden7024 Posts
November 21 2012 14:59 GMT
#640
Cant just people who post in this thread have some real feedback from the map instead of theorycrafting 101?
Flying, sOs, free, Light, Soulkey & ZerO
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