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Shit if this gets implemented, infestors won't be enough for drop defence. I don't think wp should be included in this.
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I'm more worried about the fact that sentries are immune. How are you supposed to hold three-base immortal pushes before broods now?
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On November 21 2012 23:59 mumming wrote:
Shit if this gets implemented, infestors won't be enough for drop defence. I don't think wp should be included in this.
I don't think pulling unit back is not really that unfair. Zerg units except BL are extremely fast anywway.
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A small, non-balance related question to ask is: how do we adjust the lore so that it makes "sense" that fungal does not affect psionic units? Maybe change the name of the ability to mind fungus or something?
I hope bliz doesn't forget that things have to make continue making sense (you know, the whole maintaining willing-suspension-of-disbelief thing) while they rework the game.
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On November 21 2012 23:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:40 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? Exactly. Now zergs will just keep pumping out more static defense and do the boring slow push. Except now they'll lose if they've taken enormous harrassment damage before - as they should.
well, it's not like zergs have a choice to go for a mobile lategame army that can mitigate harassment losses.
I would be more careful when talking about how the game "should" play out, when talking about a matchup in which there are no choices to be made
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OH MY GOD ! DO IT ! (coming from a zerg).
If they do that it will be soooo cool. I'm gonna watch all SC2 matchup if they do that (only watching TvT and PvT) because of thoses silly infestor (and i play zerg).
Fun because infestors are psyonic. So we will have to chose fungal the roachs or IT the other player's infestor.
And we will see a lot of raven and HS building and that's really cool.
They need to do it ! now !
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On November 22 2012 00:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:40 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? Exactly. Now zergs will just keep pumping out more static defense and do the boring slow push. Except now they'll lose if they've taken enormous harrassment damage before - as they should. well, it's not like zergs have a choice to go for a mobile lategame army that can mitigate harassment losses. I would be more careful when talking about how the game "should" play out, when talking about a matchup in which there are no choices to be made
Isn't it fair that you have mobility as your glaring weakness when you choose to go for immobile composition? Mech terran also work like that.
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On November 21 2012 23:56 malaan wrote:
Been playing this extensively all day so far and here are my thoughts:
It makes warp prism harass incredible in the mid game. You can start using Broodwar esque strategy like someone mentionned earlier mimicing reaver play which is very very awesome I think.
In both TvZ and PvZ, if the zerg takes huge economic damage and / or loses bases, the option to spend all money on infestors and pray is no longer an option. They are still great units, but you just can't roll the dice to win a pretty much lost game with them as much as you could previously.
Heat seaking missile shut down my brood lord corruptor infestor composition pretty well in 2 straight late game scenarios. I cant help but feel this might be too much of a buff, as he moved out with a 140 supply air terran / mech mix and beat my 200/200 +3 tier upgraded army with relative ease.
I tell you what I have told everybody in this thread who has been talking about playing games on this test map so far.
COULD YOU PLEASE UPLOAD SOME REPLAYS!!!! This way we would actually have a solid basis to talk about the changes. Because what you said sounds rather counter-intuitive. Fungal change being awesome and HSM being TOO STRONG??
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On November 21 2012 23:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? It doesn’t lead to turtling, it leads to more protoss harass and pushing more multi tasking on the zerg. It allows the protoss to create situations where they can make efficient trades and cut into the zerg economy. Then when they confront the super army, the zerg cannot instant replace it due to a massive, unstoppable bank of funds. Somewhere out there, LiquidHero eyes are filled with wonder.
Sentry-immortal will be even stronger and together with colossi/archon will dominate until BLs are out. At that point speed-prisms will be available. How do zergs handle speedprisms? 2 spores and 10 spines at every base and hope that the protoss won't forcefield the ramp to the base. ~7500 put into static defense+plus larva.
Or hope that the protoss don't just storm-drop the worker-line, because there is no way to stop that (or perhaps it should be 10 spores and 10 spines in every base?)
I don't look forward to split-map 1 hour games. The match-up is very hard for protoss if zergs get their ultimate army, but you seem to forget that before that happens, protoss have a long time when they're are able to bully the game. Shouldn't something happen to that period?
That way we might actually see zergs going for something other than "don't kill me before BLs".
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Like the idea, but it should be extended to Medivacs and Ravens, as well. After all, both have spells, it wouldn't be a stretch to call them Psionic. Also, Protoss drops are now immune to fungal, why not Terran? And Ravens are still so gosh dang slow... good Zerg players will be able to shut those down regardless of what Terran does.
To me, this just seems a little one sided on how it benefits Protoss (which is funny, seeing as how Protoss beat Zerg in WCS anyway). Isn't Terran the race that needs the buff right now?
Still, Ghosts are something. Maybe the game will change back towards more Ghosts in late game TvZ?
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On November 21 2012 23:57 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:54 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? It doesn’t lead to turtling, it leads to more protoss harass and pushing more multi tasking on the zerg. It allows the protoss to create situations where they can make efficient trades and cut into the zerg economy. Then when they confront the super army, the zerg cannot instant replace it due to a massive, unstoppable bank of funds. Somewhere out there, LiquidHero eyes are filled with wonder. And so are mine. It's a huge step in the right direction.
LOL I bet you are, looking forward to Hero's storm drops?
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On November 22 2012 00:05 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 00:03 Big J wrote:On November 21 2012 23:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:40 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? Exactly. Now zergs will just keep pumping out more static defense and do the boring slow push. Except now they'll lose if they've taken enormous harrassment damage before - as they should. well, it's not like zergs have a choice to go for a mobile lategame army that can mitigate harassment losses. I would be more careful when talking about how the game "should" play out, when talking about a matchup in which there are no choices to be made Isn't it fair that you have mobility as your glaring weakness when you choose to go for immobile composition? Mech terran also work like that.
Well, isn't it fair that Protoss loses every lategame battle, when they can build armies in my base? It's not about fairness, it's about talking about a retarted situation.
I just mean, saying that zerg should lose every game when they lose stuff to harassment is a little strong of a statement, when we considere that zerg must go for that vulnerability or lose to a Protoss deathball, isn't it?
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On November 22 2012 00:06 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:54 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? It doesn’t lead to turtling, it leads to more protoss harass and pushing more multi tasking on the zerg. It allows the protoss to create situations where they can make efficient trades and cut into the zerg economy. Then when they confront the super army, the zerg cannot instant replace it due to a massive, unstoppable bank of funds. Somewhere out there, LiquidHero eyes are filled with wonder. Sentry-immortal will be even stronger and together with colossi/archon will dominate until BLs are out. At that point speed-prisms will be available. How do zergs handle speedprisms? 2 spores and 10 spines at every base and hope that the protoss won't forcefield the ramp to the base. ~7500 put into static defense+plus larva. Or hope that the protoss don't just storm-drop the worker-line, because there is no way to stop that (or perhaps it should be 10 spores and 10 spines in every base?) I don't look forward to split-map 1 hour games. The match-up is very hard for protoss if zergs get their ultimate army, but you seem to forget that before that happens, protoss have a long time when they're are able to bully the game. Shouldn't something happen to that period? That way we might actually see zergs going for something other than "don't kill me before BLs".
The point is that if Zerg has to delay and defend for longer, Protoss has more chance to actually transition into an army that can fight BL/Infestor, as opposed to now where Protoss has no way of making the Zerg do anything once Broods are on the field since harassment can be shut down so easily. Sentry/Immortal will be no stronger. Sniper and others have already shown that Fungal is altogether unnecessary for holding Immo/Sentry.
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On November 22 2012 00:05 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 00:03 Big J wrote:On November 21 2012 23:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:40 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? Exactly. Now zergs will just keep pumping out more static defense and do the boring slow push. Except now they'll lose if they've taken enormous harrassment damage before - as they should. well, it's not like zergs have a choice to go for a mobile lategame army that can mitigate harassment losses. I would be more careful when talking about how the game "should" play out, when talking about a matchup in which there are no choices to be made Isn't it fair that you have mobility as your glaring weakness when you choose to go for immobile composition? Mech terran also work like that.
There is no mobile army that can fight the protoss preair-deathball.
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Austria24422 Posts
On November 22 2012 00:08 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:57 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:54 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? It doesn’t lead to turtling, it leads to more protoss harass and pushing more multi tasking on the zerg. It allows the protoss to create situations where they can make efficient trades and cut into the zerg economy. Then when they confront the super army, the zerg cannot instant replace it due to a massive, unstoppable bank of funds. Somewhere out there, LiquidHero eyes are filled with wonder. And so are mine. It's a huge step in the right direction. LOL I bet you are, looking forward to Hero's storm drops?
No... I'm looking forward to him using three warp prisms now, two to storm drop and one to feedback-bomb infestors. It will be glorious.
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Oh man, can't wait for Storm drops midgame :D
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Love these changes! Hope they make itä through
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On November 22 2012 00:05 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 00:03 Big J wrote:On November 21 2012 23:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:40 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? Exactly. Now zergs will just keep pumping out more static defense and do the boring slow push. Except now they'll lose if they've taken enormous harrassment damage before - as they should. well, it's not like zergs have a choice to go for a mobile lategame army that can mitigate harassment losses. I would be more careful when talking about how the game "should" play out, when talking about a matchup in which there are no choices to be made Isn't it fair that you have mobility as your glaring weakness when you choose to go for immobile composition? Mech terran also work like that.
Tell that to defensive warpins in an "immobile" Toss Deathball
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On November 22 2012 00:09 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 00:06 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:54 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? It doesn’t lead to turtling, it leads to more protoss harass and pushing more multi tasking on the zerg. It allows the protoss to create situations where they can make efficient trades and cut into the zerg economy. Then when they confront the super army, the zerg cannot instant replace it due to a massive, unstoppable bank of funds. Somewhere out there, LiquidHero eyes are filled with wonder. Sentry-immortal will be even stronger and together with colossi/archon will dominate until BLs are out. At that point speed-prisms will be available. How do zergs handle speedprisms? 2 spores and 10 spines at every base and hope that the protoss won't forcefield the ramp to the base. ~7500 put into static defense+plus larva. Or hope that the protoss don't just storm-drop the worker-line, because there is no way to stop that (or perhaps it should be 10 spores and 10 spines in every base?) I don't look forward to split-map 1 hour games. The match-up is very hard for protoss if zergs get their ultimate army, but you seem to forget that before that happens, protoss have a long time when they're are able to bully the game. Shouldn't something happen to that period? That way we might actually see zergs going for something other than "don't kill me before BLs". The point is that if Zerg has to delay and defend for longer, Protoss has more chance to actually transition into an army that can fight BL/Infestor, as opposed to now where Protoss has no way of making the Zerg do anything once Broods are on the field since harassment can be shut down so easily. Sentry/Immortal will be no stronger. Sniper and others have already shown that Fungal is altogether unnecessary for holding Immo/Sentry.
Immortal+sentry is, I think, fairly obviously stronger, and the further towards 200 supply protoss gets, the stronger it becomes. Having more sentries and more immortals when you push (with no fear of losing sentries to fungals) makes the push comparatively stronger. When you can push away the lower range units of your opponent, the fight is in your favor. 200/200 fights pre-broodlord are fairly one-sided, wouldn't you say?
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On November 22 2012 00:12 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 00:05 Wildmoon wrote:On November 22 2012 00:03 Big J wrote:On November 21 2012 23:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:40 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? Exactly. Now zergs will just keep pumping out more static defense and do the boring slow push. Except now they'll lose if they've taken enormous harrassment damage before - as they should. well, it's not like zergs have a choice to go for a mobile lategame army that can mitigate harassment losses. I would be more careful when talking about how the game "should" play out, when talking about a matchup in which there are no choices to be made Isn't it fair that you have mobility as your glaring weakness when you choose to go for immobile composition? Mech terran also work like that. Tell that to defensive warpins in an "immobile" Toss Deathball
Toss Deathball is weaker than the Zerg one, can't auto-win basetrades by bringing spines, can't bank Larvae, doesn't have a 9.5 range siege unit that spawns other units, can't root the opponent's anti-air, and can't spawn free units for energy. The Toss deathball has those things as weakness. The Zerg deathball has one weakness: harassment.
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