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On November 22 2012 00:13 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 00:09 Shiori wrote:On November 22 2012 00:06 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:54 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? It doesn’t lead to turtling, it leads to more protoss harass and pushing more multi tasking on the zerg. It allows the protoss to create situations where they can make efficient trades and cut into the zerg economy. Then when they confront the super army, the zerg cannot instant replace it due to a massive, unstoppable bank of funds. Somewhere out there, LiquidHero eyes are filled with wonder. Sentry-immortal will be even stronger and together with colossi/archon will dominate until BLs are out. At that point speed-prisms will be available. How do zergs handle speedprisms? 2 spores and 10 spines at every base and hope that the protoss won't forcefield the ramp to the base. ~7500 put into static defense+plus larva. Or hope that the protoss don't just storm-drop the worker-line, because there is no way to stop that (or perhaps it should be 10 spores and 10 spines in every base?) I don't look forward to split-map 1 hour games. The match-up is very hard for protoss if zergs get their ultimate army, but you seem to forget that before that happens, protoss have a long time when they're are able to bully the game. Shouldn't something happen to that period? That way we might actually see zergs going for something other than "don't kill me before BLs". The point is that if Zerg has to delay and defend for longer, Protoss has more chance to actually transition into an army that can fight BL/Infestor, as opposed to now where Protoss has no way of making the Zerg do anything once Broods are on the field since harassment can be shut down so easily. Sentry/Immortal will be no stronger. Sniper and others have already shown that Fungal is altogether unnecessary for holding Immo/Sentry. Immortal+sentry is, I think, fairly obviously stronger, and the further towards 200 supply protoss gets, the stronger it becomes. Having more sentries and more immortals when you push (with no fear of losing sentries to fungals) makes the push comparatively stronger. When you can push away the lower range units of your opponent, the fight is in your favor. 200/200 fights pre-broodlord are fairly one-sided, wouldn't you say?
Can still be defended by smart engagements. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing Sentries lose the Psionic tag; I don't think it's necessary for them to be Fungal-immune.
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Austria24417 Posts
On November 22 2012 00:14 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 00:13 m0ck wrote:On November 22 2012 00:09 Shiori wrote:On November 22 2012 00:06 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:54 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? It doesn’t lead to turtling, it leads to more protoss harass and pushing more multi tasking on the zerg. It allows the protoss to create situations where they can make efficient trades and cut into the zerg economy. Then when they confront the super army, the zerg cannot instant replace it due to a massive, unstoppable bank of funds. Somewhere out there, LiquidHero eyes are filled with wonder. Sentry-immortal will be even stronger and together with colossi/archon will dominate until BLs are out. At that point speed-prisms will be available. How do zergs handle speedprisms? 2 spores and 10 spines at every base and hope that the protoss won't forcefield the ramp to the base. ~7500 put into static defense+plus larva. Or hope that the protoss don't just storm-drop the worker-line, because there is no way to stop that (or perhaps it should be 10 spores and 10 spines in every base?) I don't look forward to split-map 1 hour games. The match-up is very hard for protoss if zergs get their ultimate army, but you seem to forget that before that happens, protoss have a long time when they're are able to bully the game. Shouldn't something happen to that period? That way we might actually see zergs going for something other than "don't kill me before BLs". The point is that if Zerg has to delay and defend for longer, Protoss has more chance to actually transition into an army that can fight BL/Infestor, as opposed to now where Protoss has no way of making the Zerg do anything once Broods are on the field since harassment can be shut down so easily. Sentry/Immortal will be no stronger. Sniper and others have already shown that Fungal is altogether unnecessary for holding Immo/Sentry. Immortal+sentry is, I think, fairly obviously stronger, and the further towards 200 supply protoss gets, the stronger it becomes. Having more sentries and more immortals when you push (with no fear of losing sentries to fungals) makes the push comparatively stronger. When you can push away the lower range units of your opponent, the fight is in your favor. 200/200 fights pre-broodlord are fairly one-sided, wouldn't you say? Can still be defended by smart engagements. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing Sentries lose the Psionic tag; I don't think it's necessary for them to be Fungal-immune.
Exactly, it's not the important part of this change and frankly quite unnessecary.
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Has it been tested/clarified by anyone whether it's total immunity, or they just no longer get rooted? I almost feel like this is affected the early/mid game a lot more than the lategame, which is what they're trying to target
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Why are they using the best map for Terrans to do this?
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On November 22 2012 00:14 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 00:13 m0ck wrote:On November 22 2012 00:09 Shiori wrote:On November 22 2012 00:06 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:54 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? It doesn’t lead to turtling, it leads to more protoss harass and pushing more multi tasking on the zerg. It allows the protoss to create situations where they can make efficient trades and cut into the zerg economy. Then when they confront the super army, the zerg cannot instant replace it due to a massive, unstoppable bank of funds. Somewhere out there, LiquidHero eyes are filled with wonder. Sentry-immortal will be even stronger and together with colossi/archon will dominate until BLs are out. At that point speed-prisms will be available. How do zergs handle speedprisms? 2 spores and 10 spines at every base and hope that the protoss won't forcefield the ramp to the base. ~7500 put into static defense+plus larva. Or hope that the protoss don't just storm-drop the worker-line, because there is no way to stop that (or perhaps it should be 10 spores and 10 spines in every base?) I don't look forward to split-map 1 hour games. The match-up is very hard for protoss if zergs get their ultimate army, but you seem to forget that before that happens, protoss have a long time when they're are able to bully the game. Shouldn't something happen to that period? That way we might actually see zergs going for something other than "don't kill me before BLs". The point is that if Zerg has to delay and defend for longer, Protoss has more chance to actually transition into an army that can fight BL/Infestor, as opposed to now where Protoss has no way of making the Zerg do anything once Broods are on the field since harassment can be shut down so easily. Sentry/Immortal will be no stronger. Sniper and others have already shown that Fungal is altogether unnecessary for holding Immo/Sentry. Immortal+sentry is, I think, fairly obviously stronger, and the further towards 200 supply protoss gets, the stronger it becomes. Having more sentries and more immortals when you push (with no fear of losing sentries to fungals) makes the push comparatively stronger. When you can push away the lower range units of your opponent, the fight is in your favor. 200/200 fights pre-broodlord are fairly one-sided, wouldn't you say? Can still be defended by smart engagements. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing Sentries lose the Psionic tag; I don't think it's necessary for them to be Fungal-immune.
New timings will open up and you're most likely right that they'll be defendable, but I'm just afraid that the answer will be suppy-style immortal-defense. 20 spines at 11/12 minutes, 50 at 15 and from there the deathball. Something needs to be done, and the sound of using warp-prisms in fights sounds great, but I'm worried about what kind of battle-plan it leaves to zerg.
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I like the direction of the infestor nerf, not on the basis of balance but just gameplay.
Okay so ghosts might not be that much more viable vs the zerg deathball, but leading up to that point I can see ghosts having a somewhat bigger role to play, and it may deter zergs from building too many infestors. Maybe.
PvZ though seems like it could be a lot more fun to watch now. Warp prisms with speed should see much more play vs zerg in the mid- and late-game, since there's no longer a risk to be locked down by fungal and lose your investment. In most cases a warp prism play will be worth a try. Heck even a warp prism with sentries on the top of the zerg's ramp between main and nat will be an even more tempting strategy, but then again that might not be a good thing? And then there's the whole immortal+sentry timing...
Oh well... I'm looking forward to more action.
I guess the Raven change doesn't do a whole lot. I really do hope someone will find a nice timing to get some Ravens at a time when you couldn't afford it previously, as opposed to a time where there's not enough time to get the energy. I mean, if you re-arrange some tech and get a few Ravens much earlier than you normally would you would get the energy to use Seeker Missile earlier than previously possible. We'll see how it turns out.
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The festor change is stupid imo, this wont help at all (ok, probably a little bit). Projectile fungal would be much more welcome.
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Does this mean I won't have to face mass infestor in TvZ lategame? Probably not, because 99% of terran units can be fungaled, and infested terrans are still very efficient (trade energy armies for real food armies? yes please.)
I don't like that one unit has so much flexibility and fulfills so many rolls at the same time. Zergs complain that they don't have enough units to choose from. Maybe the infestor shouldn't have both its abilities, but rather only one of them, and the swarm host could run on energy, whereby the player can choose between infested terrans or broodlings.
Zerg late game tech switches are a tad bit easier than tech switches for other races with Broodlord to Ultras already, and current infestor only augments to that feeling. Maybe zerg abilities aren't too powerful, just to accessible.
I am excited to see how successful or unsuccessful this is at solving the infestor problem.
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Does somebody with Master level have some stats ?
It would be cool to see master level player or even Diamond (of course GM) to do something like BO5 on the PTR to see what changes.
Would be a cool idea no ?
I'm not really concerned by the changes (even if i play zerg) because i don't really play anymore. But that make changes to tournaments that i watch 
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On November 22 2012 00:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 00:05 Wildmoon wrote:On November 22 2012 00:03 Big J wrote:On November 21 2012 23:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:40 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? Exactly. Now zergs will just keep pumping out more static defense and do the boring slow push. Except now they'll lose if they've taken enormous harrassment damage before - as they should. well, it's not like zergs have a choice to go for a mobile lategame army that can mitigate harassment losses. I would be more careful when talking about how the game "should" play out, when talking about a matchup in which there are no choices to be made Isn't it fair that you have mobility as your glaring weakness when you choose to go for immobile composition? Mech terran also work like that. Well, isn't it fair that Protoss loses every lategame battle, when they can build armies in my base? It's not about fairness, it's about talking about a retarted situation. I just mean, saying that zerg should lose every game when they lose stuff to harassment is a little strong of a statement, when we considere that zerg must go for that vulnerability or lose to a Protoss deathball, isn't it?
I didn't said that they have to lose every game if they lose stuff to harassment but they have to accept the weakness of immobile composition. Mech have mobility issue but it can work anyway. You just have to defend well. Can't BL/Infestor be the same?
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On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
The point is the protoss player doesn't actually have to devote anything at all to those drops, as the zerg player has to pull back just to deal with the threat of warpins, whether the warpins actually take place or not. So the protoss player gets to force a mass retreat for the cost of 400 minerals.
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On November 22 2012 00:26 Purple Haze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does. The point is the protoss player doesn't actually have to devote anything at all to those drops, as the zerg player has to pull back just to deal with the threat of warpins, whether the warpins actually take place or not. So the protoss player gets to force a mass retreat for the cost of 400 minerals.
If you can't tell what a Protoss army missing 30 supply looks like then there's no hope.
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On November 22 2012 00:19 Scholera wrote:
Why are they using the best map for Terrans to do this?
It's statistically the most balanced map.
I think this change could be really good for the PvZ matchup. I would love to see them implement it and then wait for 2-3 months and if it proves to strong after that time they can still change it or change other stuff.
2-3 months are necessary because this patch could change the way PvZ is played completely with the protoss being able to do warp prism harass styles and having better opportunities to engage the lategame Brood-Infestor-army, so there is a lot of time needed to see if the Zerg players can adjust to it.
I totally expect a sudden drop in the winrate for Zergs against Toss if this patch goes through but maybe that will balance out when Zergs have adjusted.
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On November 22 2012 00:23 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 00:08 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 00:05 Wildmoon wrote:On November 22 2012 00:03 Big J wrote:On November 21 2012 23:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:40 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? Exactly. Now zergs will just keep pumping out more static defense and do the boring slow push. Except now they'll lose if they've taken enormous harrassment damage before - as they should. well, it's not like zergs have a choice to go for a mobile lategame army that can mitigate harassment losses. I would be more careful when talking about how the game "should" play out, when talking about a matchup in which there are no choices to be made Isn't it fair that you have mobility as your glaring weakness when you choose to go for immobile composition? Mech terran also work like that. Well, isn't it fair that Protoss loses every lategame battle, when they can build armies in my base? It's not about fairness, it's about talking about a retarted situation. I just mean, saying that zerg should lose every game when they lose stuff to harassment is a little strong of a statement, when we considere that zerg must go for that vulnerability or lose to a Protoss deathball, isn't it? I didn't said that they have to lose every game if they lose stuff to harassment but they have to accept the weakness of immobile composition. Mech have mobility issue but it can work anyway. You just have to defend well. Can't BL/Infestor be the same?
I was talking about what I originally quoted:
On November 21 2012 23:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:now they'll lose if they've taken enormous harrassment damage before - as they should.
It's really not hard to do "enourmous" harassment damage with warp prisms (even) right now (mass Zealot/DT sacrifice on one tech building, mass Zealot/DT sacifice on one hatchery). The question is, who comes out ahead in the end and stating that the aggressor should do so (even as he loses quite more ressources usually) is quite stupid if the aggressor has a very easy time doing so. (due to the forced ZvP strategies)
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they need to increase the cost of the warp prism now. it has the same cost as 2 droplords or 1/2 medivac while being able to warp a tons of army and being almost as fast as speedlings.
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Austria24417 Posts
On November 22 2012 00:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 00:23 Wildmoon wrote:On November 22 2012 00:08 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 00:05 Wildmoon wrote:On November 22 2012 00:03 Big J wrote:On November 21 2012 23:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 23:40 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 23:37 m0ck wrote:On November 21 2012 23:32 Shiori wrote:
Change is good. Warp Prisms being immune to Fungal is a good thing because it means that Infestor/BL's innate weakness (immobility) can actually be feasibly exploited. There shouldn't BE a god composition that just crushes everything, and now even Infestor/BL will have one big thing to worry about: Warp Prism harassment that isn't easily deflectable. This means that you can't slow push across the map oblivious to any harassment. This is a good thing. It means that Protoss can force the Zerg player to delay their push until the Warp Prism harassment has been dealt with. It means that Zerg can't just go 30 Infestor and 20 Broods and be safe against everything. It means that they need to invest in more static defense. These are all good things because they open up viable options against the Infestor/BL composition.
People who are arguing that it will be "impossible" to deal with WPs now are hilarious. You can deal with them the same way everyone else deals with doom drops: by pulling back. If the Protoss player has 2 Prisms, each with 10 warpins, then he's devoting a hell of a lot of supply to those drops. You better have to actually pull back to defend them. 2 or 3 Infestors should not nullify any and all harassment of undefended bases. You should need to actually, you know, make combat units and static defense to do that like everyone else generally does.
I'm indifferent to the Sentry-immunity. It seems unnecessary, but I don't think it will matter much since Sentries are pretty bad lategame and because holding Immortal/Sentry has more to do with baiting out FFs than with blindly going Infestors (unless you're Suppy). As for the rest, I'm hoping it makes lategame PvZ a little more even. Kinda disappointed that Blizzard didn't give a correspondingly large buff to Terrans, though. The HSM buff is near-enough useless. So, the changes forces zergs into even heavier turtling. How is that good for the game again? Exactly. Now zergs will just keep pumping out more static defense and do the boring slow push. Except now they'll lose if they've taken enormous harrassment damage before - as they should. well, it's not like zergs have a choice to go for a mobile lategame army that can mitigate harassment losses. I would be more careful when talking about how the game "should" play out, when talking about a matchup in which there are no choices to be made Isn't it fair that you have mobility as your glaring weakness when you choose to go for immobile composition? Mech terran also work like that. Well, isn't it fair that Protoss loses every lategame battle, when they can build armies in my base? It's not about fairness, it's about talking about a retarted situation. I just mean, saying that zerg should lose every game when they lose stuff to harassment is a little strong of a statement, when we considere that zerg must go for that vulnerability or lose to a Protoss deathball, isn't it? I didn't said that they have to lose every game if they lose stuff to harassment but they have to accept the weakness of immobile composition. Mech have mobility issue but it can work anyway. You just have to defend well. Can't BL/Infestor be the same? I was talking about what I originally quoted: Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 23:48 DarkLordOlli wrote:now they'll lose if they've taken enormous harrassment damage before - as they should. It's really not hard to do "enourmous" harassment damage with warp prisms (even) right now (mass Zealot/DT sacrifice on one tech building, mass Zealot/DT sacifice on one hatchery). The question is, who comes out ahead in the end and stating that the aggressor should do so (even as he loses quite more ressources usually) is quite stupid if the aggressor has a very easy time doing so. (due to the forced ZvP strategies)
Never said that protoss should win by overcommitting units unefficiently. I'm talking about games like HerO vs Leenock where Leenock was on 3, then 2 bases because of continued sniping of his bases by HerO who lost a minimal amount of units. That's ENORMOUS damage. However, BL/infestor happened and Leenock still won. If you just keep suiciding units it's a different story. But basically after outplaying a zerg this hard, protoss should have a way to beat the army and actually make use of it.
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So now i am curious, what is zergs anti caster unit supposed to be then with infestor clearly not being it?
Broodlords? zerglings? hydra's? (LOL)
I thought the whole point of the ghost/templar/infestor is they counter each yet now the infestor simply does not belong in that spot anymore.
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Maybe I'm crazy but it seems like warp prisms and sentries having immunity to fungal will be a much bigger deal than the effect on infestor survivability. It will almost certainly make the sentry-immortal push considerably stronger. That effect doesn't really seem to be in line with the declared motive.
Infestors having immunity will be a considerable change too, but that can only change gameplay and not balance.
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On November 22 2012 00:36 Assirra wrote:
So now i am curious, what is zergs anti caster unit supposed to be then with infestor clearly not being it?
Broodlords? zerglings? hydra's? (LOL)
I thought the whole point of the ghost/templar/infestor is they counter each yet now the infestor simply does not belong in that spot anymore.
I heard broodlords are quite good at it. Which is the main reason you won't see ghosts when they spawn.
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It seems people forget a crucial point of what makes Starcraft great.
Everything needs to make sense to some degree.
At the very least, not be illogical or confusing to non-expert viewers.
Psi-storm killing stuff makes sense. Nuclear strike annihilating stuff makes sense. Vortex, stim.. all makes sense.
Spells like EMP or PDD are already border-line spells, since new players wouldn't necessarily understand them (notice how smart casters usually show the mana of EMPed units).
A fungal growth affecting a medivac but not a warp-prism not only doesn't make any sense, but is also 100% guaranteed to confuse pretty much every non-expert viewers/players (low diamond or below).
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EPT
