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Italy12247 Posts
On November 21 2012 22:00 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 21:57 Teoita wrote:On November 21 2012 21:55 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 21:54 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 21:51 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 21:43 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 21:31 ekus wrote:
Wtf? If this patch goes online, Zerg will be by far the worst race. It will be even harder to defend 2Base Immortal Sentry all in, you can´t kill warprismas (with speeed upgrade), dts and ghost cloaking will be so strong ( Ghost just snipe 5 Overseers so fast and cant be attacked after). It is so silly to nerf Zerg that hard, especially after Zerg doesnt even have a real advantage against Protoss. Just lost all credibility. Immortal/Sentry is not affected by this change as it hits before infestors. If it hits any later, you can just overrun it with roach/ling anyway. You make more static defense vs warp prisms. DTs not being affected is simply COOL and might just make them a useful unit. The big thing is archons/HTs and the possibility to do feedback drops on an infestor army. At least those are my impressions so far. Sentry cannot be fungalled means 2 base infestor( which was supposed to counter the Parting Immortal build) is now useless. And why exactly would I ever immortal all in against 2 base infestor? The immortal all in is supposed to work because of the greedy gasless third zerg takes in ZvP. Anyone who immortal all ins against a 2 base zerg does deserve to lose. Pretty much any 2 base zerg build beats immortal/sentry. Not if this patch goes through. 2 base mutalisks are probably the only legit answer to the immortal/sentry push. Going immortal all-in against a 2base zerg will still be bad becuase you have to commit to the timing before knowing wether it's mutas or infestors. Also opening robo vs 2basing zergs is sub optimal already (stargate is safer/more reliable) Yes this is true. I go 2 base infestor periodically to counter immortal/sentry all-in. Would 2 base infestor still be viable?
I'm not sure...it will definitely be more fragile to timings, but protoss don't really do them vs 2base macro zergs so eh why not.
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Austria24422 Posts
On November 21 2012 22:00 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 21:57 Teoita wrote:On November 21 2012 21:55 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 21:54 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 21:51 FakeDeath wrote:On November 21 2012 21:43 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 21 2012 21:31 ekus wrote:
Wtf? If this patch goes online, Zerg will be by far the worst race. It will be even harder to defend 2Base Immortal Sentry all in, you can´t kill warprismas (with speeed upgrade), dts and ghost cloaking will be so strong ( Ghost just snipe 5 Overseers so fast and cant be attacked after). It is so silly to nerf Zerg that hard, especially after Zerg doesnt even have a real advantage against Protoss. Just lost all credibility. Immortal/Sentry is not affected by this change as it hits before infestors. If it hits any later, you can just overrun it with roach/ling anyway. You make more static defense vs warp prisms. DTs not being affected is simply COOL and might just make them a useful unit. The big thing is archons/HTs and the possibility to do feedback drops on an infestor army. At least those are my impressions so far. Sentry cannot be fungalled means 2 base infestor( which was supposed to counter the Parting Immortal build) is now useless. And why exactly would I ever immortal all in against 2 base infestor? The immortal all in is supposed to work because of the greedy gasless third zerg takes in ZvP. Anyone who immortal all ins against a 2 base zerg does deserve to lose. Pretty much any 2 base zerg build beats immortal/sentry. Not if this patch goes through. 2 base mutalisks are probably the only legit answer to the immortal/sentry push. Going immortal all-in against a 2base zerg will still be bad becuase you have to commit to the timing before knowing wether it's mutas or infestors. Also opening robo vs 2basing zergs is sub optimal already (stargate is safer/more reliable) Yes this is true. I go 2 base infestor periodically to counter immortal/sentry all-in. Would 2 base infestor still be viable?
I definitely think it would be. Though as of now, it's still a pretty gimmicky build vs protoss in general. You basically have to do damage to make up for lost economy and I think 2 base muta is a way better macro oriented 2 base build that allows you to contain/do damage if protoss screws up.
I wouldn't mind sentries not being psionic at all though, as would most other protoss players probably. They're not the focus of this change.
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Italy12247 Posts
Yeah sentries immune to fungal is absolutely op.
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Does this mean we can't reveal DTs and Ghosts anymore by fungaling? Would be too huge imo.
I don't know how many games I would have lost if I couldn't detect Ghosts with fungal :/
And sentries not fungal-able feels just wrong(and is missing the point). Gonna test it tho.
edit: WOW Warppism not fungalable? Seriously? THAT is really not right. I could understand and forgive blizzard if sentries are not fungalable AND archons, but Warpprism?
So you just give Toss a free-ticket to go crazy on archon drops in midgame and force Zerg (again, like 1 year ago) into spire EVERYGAME.
To what leads that? right, if you survive midgame -> Broodlord for sure.
oh and can someone explain to me how zerg should ever kill a speedprism?
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This is such a stupid move by blizz. Its barely gonna change anything in the lategame zvp that is actually the problem for toss while making the 2 and 3 base timing even more powerful (no fungal for sentry and archon :D). Hope they realise it before its too late. Only raven hsm is a good move.
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All specuilation here. I think this will change the 2 base immortal/sentry into a slightly later build. Because you don't have to worry about infestors locking down the sentries you won't have to hit before infestors. Now you'll be able to get up a obs and a few more sentries before you push. obs first to scout for muta and if no muta tech you carry out the build. I think there will be an extra minute or minute and half window to push now. extra sentries will just make this push that much more difficult to deal with.
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The FG change goes against Blizzard's stated goal of not making a massive change and just providing more options for P and T.
I like FG not affecting Ghosts, HTs, and even Mothership, but the rest of the units listed create serious holes in the rest of Zerg early game and mid game gameplan.
We have no way to punish having an absurd amount of sentries without the ability to fungal them. I think a slightly later, but more sentry-heavy Immortal Sentry push might be even stronger than the current one.
If Warp Prism play happens, we're either forced to deviate down another path at Lair tech or to mass static defense at all of our bases in order to permanently shut down drop play, something that is impractical for someone trying to be aggressive at any point prior to late game.
DTs, while a more minor concern, a lot of builds depend on Infestors for detection as well.
The point isn't really that any of this will make ZvP unwinnable, simply that it isn't a small nerf. It's actually a massive nerf to the current Zerg metagame and will take several months of relearning for Zerg players to overcome.
Adding a tag to HT/Ghost (and Mothership?) that make them immune to fungal makes a lot more sense. Maybe also make the Mothership immune to Neural, forcing better splitting of Brood Lords in PvZ.
As a side note, I really like the Raven change, especially coupled with Ghosts being viable Infestor counters.
EDIT: I forgot to mention keeping Archons out of Vortex is simply not possible. Not necessarily a bad thing, since proper splitting is the counter to Archon Toilet.
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On November 21 2012 22:07 bluQ wrote:
oh and can someone explain to me how zerg should ever kill a speedprism?
Considering zerg has way faster air to air than terran, how should terran ever kill a speed prism? (Hint: we do fine).
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I think this way of changing Fungal could work well. Many people have thought that fungal is just too strong across the board. And usually Blizzard's answer is to nerf it into mediocrity like everything else. That approach has made many aspects of the game much less interesting.
Instead, they keep the power level the same, but make it so some units aren't affected. Now it is still a very powerful option against those units it still hits, but is no longer powerful against everything. This style of design is similar to spells like Irradiate or Lockdown or even EMP from WoL. A very powerful option, but only against certain units. The difference here is that fungal can be (as will still be) used against both other races.
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it's kinda silly that speed warp prisms are going to be unkillable for zerg, feels a bit too much considering how much units you can push out from em during late game.
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On November 21 2012 22:17 Beyond Magic wrote:
it's kinda silly that speed warp prisms are going to be unkillable for zerg, feels a bit too much considering how much units you can push out from em during late game.
Oh you can! Just put enough corrupters in any possible spot (and maybe spores, more supply efficient i heard) that they can oneshot a prism which MAYBE appear there.
And that at minute 10.
If you can't do that cause you die to other allins/pushes you must scout better! Jesus ... so obvious, all zergs so bad at scouring. You need to scout more guys. Ezpz, I mean you got the most Imba scouting units right? riiiiiight? riiiiiiiiight, sir rock?
On November 21 2012 22:17 Fig wrote:
I think this way of changing Fungal could work well. Many people have thought that fungal is just too strong across the board. And usually Blizzard's answer is to nerf it into mediocrity like everything else. That approach has made many aspects of the game much less interesting.
Instead, they keep the power level the same, but make it so some units aren't affected. Now it is still a very powerful option against those units it still hits, but is no longer powerful against everything. This style of design is similar to spells like Irradiate or Lockdown or even EMP from WoL. A very powerful option, but only against certain units. The difference here is that fungal can be (as will still be) used against both other races.
Making it a projectile would serve the same problem. BUT wouldn't affect a lot of ways you would use infestors are your core defensive unit (fungaling DTs to reveal, saving hatches with fungal from 10 DTs warped in, fungal sentries to prevent critical choke FFs etc ... )
I can't imagine how I should save a hatch from a mass DT warpin without surrouding every hatch with 8 spines.
Fungaling was a way better and more interesting way to deal with that, involved WAY more skill by both players.
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On November 21 2012 21:34 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 21:19 Snowbear wrote:On November 21 2012 20:54 Clbull wrote:Here's the way I see it Fungal change. Partially a thumbs-down.Reasoning: It's great that fungal growth may no longer affect archons, a unit that already has damage bonuses against every single unit in the Zerg arsenal out of the ideological lack of mechanical units for the Zerg. However, this is going to greatly imbalance PvZ in favour of Protoss. As STParting already showed, the immortal/sentry all in is already the go-to tactic for Protoss, having achieved something stupid like a 60-0 win rate in PvZ because of it and having very few professionals capable of even countering the push even when they *know* it's coming. Unless they change the Sentry to a non-Psionic unit, this means that the one unit that could unanimously close the timing for the Sentry Immortal all in would suddenly be useless. How are you going to fungal all those sentries and shut them down quick when Sentries are immune to Fungal? The only other solution would be Mutalisks but a lot of Protosses are quickly discovering that warping in Stalkers is a very powerful option against virtually anything. And with 7 gateways, you can warp in ALL THE STALKERS. In all seriousness, I think the Fungal change would be good if Medivacs were considered Psionic and Sentries weren't. Because this is going to empower mid and late game Protoss so hard. When a 4-sentry drop cannot be shut down at all because of good forcefields and the inability to fungal the sentries, or when a few key fungals cannot shut down that group of fucking pain-in-the-dick sentries that are forcefielding your ramp whilst the entire protoss army is raping your natural AND main with no resistance whatsoever... it's going to be a bigger fuck-you to the Zerg. On the plus side, at least it affects DTs and Ghosts, meaning that more mobile detection will actually be mandatory instead of two potentially late game cloaked units being ROFLstomped. One theoretical tactic would be to snipe all the Overseers, cloak ghosts and then let it rip upon the Zerg army. Plus in terms of TvZ, imagine a macrohard Terran with about 30 marauders and 30+ Ghosts against a ling bane infestor brood lord army? How would I change it: I'd change what units are considered Psionic and not Psionic. I'd make Medivacs and Ravens Psionic and remove the Psionic tag from Sentries to balance this out. Seeker Missile change: HEAVY thumbs downReasoning: It's simply not a good enough change. Seeker Missile is such a useless, underpowered ability that it's shocking that Blizzard hasn't either just scrapped it or actually done something with it. First of all, let's relay some basic facts about splash damage. Fungal Growth, deals 30 damage (7.5 dps) or 40 to Armored (10 dps) over 4 seconds and ROOTS the enemy. Costs 75 Energy. A single Fungal does 0.46666666667 points of damage per energy consumed per unit. This value doesn't change because you cannot "partially dodge" a fungal. Any unit hit by it is fucked either way. Psionic Storm, deals 80 damage (20 dps) over 4 seconds. Costs 75 Energy. A single psistorm does 1.0666666667 points of damage per energy consumed per unit. This value does fluctuate depending on how well your opponent micros and partially dodges storm. This still makes Psionic Storm the most efficient damage dealing spell by far. Even if you dodge over 50% of it, it will deal about the same damage as a Fungal Growth. And now to the piece of shit known as Seeker Missile. Based on this chart ripped straight from Liquipedia., it does 100 damage right in its epicentre, 50 damage near the epicentre and 25 damage about 1.5 Range away from the epicentre. To call Seeker Missile a shitty ability is an understatement. Seeker Missile costs 125 Energy. This means that right in its epicentre it only deals 0.8 damage per energy consumed. Plus it will only hit a large amount of units due to retarded micro, let's say if you clump up mutalisks. it won't even one-shot them! Even from a range that is literally dry-humping the exact pinpoint of the explosion, Seeker Missile will still only deal 0.4 damage per energy point. And when you go further from that? It's like comparing somebody with a nine-inch schlong to somebody with a two-inch micropenis his penis amputated. And what if I were to tell you that some fast units can outright dodge it and make your 125 Energy fucking useless? Or that the ability has a minuscule 5 Range compared to Fungal Growth's 9, Feedback's 9, and Psionic Storm's 9? Meaning that you can actually get hard-countered by fungal spam and not land a SINGLE Seeker Missile upon Infestors? Or that one feedback can INSTAGIB a Raven? How would I change it: I would consider two options, either 1. A gigantic buff to Seeker Missile, including the following patch changes: - Cost decreased to 75 Energy, from 125 Energy. - No upgrade required to use. - The damage of the ability being changed to deal 100 damage to its target and 40 damage as splash damage in a similar radius to Fungal Growth/Psionic Storm. Of course it would be lower because Terran have higher - The speed of the projectile has been increased so it can no longer be dodged but rather gives the opponent time to react so that they can spread units out. - The range increased to 9, from 5. or 2. Remove Seeker Missile and give Ravens a Brood War ability.... Irradiate Wow, this guy hit the nail 100000% on the head! Perfect analyses, perfect suggestions. Terran has no real scary spellcasters atm. The ghost is decent, but not half as scary as infestors and HT's. The raven could function as the awesome spellcaster that terrans need. Another plus is that it's not a boring unit at all. 1 problem with HSM being so easy to get, is that unit-splitting is kinda hard on low levels, so the missile would be too imbalanced there. Then we can opt for your last suggestion: irradiate! I really hope blizzard takes a serious look at this post, because the raven being awesome is exactly what we terrans need atm. Yes, because what the game needs is ridiculous spellcasters. TvT is the only really good match up because spellcasters are not that dominant.
To be able to stand a chance against powerful combinations as bl infestor, yes, we need them.
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I heard about the fungal change in Monk's interview with the man in the greatest rock-related .gif of all time, but until I read this thread, I'd forgotten that DTs and Warp Prisms were psionic. I have gone from thinking this change is ok, to thinking it's THE BEST FUCKING IDEA EVER. Now Toss can actually abuse the immobility of infestor-brood and can legitimately go for macro-harass strategies. Right now harass becomes almost impossible once there's more than 4 infestors out, but with Prisms able to escape and DTs able to force static defense Toss can (if they are good enough) harass whilst building up their Carrier-HT-Archon-Whatever army and have the opportunity to actually beat Zergs in the late-game.
The Raven change I like, but I'm not sure it's enough, tbh. Terran can be as strong as Zerg late-game, but getting out that end-game army without dying is still going to be hard as shit and unless auto-turrets get tougher or cheaper, I don't see a Raven being effective after the Ultra switch. I am glad Ghosts can now more easily be used to help nullify infestors, meaning multi-pronged aggression in the late game won't leave you with a completely useless army (marines that don't have fungals to worry about can actually deal with Broods ok).
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On November 21 2012 22:17 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:07 bluQ wrote:
oh and can someone explain to me how zerg should ever kill a speedprism? Considering zerg has way faster air to air than terran, how should terran ever kill a speed prism? (Hint: we do fine).
Hello, my name is stimmed marine.
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Sooooo.. how does this effect zvt..? Not like people were emp'ing ghosts in the first place =) BL infestor will still demolish terran (goodluck trying to emp with broodlords shooting). All this does is make pvz mid game a bit hard on the zerg and end game protoss will be able to abuse speed prism like crazy (which is fine.. except zerg doesnt have good/cheap mobile anti air) or Dts (which doesnt really matter.. except zerg detection is like.. bad)
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Maybe I am missing something, but does terran have something special to counter it that zerg doesnt have?
Maybe you answer that yourself:
Speedprism comes to your base and warps in 8 Zealots. In the moment you Spot it, you get a few Vikings there and Stim Marines/Marauders up the Ramp.
You pull your workers away, Zealots start to kill of your CC. What do you do?
It may be a pain in the ass but you will never ever lose your CC to that kind of play. Hatch WILL fall and Zerglings cant even clear it without support as Zealots can just retreat to the minerals and force 1v1 or 1v2 fights.
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I don't know why Blizzard buffs Protoss 2- and 3-base all-ins which are already strong and still not focusing on the actual issuse (BL/Infestor). Yeah sure this buff would increase P winrate vs Z by a lot since they would be more successful with their all ins, but they will still not be able to kill the Z lategame army.
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Austria24422 Posts
On November 21 2012 22:20 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:17 Beyond Magic wrote:
it's kinda silly that speed warp prisms are going to be unkillable for zerg, feels a bit too much considering how much units you can push out from em during late game. Oh you can! Just put enough corrupters in any possible spot (and maybe spores, more supply efficient i heard) that they can oneshot a prism which MAYBE appear there. And that at minute 10. If you can't do that cause you die to other allins/pushes you must scout better! Jesus ... so obvious, all zergs so bad at scouring. You need to scout more guys. Ezpz, I mean you got the most Imba scouting units right? riiiiiight? riiiiiiiiight, sir rock?
Zerg has creep spread for free vision, burrowed lings, overlords. Zerg basically has the easiest way to scout the map. Use it and then move your army. What happens if a terran army is caught out of position by a warp prism drop? Right, poor terran. Why should zerg have easier scouting AND an easier way to intercept?
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On November 21 2012 22:23 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 22:17 Sissors wrote:On November 21 2012 22:07 bluQ wrote:
oh and can someone explain to me how zerg should ever kill a speedprism? Considering zerg has way faster air to air than terran, how should terran ever kill a speed prism? (Hint: we do fine). Hello, my name is stimmed marine.
And I am not fast enough to catch a speed prism and never ever used to defend against speed prisms. We simply use vikings (which are way slower than mutas) and missile turrets to defend against speed prisms. (You cannot surround your entire base with marines, and speed prism can always retreat a bit out of range of marines).
And as previous poster said, zerg have complete air domination against zerg. There is no reason why you shouldnt have a wall of overlords.
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On November 21 2012 22:22 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 21:34 Godwrath wrote:On November 21 2012 21:19 Snowbear wrote:On November 21 2012 20:54 Clbull wrote:Here's the way I see it Fungal change. Partially a thumbs-down.Reasoning: It's great that fungal growth may no longer affect archons, a unit that already has damage bonuses against every single unit in the Zerg arsenal out of the ideological lack of mechanical units for the Zerg. However, this is going to greatly imbalance PvZ in favour of Protoss. As STParting already showed, the immortal/sentry all in is already the go-to tactic for Protoss, having achieved something stupid like a 60-0 win rate in PvZ because of it and having very few professionals capable of even countering the push even when they *know* it's coming. Unless they change the Sentry to a non-Psionic unit, this means that the one unit that could unanimously close the timing for the Sentry Immortal all in would suddenly be useless. How are you going to fungal all those sentries and shut them down quick when Sentries are immune to Fungal? The only other solution would be Mutalisks but a lot of Protosses are quickly discovering that warping in Stalkers is a very powerful option against virtually anything. And with 7 gateways, you can warp in ALL THE STALKERS. In all seriousness, I think the Fungal change would be good if Medivacs were considered Psionic and Sentries weren't. Because this is going to empower mid and late game Protoss so hard. When a 4-sentry drop cannot be shut down at all because of good forcefields and the inability to fungal the sentries, or when a few key fungals cannot shut down that group of fucking pain-in-the-dick sentries that are forcefielding your ramp whilst the entire protoss army is raping your natural AND main with no resistance whatsoever... it's going to be a bigger fuck-you to the Zerg. On the plus side, at least it affects DTs and Ghosts, meaning that more mobile detection will actually be mandatory instead of two potentially late game cloaked units being ROFLstomped. One theoretical tactic would be to snipe all the Overseers, cloak ghosts and then let it rip upon the Zerg army. Plus in terms of TvZ, imagine a macrohard Terran with about 30 marauders and 30+ Ghosts against a ling bane infestor brood lord army? How would I change it: I'd change what units are considered Psionic and not Psionic. I'd make Medivacs and Ravens Psionic and remove the Psionic tag from Sentries to balance this out. Seeker Missile change: HEAVY thumbs downReasoning: It's simply not a good enough change. Seeker Missile is such a useless, underpowered ability that it's shocking that Blizzard hasn't either just scrapped it or actually done something with it. First of all, let's relay some basic facts about splash damage. Fungal Growth, deals 30 damage (7.5 dps) or 40 to Armored (10 dps) over 4 seconds and ROOTS the enemy. Costs 75 Energy. A single Fungal does 0.46666666667 points of damage per energy consumed per unit. This value doesn't change because you cannot "partially dodge" a fungal. Any unit hit by it is fucked either way. Psionic Storm, deals 80 damage (20 dps) over 4 seconds. Costs 75 Energy. A single psistorm does 1.0666666667 points of damage per energy consumed per unit. This value does fluctuate depending on how well your opponent micros and partially dodges storm. This still makes Psionic Storm the most efficient damage dealing spell by far. Even if you dodge over 50% of it, it will deal about the same damage as a Fungal Growth. And now to the piece of shit known as Seeker Missile. Based on this chart ripped straight from Liquipedia., it does 100 damage right in its epicentre, 50 damage near the epicentre and 25 damage about 1.5 Range away from the epicentre. To call Seeker Missile a shitty ability is an understatement. Seeker Missile costs 125 Energy. This means that right in its epicentre it only deals 0.8 damage per energy consumed. Plus it will only hit a large amount of units due to retarded micro, let's say if you clump up mutalisks. it won't even one-shot them! Even from a range that is literally dry-humping the exact pinpoint of the explosion, Seeker Missile will still only deal 0.4 damage per energy point. And when you go further from that? It's like comparing somebody with a nine-inch schlong to somebody with a two-inch micropenis his penis amputated. And what if I were to tell you that some fast units can outright dodge it and make your 125 Energy fucking useless? Or that the ability has a minuscule 5 Range compared to Fungal Growth's 9, Feedback's 9, and Psionic Storm's 9? Meaning that you can actually get hard-countered by fungal spam and not land a SINGLE Seeker Missile upon Infestors? Or that one feedback can INSTAGIB a Raven? How would I change it: I would consider two options, either 1. A gigantic buff to Seeker Missile, including the following patch changes: - Cost decreased to 75 Energy, from 125 Energy. - No upgrade required to use. - The damage of the ability being changed to deal 100 damage to its target and 40 damage as splash damage in a similar radius to Fungal Growth/Psionic Storm. Of course it would be lower because Terran have higher - The speed of the projectile has been increased so it can no longer be dodged but rather gives the opponent time to react so that they can spread units out. - The range increased to 9, from 5. or 2. Remove Seeker Missile and give Ravens a Brood War ability.... Irradiate Wow, this guy hit the nail 100000% on the head! Perfect analyses, perfect suggestions. Terran has no real scary spellcasters atm. The ghost is decent, but not half as scary as infestors and HT's. The raven could function as the awesome spellcaster that terrans need. Another plus is that it's not a boring unit at all. 1 problem with HSM being so easy to get, is that unit-splitting is kinda hard on low levels, so the missile would be too imbalanced there. Then we can opt for your last suggestion: irradiate! I really hope blizzard takes a serious look at this post, because the raven being awesome is exactly what we terrans need atm. Yes, because what the game needs is ridiculous spellcasters. TvT is the only really good match up because spellcasters are not that dominant. To be able to stand a chance against powerful combinations as bl infestor, yes, we need them.
The more weight you give to casters, the more boring it is. Casters need time to charge energy, that's why players turtle while massing an army. And once the energy is up, those abilities just blow everything in a couple of seconds, making the fights look short, dull and boring. Instead of nerfing casters, Blizzard is just making them stronger and stronger and this is the wrong direction. sc2 looks everytime more and more like wc3.
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