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Call to Action: Balance Testing (2012/11/20) - Page 26

Forum Index > SC2 General
1876 CommentsPost a Reply
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Bahajinbo
Profile Joined May 2012
Germany488 Posts
November 21 2012 12:35 GMT
#501
Best news ever! Hopefully we will see more Ghosts in TvZ again.
And my 3 base push with DTs will be stronger than before. Zerg will suffer a lot and that's what I was hoping for.
aka_star
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United Kingdom1546 Posts
November 21 2012 12:35 GMT
#502
I have awaken to the call my brothers together we will fix this game and make it glorious again!
FlashDave.999 aka Star
Bojas
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands2397 Posts
November 21 2012 12:35 GMT
#503
Woo dat seeker missile change :D I am so happy the transition to ravens will be so much easier.
Lukeeze[zR]
Profile Joined February 2006
Switzerland6838 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-21 12:43:08
November 21 2012 12:40 GMT
#504
Let's rush to the mothership/raven like zergs do with infestors, it will definitely make the game look better.


Seriously, it's terrible. Nerf the goddamn FG cost, radius or range instead.
Terran & Potato Salad.
Mackus
Profile Joined January 2011
England1681 Posts
November 21 2012 12:40 GMT
#505
On November 21 2012 21:14 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Has anyone ever tried hydras against an immortal/sentry all in? Just curious.


Sen did at WCS Asia and transitioned into Roach/Hydra/Corruptor which was like the first ever ZvP build
trifecta
Profile Joined April 2010
United States6795 Posts
November 21 2012 12:40 GMT
#506
On November 21 2012 21:19 Snowbear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 20:54 Clbull wrote:
Here's the way I see it

Fungal change. Partially a thumbs-down.

Reasoning:

It's great that fungal growth may no longer affect archons, a unit that already has damage bonuses against every single unit in the Zerg arsenal out of the ideological lack of mechanical units for the Zerg.

However, this is going to greatly imbalance PvZ in favour of Protoss. As STParting already showed, the immortal/sentry all in is already the go-to tactic for Protoss, having achieved something stupid like a 60-0 win rate in PvZ because of it and having very few professionals capable of even countering the push even when they *know* it's coming. Unless they change the Sentry to a non-Psionic unit, this means that the one unit that could unanimously close the timing for the Sentry Immortal all in would suddenly be useless. How are you going to fungal all those sentries and shut them down quick when Sentries are immune to Fungal?

The only other solution would be Mutalisks but a lot of Protosses are quickly discovering that warping in Stalkers is a very powerful option against virtually anything. And with 7 gateways, you can warp in ALL THE STALKERS.

In all seriousness, I think the Fungal change would be good if Medivacs were considered Psionic and Sentries weren't. Because this is going to empower mid and late game Protoss so hard. When a 4-sentry drop cannot be shut down at all because of good forcefields and the inability to fungal the sentries, or when a few key fungals cannot shut down that group of fucking pain-in-the-dick sentries that are forcefielding your ramp whilst the entire protoss army is raping your natural AND main with no resistance whatsoever... it's going to be a bigger fuck-you to the Zerg.

On the plus side, at least it affects DTs and Ghosts, meaning that more mobile detection will actually be mandatory instead of two potentially late game cloaked units being ROFLstomped. One theoretical tactic would be to snipe all the Overseers, cloak ghosts and then let it rip upon the Zerg army.

Plus in terms of TvZ, imagine a macrohard Terran with about 30 marauders and 30+ Ghosts against a ling bane infestor brood lord army?

How would I change it:

I'd change what units are considered Psionic and not Psionic. I'd make Medivacs and Ravens Psionic and remove the Psionic tag from Sentries to balance this out.

Seeker Missile change: HEAVY thumbs down

Reasoning:

It's simply not a good enough change. Seeker Missile is such a useless, underpowered ability that it's shocking that Blizzard hasn't either just scrapped it or actually done something with it. First of all, let's relay some basic facts about splash damage.

Fungal Growth, deals 30 damage (7.5 dps) or 40 to Armored (10 dps) over 4 seconds and ROOTS the enemy. Costs 75 Energy. A single Fungal does 0.46666666667 points of damage per energy consumed per unit. This value doesn't change because you cannot "partially dodge" a fungal. Any unit hit by it is fucked either way.

Psionic Storm, deals 80 damage (20 dps) over 4 seconds. Costs 75 Energy. A single psistorm does 1.0666666667 points of damage per energy consumed per unit. This value does fluctuate depending on how well your opponent micros and partially dodges storm. This still makes Psionic Storm the most efficient damage dealing spell by far. Even if you dodge over 50% of it, it will deal about the same damage as a Fungal Growth.

And now to the piece of shit known as Seeker Missile. Based on this chart ripped straight from Liquipedia., it does 100 damage right in its epicentre, 50 damage near the epicentre and 25 damage about 1.5 Range away from the epicentre. To call Seeker Missile a shitty ability is an understatement.

Seeker Missile costs 125 Energy. This means that right in its epicentre it only deals 0.8 damage per energy consumed. Plus it will only hit a large amount of units due to retarded micro, let's say if you clump up mutalisks. it won't even one-shot them! Even from a range that is literally dry-humping the exact pinpoint of the explosion, Seeker Missile will still only deal 0.4 damage per energy point. And when you go further from that? It's like comparing somebody with a nine-inch schlong to somebody with a two-inch micropenis his penis amputated.

And what if I were to tell you that some fast units can outright dodge it and make your 125 Energy fucking useless? Or that the ability has a minuscule 5 Range compared to Fungal Growth's 9, Feedback's 9, and Psionic Storm's 9? Meaning that you can actually get hard-countered by fungal spam and not land a SINGLE Seeker Missile upon Infestors? Or that one feedback can INSTAGIB a Raven?

How would I change it:

I would consider two options, either

1. A gigantic buff to Seeker Missile, including the following patch changes:

- Cost decreased to 75 Energy, from 125 Energy.
- No upgrade required to use.
- The damage of the ability being changed to deal 100 damage to its target and 40 damage as splash damage in a similar radius to Fungal Growth/Psionic Storm. Of course it would be lower because Terran have higher
- The speed of the projectile has been increased so it can no longer be dodged but rather gives the opponent time to react so that they can spread units out.
- The range increased to 9, from 5.

or 2. Remove Seeker Missile and give Ravens a Brood War ability.... Irradiate


Wow, this guy hit the nail 100000% on the head! Perfect analyses, perfect suggestions. Terran has no real scary spellcasters atm. The ghost is decent, but not half as scary as infestors and HT's. The raven could function as the awesome spellcaster that terrans need. Another plus is that it's not a boring unit at all.

1 problem with HSM being so easy to get, is that unit-splitting is kinda hard on low levels, so the missile would be too imbalanced there. Then we can opt for your last suggestion: irradiate!

I really hope blizzard takes a serious look at this post, because the raven being awesome is exactly what we terrans need atm.


Tanks are supposed to be scary. Oh yeah, mines used to be a spell too.
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-21 12:47:26
November 21 2012 12:43 GMT
#507
On November 21 2012 21:31 ekus wrote:
Wtf? If this patch goes online, Zerg will be by far the worst race. It will be even harder to defend 2Base Immortal Sentry all in, you can´t kill warprismas (with speeed upgrade), dts and ghost cloaking will be so strong ( Ghost just snipe 5 Overseers so fast and cant be attacked after). It is so silly to nerf Zerg that hard, especially after Zerg doesnt even have a real advantage against Protoss.


Just lost all credibility.

Immortal/Sentry is not affected by this change as it hits before infestors. If it hits any later, you can just overrun it with roach/ling anyway. You make more static defense vs warp prisms. DTs not being affected is simply COOL and might just make them a useful unit. The big thing is archons/HTs and the possibility to do feedback drops on an infestor army. At least those are my impressions so far.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Narw
Profile Joined February 2011
Poland884 Posts
November 21 2012 12:49 GMT
#508
On November 21 2012 21:35 Bojas wrote:
Woo dat seeker missile change :D I am so happy the transition to ravens will be so much easier.


How does it makes transition to Ravens so much easier? It's 150/150 late game investment, it barely changes anything.
AbideWithMe
Profile Joined October 2012
207 Posts
November 21 2012 12:50 GMT
#509
On November 21 2012 21:05 Arco wrote:
I just got done abusing the PvZ changes (Master level vs Master level), might I say they are quite remarkable. I think it allows the Protoss to win the game via sheer skill. There's so many more things you can do late game. This is the first game I've ever felt comfortable playing in the late game versus Zerg, because there were so many options available.

1. Warp Prism harass is so much more viable. With Infestors unable to Fungal Growth Warp Prisms, you can harass Zerg all game long. Skilled players are rewarded by keeping their Warp Prism alive with good multitasking - no more Fungal Growth cheapshots.

2. Speed Prism + Chargelot/High Templar drops in the late game are absolutely stunning. You can get tons of Feedbacks off for free and force a ton of Infestor energy by mass Chargelot doomwarps. Not only this, the obvious fact that Zerg has to focus his attention on these attacks, it allows you to further increase your army's potential in an otherwise vulnerable timing window before Mothership energy or other critical tech/upgrades.

3. Army engagements are a lot easier to manage. High Templar don't feel so vulnerable all of a sudden, and you can actually get critical feedbacks. Zergs will have to improve their army control to guard their Infestors from Feedback. The Mothership can escape from a fight without getting chain FG'ed and killed. Warp Prisms to carry High Templar (think Brood War style, we've even seen some of this from the elite in SC2) to gain superior positioning on the Zerg army is now a viable tactic.

All in all, I think some great changes. PvZ late game is really fun now and comes down more to skill now than just luck. No more 16 minute 3 base shoves every game! Hurray!

Tanks for proving basically ALL the points I stated before. The only question now is how Zerg is ever going to win a game again lol.

Would you mind uploading the replays of the games you played?
""I abused a child today" -Stephano" - nmetasch
Sissors
Profile Joined March 2012
1395 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-21 12:55:47
November 21 2012 12:50 GMT
#510
On November 21 2012 21:35 Bojas wrote:
Woo dat seeker missile change :D I am so happy the transition to ravens will be so much easier.

How? Only thing it changes is a 150/150 upgrade less. Now I fully agree that upgrade should go away, but that alone changes a horribad abilitiy into a slightly less but still horribad ability. Seeker missiles need a serious boost to be useful.

And yes I spent enough time trying to find a point in raven. Eventually I got it to kinda work a very little bit in TvT, but that had more to do with the amount I dropped on the ladder. And one single small mistake and the game was lost, not to mention how micro intensive and prone to mislicks it is.

I dont think I got to explain how useless it is against toss. (The HSM, sometimes I make 1 or 2 when meching both as detection and for PDD, never HSM though).

Against infestors I also dont think I got to explain how useless it is. And this change does nothing to deal with that. Against mutas I sometimes worked. But after a few games in a game I launched my HSMs into a group of mutas that attacked my vikings + ravens. They didnt stop. They didnt run. They flew right into my army (pretty sure it wasnt deliberate, just enemy who was sleeping). End result? HSMs absolutely decimated my own army. Oh mutas also died, I think technically I won with 2 heavily damaged vikings surviving. Guess who could remake his air faster (not to mention that all my new ravens had no energy). So his next wave wiped out my units and I stopped with ravens.



For the zerg players: I dont think warp prisms should be immune to fungal (although I do think fungal should be a slow), but can you guys explain me how defending against warp prisms is harder for zerg than other races without fungal? From a terran POV: we dont have fungal, we dont have speedlings on creep, we dont have air that is as fast as speed prisms, and still I dont consider them to be uncounterable. Maybe I am missing something, but does terran have something special to counter it that zerg doesnt have?

Granted our static AA does more damage than zergs, but we dont have spine crawlers to help with whatever comes down. Defense is very simple: Some anti-air flyers if needed, and besides that just surrounding your bases with anti air. WCS quite frequently made me cry when a toss could do the same drop again and again against zerg without the zerg just putting either spore crawler there, or 1/2 corrupters/mutas.



Edit: And revert queen range boost. Then at least zerg is vulnerable to early agression and cant play as greedy.
FakeDeath
Profile Joined January 2011
Malaysia6060 Posts
November 21 2012 12:51 GMT
#511
On November 21 2012 21:43 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 21:31 ekus wrote:
Wtf? If this patch goes online, Zerg will be by far the worst race. It will be even harder to defend 2Base Immortal Sentry all in, you can´t kill warprismas (with speeed upgrade), dts and ghost cloaking will be so strong ( Ghost just snipe 5 Overseers so fast and cant be attacked after). It is so silly to nerf Zerg that hard, especially after Zerg doesnt even have a real advantage against Protoss.


Just lost all credibility.

Immortal/Sentry is not affected by this change as it hits before infestors. If it hits any later, you can just overrun it with roach/ling anyway. You make more static defense vs warp prisms. DTs not being affected is simply COOL and might just make them a useful unit. The big thing is archons/HTs and the possibility to do feedback drops on an infestor army. At least those are my impressions so far.


Sentry cannot be fungalled means 2 base infestor( which was supposed to counter the Parting Immortal build) is now useless.
Play your best
Finnz
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom260 Posts
November 21 2012 12:54 GMT
#512
i wish they would change fungal so that it atleast gives a better chance for terrans to work around the infestors. Ghosts are still not going to be used as much as they should be used because they were supposed to be a counter unit to the brood lord/ultra. Snipe on infestors will be good but the ghosts will just get crushed by any other unit that walks up to it so i dont know if its a very good change for both terran and protoss. Protoss players will be jumping for joy with it though haha.

The seeker missile change is an awesome idea. Not buffing it hugely so that it breaks the late game but making ravens a more viable unit for the terran to get out will make for much more interesting matches in tvz. We might even see ravens being used for tvp...who knows but its a step in the right direction atleast.
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
November 21 2012 12:54 GMT
#513
On November 21 2012 21:51 FakeDeath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 21:43 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On November 21 2012 21:31 ekus wrote:
Wtf? If this patch goes online, Zerg will be by far the worst race. It will be even harder to defend 2Base Immortal Sentry all in, you can´t kill warprismas (with speeed upgrade), dts and ghost cloaking will be so strong ( Ghost just snipe 5 Overseers so fast and cant be attacked after). It is so silly to nerf Zerg that hard, especially after Zerg doesnt even have a real advantage against Protoss.


Just lost all credibility.

Immortal/Sentry is not affected by this change as it hits before infestors. If it hits any later, you can just overrun it with roach/ling anyway. You make more static defense vs warp prisms. DTs not being affected is simply COOL and might just make them a useful unit. The big thing is archons/HTs and the possibility to do feedback drops on an infestor army. At least those are my impressions so far.


Sentry cannot be fungalled means 2 base infestor( which was supposed to counter the Parting Immortal build) is now useless.


And why exactly would I ever immortal all in against 2 base infestor? The immortal all in is supposed to work because of the greedy gasless third zerg takes in ZvP. Anyone who immortal all ins against a 2 base zerg does deserve to lose. Pretty much any 2 base zerg build beats immortal/sentry.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
eXeElNino
Profile Joined December 2011
Wales51 Posts
November 21 2012 12:55 GMT
#514
Well ghosts still can't get to any infestors since the broodlings will be attacking the ghost anyway :/ Maybe I am wrong but its nice to see ideas!
All hail the KING! MKP <3
FakeDeath
Profile Joined January 2011
Malaysia6060 Posts
November 21 2012 12:55 GMT
#515
On November 21 2012 21:54 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 21:51 FakeDeath wrote:
On November 21 2012 21:43 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On November 21 2012 21:31 ekus wrote:
Wtf? If this patch goes online, Zerg will be by far the worst race. It will be even harder to defend 2Base Immortal Sentry all in, you can´t kill warprismas (with speeed upgrade), dts and ghost cloaking will be so strong ( Ghost just snipe 5 Overseers so fast and cant be attacked after). It is so silly to nerf Zerg that hard, especially after Zerg doesnt even have a real advantage against Protoss.


Just lost all credibility.

Immortal/Sentry is not affected by this change as it hits before infestors. If it hits any later, you can just overrun it with roach/ling anyway. You make more static defense vs warp prisms. DTs not being affected is simply COOL and might just make them a useful unit. The big thing is archons/HTs and the possibility to do feedback drops on an infestor army. At least those are my impressions so far.


Sentry cannot be fungalled means 2 base infestor( which was supposed to counter the Parting Immortal build) is now useless.


And why exactly would I ever immortal all in against 2 base infestor? The immortal all in is supposed to work because of the greedy gasless third zerg takes in ZvP. Anyone who immortal all ins against a 2 base zerg does deserve to lose. Pretty much any 2 base zerg build beats immortal/sentry.


Not if this patch goes through.

2 base mutalisks are probably the only legit answer to the immortal/sentry push.
Play your best
k3n705
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada134 Posts
November 21 2012 12:56 GMT
#516
I don't think the infestor change really addresses anything. It's just minor, general nerf to fungal that strengthens use of psionic units in other areas of the game, but doesn't help with the Zerg deathball. Raven change is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't change the fact that ravens are only good for one SM. After they use it, they're too close to the opposing army and too slow to escape.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
November 21 2012 12:57 GMT
#517
On November 21 2012 21:55 FakeDeath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 21:54 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On November 21 2012 21:51 FakeDeath wrote:
On November 21 2012 21:43 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On November 21 2012 21:31 ekus wrote:
Wtf? If this patch goes online, Zerg will be by far the worst race. It will be even harder to defend 2Base Immortal Sentry all in, you can´t kill warprismas (with speeed upgrade), dts and ghost cloaking will be so strong ( Ghost just snipe 5 Overseers so fast and cant be attacked after). It is so silly to nerf Zerg that hard, especially after Zerg doesnt even have a real advantage against Protoss.


Just lost all credibility.

Immortal/Sentry is not affected by this change as it hits before infestors. If it hits any later, you can just overrun it with roach/ling anyway. You make more static defense vs warp prisms. DTs not being affected is simply COOL and might just make them a useful unit. The big thing is archons/HTs and the possibility to do feedback drops on an infestor army. At least those are my impressions so far.


Sentry cannot be fungalled means 2 base infestor( which was supposed to counter the Parting Immortal build) is now useless.


And why exactly would I ever immortal all in against 2 base infestor? The immortal all in is supposed to work because of the greedy gasless third zerg takes in ZvP. Anyone who immortal all ins against a 2 base zerg does deserve to lose. Pretty much any 2 base zerg build beats immortal/sentry.


Not if this patch goes through.

2 base mutalisks are probably the only legit answer to the immortal/sentry push.


Going immortal all-in against a 2base zerg will still be bad becuase you have to commit to the timing before knowing wether it's mutas or infestors.

Also opening robo vs 2basing zergs is sub optimal already (stargate is safer/more reliable)
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Jetaap
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France4814 Posts
November 21 2012 12:58 GMT
#518
It's a good try, but they'll need to change much more things to make it work (as it is, the infestor nerf is a huge buff to midgame sentry/immortal pushes, and late game it makes neuraling the mothership even more important since you can't use fungal to prevent archons from entering the vortex)
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
November 21 2012 12:59 GMT
#519
On November 21 2012 21:55 FakeDeath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 21:54 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On November 21 2012 21:51 FakeDeath wrote:
On November 21 2012 21:43 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On November 21 2012 21:31 ekus wrote:
Wtf? If this patch goes online, Zerg will be by far the worst race. It will be even harder to defend 2Base Immortal Sentry all in, you can´t kill warprismas (with speeed upgrade), dts and ghost cloaking will be so strong ( Ghost just snipe 5 Overseers so fast and cant be attacked after). It is so silly to nerf Zerg that hard, especially after Zerg doesnt even have a real advantage against Protoss.


Just lost all credibility.

Immortal/Sentry is not affected by this change as it hits before infestors. If it hits any later, you can just overrun it with roach/ling anyway. You make more static defense vs warp prisms. DTs not being affected is simply COOL and might just make them a useful unit. The big thing is archons/HTs and the possibility to do feedback drops on an infestor army. At least those are my impressions so far.


Sentry cannot be fungalled means 2 base infestor( which was supposed to counter the Parting Immortal build) is now useless.


And why exactly would I ever immortal all in against 2 base infestor? The immortal all in is supposed to work because of the greedy gasless third zerg takes in ZvP. Anyone who immortal all ins against a 2 base zerg does deserve to lose. Pretty much any 2 base zerg build beats immortal/sentry.


Not if this patch goes through.

2 base mutalisks are probably the only legit answer to the immortal/sentry push.


I agree, if zerg can't figure out a way to beat it on 3 bases. Not sure how blind sniper's double upgrade build against parting was but it seems worth trying.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
FakeDeath
Profile Joined January 2011
Malaysia6060 Posts
November 21 2012 13:00 GMT
#520
On November 21 2012 21:57 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 21:55 FakeDeath wrote:
On November 21 2012 21:54 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On November 21 2012 21:51 FakeDeath wrote:
On November 21 2012 21:43 DarkLordOlli wrote:
On November 21 2012 21:31 ekus wrote:
Wtf? If this patch goes online, Zerg will be by far the worst race. It will be even harder to defend 2Base Immortal Sentry all in, you can´t kill warprismas (with speeed upgrade), dts and ghost cloaking will be so strong ( Ghost just snipe 5 Overseers so fast and cant be attacked after). It is so silly to nerf Zerg that hard, especially after Zerg doesnt even have a real advantage against Protoss.


Just lost all credibility.

Immortal/Sentry is not affected by this change as it hits before infestors. If it hits any later, you can just overrun it with roach/ling anyway. You make more static defense vs warp prisms. DTs not being affected is simply COOL and might just make them a useful unit. The big thing is archons/HTs and the possibility to do feedback drops on an infestor army. At least those are my impressions so far.


Sentry cannot be fungalled means 2 base infestor( which was supposed to counter the Parting Immortal build) is now useless.


And why exactly would I ever immortal all in against 2 base infestor? The immortal all in is supposed to work because of the greedy gasless third zerg takes in ZvP. Anyone who immortal all ins against a 2 base zerg does deserve to lose. Pretty much any 2 base zerg build beats immortal/sentry.


Not if this patch goes through.

2 base mutalisks are probably the only legit answer to the immortal/sentry push.


Going immortal all-in against a 2base zerg will still be bad becuase you have to commit to the timing before knowing wether it's mutas or infestors.

Also opening robo vs 2basing zergs is sub optimal already (stargate is safer/more reliable)


Yes this is true.
I go 2 base infestor periodically to counter immortal/sentry all-in.

Would 2 base infestor still be viable?
Play your best
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