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I´m okay with this change as a Zerg player and I see a lot of people reacting wrongly in my eyes here. A lot of people are yelling "Oh no! Now this and that can't be stopped with early infestors anymore! Immortal sentry pushes will be OP!" etc. However, what Blizzard wants us Zergs to do, is to find other ways of surviving the mid game instead of a lot of infestors.
What kind of things can we do? Go Spire and harass. Get quick roach burrow movement. Use Nydus Networks or drops. Or (my favorite option) go for Hydralisks. On paper, Hydras should deal quite well with the immortal sentry all-in, it's just hard to get the positioning right. If less dependance on Infestors in the mid game opens up more possibilities and creativity from Zergs I am all for this change.
I still want to throw this out there too though: buff Hydras! That is all.
P.S.: I've noticed some Protoss players complaining that this won't change the fact that they need to hit Zergs pre-Hive to stop the eadly Broodlord-Infestor armies. But haven't you realized that this way Zergs can't be reliant on Infestors in the midgame anymore, and thus their tech will be delayed greatly? We won't be seeing 14 minute Hives anymore I think, it'll be back to the old 18-20 minute Hive.
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On November 21 2012 20:48 THM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 11:31 avilo wrote:On November 21 2012 11:26 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 11:21 avilo wrote:
Raven change does nothing. Blizzard is completely out of the loop or is too stubborn to really listen about why ravens suck. Sure, you don't research it now! Great! Absolutely nothing changes in the amount of time it takes for a raven to accumulate hunter seeker energy.
Nothing also changes in terms of unit interactions/unit compositions. There was never a problem before "oh i don't have seeker missile research!" The problem is the time it takes to accumulate energy to make the raven pay itself off.
Quite disappointing. I know a lot of uninformed people here though will eat this up like candy and think something got better when it has not. One day I am going to compile all of avilo's quotes when it comes to balance changes and line them up. What would we learn? All balance changes have done nothing or hurt terran. At least he is consistent. It's nice to attack someone instead of their valid points. Look at the change objectively. It reduces a 150/150 cost in terms of infrastructure/tech to be set up to get ravens. What does it do to the unit interactions and how does it affect the amount of time it takes to accumulate seeker missile energy to make the raven a more reliable unit? Nothing. Everything stays the same related to ravens in TvZ you just now save 150/150 and still die in the same way. If you think my points are not valid please elaborate. I agree with avilo here, removing the need to upgrade seeker really doesn't change anything in the game itself except a 150/150 cost in the mid/late game(which is negligible), you still would need to wait for them to accumulate energy.
Raven change does nothing except making Terrans experiment with Raven, which may open up endless possibilities in the current metagame regardless of Blizzard's vision. Sometimes changing something stupidly small may have unforeseen consequences by the rupture it creates not in the material conditions (i.e., the game itself), but in the ideational setting (i.e., the metagame).
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On November 21 2012 20:48 Mallement wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 20:45 AbideWithMe wrote:On November 21 2012 20:37 Zerg.Zilla wrote:On November 21 2012 20:32 FinalForm wrote:
remember this is the same company that wanted to give queens 50 starting energy, they don't know what they're doing Pretty much this xD...also how come one unit (Banshee) can be detected with fungal and (DT) another clocked unit can't... Plus why is Warp Prism considered a psionic unit?!It's a fucking transport building (or ship) and the medivac (plus it heals units)is not? Because Blizzard has no idea what they are doing and are largely inconsistent in lore and classification. Before patch 1.4.3 "psionic" didn't even have any use or significance at all. It was a pure "flavor" attribute. With going for something that radical they have put a lot of problems on their "lore designers". How can you possibly coherently explain that something like a warp prism is not affected by fungal while a colosses and CARRIERS!!!! are. Even more stupid is the following: Why can't a queen be fungaled but all other zerg units aside from infestors can? What makes a queen immune to fungal. I dare anybody to find a coherent explanation for this. But it's all good. As I said this is a pure troll change and won't go live at all. I'm actually happy that they just put it on some balance map and didn't ruin hots beta with it even further. Do you play alot of RPG games?... you seem the type.
No, not at all. But I played quite a bit of Diablo and just finished the WoL campaign again for the like tenth time. Does that count? XD
It is evident that balance is more important than lore but Blizzard goes to show with crap like calling the queen psionic for some stupid reason and then making a change affecting all psionic units that they don't really think everything they do completely through.
This happened before with the Ghost snipe change. Why is snipe suddently supposed to do more damage to queens but no damage to archons where it would actually matter. Why are DTs more prone to snipe than zealots? It doesn't really make sense.
On November 21 2012 20:47 Derrida wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 20:45 AbideWithMe wrote:On November 21 2012 20:37 Zerg.Zilla wrote:On November 21 2012 20:32 FinalForm wrote:
remember this is the same company that wanted to give queens 50 starting energy, they don't know what they're doing Pretty much this xD...also how come one unit (Banshee) can be detected with fungal and (DT) another clocked unit can't... Plus why is Warp Prism considered a psionic unit?!It's a fucking transport building (or ship) and the medivac (plus it heals units)is not? Because Blizzard has no idea what they are doing and are largely inconsistent in lore and classification. Before patch 1.4.3 "psionic" didn't even have any use or significance at all. It was a pure "flavor" attribute. With going for something that radical they have put a lot of problems on their "lore designers". How can you possibly coherently explain that something like a warp prism is not affected by fungal while a colosses and CARRIERS!!!! are. Even more stupid is the following: Why can't a queen be fungaled but all other zerg units aside from infestors can? What makes a queen immune to fungal. I dare anybody to find a coherent explanation for this. But it's all good. As I said this is a pure troll change and won't go live at all. I'm actually happy that they just put it on some balance map and didn't ruin hots beta with it even further. Well, Queen being immune makes sense to me, she being the 'Queen' of the race and all.
Hm. Roach being immune makes sense to me, she being the 'Roach' of the race and all. RIGHT???? XD
Mind you I'm not talking about the Queen of Blades. The queen being the regularly staple unit in SC2 MP it is it has really no right to have such a special feature.
You could argue every Zerg caster is psionic but then that wouldn't fit with the overseer which should be psionic if anything.
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Here's the way I see it
Fungal change. Partially a thumbs-down.
Reasoning:
It's great that fungal growth may no longer affect archons, a unit that already has damage bonuses against every single unit in the Zerg arsenal out of the ideological lack of mechanical units for the Zerg.
However, this is going to greatly imbalance PvZ in favour of Protoss. As STParting already showed, the immortal/sentry all in is already the go-to tactic for Protoss, having achieved something stupid like a 60-0 win rate in PvZ because of it and having very few professionals capable of even countering the push even when they *know* it's coming. Unless they change the Sentry to a non-Psionic unit, this means that the one unit that could unanimously close the timing for the Sentry Immortal all in would suddenly be useless. How are you going to fungal all those sentries and shut them down quick when Sentries are immune to Fungal?
The only other solution would be Mutalisks but a lot of Protosses are quickly discovering that warping in Stalkers is a very powerful option against virtually anything. And with 7 gateways, you can warp in ALL THE STALKERS.
In all seriousness, I think the Fungal change would be good if Medivacs were considered Psionic and Sentries weren't. Because this is going to empower mid and late game Protoss so hard. When a 4-sentry drop cannot be shut down at all because of good forcefields and the inability to fungal the sentries, or when a few key fungals cannot shut down that group of fucking pain-in-the-dick sentries that are forcefielding your ramp whilst the entire protoss army is raping your natural AND main with no resistance whatsoever... it's going to be a bigger fuck-you to the Zerg.
On the plus side, at least it affects DTs and Ghosts, meaning that more mobile detection will actually be mandatory instead of two potentially late game cloaked units being ROFLstomped. One theoretical tactic would be to snipe all the Overseers, cloak ghosts and then let it rip upon the Zerg army.
Plus in terms of TvZ, imagine a macrohard Terran with about 30 marauders and 30+ Ghosts against a ling bane infestor brood lord army?
How would I change it:
I'd change what units are considered Psionic and not Psionic. I'd make Medivacs and Ravens Psionic and remove the Psionic tag from Sentries to balance this out.
Seeker Missile change: HEAVY thumbs down
Reasoning:
It's simply not a good enough change. Seeker Missile is such a useless, underpowered ability that it's shocking that Blizzard hasn't either just scrapped it or actually done something with it. First of all, let's relay some basic facts about splash damage.
Fungal Growth, deals 30 damage (7.5 dps) or 40 to Armored (10 dps) over 4 seconds and ROOTS the enemy. Costs 75 Energy. A single Fungal does 0.46666666667 points of damage per energy consumed per unit. This value doesn't change because you cannot "partially dodge" a fungal. Any unit hit by it is fucked either way.
Psionic Storm, deals 80 damage (20 dps) over 4 seconds. Costs 75 Energy. A single psistorm does 1.0666666667 points of damage per energy consumed per unit. This value does fluctuate depending on how well your opponent micros and partially dodges storm. This still makes Psionic Storm the most efficient damage dealing spell by far. Even if you dodge over 50% of it, it will deal about the same damage as a Fungal Growth.
And now to the turd known as Seeker Missile. Based on this chart ripped straight from Liquipedia., it does 100 damage right in its epicentre, 50 damage near the epicentre and 25 damage about 1.5 Range away from the epicentre. To call Seeker Missile a shitty ability is an understatement.
Seeker Missile costs 125 Energy. This means that right in its epicentre it only deals 0.8 damage per energy consumed. Plus it will only hit a large amount of units due to idiotic micro, let's say if you clump up mutalisks. it won't even one-shot them! Even from a range that is literally dry-humping the exact pinpoint of the explosion, Seeker Missile will still only deal 0.4 damage per energy point. And when you go further from that? It's like comparing a nine inch schlong to an amputated penis.
And what if I were to tell you that some fast units can outright dodge it and make your 125 Energy useless? Or that the ability has a minuscule 5 Range compared to Fungal Growth's 9, Feedback's 9, and Psionic Storm's 9? Meaning that you can actually get hard-countered by fungal spam and not land a SINGLE Seeker Missile upon Infestors? Or that one feedback can INSTAGIB a Raven?
How would I change it:
I would consider two options, either
1. A gigantic buff to Seeker Missile, including the following patch changes:
- Cost decreased to 75 Energy, from 125 Energy.
- No upgrade required to use.
- The damage of the ability being changed to deal 100 damage to its target and 40 damage as splash damage in a similar radius to Fungal Growth/Psionic Storm. Of course it would be lower because Terran have higher
- The speed of the projectile has been increased so it can no longer be dodged but rather gives the opponent time to react so that they can spread units out.
- The range increased to 9, from 5.
or 2. Remove Seeker Missile and give Ravens a Brood War ability.... Irradiate
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On November 21 2012 20:45 Mallement wrote:
Still think that fungal should reveal invis units, but dont affect them.. otherwise I think it will be a feedback/snipe overseers game...
Welcome to the world of protoss against terrans in lategame where they always scan and snipe your observers and kill the rest with cloaked ghosts :-P
Somehow we managed to survive with the worst detection abilities in the game too...
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I would like to see a mutalisk buff, and an infestor nerf. Perhaps making them a bit more viable in ZvT; but at the same time not increasing their efficiency in ZvP.
If they're going to commit to this psionic change, they really should remove the psionic label from sentries and warp prisms. How is a zerg supposed to catch warp prisms in the lategame? Speedprisms already tear zerg apart, even with fungal being able to catch them.
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On November 21 2012 20:50 Derrida wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 20:48 THM wrote:On November 21 2012 11:31 avilo wrote:On November 21 2012 11:26 Plansix wrote:On November 21 2012 11:21 avilo wrote:
Raven change does nothing. Blizzard is completely out of the loop or is too stubborn to really listen about why ravens suck. Sure, you don't research it now! Great! Absolutely nothing changes in the amount of time it takes for a raven to accumulate hunter seeker energy.
Nothing also changes in terms of unit interactions/unit compositions. There was never a problem before "oh i don't have seeker missile research!" The problem is the time it takes to accumulate energy to make the raven pay itself off.
Quite disappointing. I know a lot of uninformed people here though will eat this up like candy and think something got better when it has not. One day I am going to compile all of avilo's quotes when it comes to balance changes and line them up. What would we learn? All balance changes have done nothing or hurt terran. At least he is consistent. It's nice to attack someone instead of their valid points. Look at the change objectively. It reduces a 150/150 cost in terms of infrastructure/tech to be set up to get ravens. What does it do to the unit interactions and how does it affect the amount of time it takes to accumulate seeker missile energy to make the raven a more reliable unit? Nothing. Everything stays the same related to ravens in TvZ you just now save 150/150 and still die in the same way. If you think my points are not valid please elaborate. I agree with avilo here, removing the need to upgrade seeker really doesn't change anything in the game itself except a 150/150 cost in the mid/late game(which is negligible), you still would need to wait for them to accumulate energy. Raven change does nothing except making Terrans experiment with Raven, which may open up endless possibilities in the current metagame regardless of Blizzard's vision. Sometimes changing something stupidly small may have unforeseen consequences by the rupture it creates not in the material conditions (i.e., the game itself), but in the ideational setting (i.e., the metagame).
do you think ravens have gone untested for 2 1/2 years now?
i mean don't get me wrong, i love the raven in some matchups and situations, but its hardly ever because of HSM and thats not because HSM is bad per se, its just way too expensive and unreliable, making it 150/150 cheaper over the span of a game won't change much tbh
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Austria24422 Posts
I'm so gonna try Pheonix/DT and spam "FOR BISU" in chat.
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On November 21 2012 20:53 AbideWithMe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 20:48 Mallement wrote:On November 21 2012 20:45 AbideWithMe wrote:On November 21 2012 20:37 Zerg.Zilla wrote:On November 21 2012 20:32 FinalForm wrote:
remember this is the same company that wanted to give queens 50 starting energy, they don't know what they're doing Pretty much this xD...also how come one unit (Banshee) can be detected with fungal and (DT) another clocked unit can't... Plus why is Warp Prism considered a psionic unit?!It's a fucking transport building (or ship) and the medivac (plus it heals units)is not? Because Blizzard has no idea what they are doing and are largely inconsistent in lore and classification. Before patch 1.4.3 "psionic" didn't even have any use or significance at all. It was a pure "flavor" attribute. With going for something that radical they have put a lot of problems on their "lore designers". How can you possibly coherently explain that something like a warp prism is not affected by fungal while a colosses and CARRIERS!!!! are. Even more stupid is the following: Why can't a queen be fungaled but all other zerg units aside from infestors can? What makes a queen immune to fungal. I dare anybody to find a coherent explanation for this. But it's all good. As I said this is a pure troll change and won't go live at all. I'm actually happy that they just put it on some balance map and didn't ruin hots beta with it even further. Do you play alot of RPG games?... you seem the type. No, not at all. But I played quite a bit of Diablo and just finished the WoL campaign again for the like tenth time. Does that count? XD It is evident that balance is more important than lore but Blizzard goes to show with crap like calling the queen psionic for some stupid reason and then making a change affecting all psionic units that they don't really think everything they do completely through. This happened before with the Ghost snipe change. Why is snipe suddently supposed to do more damage to queens but no damage to archons where it would actually matter. Why are DTs more prone to snipe than zealots? It doesn't really make sense.
Mainly because multiplayer is multiplayer, as you may have noticed there is no story there is no "and this is why you and dude xyz are here with 6 workers and a base". Shit has to make sense in campaign and that has always been balanced independently, multiplayer is competition so lore is completely irrelevant. If they had to have good lore reasons for every multiplayer change they make this game would be completely imbalanced. Like gimme a good reason why blue flame suddenly does less damage, did terran engineers get worse or the gas price dropped, why protoss apparently forgot about the amulet and void ray speed, why you suddenly have to build a depot to get a wrax or why it takes more overlords to control the same number of roaches.
Multiplayer does not have to make sense within the lore, it has to be balanced first. If there is some fancy reason to make it right lore wise, sure thats great, but it's certainly not a necessity.
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I like the raven change it's a good idea.
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A huge thumbs up for the raven buff, and a humongous thumbs up for the brofestor nerf, because that means we will probably see more ghostsssss
Blizzard getting their balance right, I love it !
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On November 21 2012 20:54 Clbull wrote:
Here's the way I see it
Fungal change. Partially a thumbs-down.
As STParting already showed, the immortal/sentry all in is already the go-to tactic for Protoss, having achieved something stupid like a 60-0 win rate in PvZ because of it and having very few professionals capable of even countering the push even when they *know* it's coming. Unless they change the Sentry to a non-Psionic unit, this means that the one unit that could unanimously close the timing for the Sentry Immortal all in would suddenly be useless. How are you going to fungal all those sentries and shut them down quick when Sentries are immune to Fungal?
Infestors aren't even out when this all-in hits, and if they are the zerg most likely went ling/infestor, which puts the zerg in a great spot.
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I just got done abusing the PvZ changes (Master level vs Master level), might I say they are quite remarkable. I think it allows the Protoss to win the game via sheer skill. There's so many more things you can do late game. This is the first game I've ever felt comfortable playing in the late game versus Zerg, because there were so many options available.
1. Warp Prism harass is so much more viable. With Infestors unable to Fungal Growth Warp Prisms, you can harass Zerg all game long. Skilled players are rewarded by keeping their Warp Prism alive with good multitasking - no more Fungal Growth cheapshots.
2. Speed Prism + Chargelot/High Templar drops in the late game are absolutely stunning. You can get tons of Feedbacks off for free and force a ton of Infestor energy by mass Chargelot doomwarps. Not only this, the obvious fact that Zerg has to focus his attention on these attacks, it allows you to further increase your army's potential in an otherwise vulnerable timing window before Mothership energy or other critical tech/upgrades.
3. Army engagements are a lot easier to manage. High Templar don't feel so vulnerable all of a sudden, and you can actually get critical feedbacks. Zergs will have to improve their army control to guard their Infestors from Feedback. The Mothership can escape from a fight without getting chain FG'ed and killed. Warp Prisms to carry High Templar (think Brood War style, we've even seen some of this from the elite in SC2) to gain superior positioning on the Zerg army is now a viable tactic.
All in all, I think some great changes. PvZ late game is really fun now and comes down more to skill now than just luck. No more 16 minute 3 base shoves every game! Hurray!
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On November 21 2012 21:03 Vapaach wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 20:54 Clbull wrote:
Here's the way I see it
Fungal change. Partially a thumbs-down.
As STParting already showed, the immortal/sentry all in is already the go-to tactic for Protoss, having achieved something stupid like a 60-0 win rate in PvZ because of it and having very few professionals capable of even countering the push even when they *know* it's coming. Unless they change the Sentry to a non-Psionic unit, this means that the one unit that could unanimously close the timing for the Sentry Immortal all in would suddenly be useless. How are you going to fungal all those sentries and shut them down quick when Sentries are immune to Fungal?
Infestors aren't even out when this all-in hits, and if they are the zerg most likely went ling/infestor, which puts the zerg in a great spot.
Ling infestor won't even be an option against this all in. And the Sentry immunity to fungal growth will merely increase the timing window and allow bad Protoss players to pull it off.
Some quick number crunching for you, it takes 5 fungals to kill a Zealot and 4 fungals to kill a Stalker. Sentries are the most fungal-prone military unit in the Protoss arsenal only taking 2 fungals to die. With this change, they can take ∞ fungals and not even take a single point of damage, let alone be rooted.
This change will literally break ladder.
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The infestor nerf is so bad. How on earth should I stop a delayed/3 base immortal sentry allin if i cant fungal sentries?
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Geez, you guys want an acceptable Lore explanation? How about: Fungal Growth isn't just a mindless fungus growing on the units. It's guided by the mental power of the Infestor. Other units with high mental fortitude (Queens included) can psionically fight off this fungal infestation. Problem solved.
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On November 21 2012 21:05 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 21:03 Vapaach wrote:On November 21 2012 20:54 Clbull wrote:
Here's the way I see it
Fungal change. Partially a thumbs-down.
As STParting already showed, the immortal/sentry all in is already the go-to tactic for Protoss, having achieved something stupid like a 60-0 win rate in PvZ because of it and having very few professionals capable of even countering the push even when they *know* it's coming. Unless they change the Sentry to a non-Psionic unit, this means that the one unit that could unanimously close the timing for the Sentry Immortal all in would suddenly be useless. How are you going to fungal all those sentries and shut them down quick when Sentries are immune to Fungal?
Ling infestor won't even be an option against this all in. And the Sentry immunity to fungal growth will merely increase the timing window and allow bad Protoss players to pull it off. Some quick number crunching for you, it takes 5 fungals to kill a Zealot and 4 fungals to kill a Stalker. Sentries are the most fungal-prone military unit in the Protoss arsenal only taking 2 fungals to die. With this change, they can take ∞ fungals and not even take a single point of damage, let alone be rooted. This change will literally break ladder.
I was just saying that if you get infestors at 10 mins or less it basically means that you went ling infestor, because with any other build you wouldn't have the gas. Even with this change, when the zerg has infestors the all-in is basically over. I do agree though that the change promotes this already strong all-in, which doesn't seem very healthy for the metagame.
I don't think it would matter that much that you couldn't kill the sentries to be honest. You could wear down most of the shields and some health of the core army, and clean it up with ling/roach. Claiming hyperboles such as "this change will literally break ladder" aren't really adding up to your credibility in this case. We can't even know if these changes will go through.
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On November 21 2012 20:54 Clbull wrote:Here's the way I see it + Show Spoiler +Fungal change. Partially a thumbs-down.Reasoning: It's great that fungal growth may no longer affect archons, a unit that already has damage bonuses against every single unit in the Zerg arsenal out of the ideological lack of mechanical units for the Zerg. However, this is going to greatly imbalance PvZ in favour of Protoss. As STParting already showed, the immortal/sentry all in is already the go-to tactic for Protoss, having achieved something stupid like a 60-0 win rate in PvZ because of it and having very few professionals capable of even countering the push even when they *know* it's coming. Unless they change the Sentry to a non-Psionic unit, this means that the one unit that could unanimously close the timing for the Sentry Immortal all in would suddenly be useless. How are you going to fungal all those sentries and shut them down quick when Sentries are immune to Fungal? The only other solution would be Mutalisks but a lot of Protosses are quickly discovering that warping in Stalkers is a very powerful option against virtually anything. And with 7 gateways, you can warp in ALL THE STALKERS. In all seriousness, I think the Fungal change would be good if Medivacs were considered Psionic and Sentries weren't. Because this is going to empower mid and late game Protoss so hard. When a 4-sentry drop cannot be shut down at all because of good forcefields and the inability to fungal the sentries, or when a few key fungals cannot shut down that group of fucking pain-in-the-dick sentries that are forcefielding your ramp whilst the entire protoss army is raping your natural AND main with no resistance whatsoever... it's going to be a bigger fuck-you to Zerg. Another big issue is that Dark Templar cannot be fungalled. This means that the Bisu Build or at least some variation of it could finally be theoretically viable if you snipe all the mobile detection. How would I change it: I'd change what units are considered Psionic and not Psionic. I'd make Medivacs and Ravens Psionic and remove the Psionic tag from Sentries to balance this out. Seeker Missile change: HEAVY thumbs downReasoning: It's simply not a good enough change. Seeker Missile is such a useless, underpowered ability that it's shocking that Blizzard hasn't either just scrapped it or actually done something with it. First of all, let's relay some basic facts about splash damage. Fungal Growth, deals 30 damage (7.5 dps) or 40 to Armored (10 dps) over 4 seconds and ROOTS the enemy. Costs 75 Energy. A single Fungal does 0.46666666667 points of damage per energy consumed per unit. This value doesn't change because you cannot "partially dodge" a fungal. Any unit hit by it is fucked either way. Psionic Storm, deals 80 damage (20 dps) over 4 seconds. Costs 75 Energy. A single psistorm does 1.0666666667 points of damage per energy consumed per unit. This value does fluctuate depending on how well your opponent micros and partially dodges storm. This still makes Psionic Storm the most efficient damage dealing spell by far. Even if you dodge over 50% of it, it will deal about the same damage as a Fungal Growth. And now to the piece of shit known as Seeker Missile. Based on this chart ripped straight from Liquipedia., it does 100 damage right in its epicentre, 50 damage near the epicentre and 25 damage about 1.5 Range away from the epicentre. To call Seeker Missile a shitty ability is an understatement. Seeker Missile costs 125 Energy. This means that right in its epicentre it only deals 0.8 damage per energy consumed. Plus it will only hit a large amount of units due to retarded micro, let's say if you clump up mutalisks. it won't even one-shot them! Even from a range that is literally dry-humping the exact pinpoint of the explosion, Seeker Missile will still only deal 0.4 damage per energy point. And when you go further from that? It's like comparing a nine-inch schlong to a two-inch micropenis. And what if I were to tell you that some fast units can outright dodge it and make your 125 Energy fucking useless? Or that the ability has a minuscule 5 Range compared to Fungal Growth's 9, Feedback's 9, and Psionic Storm's 9? Meaning that you can actually get hard-countered by fungal spam and not land a SINGLE Seeker Missile upon Infestors? Or that one feedback can INSTAGIB a Raven? How would I change it: I would consider two options, either 1. A gigantic buff to Seeker Missile, including the following patch changes: - Cost decreased to 75 Energy, from 125 Energy. - No upgrade required to use. - The damage of the ability being changed to deal 100 damage to its target and 40 damage as splash damage in a similar radius to Fungal Growth/Psionic Storm. Of course it would be lower because Terran have higher - The speed of the projectile has been increased so it can no longer be dodged but rather gives the opponent time to react so that they can spread units out. - The range increased to 9, from 5.
No offense but now that you spend so much time on writing this - i don't say EVERYTHING is, but for the most part it's crap - go and play the custom map. Did you even ever lost a game against ravens so that you can say it's bull that ravens can now use hunter seeker without an upgrade? I don't think so.
In my eyes it's too much that the warp prism can't be stopped by fungal but the medivac can. In whatever direction they wanna pull this, both units have to be threated the same because they are both dropping units so its kinda unfair to give one of them an advantage vs fungal.
The other thing you talk about: At the very first moment i thought it might be unfair that sentries are immune to fungals but the more i think about it, it's a good change. If you think about the INfestor and make a list of the units that this one single unit can counter, it's a list that nearly has every single unit in the game on it. This my friend is the shocking truth. Infestors at the current state can counter probrably every army composition in the game and yet you cry because they removed some of the units it hardcounters? Maybe thats just the answer to bullsh*t to stuff where you see a zerg go for nothing but 40 infestors and the other player throws in the craziest unit compositions but always loses to fungal. THink about it and i think most know what i'm talking about if you just watch some of the most recent Leenock games for example. The units is just a joke and sure... zerg will be sad that a unit THAT strong gets nerfed because sure.. it will change the game and zerg will lose more at the beginning... BUT that's just because zerg players HEAVILY relied on this one way too strong unit too much for the last months.
Another thing i wanna say is that you say infestor is the only way to stop sentry/immortal... this my friend tells me how much you actually play the game and it's not very much it seems to me. That's total crap. Even from an observers point of view: Did you actually watched the most recent GSL games or the WCS games with parting involved? Parting lost a ton of games with his push most recently and in nearly all of these games the answer to that push were just better decision making by the zerg and overall just to finally make army before the 11 minute mark (thats what zerg tend to do before that). Zerg who held that push always made army earlier and just intercepted the army on its way to the zerg base to make him use forcefields too early because without FFs the push isn't even scary.
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On November 21 2012 20:57 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 20:53 AbideWithMe wrote:On November 21 2012 20:48 Mallement wrote:On November 21 2012 20:45 AbideWithMe wrote:On November 21 2012 20:37 Zerg.Zilla wrote:On November 21 2012 20:32 FinalForm wrote:
remember this is the same company that wanted to give queens 50 starting energy, they don't know what they're doing Pretty much this xD...also how come one unit (Banshee) can be detected with fungal and (DT) another clocked unit can't... Plus why is Warp Prism considered a psionic unit?!It's a fucking transport building (or ship) and the medivac (plus it heals units)is not? Because Blizzard has no idea what they are doing and are largely inconsistent in lore and classification. Before patch 1.4.3 "psionic" didn't even have any use or significance at all. It was a pure "flavor" attribute. With going for something that radical they have put a lot of problems on their "lore designers". How can you possibly coherently explain that something like a warp prism is not affected by fungal while a colosses and CARRIERS!!!! are. Even more stupid is the following: Why can't a queen be fungaled but all other zerg units aside from infestors can? What makes a queen immune to fungal. I dare anybody to find a coherent explanation for this. But it's all good. As I said this is a pure troll change and won't go live at all. I'm actually happy that they just put it on some balance map and didn't ruin hots beta with it even further. Do you play alot of RPG games?... you seem the type. No, not at all. But I played quite a bit of Diablo and just finished the WoL campaign again for the like tenth time. Does that count? XD It is evident that balance is more important than lore but Blizzard goes to show with crap like calling the queen psionic for some stupid reason and then making a change affecting all psionic units that they don't really think everything they do completely through. This happened before with the Ghost snipe change. Why is snipe suddently supposed to do more damage to queens but no damage to archons where it would actually matter. Why are DTs more prone to snipe than zealots? It doesn't really make sense. Mainly because multiplayer is multiplayer, as you may have noticed there is no story there is no "and this is why you and dude xyz are here with 6 workers and a base". Shit has to make sense in campaign and that has always been balanced independently, multiplayer is competition so lore is completely irrelevant. If they had to have good lore reasons for every multiplayer change they make this game would be completely imbalanced. Like gimme a good reason why blue flame suddenly does less damage, did terran engineers get worse or the gas price dropped, why protoss apparently forgot about the amulet and void ray speed, why you suddenly have to build a depot to get a wrax or why it takes more overlords to control the same number of roaches. Multiplayer does not have to make sense within the lore, it has to be balanced first. If there is some fancy reason to make it right lore wise, sure thats great, but it's certainly not a necessity.
The changes you are talking about are not in conflict with coherence though.
Some units being affected by certain attributes at one point of the game which don't make any sense are not only incoherent lorewise but also incoherent in a balancing fashion.
DTs and Queens being prone to snipe has nothing to do with balance but is a negative side effect of Blizzards approach to balance ghost snipe versus casters. DTs and Queens were not designed to be psionic in order for them to be sniped but because of lore and some incoherent classification approach from Blizzard.
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On November 21 2012 21:08 Vapaach wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 21:05 Clbull wrote:On November 21 2012 21:03 Vapaach wrote:On November 21 2012 20:54 Clbull wrote:
Here's the way I see it
Fungal change. Partially a thumbs-down.
As STParting already showed, the immortal/sentry all in is already the go-to tactic for Protoss, having achieved something stupid like a 60-0 win rate in PvZ because of it and having very few professionals capable of even countering the push even when they *know* it's coming. Unless they change the Sentry to a non-Psionic unit, this means that the one unit that could unanimously close the timing for the Sentry Immortal all in would suddenly be useless. How are you going to fungal all those sentries and shut them down quick when Sentries are immune to Fungal?
Ling infestor won't even be an option against this all in. And the Sentry immunity to fungal growth will merely increase the timing window and allow bad Protoss players to pull it off. Some quick number crunching for you, it takes 5 fungals to kill a Zealot and 4 fungals to kill a Stalker. Sentries are the most fungal-prone military unit in the Protoss arsenal only taking 2 fungals to die. With this change, they can take ∞ fungals and not even take a single point of damage, let alone be rooted. This change will literally break ladder. I was just saying that if you get infestors at 10 mins or less it basically means that you went ling infestor, because with any other build you wouldn't have the gas. Even with this change, when the zerg has infestors the all-in is basically over. I do agree though that the change promotes this already strong all-in, which doesn't seem very healthy for the metagame. I don't think it would matter that much that you couldn't kill the sentries to be honest. You could wear down most of the shields and some health of the core army, and clean it up with ling/roach. Claiming hyperboles such as "this change will literally break ladder" aren't really adding up to your credibility in this case. We can't even know if these changes will go through.
Which leads to another huge counterargument. If you spot infestors, you can merely just use defensive forcefields to outright prevent ling attacks, warp in 7 more sentries meaning 7 more immediately-available forcefields, and 7 more fungal-immune units. Eventually, because you've delayed Roach production so hard, getting roaches out won't even matter anymore due to the 20+ sentries you have.
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EPT
