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1- Seems legit as the most powerful things from fungal is the root effect
2- So 2 fungals only get a clump of marines to 1 hp... useless
3- Fungal main role is to deal with a lot of units at the same time so this change would pretty much kill that
4- If we are gonna remove infestor energy, might as well remove all energy upgrades in the game. Ghosts cant keep it if templar and festor cant have it
5- Mothership is the only unit that should be immune to neural. If you make it so massive cant get neuraled, might as well remove the spell sompletly as noone EVER uses it on tanks/immortals as it is useless, dangerous and will not change anything in the battle.
6- Yes. 2 supply for the best unit in the game is wayyyyy to cheap.
7- Sure, im curious to see how this would work out.
8- Nope, unless it is very VERY slow, i dont see people able to dodge it anyway in a tense battle. Try splitting your marines during the 0.5 seconds of the fungal travel and see what I mean. You wont dodge shit unless you are Flash.
9- Completly kills zergling/infestors strategy, so no. Big nono here.
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Change fungal only to air and massive and make that stackable:
- vs air 75% slow
- vs massive 75% slow
- vs massive air 50% slow
- vs everything else immobilize
3 supply infestor
(Remove/ replace infested terrans)
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As far as I know, this is not how Blizzard works. WE give the feedback, THEY come up with the changes and tweaks. This thread may or may not be pointless, but please go on. We definitely need more threads about infestors.
On November 08 2012 23:59 budar wrote:
I'm a Zerg player but I'll try to be as unbiased as possible. Nerfing the infestor needs to be done very carefully because of one fact that doesn't get mentioned enough: the infestor is the core unit of the Zerg race. Yes, you read that right. The thing is, the core unit of a race (from what we know from past RTS experience) absolutely must be able to attack both ground and air. Since hydras are very specialized (and awful) units, they are not an option. Infestors can "attack" both ground and air with both fungal and IT.
That said, some of these suggestions are OK, but taking even a small number of them at the same time will in my opinion be a major overnerf. What I'd like to see is a more elaborate change to zerg as a whole that would include the infestor change as well. As that will not happen before HotS, it's pretty pointless to change anything now.
This man is right.
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On November 09 2012 02:45 PauseBreak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:21 D4V3Z02 wrote:On November 09 2012 01:50 PauseBreak wrote:On November 09 2012 01:48 Narw wrote:
If infestors are changed (those big impact nerfs) without significant buffs to zerg tier 2 to compensate you might as well remove Zerg race from game. Zerg units are NOT weak. I'm not sure how this crap got spread around. Last time I checked, Ling/Bane/Muta was ripping games apart. Those aren't even T3 units. 200 supply ling bane muta cant even kill 200 supply bio mech, so what would happen to protoss deathball? You dont want to change fungal you want to remove zerg from the game. This is false and is an opinion. Please show us all facts on your statement.
You actually just have to start a unit tester. Ranged units always fight more effiecient in a critical number. Why didnt you make your homework sir?Where are your "facts"? (pretty funny u are using that term since starcraft isnt a science, lol) And mobillity is also not a factor since Terran can split their Bio Mech balls up if enough supply and defend and still kill the zerg, because Marine Tank IS so efficient. QXC mentioned it also in some podcast and its actually common knowledge when you play TvZ. Also zergs cant just smash terrans before that happens, because terran is always stronger in defending due to planetarys, wall ins and bunkers.
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Gonna repost what I suggested in another thread.
I think infestors should have their model size reduced. The way zergs are able to just ball them up without fear of EMP/splash is kinda sad compared to the way ghosts and HTs are. It encourages spreading, and somewhat buffs EMP for terran by letting it hit a higher number of infestors per cast. One EMP can ruin a protoss army if he doesn't split his HTs. Clumped up Ghosts can get destroyed by colossus. It should be the same for zerg with infestors.
Poll: Reduce infestor model sizeYes (20) 57% No (15) 43% 35 total votes Your vote: Reduce infestor model size (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Another idea of mine would be to reduce their off-creep movespeed.
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On November 08 2012 19:49 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 19:47 Mandalor wrote:On November 08 2012 19:44 Tsubbi wrote:On November 08 2012 19:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On November 08 2012 19:30 Tsubbi wrote:
why was balance talk like this always frowned upon, but now that zerg is doing better for the first time in wol lifetime even mods jump in on every thread and support things like this?
also lr threads are just insane lately, so much balance whine and almost no bans
korean winrates are still pretty close to 50% and its nowhere near as bad as terran domination in the last 2 years So far in GSL, TvZ is 32.6% (14W / 29L), but then again it's a small sample. ofc its lopsided this season, but then again its the first season EVER that zerg has the most players in ro16 and the second time ever that zerg is not the least represented race in ro16 also last month korean tlpd shows a 60% winrate favoring terran in tvz it just seems that especially terrans are so used to dominating especially in korea that being below 50% for even just a month is unacceptable pvz whine especially is just crazy, protoss had higher pvz winrates in korea in every month so far of 2012 except april Look at HOW those PvZ were won. You'll see a ton of 2-base-allins and veeeery few lategame wins. Protoss basically HAS to allin to really have a good shot. thats just not true also balance is about winrates, your complaining about design basically your saying protoss wins more but their wins should also be prettier
This is an incorrect way of thinking.
If I win 100 games and lose 100 games in PvZ, the game is balanced?
What if all 100 games I won were before the 11 minute mark, and all 100 losses were after the 11 minute mark? Would that not suggest there is a problem? We, as a community, have accepted that greedy 3 hatch/3 CC/3 Nexus in the first 5 minutes should be standard... and that is wrong. It's an economic cheese opening.
Ultimately, the fix to Infestors is getting rid of the upgrade for the energy. During that upgrade, Zergs can get another 8-10 drones and then on the next wave of larvae, pop down 6-8 infestors. If you switched it around and forced the zerg to go 6-8 Infestors first so they build up energy, that would balance the game more imo..
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Wouldn't be better to tone down infestors and buff Hidralisks to the point they are a core zerg unit in every match up instead ?
I am thinking on hidra's cost and mobility outside creep like the bigger issues.
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On November 09 2012 03:07 Godwrath wrote:
Wouldn't be better to tone down infestors and buff Hidralisks to the point they are a core zerg unit ?
I am thinking on hidra's cost and mobility outside creep like the bigger issues.
I love that thought too (especially the gas costs are high for a mobile "base racy" unit). The problem is no one ever would build broodlords since they would even die to blink stalker colossus without fungal snaring stalkers. And they are supposed to be stronger since they are higher tech, less mobile, gas heavy and more expensive.
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On November 09 2012 03:10 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 03:07 Godwrath wrote:
Wouldn't be better to tone down infestors and buff Hidralisks to the point they are a core zerg unit ?
I am thinking on hidra's cost and mobility outside creep like the bigger issues. I love that thought too (especially the gas costs are high for a mobile "base racy" unit). The problem is no one ever would build broodlords since they would even die to blink stalker colossus without fungal snaring stalkers.
Erhm... not being core doesn't mean you shouldn't have a few infestors on your lategame composition.
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I think 3 supply infestor, slow instead of immobilize and if they dont change that then make it so fungal cant kill. That way infestors couldnt catch a group of 50 marines or banshees, pheonix, zealots ect and fungal them all down without actually risking some units.
also no parasite on mothership... although Im not sure how zerg would beat mass mech thor banshee hellion viking without neural affecting thors... its hard to survive to that point, but once you hit that critical mass of thors its very hard for a zerg to beat it even with broodlord infestor.
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one of the biggest things with the infestor (or well, BL-infestor) is that both broodlings and infested terrans cost 0 supply yet carry upgrades. I do not understand why zerg gets an infinite stream of 3-3 units beyond the 200 supply cap. If ITs and broodlings were 0-0, they would still be strong, but it wouldn't feel as much like zerg just doesn't have a supply cap.
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imo; either change the root to a slow, 30-50%.
OR keep the root and reduce (if not completely remove) the damage
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On November 09 2012 03:17 Trund wrote:
imo; either change the root to a slow, 30-50%.
OR keep the root and reduce (if not completely remove) the damage
What? Surely you're not serious.
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On November 09 2012 02:59 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:45 PauseBreak wrote:On November 09 2012 02:21 D4V3Z02 wrote:On November 09 2012 01:50 PauseBreak wrote:On November 09 2012 01:48 Narw wrote:
If infestors are changed (those big impact nerfs) without significant buffs to zerg tier 2 to compensate you might as well remove Zerg race from game. Zerg units are NOT weak. I'm not sure how this crap got spread around. Last time I checked, Ling/Bane/Muta was ripping games apart. Those aren't even T3 units. 200 supply ling bane muta cant even kill 200 supply bio mech, so what would happen to protoss deathball? You dont want to change fungal you want to remove zerg from the game. This is false and is an opinion. Please show us all facts on your statement. You actually just have to start a unit tester. Ranged units always fight more effiecient in a critical number. Why didnt you make your homework sir?Where are your "facts"? (pretty funny u are using that term since starcraft isnt a science, lol) And mobillity is also not a factor since Terran can split their Bio Mech balls up if enough supply and defend and still kill the zerg, because Marine Tank IS so efficient. QXC mentioned it also in some podcast and its actually common knowledge when you play TvZ. Also zergs cant just smash terrans before that happens, because terran is always stronger in defending due to planetarys, wall ins and bunkers.
Units tester doesn't tell the whole story. Zergs might have "weaker" units (which is very arguable since cracklings can break bio-tank lines -.-), but keep in mind that zergs have better macro mechanics (mass production, easy expansion). If zergs have equal cost-eficient units and on top of that better macro mechanics, then something is broken.
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On November 09 2012 03:14 Darpa wrote:
I think 3 supply infestor, slow instead of immobilize and if they dont change that then make it so fungal cant kill. That way infestors couldnt catch a group of 50 marines or banshees, pheonix, zealots ect and fungal them all down without actually risking some units.
also no parasite on mothership... although Im not sure how zerg would beat mass mech thor banshee hellion viking without neural affecting thors... its hard to survive to that point, but once you hit that critical mass of thors its very hard for a zerg to beat it even with broodlord infestor.
You don't make Thors en masse to deal with BLs because high BLs counts easily win, especially with Queen support (Broodlings preventing some of the Thors from reaching BLs, Transfuse negating the slow damage coming from the Thors, etc.). Fighting high BLs/Corruptors/Infestors counts without Ravens is hopeless.
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I hate to repeat myself again, but no matter how we change the size, supply or cost of the infestor, and change fungal from a root to a slow, it still wouldn't change the utility of the infestor and zerg would still over rely on it. We need to change fungal itself. Repeating what I said earlier my suggested changes to fungal would be:
1. Fungal would create a field where all units within that field and that walk in that field would get a "fungal" status effect
2. This status effect would effectively decrease the attack speed by half, effectively decreasing the dps of those units by half
3. In addition to decreasing the dps by half, it would also make it so that the units would not be able to use their abilities (ie, blink, etc.) for a certain amount of time
At this point it wouldn't matter if the fungal did damage or not, it would essential provide the same utilities that the current infestor does offensively and defensively. It would also decrease the use of deathballs because if the opponent tried to put their units in a deathball the dps of that deathball would essential be halved. This would only decrease the need for having an army filled with infestors, since a small group would be able to provide all the utility you need. After this, THEN we could take a look at strengthening zerg units accordingly, especially anti-air (such as the hydra). We have to accept that a mass aoe slow/root doesn't belong in an rts such a Starcraft 2, especially when that can be complement by free units with large amounts of dps. We have to think of ways that make Starcraft 2 dynamic, not make the undynamic aspects of SC2 worse.
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I'd say just make the damn thing 3 supply. Making fungal a projectile might help ALOT too...
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Would like to see either
Make Fungal Growth not immobilize units but slow their movement & Make infestor 3 supply instead of 2
or
Make infestor 3 supply instead of 2 & Give Infested Terran eggs the same amount of HP as Infested Terran
I definitely think the 3 supply change is needed, and then either a change to ITs or a change to fungal immobility
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What about the idea of giving fungal a cool down?
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On November 09 2012 03:43 VPVanek wrote:
What about the idea of giving fungal a cool down?
Would not change anything when numerous Infestors are on the field.
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EPT
