2nd change: Make that Fungal Growth can't kill units but will damage them until 1 HP remains. It's like the Plague from Brood War but damage is the same as it is.
Poll: Make that Fungal Growth can't kill units
No (1576)
69%
Yes (720)
31%
2296 total votes
Your vote: Make that Fungal Growth can't kill units
9th change: Fungal Growth can affect your own units like Psyonic Storm/Hunter Seeker Missle or Plague from BW. So you will target enemy units more accurate.
Poll: Fungal Growth can affect your own units
No (1205)
58%
Yes (890)
42%
2095 total votes
Your vote: Fungal Growth can affect your own units
I think they should replace fungal with another spell. Give us some PLAGUUU or somethng, It just has to be a spell that you can avoid by in-battle micro and not just the way you engage.
Make infested Terrans cost 1 supply, reduce damage of fungal growth, make it a slow, but make it similar to corruption making the unit take extra damage, even eliminate the damage of fungal growth and make it cause attacks received deal double damage? Makes infesters not as massable.
Get rid of Fungal. Find something else. Hots is the occasion to redesign some things. The spell is interesting. In general I'm against anything that remove control from the player. That include Fungal, forcefield, concussive and else.
Change infested terran egg to light armor and give it same amount of hp as infested terran intself instead of 100, so its actually usefull to focus eggs before they spawn.
Make the infestor size smaller so I can emp / 8 of them with 1 EMP instead of 3.
just make it so fungal can't be applied to targets already fungaled, so it takes a bit more skill and timing to use without drastically reducing its power
On November 08 2012 18:42 Kupon3ss wrote: just make it so fungal can't be applied to targets already fungaled, so it takes a bit more skill and timing to use without drastically reducing its power
Still changes nothing at pro level.
I wish Blizz'd bring back the idea they had to make FG projectile-based and thus dodgeable by micro/predicting the opponent's movement, giving a lot to do and think about to both sides.
Also this would buff Ravens - a unit in desperate need of that - indirectly, by making PDD counter FG.
Edit : also, maybe bring back NP 9 range but not on Massive/air/mechanical/whatever ?
I didn't see this option but I would like to see fungal be a projectile, instead of instant it might require some skill. Also along with 50-70% slow instead of immobilize on units.
On November 08 2012 18:38 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Infested terrans 0.5 supply, make fungal a slow, no neural parasiting massive units.
I actually really like the idea of IT having .5 supply. I just lost a game 200/200 where I just got destroyed to BL mass infestor where IT massed the screen (high masters vs high masters). My ending comments in the game was, "gee, how do you win 300 supply vs 200 supply...you can't." Although be it quasi bm, it is the truth. They carry upgrades and they are not supply....only expense to Zerg is energy. Quite unfair if you ask me...
But in my opinion the amount of infestors should be reduced. Don't reduce the supply but make them more costly to make and reduce abilities. You dont see people making mass ravens because they cost 100/200. Same should apply to zerg... why not cost the same as a ghost? What do people use ghosts other than emp (rarely is snipe used except some in TvP? Yet ghost costs far more than infestors and die much easier b/c they cant root.
On November 08 2012 18:43 Nisyax wrote: And what exactly would the purpose of neural be when you can't neural massive units anymore?
Raven, siege tank, high templar, immortal.
Yes true, but I really doubt on how many people are actually going to get neural if those are the options.
- Safer to fungal Ravens / HT. Neural a storm isn't the best thing vs. Protoss (preventing one or feedback could) - Immortals not enough value late game (for toss to have them), neural comes too late for early pushes - Tanks, barely see any of them neural parasited, the moment you can get in range of them the army will most likely be cleaned up already + most people will focus target infestors with their tanks. Seems too high risk too low reward to invest in that.
It will be one of those rarely seen things if I theorize about it, I could be wrong however.
-The fungal becomes a projectile -Affect ground units only -Deals no damage but roots/-armor -Deals damage but slows -Fungals can affect your own units i.e. just like plague from BW -Infestors are slow -Unit size decreased -Cant burrow move or requires research for burrow move -Higher energy cost for fungal or Infested Terrans -Infested Terrans dont share same upgrade or cost supply -Fungal range or aoe nerf.
On November 08 2012 18:56 YyapSsap wrote: Basically..
-The fungal becomes a projectile -Affect ground units only -Deals no damage but roots/-armor -Deals damage but slows -Fungals can affect your own units i.e. just like plague from BW -Infestors are slow -Unit size decreased -Cant burrow move or requires research for burrow move -Higher energy cost for fungal or Infested Terrans -Infested Terrans dont share same upgrade or cost supply -Fungal range or aoe nerf.
Pick and choose the best combination(s).
Agree. These are all options. I like the concept of defiler and plague the best. Also, if i recall from bw, the upgrade for plague was 200/200. What I want is for Zerg to consider and/or invest in infestors before they blindly make 20 without even looking at the state of game. Meaning, "o gee, my opponent went mech, i better not go infestors I need to go xyz..." Instead infestor beats all...bio, mech, protoss ball (missed vortex or NP) etc. No game should have one unit that can beat everything, but thanks blizzard, you managed to do it!
Killing micro by grounding the units has always been my biggest gripe. Reduce movement by 50 or even 75% but at least give us a chance to position ourselves better. When I get fungeled I immediately think "Well, that unit pack is as good as gone." and proceed to just use the next one. It's ridiculous that it binds you to 1 single place for 4s.
Changing fungal into plague wouldn't be good either, can't explain why, but it should kill. The infestor energy nerf would accomplish nothing IMO. Neural Parasite.... I don't want it to work on Mommaship, but thors/bcs/carriers/collossi seem like fair game to me.
Making infested terrans either .5 supply (or even 1 whole supply) or making infestors cost 3 supply would be the best change IMO. Spell is way too powerful for 25 mana and profits immensively from upgrades.
edit: up top I also like the idea of fungal providing -armor instead of damage. Could work like Dazzle's ulti in Dota2 Or a plague that just gives -armor, but it would obviously have to last a bit longer than now... or the units affected would have to regain armor over time instead of instantly.
Make fungal like nukes that root instead of doing massive damage: rooting will only activate after a few seconds so it can be evaded and use some animation to indicate where the rooting will take place.
On November 08 2012 18:38 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Infested terrans 0.5 supply, make fungal a slow, no neural parasiting massive units.
I actually really like the idea of IT having .5 supply. I just lost a game 200/200 where I just got destroyed to BL mass infestor where IT massed the screen (high masters vs high masters). My ending comments in the game was, "gee, how do you win 300 supply vs 200 supply...you can't." Although be it quasi bm, it is the truth. They carry upgrades and they are not supply....only expense to Zerg is energy. Quite unfair if you ask me...
But in my opinion the amount of infestors should be reduced. Don't reduce the supply but make them more costly to make and reduce abilities. You dont see people making mass ravens because they cost 100/200. Same should apply to zerg... why not cost the same as a ghost? What do people use ghosts other than emp (rarely is snipe used except some in TvP? Yet ghost costs far more than infestors and die much easier b/c they cant root.
That's the main problem with zergs, when they're maxed out, they still have a lot of units that take no supply: IT's, spine crawlers, broodlings and soon locusts. Who would've thought that so many non-supply units would make the game worse in so many ways ... definitely not blizzard. Guardians, defilers and lurkers have been so poorly replaced T.T
Zerg needs free supply because 200 200 zergs of only supply-units just get raped by 200 200 protoss or 200 200 terran. Dont forgot this.
The problem with IT is not the fact that they are supply-free. It's that with 25 infestors, its 200 infested terran that can be created in the worst case. And 25 infestors is only 50 supply, 1/3 on the zerg army. A 3 supply infestor would be : 16 infestors for 50 supply. Only 128 infested terrans maximum. For 30 supply of infestors, only 10 infestors. 80 infested terran maximum. Way better.
why was balance talk like this always frowned upon, but now that zerg is doing better for the first time in wol lifetime even mods jump in on every thread and support things like this?
also lr threads are just insane lately, so much balance whine and almost no bans
korean winrates are still pretty close to 50% and its nowhere near as bad as terran domination in the last 2 years
On November 08 2012 19:30 Tsubbi wrote: why was balance talk like this always frowned upon, but now that zerg is doing better for the first time in wol lifetime even mods jump in on every thread and support things like this?
also lr threads are just insane lately, so much balance whine and almost no bans
korean winrates are still pretty close to 50% and its nowhere near as bad as terran domination in the last 2 years
Especially since protoss are figuring ways to beat the infestors/broodlord/corruptor army.
Psi Storms to insta-destroy all ITs. Voidrayz to destroy broodlords. Archons to destroy corruptors trying to snipe void rayz and tank broodlings. Archon toilets to snipe parts of the army.
I like Nazgul's idea the best, but I fear it might be too big of a nerf. Zerg HAS to use infestors in a lot of situations. I've always disliked fungal killing micro completely.
btw, slightly off-topic: I find it funny that none of the pros asked at MLG said anything about the combination of BL/Infestor/Swarm Host. Basically, Blizzard added ANOTHER unit that hinders movement with the swarm host. Late late game you basically cannot ever engage zerg with all the free tiny units and fungal that block your units.
On November 08 2012 19:30 Tsubbi wrote: why was balance talk like this always frowned upon, but now that zerg is doing better for the first time in wol lifetime even mods jump in on every thread and support things like this?
also lr threads are just insane lately, so much balance whine and almost no bans
korean winrates are still pretty close to 50% and its nowhere near as bad as terran domination in the last 2 years
Especially since protoss are figuring ways to beat the infestors/broodlord/corruptor army.
Psi Storms to insta-destroy all ITs. Voidrayz to destroy broodlords. Archons to destroy corruptors trying to snipe void rayz and tank broodlings. Archon toilets to snipe parts of the army.
Whenever I see a PvZ on pro-level, it's either the Protoss going for a 2-base-allin (mostly sentry/immortal) and winning with that or the game goes to lategame where I see protoss losing in like 80% of the games. With a decent % of games won with 2-base-timings and a huge rate of losses in the super late game, the matchup balances out at roughly 50%. I don't think that's the desired outcome tho.
On November 08 2012 19:30 Tsubbi wrote: why was balance talk like this always frowned upon, but now that zerg is doing better for the first time in wol lifetime even mods jump in on every thread and support things like this?
also lr threads are just insane lately, so much balance whine and almost no bans
korean winrates are still pretty close to 50% and its nowhere near as bad as terran domination in the last 2 years
So far in GSL, TvZ is 32.6% (14W / 29L), but then again it's a small sample.
I really like the idea of fungal giving -armor( or even -attack?) It would still be insanely powerful against bio, but not so much against mech. The numbers could be quite high so that you REALLY don't want to fight if fungaled.
My main problem with fungal is that, like said before, you don't have to think about getting it. You just get it because its always good, against everything in every match-up.
In my opinion it clearly shows that FG is too powerful.
EDIT: Maybe it would be interesting to make FG and upgrade and give NP to the infestor at the start. NP isn't used THAT much and would make up for some interesting strats. You also have to choose if you want FG upgrade or energy upgrade first.
On November 08 2012 19:30 Tsubbi wrote: why was balance talk like this always frowned upon, but now that zerg is doing better for the first time in wol lifetime even mods jump in on every thread and support things like this?
also lr threads are just insane lately, so much balance whine and almost no bans
korean winrates are still pretty close to 50% and its nowhere near as bad as terran domination in the last 2 years
So far in GSL, TvZ is 32.6% (14W / 29L), but then again it's a small sample.
ofc its lopsided this season, but then again its the first season EVER that zerg has the most players in ro16 and the second time ever that zerg is not the least represented race in ro16
also last month korean tlpd shows a 60% winrate favoring terran in tvz
it just seems that especially terrans are so used to dominating especially in korea that being below 50% for even just a month is unacceptable
pvz whine especially is just crazy, protoss had higher pvz winrates in korea in every month so far of 2012 except april
On November 08 2012 19:30 Tsubbi wrote: why was balance talk like this always frowned upon, but now that zerg is doing better for the first time in wol lifetime even mods jump in on every thread and support things like this?
also lr threads are just insane lately, so much balance whine and almost no bans
korean winrates are still pretty close to 50% and its nowhere near as bad as terran domination in the last 2 years
So far in GSL, TvZ is 32.6% (14W / 29L), but then again it's a small sample.
ofc its lopsided this season, but then again its the first season EVER that zerg has the most players in ro16 and the second time ever that zerg is not the least represented race in ro16
also last month korean tlpd shows a 60% winrate favoring terran in tvz
it just seems that especially terrans are so used to dominating especially in korea that being below 50% for even just a month is unacceptable
pvz whine especially is just crazy, protoss had higher pvz winrates in korea in every month so far of 2012 except april
Look at HOW those PvZ were won. You'll see a ton of 2-base-allins and veeeery few lategame wins. Protoss basically HAS to allin to really have a good shot.
Infested Terran - maybe 30 energy, 2 secs longer in egg and all damage in egg form is still their when they spawn. This spell really really shouldn't be this effective in combat.
Fungal Growth - Slow projectile if still hits air, fast if it hits only ground, slow or stun but diminishing returns on each cast
Neural Parasite - +1 to 2 range, no longer massive. This could maybe be the anti caster spell
On November 08 2012 19:30 Tsubbi wrote: why was balance talk like this always frowned upon, but now that zerg is doing better for the first time in wol lifetime even mods jump in on every thread and support things like this?
also lr threads are just insane lately, so much balance whine and almost no bans
korean winrates are still pretty close to 50% and its nowhere near as bad as terran domination in the last 2 years
So far in GSL, TvZ is 32.6% (14W / 29L), but then again it's a small sample.
ofc its lopsided this season, but then again its the first season EVER that zerg has the most players in ro16 and the second time ever that zerg is not the least represented race in ro16
also last month korean tlpd shows a 60% winrate favoring terran in tvz
it just seems that especially terrans are so used to dominating especially in korea that being below 50% for even just a month is unacceptable
pvz whine especially is just crazy, protoss had higher pvz winrates in korea in every month so far of 2012 except april
Look at HOW those PvZ were won. You'll see a ton of 2-base-allins and veeeery few lategame wins. Protoss basically HAS to allin to really have a good shot.
thats just not true
also balance is about winrates, your complaining about design
basically your saying protoss wins more but their wins should also be prettier
nerfing infestors is tricky because of how crappy/linear the majority of other zerg units are.
I don't think nerfing infestors will work unless zerg gets buffs to other units. The hydra would probably be the best bet as they're already terrible and this buff could allow them to fill an actually useful niche (instead of being really slow anti-air and "good against gateway only units").
- fungal growth changed to slow, with the exception of blink stalkers (i guess silence would also be acceptable) and air units - infested terran eggs changed to same hp as infested terrans themselves
On November 08 2012 19:50 robih wrote: as OP as i consider infestors, you guys would be nerfing them into oblivion
It's TL, it's full of retards, what do you except? The people in the "Designated Balance Whine" thread don't even play this game, they have no idea whats going on most of the time.
One year ago, balancewhining would get you banned, or even perma-banned. Nowadays, it's really fucking OK and everythings cool.. lol
Stun changed to extreme slow and 3 supply instead of 2 are sensible nerfs imo, the rest I'd rather not see
regardless, the only thing I think really should be changed is some sort of casting cooldown on ITs, doesnt have to be long, but even 1 second would be a big difference
Just change ITs. I dont mind fungal (that is not to say making it a slow would be a bad change, but the core problem isnt that its a root). Wrote this in the other thread:
On November 08 2012 09:59 Kreb wrote: I dont really get why the focus of the infestor-whine seem to be fungal. Fungal is fine if you ask me. People say its anti-micro, and while that holds some truth i think fungal still creates very interesting scenarios vs terran bio and maybe also to a lesser extent vs blink stalkers and vs roaches in roach/infestor battles.
The only problem I see with the infestor is that its too versatile, and thereby pretty much impossible to overmake. If a T makes 100 marines he'll lose to colossi or fungal/banelings. If a Z makes 50 roaches he'll lose to immortals, marauders and tanks. Etc. The problem is Infestors can both be the support and the core part of your army. Or, the infestors arent the core, the infested Terrans are. ITs are the damage soakers, the anti air (vs spread anti air at least, fungal vs clumped), high damage dealers and also shield the important units (infestors + BLs) from being attacked. And you cant make too many of them. If you have 30 infestors, adding another 5 will always be useful because it means more ITs.
And thats the problem. To me, a nerf to Infested Terrans seems to be much more reasonable than fungal. Fungal should still have its uses, but you cant make 30 infestors for the purpose of fungaling. And while its fine infestors can use up spare energy to something useful (ravens have turrets, ghosts snipe, templars become archons when they've used their energy) the infested terrans are just too good of an energy dump. Making them cost more energy and/or deal less dmg and/or die faster and/or something else is to me the best step to put infestors back where they should be: a useful support spell caster unit. Not a core army unit.
Edit: As for the suggestions in the OP. I'd like to see fungal tried as a slow, probably quite a strong one.
The change I'd really like to see though is that loss of Infested Egg HP should count towards ITs HP when they spawn (an egg on 10% spawns a Terran on 10%).
Possible addition to that, should that not be enough: Make the egg take more damage, possibly as much as the IT itself to make it easier to burn through a wall of IT eggs, forcing a Z to make "real" units to protect BL/infestors instead of just spamming out 30 eggs and then sit safely behind them.
If you would make it so that it slows units wouldnt it be exactly the same as time warp? Hoping for something better and more exciting than to just copy spells from other races
Fungal nerf radius smaller interceptors immune to FG
Fungal no longer roots AIR units (still does damage/reveal to air). NP cannot target massive units (but can be used while burrowed - becomes more of an anti-caster spell). Hive upgrade requires one of the other Lair tech structures instead of infestation pit. IT egg HP reduction.
On November 08 2012 19:57 Kreb wrote: Just change ITs. I dont mind fungal (that is not to say making it a slow would be a bad change, but the core problem isnt that its a root). Wrote this in the other thread:
On November 08 2012 09:59 Kreb wrote: I dont really get why the focus of the infestor-whine seem to be fungal. Fungal is fine if you ask me. People say its anti-micro, and while that holds some truth i think fungal still creates very interesting scenarios vs terran bio and maybe also to a lesser extent vs blink stalkers and vs roaches in roach/infestor battles.
The only problem I see with the infestor is that its too versatile, and thereby pretty much impossible to overmake. If a T makes 100 marines he'll lose to colossi or fungal/banelings. If a Z makes 50 roaches he'll lose to immortals, marauders and tanks. Etc. The problem is Infestors can both be the support and the core part of your army. Or, the infestors arent the core, the infested Terrans are. ITs are the damage soakers, the anti air (vs spread anti air at least, fungal vs clumped), high damage dealers and also shield the important units (infestors + BLs) from being attacked. And you cant make too many of them. If you have 30 infestors, adding another 5 will always be useful because it means more ITs.
And thats the problem. To me, a nerf to Infested Terrans seems to be much more reasonable than fungal. Fungal should still have its uses, but you cant make 30 infestors for the purpose of fungaling. And while its fine infestors can use up spare energy to something useful (ravens have turrets, ghosts snipe, templars become archons when they've used their energy) the infested terrans are just too good of an energy dump. Making them cost more energy and/or deal less dmg and/or die faster and/or something else is to me the best step to put infestors back where they should be: a useful support spell caster unit. Not a core army unit.
funal shouldn't root because it allows more micromanagement.
You have a good point about the ITs though. I think maybe just having a cooldown on spawning the ITs could help, so a full energy infestor can't suddenly cough up 8 ITs at once.
I see the easiest change is to increase infestor supply from 2 to 3. This doesn't impact the midgame but decreases the power of the zerg endgame army. Some of the other changes like decreasing the radius of fungal will impact the zerg midgame and consequently make 2 base all ins in pvz even harder to hold.
I voted for the 3 supply, slow and projectile. I'm against the possibility of neural on the mothership (as well as against the mothership ) but i would like the range of neural increased to its previous value (though its role might overlap with the viper ability to snatch units...)
I don't really think IT is a problem once you have taken out the possibility of having a million of them against rooted units.
On November 08 2012 19:59 y0su wrote: Fungal no longer roots AIR units (still does damage/reveal to air). NP cannot target massive units (but can be used while burrowed - becomes more of an anti-caster spell). Hive upgrade requires one of the other Lair tech structures instead of infestation pit. IT egg HP reduction.
Fungal no longer working against air units was tried in the past, it was reverted almost instantly. You can't deal with banshee with anything other than mutas (which is incredibly restricting in the mid game) including in the late game since corruptors can't chase banshees. And you can't deal with phoenixes at all.
In my opinion the only change that makes sense is slow instead of immobilize. With 50-70% slow split is still possible but the targeted units are slow enough that kiting vs zerg is not possible anymore.
On November 08 2012 19:57 Kreb wrote: Just change ITs. I dont mind fungal (that is not to say making it a slow would be a bad change, but the core problem isnt that its a root). Wrote this in the other thread:
On November 08 2012 09:59 Kreb wrote: I dont really get why the focus of the infestor-whine seem to be fungal. Fungal is fine if you ask me. People say its anti-micro, and while that holds some truth i think fungal still creates very interesting scenarios vs terran bio and maybe also to a lesser extent vs blink stalkers and vs roaches in roach/infestor battles.
The only problem I see with the infestor is that its too versatile, and thereby pretty much impossible to overmake. If a T makes 100 marines he'll lose to colossi or fungal/banelings. If a Z makes 50 roaches he'll lose to immortals, marauders and tanks. Etc. The problem is Infestors can both be the support and the core part of your army. Or, the infestors arent the core, the infested Terrans are. ITs are the damage soakers, the anti air (vs spread anti air at least, fungal vs clumped), high damage dealers and also shield the important units (infestors + BLs) from being attacked. And you cant make too many of them. If you have 30 infestors, adding another 5 will always be useful because it means more ITs.
And thats the problem. To me, a nerf to Infested Terrans seems to be much more reasonable than fungal. Fungal should still have its uses, but you cant make 30 infestors for the purpose of fungaling. And while its fine infestors can use up spare energy to something useful (ravens have turrets, ghosts snipe, templars become archons when they've used their energy) the infested terrans are just too good of an energy dump. Making them cost more energy and/or deal less dmg and/or die faster and/or something else is to me the best step to put infestors back where they should be: a useful support spell caster unit. Not a core army unit.
funal shouldn't root because it allows more micromanagement.
You have a good point about the ITs though. I think maybe just having a cooldown on spawning the ITs could help, so a full energy infestor can't suddenly cough up 8 ITs at once.
Yea removing the root could be a good addition too. But that alone wouldnt discourage people from making 30 infestors, some change to ITs are needed aswell (or instead).
Honestly the rooting is the one thing that makes them OP. You can't approach Infestors due to it and if you get caught with your pants down you are basically going to get chain fungaled to death. It also prevents you from attacking into broodlords with vikings which is even more retarded.
With a few people here talking about Fungal being a projectile, I dug up some old videos from the 1.3 PTR, which imo was when things started snowballing. I think they might give a good idea of what such a change would look like, although obviously the level of play back then was pretty bad and the map pool was even worse.
On November 08 2012 19:30 Tsubbi wrote: why was balance talk like this always frowned upon, but now that zerg is doing better for the first time in wol lifetime even mods jump in on every thread and support things like this?
also lr threads are just insane lately, so much balance whine and almost no bans
korean winrates are still pretty close to 50% and its nowhere near as bad as terran domination in the last 2 years
So far in GSL, TvZ is 32.6% (14W / 29L), but then again it's a small sample.
ofc its lopsided this season, but then again its the first season EVER that zerg has the most players in ro16 and the second time ever that zerg is not the least represented race in ro16
also last month korean tlpd shows a 60% winrate favoring terran in tvz
it just seems that especially terrans are so used to dominating especially in korea that being below 50% for even just a month is unacceptable
pvz whine especially is just crazy, protoss had higher pvz winrates in korea in every month so far of 2012 except april
Look at HOW those PvZ were won. You'll see a ton of 2-base-allins and veeeery few lategame wins. Protoss basically HAS to allin to really have a good shot.
thats just not true
also balance is about winrates, your complaining about design
basically your saying protoss wins more but their wins should also be prettier
I'm saying the game is imbalanced favoring protoss midgame and zerg lategame. How is that design and not balance? Also you seem to misread my posts on purpose. I've never said they should be prettier. I said there should be balance in all phases of the game.
I really really don't like the idea that infested terrans should cost supply, think about if zerg was maxed or like 190/200 supply they couldn't really make us of them. I've always thought when infested terrans were eggs, they should be as vulnerable as the infested terrans themselves, or something like that.
Also the idea of them not benefitting from upgrades is good. OR they could still benefit from upgrades but just have reduced damage/armor.
Remember, there are quite a few cool usages of the ITs which we DONT wanna touch. Some being: - Using a few IT eggs as an initiator in battle against siege tanks. Also to a lessee extent against colossi to make colossi attack lone ITs instead of your core army. Thats cool. - Using IT eggs to make siege tanks splash and kill themselves. Thats cool. - Submarine infestor harass. Either fungaling a mineral line or spawning a bunch of ITs behind it. Thats also cool.
A change to ITs shouldnt nerf any of the above. But it should nerf these: - Attacking a defensively setup opponent with an army of 75% ITs and 25% "real" units. - Repeated spawning of 30 (or whatever) ITs in front of your BL/infestor army as protection. Then just do it again next battle because you have 20+ infestors with almost unlimited amount of energy (= unlimited ITs). These two are not really cool.
In short, ITs should be possible to add as an addition to your real army. And as harassing units. But it should never replace real units. Best way to achieve that without fucking with the cool usages of ITs is imo to make ITs die easier. POssible solutions: - Damage taken on eggs count towads IT HP. - Reduce/remove damage reduction on eggs, making it more viable to kill eggs as they are being spawned.
Either of these, or both, would make the IT spam in battle much less effective, while still not really changing all the cool usages of it.
On November 08 2012 19:30 Tsubbi wrote: why was balance talk like this always frowned upon, but now that zerg is doing better for the first time in wol lifetime even mods jump in on every thread and support things like this?
also lr threads are just insane lately, so much balance whine and almost no bans
korean winrates are still pretty close to 50% and its nowhere near as bad as terran domination in the last 2 years
So far in GSL, TvZ is 32.6% (14W / 29L), but then again it's a small sample.
also last month korean tlpd shows a 60% winrate favoring terran in tvz
This is an outright lie. You do have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.
Last month's TvZ games in Korea according to TLPD:
Soulkey (Z) vs. Maru (T) 2:0 Curious (Z) vs. Maru (T) 2:0 Roro (Z) vs. Hack (T) 1:2 Roro (Z) vs. Happy (T) 2:0 Symbol (Z) vs. Hack (T) 2:0 Sirius (Z) vs. Supernova (T) 0:1 Sirius (Z) vs. Ryung (T) 1:0 Sirius (Z) vs. Flash (T) 0:1 Shine (Z) vs. Byun (T) 1:0 Shine (Z) vs. asd (T) 1:0 Shine (Z) vs. Keen (T) 0:1 DRG (Z) vs. Bomber (T) 1:0 DRG (Z) vs. Yoda (T) 1:0 Bbbong (Z) vs. Hack (T) 1:0 Bbong (Z) vs. alive (T) 0:1 Hyun (Z) vs. alive (T) 0:1 Hyun (Z) vs. MMA (T) 1:0 Hyun (Z) vs. Hack (T) 1:0 Bbong (Z) vs. MMA (T) 0:1 Life (Z) vs. MVP (T) 4:3 Symbol (Z) vs. Gumiho (T) 1:0 Ragnarok (Z) vs. Gumiho (T) 0:1 Ragnarok (Z) vs. asd (T) 1:0 Ragnarok (Z) vs. thebest (T) 1:0 Bbbong (Z) vs. Gumiho (T) 1:2 Sirius (Z) vs. MMA (T) 2:0 Sniper (Z) vs. Keen (T) 2:0 Life (Z) vs. Taeja (T) 3:0 Roro (Z) vs. Ryung (T) 2:0 Hyun (Z) vs. Yoda (T) 2:0 Curious (Z) vs. Keen (T) 1:0 Life (Z) vs. Keen (T) 0:1 Sniper (Z) vs. Bomber (T) 1:0 Symbol (Z) vs. Byun (T) 1:0 Symbol (Z) vs. MKP (T) 1:0 Life (Z) vs. MKP (T) 3:1 Leenock (Z) vs. Taeja (T) 1:3 Symbol (Z) vs. MVP (T) 1:3 Nestea (Z) vs. Sparta (T) 1:2 Bbbong (Z) vs. theStc (T) 2:1 Yugioh (Z) vs. Bogus (T) 1:2
Zerg win 49 Terran win 27
Win rate for Zerg 64,5% (Korea, October - GSL Code S and Code A, GSTL, OSL, Up and Downs)
Where did you get your 60% win rate for Terran from, if I may ask? Or are you just making up random numbers in the hope nobody would go and double check?
infested terrans are fine. they are the only really cool thing about the infestors.
spawning mass eggs on siege lines or in minerals so the tanks shoot the eggs is just a very nice mechanic. they are not imba because you can run away and they don't live very long. the problem is just the root from fungal. and it's a big problem because of how demolishing it can be to small mistakes.
it doesn't really reward good skillful play by the zerg, it just punishes a slight mistake by the opponent. balance aside, it's just a bad mechanic.
The three supply infestor would seriously balance it. The main problem is that Zerg has the ability of having an insanely expensive late game army, because infestors have such high cost per supply. Terran can only really do that if they mass thors and ravens, and that is hard as hell to do and STILL can be beaten by a good Zerg. This way infestors could still be a very large portion of the army, but not be the massed unit they are now.
Make fungal as a missile would be awesome micro-wise. I think Sc2 lacks this kind of micro, everything are just so fast, can't really micro anything. That's probably why most games ends in one fight, damage are so high, and a misplacement of 1 sec can just kill your whole army :-/
On November 08 2012 19:30 Tsubbi wrote: why was balance talk like this always frowned upon, but now that zerg is doing better for the first time in wol lifetime even mods jump in on every thread and support things like this?
also lr threads are just insane lately, so much balance whine and almost no bans
korean winrates are still pretty close to 50% and its nowhere near as bad as terran domination in the last 2 years
So far in GSL, TvZ is 32.6% (14W / 29L), but then again it's a small sample.
also last month korean tlpd shows a 60% winrate favoring terran in tvz
This is an outright lie. You do have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.
Last month's TvZ games in Korea according to TLPD:
Soulkey (Z) vs. Maru (T) 2:0 Curious (Z) vs. Maru (T) 2:0 Roro (Z) vs. Hack (T) 1:2 Roro (Z) vs. Happy (T) 2:0 Symbol (Z) vs. Hack (T) 2:0 Sirius (Z) vs. Supernova (T) 0:1 Sirius (Z) vs. Ryung (T) 1:0 Sirius (Z) vs. Flash (T) 0:1 Shine (Z) vs. Byun (T) 1:0 Shine (Z) vs. asd (T) 1:0 Shine (Z) vs. Keen (T) 0:1 DRG (Z) vs. Bomber (T) 1:0 DRG (Z) vs. Yoda (T) 1:0 Bbbong (Z) vs. Hack (T) 1:0 Bbong (Z) vs. alive (T) 0:1 Hyun (Z) vs. alive (T) 0:1 Hyun (Z) vs. MMA (T) 1:0 Hyun (Z) vs. Hack (T) 1:0 Bbong (Z) vs. MMA (T) 0:1 Life (Z) vs. MVP (T) 4:3 Symbol (Z) vs. Gumiho (T) 1:0 Ragnarok (Z) vs. Gumiho (T) 0:1 Ragnarok (Z) vs. asd (T) 1:0 Ragnarok (Z) vs. thebest (T) 1:0 Bbbong (Z) vs. Gumiho (T) 1:2 Sirius (Z) vs. MMA (T) 2:0 Sniper (Z) vs. Keen (T) 2:0 Life (Z) vs. Taeja (T) 3:0 Roro (Z) vs. Ryung (T) 2:0 Hyun (Z) vs. Yoda (T) 2:0 Curious (Z) vs. Keen (T) 1:0 Life (Z) vs. Keen (T) 0:1 Sniper (Z) vs. Bomber (T) 1:0 Symbol (Z) vs. Byun (T) 1:0 Symbol (Z) vs. MKP (T) 1:0 Life (Z) vs. MKP (T) 3:1 Leenock (Z) vs. Taeja (T) 1:3 Symbol (Z) vs. MVP (T) 1:3 Nestea (Z) vs. Sparta (T) 1:2 Bbbong (Z) vs. theStc (T) 2:1 Yugioh (Z) vs. Bogus (T) 1:2
Zerg win 49 Terran win 27
Win rate for Zerg 64,5% (Korea, October - GSL Code S and Code A, GSTL, OSL, Up and Downs)
Where did you get your 60% win rate for Terran from, if I may ask? Or are you just making up random numbers in the hope nobody would go and double check?
sorry, with last month i meant september where its 32-24 (58%) in favor of terran
I personally think that the Infestor doesn't need a nerf/buff w/e but I do think that other races need something that does properly counter them like the Oracles phase shield f.ex. (although it was removed ._.)
My suggestion would be increase the energy costs of infested terrans and fungals. The ability to produce 2 fungals and two infesteds from a single full energy caster is too strong. IMO increase fungal energy to 125, infested to 50.
1. FG must not affect Air (indisputable) 2. FG must only slow units by 100% 75% 50% 25% every next second. 3. FG must affect friendly units (storm like) 4. NP must not affect Air (indisputable) 5. IT must cost 50 energy 6. IT can not be spawned while burrowed. 7. Burrowed move must be researched.
why are people so adamant on nerfing the infestor? only problem with the actual unit is it's kinda easier to use than to play against.
I'm much more worried about the fact that I get 'all-ined' at 8:00 then 2 minutes earlier zerg is 4 bases with 80 drones, much more worried that if I want to be equal in economy there's creep spread in my mineral line.
My problem is how easy/fast it is to get a SHITTON of infestors, NOT that I have to split/scan vs it Oo
How about instead of infestor nerfing they chill on the queen buffs, on the ferrari overlords and so on?
On November 08 2012 20:36 Roko wrote: I personally think that the Infestor doesn't need a nerf/buff w/e but I do think that other races need something that does properly counter them like the Oracles phase shield f.ex. (although it was removed ._.)
Changes need to be made pre HotS
For terran it could be either - A) EMPs radius is bigger, allowing it to hit 4-6 infestors, instead of 1-3 B) Make infestors smaller so EMPs are more effective.
The problems with ghosts for terrans is they would only be there to EMP, they suck versus broodlord/ultralisk and are just a waste of supply, the difference between ghosts meant to counter HT vs protoss is that even without the EMP, the ghost is really good versus zealots.
On November 08 2012 20:39 n0ise wrote: why are people so adamant on nerfing the infestor? only problem with the actual unit is it's kinda easier to use than to play against.
I'm much more worried about the fact that I get 'all-ined' at 8:00 then 2 minutes earlier zerg is 4 bases with 80 drones, much more worried that if I want to be equal in economy there's creep spread in my mineral line.
My problem is how easy/fast it is to get a SHITTON of infestors, NOT that I have to split/scan vs it Oo
How about instead of infestor nerfing they chill on the queen buffs, on the ferrari overlords and so on?
1. As you say it's much easier to use than defend against. 2. It prevents micro during a battle (yes this is not the only ability that does this, but the worst of them all. 3. It's NEVER a bad idea to get infestors. The more infestors you have the better off you are. Always. No other race works like that with any unit. 4. Fungal is not exciting to watch. Infested terrans are better but also way too good.
On November 08 2012 20:37 Jimbo77 wrote: 1. FG must not affect Air (indisputable) 2. FG must only slow units by 100% 75% 50% 25% every next second. 3. FG must affect friendly units (storm like) 4. NP must not affect Air (indisputable) 5. IT must cost 50 energy 6. IT can not be spawned while burrowed. 7. Burrowed move must be researched.
1. FG need to affect air if we dont want to see only muta vs muta games in ZvZ. 2. Slow is necessary because root is boring. Dunno the numbers. 3. FG no, definetally not. Zergs is a melee oriented race. Fungling is own units would be retarded. 4. And how could zerg NP ravens ? 5. Only 4 IT / infestors ? Are you serious ? 6. How can infestors harass now ? 7. Maybe. Why not.
1) Make Neural Parasite researched by default. Require Zerg to research Spawn Infested Terran and/or Fungal Growth.
2) Disallow Neural Parasite on massive units.
3) Cheapen Neural Parasite to 75 or 50 mana. Give it 9 range again, and/or allow it to be used from underground. (If the latter, disallow spawning infested terrans from underground.)
4) Consider weakening the worst abuses -- chain fungals, and dumping of your entire mana pool on eggs. I want an Infestor to be able to spawn more than one egg at a time, but not eight. Perhaps increase the mana cost to 40, or set a cooldown that triggers after the third IT you throw. (For Fungal, allow fungal'd units to spread out, or perhaps have fungal force units to spread. Suppose it's a projectile that explodes at the target, pushing units away from the blast in addition to its normal effect.)
Really, I wanna see more mind control tentacles and less chain-fungals/egg swarms.
On November 08 2012 20:39 n0ise wrote: why are people so adamant on nerfing the infestor? only problem with the actual unit is it's kinda easier to use than to play against.
I'm much more worried about the fact that I get 'all-ined' at 8:00 then 2 minutes earlier zerg is 4 bases with 80 drones, much more worried that if I want to be equal in economy there's creep spread in my mineral line.
My problem is how easy/fast it is to get a SHITTON of infestors, NOT that I have to split/scan vs it Oo
How about instead of infestor nerfing they chill on the queen buffs, on the ferrari overlords and so on?
3. It's NEVER a bad idea to get infestors. The more infestors you have the better off you are. Always. No other race works like that with any unit. .
In which case is it a bad idea to build marines ? In which case is it a bad idea to build high templars ?
On November 08 2012 20:39 n0ise wrote: why are people so adamant on nerfing the infestor? only problem with the actual unit is it's kinda easier to use than to play against.
I'm much more worried about the fact that I get 'all-ined' at 8:00 then 2 minutes earlier zerg is 4 bases with 80 drones, much more worried that if I want to be equal in economy there's creep spread in my mineral line.
My problem is how easy/fast it is to get a SHITTON of infestors, NOT that I have to split/scan vs it Oo
How about instead of infestor nerfing they chill on the queen buffs, on the ferrari overlords and so on?
1. As you say it's much easier to use than defend against. 2. It prevents micro during a battle (yes this is not the only ability that does this, but the worst of them all. 3. It's NEVER a bad idea to get infestors. The more infestors you have the better off you are. Always. No other race works like that with any unit. 4. Fungal is not exciting to watch. Infested terrans are better but also way too good.
You're P so I can't really disagree with your pov. I have tanks + splits to kinda even it out vs infestors. About you're 3rd point, my original post was related to that... I don't think they're a problem per se, but rather they shouldn't be able to get that many infestors, so easily.
About 4, it could be changed, say give it a projectile (and +radius to balance it?) - it'd be tougher to use, more fun to watch etc.
On November 08 2012 20:39 n0ise wrote: why are people so adamant on nerfing the infestor? only problem with the actual unit is it's kinda easier to use than to play against.
I'm much more worried about the fact that I get 'all-ined' at 8:00 then 2 minutes earlier zerg is 4 bases with 80 drones, much more worried that if I want to be equal in economy there's creep spread in my mineral line.
My problem is how easy/fast it is to get a SHITTON of infestors, NOT that I have to split/scan vs it Oo
How about instead of infestor nerfing they chill on the queen buffs, on the ferrari overlords and so on?
3. It's NEVER a bad idea to get infestors. The more infestors you have the better off you are. Always. No other race works like that with any unit. .
In which case is it a bad idea to build marines ? In which case is it a bad idea to build high templars ?
So biased...
Additional Psi storm or Feedback carries diminishing returns. Infested Terrans and Fungal synergize nicely, by creating a nigh-on unbeatable army and forcing your opponent to engage instead of run.
Marine are usually very strong, but weak at high supply.
On November 08 2012 20:39 n0ise wrote: why are people so adamant on nerfing the infestor? only problem with the actual unit is it's kinda easier to use than to play against.
I'm much more worried about the fact that I get 'all-ined' at 8:00 then 2 minutes earlier zerg is 4 bases with 80 drones, much more worried that if I want to be equal in economy there's creep spread in my mineral line.
My problem is how easy/fast it is to get a SHITTON of infestors, NOT that I have to split/scan vs it Oo
How about instead of infestor nerfing they chill on the queen buffs, on the ferrari overlords and so on?
3. It's NEVER a bad idea to get infestors. The more infestors you have the better off you are. Always. No other race works like that with any unit. .
In which case is it a bad idea to build marines ? In which case is it a bad idea to build high templars ?
So biased...
It's not a good idea to go for mostly marines in a looooot of scenarios. Also, it's really not fair to compare the stereotypic terran unit with a spellcaster. For templars, again, there's a ton of situations where basing your army off of mostly templars is a really bad idea (the entire PvP matchup, really the entire PvZ matchup (templars really don't do too well in terms of cost efficiency against any armored zerg unit), terran mech and terran bio armies that consist of mostly marauder/ghost). I can not think of a zerg or terran unit combination that would make me want to have more than, say, 10 templars. Can you say the same about infestors? I don't think so.
On November 08 2012 20:39 n0ise wrote: why are people so adamant on nerfing the infestor? only problem with the actual unit is it's kinda easier to use than to play against.
I'm much more worried about the fact that I get 'all-ined' at 8:00 then 2 minutes earlier zerg is 4 bases with 80 drones, much more worried that if I want to be equal in economy there's creep spread in my mineral line.
My problem is how easy/fast it is to get a SHITTON of infestors, NOT that I have to split/scan vs it Oo
How about instead of infestor nerfing they chill on the queen buffs, on the ferrari overlords and so on?
3. It's NEVER a bad idea to get infestors. The more infestors you have the better off you are. Always. No other race works like that with any unit. .
In which case is it a bad idea to build marines ? In which case is it a bad idea to build high templars ?
So biased...
Not really the same at all in the case of marines. Not only are there situations where you dont want marines, but most importantly marines are a core unit. Infestors are a SUPPORT unit thats being build 20+ off in the majority of games.
How about that it takes longer for the infested terrans to spawn from the eggs? Then they could mostly be used in a defensive position and you have to plan more ahead when to throw them instead of just adding a ton of dps in a big fight
On November 08 2012 21:09 LOLingBuddha wrote: Id like to add one suggestion..
Make it so that the infested terran eggs are not a priority target until they are hatched. edit: and make the time to hatch slightly longer
Definitely this. Unless you are going mass 3/3 thors, you don't have a chance of destroying the eggs, and all the shots on them are wasted. It is too much damage reduction for zero micro, and if the other player wants to avoid they have to do a lot of focus firing which might reduce their army's overall DPS.
On November 08 2012 20:39 n0ise wrote: why are people so adamant on nerfing the infestor? only problem with the actual unit is it's kinda easier to use than to play against.
I'm much more worried about the fact that I get 'all-ined' at 8:00 then 2 minutes earlier zerg is 4 bases with 80 drones, much more worried that if I want to be equal in economy there's creep spread in my mineral line.
My problem is how easy/fast it is to get a SHITTON of infestors, NOT that I have to split/scan vs it Oo
How about instead of infestor nerfing they chill on the queen buffs, on the ferrari overlords and so on?
3. It's NEVER a bad idea to get infestors. The more infestors you have the better off you are. Always. No other race works like that with any unit. .
In which case is it a bad idea to build marines ? In which case is it a bad idea to build high templars ?
So biased...
marines vs. colosssi. or versus high templars. high templar versus roaches.
On November 08 2012 20:39 n0ise wrote: why are people so adamant on nerfing the infestor? only problem with the actual unit is it's kinda easier to use than to play against.
I'm much more worried about the fact that I get 'all-ined' at 8:00 then 2 minutes earlier zerg is 4 bases with 80 drones, much more worried that if I want to be equal in economy there's creep spread in my mineral line.
My problem is how easy/fast it is to get a SHITTON of infestors, NOT that I have to split/scan vs it Oo
How about instead of infestor nerfing they chill on the queen buffs, on the ferrari overlords and so on?
3. It's NEVER a bad idea to get infestors. The more infestors you have the better off you are. Always. No other race works like that with any unit. .
In which case is it a bad idea to build marines ? In which case is it a bad idea to build high templars ?
So biased...
Try making a mass marine army vs a collossus heavy protoss army, or even better don't go 3 fac tank vs a 3 fac tank player in TvT lategame and see how well your marines do vs 20 tanks...
On November 08 2012 20:36 Roko wrote: I personally think that the Infestor doesn't need a nerf/buff w/e but I do think that other races need something that does properly counter them like the Oracles phase shield f.ex. (although it was removed ._.)
Changes need to be made pre HotS
For terran it could be either - A) EMPs radius is bigger, allowing it to hit 4-6 infestors, instead of 1-3 B) Make infestors smaller so EMPs are more effective.
The problems with ghosts for terrans is they would only be there to EMP, they suck versus broodlord/ultralisk and are just a waste of supply, the difference between ghosts meant to counter HT vs protoss is that even without the EMP, the ghost is really good versus zealots.
Ah but if you make EMP radius bigger then TvP is kinda screwed.
I personally believe a change in fungal vs vikings/flying is good for TvZ, and in general perhaps remove the energy upgrade for infestors so they don't pop out ready to fight. A small change but it did a lot to ht.
On November 08 2012 20:39 n0ise wrote: why are people so adamant on nerfing the infestor? only problem with the actual unit is it's kinda easier to use than to play against.
I'm much more worried about the fact that I get 'all-ined' at 8:00 then 2 minutes earlier zerg is 4 bases with 80 drones, much more worried that if I want to be equal in economy there's creep spread in my mineral line.
My problem is how easy/fast it is to get a SHITTON of infestors, NOT that I have to split/scan vs it Oo
How about instead of infestor nerfing they chill on the queen buffs, on the ferrari overlords and so on?
3. It's NEVER a bad idea to get infestors. The more infestors you have the better off you are. Always. No other race works like that with any unit. .
In which case is it a bad idea to build marines ? In which case is it a bad idea to build high templars ?
So biased...
marines vs. colosssi. or versus high templars. high templar versus roaches.
And these are just quick examples.
But in the case of marines it's different anyway since it's a core unit rather than support/spellcaster. It's not really a problem that a 200/200 roach army is viable mid-game vs P for example.
On November 08 2012 20:36 Roko wrote: I personally think that the Infestor doesn't need a nerf/buff w/e but I do think that other races need something that does properly counter them like the Oracles phase shield f.ex. (although it was removed ._.)
Changes need to be made pre HotS
For terran it could be either - A) EMPs radius is bigger, allowing it to hit 4-6 infestors, instead of 1-3 B) Make infestors smaller so EMPs are more effective.
The problems with ghosts for terrans is they would only be there to EMP, they suck versus broodlord/ultralisk and are just a waste of supply, the difference between ghosts meant to counter HT vs protoss is that even without the EMP, the ghost is really good versus zealots.
Ah but if you make EMP radius bigger then TvP is kinda screwed.
I personally believe a change in fungal vs vikings/flying is good for TvZ, and in general perhaps remove the energy upgrade for infestors so they don't pop out ready to fight. A small change but it did a lot to ht.
you can warp hts in an instant... infestor need like ages to pop + wait for energy......
On November 08 2012 20:39 n0ise wrote: why are people so adamant on nerfing the infestor? only problem with the actual unit is it's kinda easier to use than to play against.
I'm much more worried about the fact that I get 'all-ined' at 8:00 then 2 minutes earlier zerg is 4 bases with 80 drones, much more worried that if I want to be equal in economy there's creep spread in my mineral line.
My problem is how easy/fast it is to get a SHITTON of infestors, NOT that I have to split/scan vs it Oo
How about instead of infestor nerfing they chill on the queen buffs, on the ferrari overlords and so on?
3. It's NEVER a bad idea to get infestors. The more infestors you have the better off you are. Always. No other race works like that with any unit. .
In which case is it a bad idea to build marines ? In which case is it a bad idea to build high templars ?
So biased...
If you are maxed on infestors you have one of the most fierce armies in the entire game, if you are maxed on marines or high templars you will get smacked by almost everything.
On November 08 2012 21:24 IMPrime wrote: but infestors have a 50 sec build time while HTs are only 5 seconds, I don't think it's the same thing.
It would make it more difficult for zerg to survive any midgame timings if infestors are dead weight, which is not the issue I see with the infestors.
Its easy to say all gateway units have a build time of a couple seconds. which is true if all gateways are off cooldown..
but look at the cycle, yes you can warp in in a few seconds, but then you have to wait for your warpgate cooldown.
so i have to kind of disagree with you on this one. edit: also with the upgrade infestors come out and get to fungal right away. a fresh HT can only feedback.
Make it so that fungal starts out as rooting, but the effect slowly lesses as time goes on (i.e. At the beginning of spell, 0% movement, in the middle 30% movement, and at the end 60% movement)
I just feel like straight up slow is too much like time warp, not as conducive to zerg play, and less interesting overall.
On November 08 2012 21:24 IMPrime wrote: but infestors have a 50 sec build time while HTs are only 5 seconds, I don't think it's the same thing.
It would make it more difficult for zerg to survive any midgame timings if infestors are dead weight, which is not the issue I see with the infestors.
Yeah, Warp-In means your Templar have 75 mana by the time the Infestor would hatch. There are drawbacks (HT can be picked off before they have 75 mana, whereas Infestors grow in nearly unkillable eggs) but also advantages (don't have to buy the mana upgrade, can cast Feedback or meld into Archon before the Infestor would hatch, can be on-location to storm before the Infestor since the Infestor spawns at base).
The issue is that High Templar are simply not as good a caster as Infestors.
On November 08 2012 21:24 IMPrime wrote: but infestors have a 50 sec build time while HTs are only 5 seconds, I don't think it's the same thing.
It would make it more difficult for zerg to survive any midgame timings if infestors are dead weight, which is not the issue I see with the infestors.
Its easy to say all gateway units have a build time of a couple seconds. which is true if all gateways are off cooldown..
but look at the cycle, yes you can warp in in a few seconds, but then you have to wait for your warpgate cooldown.
so i have to kind of disagree with you on this one.
Warpgate cycle time and larva production time aren't really relevant to High Templar/Infestors. Your production should be limited by resources (150 gas each) rather than by larva or gateways.
On November 08 2012 20:37 Jimbo77 wrote: 1. FG must not affect Air (indisputable) 2. FG must only slow units by 100% 75% 50% 25% every next second. 3. FG must affect friendly units (storm like) 4. NP must not affect Air (indisputable) 5. IT must cost 50 energy 6. IT can not be spawned while burrowed. 7. Burrowed move must be researched.
1. Not just disputable but wrong. They tried this in the PTR and ZvZ was muta v muta. Also in PvZ there is no way to stop phoenix unless you go hydra. There was a good reason why they didn't go forward with this. 2. Reasonable 3. Crazy for a race that relies on melee units. Would completely destroy infestor ling. 4. Reasonable 5. Only 4 per infestor would massively nerf infestor sneak attacks. 6. Same 7. Reasonable but i don't think that anyone is really concerned about this. I don't think we should just change things for the sake of change.
I think the change to 3 supply is a much better change that addresses a lot of the late game strength of the unit while retaining the midgame strength which zerg need need to survive a lot of midgame attacks.
When they cast fungal growth, make them "throw/fling" an egg filled with fungal goodness at the specified location on the ground, after a certain amount of time (I was thinking the same amount of time it takes storm to kill a marine or something I don't really know they'd have to play with this part of it) it explodes, doing what fungal does normally.
A shorter fuse time it could just be like fungal always was and if they make a longer fuse time it could just do the damage fungal does normally but instant? Like a fungal bomb.
Maybe they should just do what they did with high Templar .. Cant spawn with fungal growth basically it would drastically change the meta but it might be to much
On November 08 2012 21:24 IMPrime wrote: but infestors have a 50 sec build time while HTs are only 5 seconds, I don't think it's the same thing.
It would make it more difficult for zerg to survive any midgame timings if infestors are dead weight, which is not the issue I see with the infestors.
Yeah, Warp-In means your Templar have 75 mana by the time the Infestor would hatch. There are drawbacks (HT can be picked off before they have 75 mana, whereas Infestors grow in nearly unkillable eggs) but also advantages (don't have to buy the mana upgrade, can cast Feedback or meld into Archon before the Infestor would hatch, can be on-location to storm before the Infestor since the Infestor spawns at base).
The issue is that High Templar are simply not as good a caster as Infestors.
On November 08 2012 21:24 IMPrime wrote: but infestors have a 50 sec build time while HTs are only 5 seconds, I don't think it's the same thing.
It would make it more difficult for zerg to survive any midgame timings if infestors are dead weight, which is not the issue I see with the infestors.
Its easy to say all gateway units have a build time of a couple seconds. which is true if all gateways are off cooldown..
but look at the cycle, yes you can warp in in a few seconds, but then you have to wait for your warpgate cooldown.
so i have to kind of disagree with you on this one.
Warpgate cycle time and larva production time aren't really relevant to High Templar/Infestors. Your production should be limited by resources (150 gas each) rather than by larva or gateways.
He was talking about when HT had their energy upgrade. You could litterly warp in HT's in a couple seconds and mass storm.
Infested terran costing supply would be terrible.......cant cast them when i'm maxed? Ok you cant feedback when your maxed. Some of the ideas make me cringe, thought you guys were smarter than this.
I'd honestly try making the fungal a slow and the infested terrans cost 30 mana then see what happens. I know blizzard likes going in sets of 25 but 50 mana infested terrans would be pretty terrible. If they can't break the 25 interval mana thing then the eggs and infested should have reduced hp. For 25 mana, they're passed out like fun-sized candy on Halloween.
i would love to see an increased cost for infested terrans... like maybe 30 or 35 energy instead of 25... the idea that 4 full energy infestors can cast 36 infested terrans still is too much imho.
I don't think the point is to make the infestor weaker... I think the point would be to have an incentive to have 8 or fewer infestors total. To have something else that synergizes so well with the infestor that having too many would just be a waste of supply...
Of course, this means the infestor should probably be weaker, but I feel like making the infestor weaker will just mean we see even more of them used to make up for that weakness T>T
i say make it more expensive in some form. whether that is through cost or through supply/time is all up to blizz...but seeing 30 infenstors on 3-4 bases should not be possible
Any nerf but the supply increase pleeeease. Zerg hardly feels like a swarm anymore with so many 2+ supply units. Infestors are too strong yeah but some of these ideas arent well thought out and would have massive implications.
Im a zerg and i dont mind a fungal nerf (even in zvz infestors can really dictate the mu in a frustrating way), but based on the actual balance statistics a significant fungal nerf needs an equivalent buff on some other zerg aspect. Maybe a better midgame hydra? Or maybe Hots will change a lot of it anyways..
By the way, im positive that a significant portion of the posters/voters in this thread, acting all civil about the issue, are people raging/bm:ing me in ladder. You know who you are.
I voted no to almost everything because most of these changes are retarded. You simply need to get rid of this infestor. But you also need to get rid of colossus and sentries with their FFs.
Also : This is one of the very few post i fully disagree with you nazgul. Seriously man, how long have you been playing sc2 ? It feels like someone else posting instead of you really oO
On November 08 2012 18:38 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Infested terrans 0.5 supply, make fungal a slow and projectile, no neural parasiting massive units.
While i don't find it particularly bad to have a fungal being projectile, i fear the lag will have a huge issue while playing cross based region in hots. No neural parasite to massive units would render it completely useless really.
On November 08 2012 18:43 Nisyax wrote: And what exactly would the purpose of neural be when you can't neural massive units anymore?
Raven, siege tank, high templar, immortal. It would be more accurate to say no more neural on mothership, but it's not like neural on the above four mentioned units would be useless.
Like I said before, how long you didn't play zerg to be honest ? Cauz i can tell you, you'll almost never see a neural parasited tank being game breaking. Most of the time if we were successful about parasiting them, we'd have won that game without using them.
Seriously that's just stupid tbh.
High templar ? Come on, man. Do you often see a templar based army in PvP ? No simply because they're already mobile enough to dodge them, and more importantly, the cost for neural parasiting a templar would've been best used on fungal.
About Ravens, "Maybe" cauz it's already a pain in the ass to find a terran, and even more so a terran playing with Ravens. I can't judge about it.
I think the solution is to either make infestors 3 supply, but that could be in tvz late game a problem when the terran goes mass air, or make fungeled units mobile, because that´s what breaks the game.
The projectile idea would be cool, then tvz could be similar to tvz with fungal feedback fights!
I think making fungal cost more is the best nerf to infestors. Instead of 75, first up it to 85, and if that's not enough add 10 second increments until it feels balanced. As much as I'd love to see the lock down effect removed from fungal, I just feel that it will cripple zerg if it's actually done.
I think instead of just nerfing fungal there should be a change that creates a dynamic that punishes you for building too many of them. For example if fungal couldn't hit air you could punish the zerg for building too many infestors by switching into air units like banshees, carriers, voids or bcs. If this was the case the lategame Zerg matchups could get a lot more dynamic because Zergs couldn't just sit on a ton of infestors and broods anymore because that army would not get better and better over time like it does now.
On November 08 2012 18:38 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Infested terrans 0.5 supply, make fungal a slow and projectile, no neural parasiting massive units.
Like it, but pretty sure the only way they could do a 1/2 supply cost is if it threw 2 at once/2 per egg (works fine if they double up the energy cost though.) I think if slowing movement it should be slowing the rate of fire too, anti-stim goo.
All the ideas have merits, I don't like 3 supply, its more of the super unit death ball mentality. They just need to make it more of a suport unit.
I'd much rather see the end/replacement for hero unit motherships than stopping neural hitting them, vortex vs spread is almost as bad a way to decide the final battle as mothership vs neural. I fear with the mo-core they're committed to this monstrosity though (They don't have to call it an arbiter if it helps them with their "this is our game not broodwar2" thing....)
I don't think fungal should be changed to slow, this will allow armies, especially stimmed marines the ability to get under BL's. I would agree to IT's being .05 supply and maybe not lasting as long but currently there is no viable unit in the zerg army that shoots ground to air. Hydras are just too weak and queens are too slow. There will be certain timings that will allow zerg to get torn up by air. I think blizz really trapped themselves here. the infestor is so needed at this point for zerg to survive that the wrong change could break the race. They are going to have to tread carefully to not let this one get out of hand. It's obvious something has to be done and I'm wondering if it's a slight nerf to infestor and maybe slight buffs to units that counter them.
1. Fungal: slow instead of root (50-75% sounds fine), slow does not affect massive units although damage is still applied 2. IT: Spawns 2 Infested Terran eggs instead of 1, reduce the health and hatching time for eggs, cost 75 energy, maybe slight nerf to damage output of it's 3. Give the neural to viper instead of abduct and buff the spell, propose some other ability for infestor 4. 3 supply
changes concerning viper: I'd suggest merging the corruptor and viper. New unit would have stats of corruptor, including the attack (which may get small nerf due to reworked corruption) and 3 spells:
1. Blinding Cloud (the same as viper has, maybe slight buff to radius) 2. reworked Corruption: The Corruptor corrupts target unit. It can't target structures. The unit has reduced its' armour by 2 to minimum of 0, stackable, 30 sec duration, cost 50 energy. 3. reworked neural parasite: corruptor connects to targeted enemy unit (animation like in abduct) and starts moving towards it. When corruptor reaches the target, takes control over it. The ability can only be cancelled by killing the corruptor before it reaches the unit or killing the unit itself (with unit corruptor also dies) Duration 10-15 sec (Counting from the point when corruptor reaches the target)
I always felt that corruptor is really dull unit but necessary for zerg's antiair. Also I'm not really fond of the abduct ability which not only is quite similar to neural but also looks awkard to say the least. What I propose is merging this two units making corruptor interesting and actually useful beyond it's AA and "morph-to-broodlord" role. Infestors changes speak for themselfs, no need to explain
3. Give the neural to viper instead of abduct and buff the spell, propose some other ability for infestor
I am not so sure giving neural to a flying unit is the way to go. the infestors with neural can be picked off theoretically by anything. ( which i think it should be seeing as you take a unit for yourself that doesnt belong to you, usually these are the expensive units too.)
an infestor has to be careful trying to get close enough for a neural, you have no such limitations if you now give that ability to a flying unit.
I think it would be relatively difficult to take out a viper compared to an infestor.
On November 08 2012 22:32 TheMooseHeed wrote: Any nerf but the supply increase pleeeease. Zerg hardly feels like a swarm anymore with so many 2+ supply units. Infestors are too strong yeah but some of these ideas arent well thought out and would have massive implications.
You think infestors walking around in a big, passive, non-attacking ball of spell casting feels like a swarm though?
The main problem occurs when an infestor catches you by surprise, and kills your entire marine force basically instantly (with the help of banelings).
As a master terran player, I think the important thing is allowing terrans a bit more time to react.
If your army is a-moving across the map, the time you have between an infestor appearing in vision to your whole army being fungalled is very small. There needs to be more time for terrans to react and split their marines, at least partially.
This could be acheived by either
1. Slow instead of root (75%ish) 2. Adding a "cast time" to fungal (i.e. you would be able to see where the fungal is about to land and have maybe 1 second to avoid it. This could be a green circle on the ground where a fungal is about to land, for example)
On November 08 2012 19:28 Insoleet wrote: Zerg needs free supply because 200 200 zergs of only supply-units just get raped by 200 200 protoss or 200 200 terran. Dont forgot this.
The problem with IT is not the fact that they are supply-free. It's that with 25 infestors, its 200 infested terran that can be created in the worst case. And 25 infestors is only 50 supply, 1/3 on the zerg army. A 3 supply infestor would be : 16 infestors for 50 supply. Only 128 infested terrans maximum. For 30 supply of infestors, only 10 infestors. 80 infested terran maximum. Way better.
No! this is plain wrong. zerg dont need it, 200/200 zerg must be raped. Why because zerg has the better economy! so It supposed to be that protoss or terran kills the zerg army twice or even 3 times, remember that zerg is the only race that can remax almost immediately and in any composition they want.
About the IT just double their mana cost, the zerg, Is a joke how a stealth unit can be so fucking versatile. Is like if the dark Templar has range and can target air.
I would like to see a complete remake of the unit. Who ever thought psystorm+maelstorm+mindcontrol all in 1 was a good idea should be fired. Enough of patching already, its HoTS, its the PERFECT excuse to introducing new things.
Make infestors 3 supply and reduce infested terrans range to 3 (from 5). This would make them less spamable and make air a more viable counter to the zerg deathball.
Base damage on distance traveled during the fungal growth. Damage is the same for X% (80?) of the distance unstimmed marines can move during that time.
just increase duration of fungal a bit and/or turn it into slow instead of root.
I think infested terrans are not really too strong, just fungal. I believe IT are just seeing so much use now because infestors see so much use. Of course I could be wrong here but infestors definately shouldn't be overnerfed, they are a transition unit to hive so should always be of some use, just make them a little less spammable. Slightly nerfing fungal as a damage spell should go a long way towards this already I guess.
Most of the listed changes are stuff that would require a whole lot other changes to keep zerg viable. The problem with infestors are that you can spam a shit lot of ITs while using a few for fungals. Increase the energy cost of IT, reduce the time it takes for them to morph, and reduce the time they are active. This will make the ITs more of a temporary unit at a specific time instead of constantly 20+ marines under your BLs.
I don't understand why so many of these changes focus on Fungal. It's only extremely good if you walk your entire army in a clump in to unscouted areas, but that's like if I should whine about my entire army dying if I walk up a ramp without vision and I get forcefielded off and killed.
If you were to remove the root effect, you'd have to rebalance a lot of other stuff, since zerg needs it to ever be able to engage lategame since zergs have the slowest army. It would be incredibly easy to pick a part brood lords with stimmed marines/vikings/blink stalkers etc if fungal didn't root.
3. Give the neural to viper instead of abduct and buff the spell, propose some other ability for infestor
I am not so sure giving neural to a flying unit is the way to go. the infestors with neural can be picked off theoretically by anything. ( which i think it should be seeing as you take a unit for yourself that doesnt belong to you, usually these are the expensive units too.)
an infestor has to be careful trying to get close enough for a neural, you have no such limitations if you now give that ability to a flying unit.
I think it would be relatively difficult to take out a viper compared to an infestor.
I agree that it would be realtively difficult to take out a viper compared to an infestor. However right now the difficulty of casting neural with infestors is to big and that's the main reason why don't see neural used almost at all (with the obvious mothership steal exception). The risk of loosing the costly infestor is just too high to take so zerg players would rather use other infestor's abilities. I am aware that giving neural to flying unit might cause some problems and for sure will need proper balancing that's why I proposed that casting neural do not give you an instant control over target unit so oposing player has some time to micro and shoot down approaching viper which is during the process of reaching target (similarly how the seeker missile works).
On November 08 2012 20:37 Jimbo77 wrote: 1. FG must not affect Air (indisputable) 2. FG must only slow units by 100% 75% 50% 25% every next second. 3. FG must affect friendly units (storm like) 4. NP must not affect Air (indisputable) 5. IT must cost 50 energy 6. IT can not be spawned while burrowed. 7. Burrowed move must be researched.
1. Not just disputable but wrong. They tried this in the PTR and ZvZ was muta v muta. Also in PvZ there is no way to stop phoenix unless you go hydra. There was a good reason why they didn't go forward with this. 2. Reasonable 3. Crazy for a race that relies on melee units. Would completely destroy infestor ling. 4. Reasonable 5. Only 4 per infestor would massively nerf infestor sneak attacks. 6. Same 7. Reasonable but i don't think that anyone is really concerned about this. I don't think we should just change things for the sake of change.
I think the change to 3 supply is a much better change that addresses a lot of the late game strength of the unit while retaining the midgame strength which zerg need need to survive a lot of midgame attacks.
1. The problem with air is that blizzard instead of buffing the hydra, makes zerg relay in a spell. For me is bad design. 2. 3. Agree 4. NP must affect anything I want 5. Maybe to harsh but must be 40. The idea is to nerf it because simply they are too cost efficient. I want to compare it with a marine drop. First you need to detect it instead of caching it when is flying. Second the cost of the drop is 500 Min 100 gas compared to the 150 100 of the infestor and third, the IT is more strong that the marine and basically are performing the same role. SO IT must cost more energy 6. I believe that IT should be spawned while burrowed 7. Reasonable
On November 08 2012 23:11 NB wrote: I would like to see a complete remake of the unit. Who ever thought psystorm+maelstorm+mindcontrol all in 1 was a good idea should be fired. Enough of patching already, its HoTS, its the PERFECT excuse to introducing new things.
That was probably Browder himself. You know how much he loves TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE.
Wow, I think that the popular vote is pretty much bang-on. Although I would like to see the change made that fungal can't kill units. It makes it a higher-level unit, you have to micro something else at the same time as the infestor. You can't just stare at your 6 infestors and chain spells, you have to bring a roach or smth.
Currently Zerg loses mid game against Protoss but wins in late. Now people want Zerg to lose in mid and lose in late. I agree that the current balance isn't how it should be, but Jesus Christ guys its a two way street.
I'm a little sad that making the infestor, as a unit, smaller size (close to a stalker) isn't one of the voting options. The 2nd best option in my opinion is the 3 supply, but even then you can still have 20 end game infestors with infinite energy that emping or a couple siege tank shots or a storm or a couple colossus won't have any reasonable effect.
It really seems like the easiest thing that change that will not impact any power balance, however would punish zerg that don't split more and reward terrans and protoss that micro/focus fire by making it easier to wipe out hordes of infestors.
On November 08 2012 21:38 GreenAndOrangeTurtle wrote:
On November 08 2012 20:37 Jimbo77 wrote: 1. FG must not affect Air (indisputable) 2. FG must only slow units by 100% 75% 50% 25% every next second. 3. FG must affect friendly units (storm like) 4. NP must not affect Air (indisputable) 5. IT must cost 50 energy 6. IT can not be spawned while burrowed. 7. Burrowed move must be researched.
1. Not just disputable but wrong. They tried this in the PTR and ZvZ was muta v muta. Also in PvZ there is no way to stop phoenix unless you go hydra. There was a good reason why they didn't go forward with this. 2. Reasonable 3. Crazy for a race that relies on melee units. Would completely destroy infestor ling. 4. Reasonable 5. Only 4 per infestor would massively nerf infestor sneak attacks. 6. Same 7. Reasonable but i don't think that anyone is really concerned about this. I don't think we should just change things for the sake of change.
I think the change to 3 supply is a much better change that addresses a lot of the late game strength of the unit while retaining the midgame strength which zerg need need to survive a lot of midgame attacks.
1. The problem with air is that blizzard instead of buffing the hydra, makes zerg relay in a spell. For me is bad design. 2. 3. Agree 4. NP must affect anything I want 5. Maybe to harsh but must be 40. The idea is to nerf it because simply they are too cost efficient. I want to compare it with a marine drop. First you need to detect it instead of caching it when is flying. Second the cost of the drop is 500 Min 100 gas compared to the 150 100 of the infestor and third, the IT is more strong that the marine and basically are performing the same role. SO IT must cost more energy 6. I believe that IT should be spawned while burrowed 7. Reasonable
1. Buffing Hyrdas will actually make people use those, makes sense. If anything, here is a major game flaw, roaches were never needed as a unit. They are designed as an a-move unit. Sure you still can micro them, but sometimes you might not even bother. Maybe my small brain fails to understand Big Logic behind unit that can completely ignore all AoE abilities and still be efficient. 4. NP is only used against Momaship. Kinda makes sence to keep it the way it is. 5. Why support unit must be good at making sneaky attacks? Sure, it's cool that one unit is pretty much good at everything, but that's what we want to remove. Having free units is pretty good already. Want to harass? Please, get mutalisks. They are pretty good when it comes to harassing. 6. ...whatever. Doesn't really matter that much. If you failed to detect infestors in time you will still get screwed. 7. Kinda makes sence, but, really, doesn't.
If blizz doesn't want to change the abilities and they consider those "balanced", just double the supply, cost and energy cost of infestors. Will be pretty fine.
I'm a Zerg player but I'll try to be as unbiased as possible. Nerfing the infestor needs to be done very carefully because of one fact that doesn't get mentioned enough: the infestor is the core unit of the Zerg race. Yes, you read that right. The thing is, the core unit of a race (from what we know from past RTS experience) absolutely must be able to attack both ground and air. Since hydras are very specialized (and awful) units, they are not an option. Infestors can "attack" both ground and air with both fungal and IT.
That said, some of these suggestions are OK, but taking even a small number of them at the same time will in my opinion be a major overnerf. What I'd like to see is a more elaborate change to zerg as a whole that would include the infestor change as well. As that will not happen before HotS, it's pretty pointless to change anything now.
Just to give a simple example. One of the suggestions is that neural should not work on the mothership. While that might solve "something", it would just be a band-aid on a broken matchup. The matchup is not only broken because the infestor is "OP", it's broken because of like 5 different factors. One of them being that no single Zerg composition except broodlord/infestor/queen/spine even dents the Protoss deathball. That is a consequence of how colossi work (a-move AoE type of unit) coupled with forcefield in the early and mid game.
Anyway, making a spell cost supply is a horrible idea in my opinion, but making infestors 3 or even 4 supply sounds like an interesting idea. However, you will still see them massed as they are, as I said earlier, the core unit of the Zerg race. That's what actually needs to be changed.
if fungal is should be a projectile so should emp like in bw, but with higher range and radius.
anyway, i think fungal should slow, eggs should have no armor, infestors need to be larger, no burrow infested terran shooting, infested terrans should be shorter duration, fungal really needs to have a team thing like emp and storm. lower the dps. lower the fungal range to like 5. make infestors stun themselves for like 2 seconds after they cast any spell. no neural parasite on massive units.
• make fungal kill units instantly • increase radius • make infested terrans cost no mana • increase hitpoints to 750, 3 armor • increase cost to 100/2000 • increase supply cost to 4 • decrease build time • the player who gets the Infestor wins the game after 4 in-game minutes (similar to Wonder in Age of Empires)
If you want to make mothersip un-neuralable (wow that's an ugly word) make it so that neural cannot target psionic units (which the mothership is).
Please don't nerf neural on massive units, right now we only see it in TvZ mech to neural the thors and it would become another useless spell.
Edit : If you want to make sense lorewise it does, psionic units are too strong mentally to be able to come under the influence of neural blablabla..
On November 09 2012 00:00 clocked wrote: if fungal is should be a projectile so should emp like in bw, but with higher range and radius.
anyway, i think fungal should slow, eggs should have no armor, infestors need to be larger, no burrow infested terran shooting, infested terrans should be shorter duration, fungal really needs to have a team thing like emp and storm. lower the dps. lower the fungal range to like 5. make infestors stun themselves for like 2 seconds after they cast any spell. no neural parasite on massive units.
Most of these are idiotic changes. They either don't solve anything(that psuedo-smart idea of slow instead of root) or will make zerg terrible because of how much they rely on infestors.(Fungal friendly fire).
On November 08 2012 21:38 GreenAndOrangeTurtle wrote:
On November 08 2012 20:37 Jimbo77 wrote: 1. FG must not affect Air (indisputable) 2. FG must only slow units by 100% 75% 50% 25% every next second. 3. FG must affect friendly units (storm like) 4. NP must not affect Air (indisputable) 5. IT must cost 50 energy 6. IT can not be spawned while burrowed. 7. Burrowed move must be researched.
1. Not just disputable but wrong. They tried this in the PTR and ZvZ was muta v muta. Also in PvZ there is no way to stop phoenix unless you go hydra. There was a good reason why they didn't go forward with this. 2. Reasonable 3. Crazy for a race that relies on melee units. Would completely destroy infestor ling. 4. Reasonable 5. Only 4 per infestor would massively nerf infestor sneak attacks. 6. Same 7. Reasonable but i don't think that anyone is really concerned about this. I don't think we should just change things for the sake of change.
I think the change to 3 supply is a much better change that addresses a lot of the late game strength of the unit while retaining the midgame strength which zerg need need to survive a lot of midgame attacks.
Why do you guys keep quoting this? Alltogether it makes a terrible idea for a change. Why do you guys keep quoting the guy? It's a terrible idea.
1. The problem with air is that blizzard instead of buffing the hydra, makes zerg relay in a spell. For me is bad design. 2. 3. Agree 4. NP must affect anything I want 5. Maybe to harsh but must be 40. The idea is to nerf it because simply they are too cost efficient. I want to compare it with a marine drop. First you need to detect it instead of caching it when is flying. Second the cost of the drop is 500 Min 100 gas compared to the 150 100 of the infestor and third, the IT is more strong that the marine and basically are performing the same role. SO IT must cost more energy 6. I believe that IT should be spawned while burrowed 7. Reasonable
1. Buffing Hyrdas will actually make people use those, makes sense. If anything, here is a major game flaw, roaches were never needed as a unit. They are designed as an a-move unit. Sure you still can micro them, but sometimes you might not even bother. Maybe my small brain fails to understand Big Logic behind unit that can completely ignore all AoE abilities and still be efficient. 4. NP is only used against Momaship. Kinda makes sence to keep it the way it is. 5. Why support unit must be good at making sneaky attacks? Sure, it's cool that one unit is pretty much good at everything, but that's what we want to remove. Having free units is pretty good already. Want to harass? Please, get mutalisks. They are pretty good when it comes to harassing. 6. ...whatever. Doesn't really matter that much. If you failed to detect infestors in time you will still get screwed. 7. Kinda makes sence, but, really, doesn't.
If blizz doesn't want to change the abilities and they consider those "balanced", just double the supply, cost and energy cost of infestors. Will be pretty fine.
Why do you guys keep quoting this? altogether the changes would make a terrible idea.
I think one of the most important change would be other races having better counters so the infestor is still a strong situational unit but if you don't protect / use it right you are punished. Like if ghost where really good and you could only keep the infestors safe if you had really good overseer coverage and kept the vikings from killing your overseers.
On November 08 2012 23:59 budar wrote: I'm a Zerg player but I'll try to be as unbiased as possible. Nerfing the infestor needs to be done very carefully because of one fact that doesn't get mentioned enough: the infestor is the core unit of the Zerg race. Yes, you read that right. The thing is, the core unit of a race (from what we know from past RTS experience) absolutely must be able to attack both ground and air. Since hydras are very specialized (and awful) units, they are not an option. Infestors can "attack" both ground and air with both fungal and IT.
That said, some of these suggestions are OK, but taking even a small number of them at the same time will in my opinion be a major overnerf. What I'd like to see is a more elaborate change to zerg as a whole that would include the infestor change as well. As that will not happen before HotS, it's pretty pointless to change anything now.
Just to give a simple example. One of the suggestions is that neural should not work on the mothership. While that might solve "something", it would just be a band-aid on a broken matchup. The matchup is not only broken because the infestor is "OP", it's broken because of like 5 different factors. One of them being that no single Zerg composition except broodlord/infestor/queen/spine even dents the Protoss deathball. That is a consequence of how colossi work (a-move AoE type of unit) coupled with forcefield in the early and mid game.
Anyway, making a spell cost supply is a horrible idea in my opinion, but making infestors 3 or even 4 supply sounds like an interesting idea. However, you will still see them massed as they are, as I said earlier, the core unit of the Zerg race. That's what actually needs to be changed.
Ever tried using those, other, units, you know, the ones that don't require lair and infestation pit? I dunno, maybe those roaches? Banelings? Zerglings? Mutalisks? Maybe you will start using that drop upgrade on your overlords?
Only few zergs even bothered to use those.
Right now, almost every possible unit in game was used against the BL/Infestor comp. And we had wins only when zerg made things that are plain stupid.
You have to be really careful if you're going to nerf the infestor since the mid game is balanced around it for zerg entirely. The end game mass infestor/bl is the real problem. I definitely wouldn't get rid of energy or mess with the supply. 75% snare instead of root sounds like a reasonable change. Would definitely help with vikings not getting countered by just infestors. As far as IT's go, perhaps a small change to energy cost (25 to 30). These seem like small nerfs, but they could be pretty huge as far as balance goes.
On November 09 2012 00:11 trias_e wrote: You have to be really careful if you're going to nerf the infestor since the mid game is balanced around it for zerg entirely. The end game mass infestor/bl is the real problem. I definitely wouldn't get rid of energy or mess with the supply. 75% snare instead of root sounds like a reasonable change. Would definitely help with vikings not getting countered by just infestors. As far as IT's go, perhaps a small change to energy cost (25 to 30). These seem like small nerfs, but they could be pretty huge as far as balance goes.
Yes some people have to realize that Blizzard has to be very carefull here. Yes Broodlord/Infestor is stupid lategame, but the infestor is a crutch to get into lategame. I disagree that messing with the supply is a bad idea, 1 more supply doesn't really affect you until the lategame where you can max on less stuff.
3 supply and a % slow seem like the first things to try imo.
the problem with make fungal just slow down units instead of stopping them, is that stalkers than are able to blink out than. and mass stalker builds with blink would destroy zerg than i think...
On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote: Where's the option to make other races use their casters more?
in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp...
On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote: Where's the option to make other races use their casters more?
in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp...
Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously).
Not exactly a fan of the Infestor myself, but so many of these suggestions here are outright terrible ><
Adding any supply to IT at all sounds incredibly narrow-minded and specific. If IT costs supply, I don't see why other summon abilities/free units shouldn't be the same. Force Fields, Broodlings, Auto-turrets, hallucinations, hell, maybe we should make buildings cost supply too! Quite simply, it makes the skill stupid and pointless, who would ever think that is fun and interesting in the slightest?
Increasing infestor supply is more of the same supply inflation bullshit that makes units like the siege tank, roach, and hydra so weak, and I honestly can't see Zerg affording it at all. That would basically kill the units viability at all points of the game, and the Zerg race as a whole.
Any suggestion that targets NP is, again, horrible. The ability is costly (both in energy and research), short range, and typically used against exactly 1 unit in the entirety of the game. Any balance problems NP presents are MS problems and nothing else. You want to make NP useless again? Remove the mothership.
Really, ANY suggestion to adjust IT is rather baseless. IT is a good spell, it has uses, it is strong, cheap, and offers one of the only viable harass methods the Zerg army possess. IT is NOT good for peppering a few eggs into a standing army. ITs fall quickly to AoE damage, ITs need lots of casts to be useful in general. The ability has positives and negatives, it's fucking balanced, stop crying about it.
Fungal is where the problem lies, and Fungal is what needs to be changed, for the good of the game. I have all but quit logging in to SC2 at this point because, lets face it, the game has become stagnant and boring, and Blizzard doesn't seem to be interested in fixing anything until HotS comes out.
If Blizzard wants to keep people playing, we need some quality changes like a fungal nerf, FF nerf, Vortex nerf, etc. There are too many things that just feel fucking wrong in SC2, Fungal is one of them, IT is not. Fix the problem, not the byproduct.
On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote: Where's the option to make other races use their casters more?
in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp...
Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously).
On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote: Where's the option to make other races use their casters more?
in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp...
Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously).
well that only works when u got enough energy for cloaking and sniping than, coz without the cloak u cant get near the infestors coz of the brutelings from the brutelords.... idk i felt kinda sad seeing last time gsl final, when mvp was making 1 simple small mistake and ends up loosing while zerg can make some mistakes without taking to much effect...
On November 09 2012 00:30 Jermstuddog wrote: Not exactly a fan of the Infestor myself, but so many of these suggestions here are outright terrible ><
Adding any supply to IT at all sounds incredibly narrow-minded and specific. If IT costs supply, I don't see why other summon abilities/free units shouldn't be the same. Force Fields, Broodlings, Auto-turrets, hallucinations, hell, maybe we should make buildings cost supply too! Quite simply, it makes the skill stupid and pointless, who would ever think that is fun and interesting in the slightest?
Increasing infestor supply is more of the same supply inflation bullshit that makes units like the siege tank, roach, and hydra so weak, and I honestly can't see Zerg affording it at all. That would basically kill the units viability at all points of the game, and the Zerg race as a whole.
Any suggestion that targets NP is, again, horrible. The ability is costly (both in energy and research), short range, and typically used against exactly 1 unit in the entirety of the game. Any balance problems NP presents are MS problems and nothing else. You want to make NP useless again? Remove the mothership.
Really, ANY suggestion to adjust IT is rather baseless. IT is a good spell, it has uses, it is strong, cheap, and offers one of the only viable harass methods the Zerg army possess. IT is NOT good for peppering a few eggs into a standing army. ITs fall quickly to AoE damage, ITs need lots of casts to be useful in general. The ability has positives and negatives, it's fucking balanced, stop crying about it.
Fungal is where the problem lies, and Fungal is what needs to be changed, for the good of the game. I have all but quit logging in to SC2 at this point because, lets face it, the game has become stagnant and boring, and Blizzard doesn't seem to be interested in fixing anything until HotS comes out.
If Blizzard wants to keep people playing, we need some quality changes like a fungal nerf, FF nerf, Vortex nerf, etc. There are too many things that just feel fucking wrong in SC2, Fungal is one of them, IT is not. Fix the problem, not the byproduct.
Terrible suggestions...
It's not balanced. If you don't like to polls, don't vote, or vote "No".
On November 09 2012 00:30 Jermstuddog wrote: If Blizzard wants to keep people playing, we need some quality changes like a fungal nerf, FF nerf, Vortex nerf, etc. There are too many things that just feel fucking wrong in SC2, Fungal is one of them, IT is not. Fix the problem, not the byproduct.
Terrible suggestions...
Your whole post reads like you knew the answer to everything but I'm not so sure about this. I saw quite some games where P died to IT because they didn't had AOE in time.
On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote: Where's the option to make other races use their casters more?
in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp...
Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously).
No. It doesn't.
Snipe does 50 damage to Infestors. Infestors have 90 HP. It does.
This is quiete simple... Fungal should be nerfed... it should work a different way fewer dmg and just slowing units. On the other hand i feel that infested terran when throwen down before the engagement vs non splash armys are looking silly strong. But make them cost supply is a stupid idea
On November 09 2012 00:30 Jermstuddog wrote: If Blizzard wants to keep people playing, we need some quality changes like a fungal nerf, FF nerf, Vortex nerf, etc. There are too many things that just feel fucking wrong in SC2, Fungal is one of them, IT is not. Fix the problem, not the byproduct.
Terrible suggestions...
Your whole post reads like you knew the answer to everything but I'm not so sure about this. I saw quite some games where P died to IT because they didn't had AOE in time.
And I have seen 100x more games where Zerg dies to Colossi because they don't have flying units in time/not enough flying units/too many flying units/xyz.
Anecdotal evidence like that can be found ANYWHERE in the game because it's SUPPOSED to happen that you cannot prepare for everything all the time.
Show me a prepared Protoss losing to IT and not fungal and maybe I'll consider it, but that ability has gone unchanged longer than fungal, and it was never known for being OP in the slightest. The only reason it is even notable in the slightest NOW is because FUNGAL allows Zergs to continually add infestors throughout the game until they're in the 30s.
Yes, 100+ free units can be problematic, but IT is NOT the problem, it's the 30 infestors and the freedom/necessity of having so many that is the problem, stop trying to fix the symptoms.
On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote: Where's the option to make other races use their casters more?
in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp...
Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously).
No. It doesn't.
It does since they Nerfed snipe. It now does 25(+25 to psionic) compared to 45 flat before.
But you wont see sniped used anyways since Terrans already have so much to do lategame TvZ compared to Zergs.
Fungal should not root, IT eggs should have same prio as other targets and have the same HP as the Infested Terran they spawn. 3 Supply cost.
On November 09 2012 00:23 KOtical wrote: the problem with make fungal just slow down units instead of stopping them, is that stalkers than are able to blink out than. and mass stalker builds with blink would destroy zerg than i think...
You can still have it that stalkers can't blink while they are fungaled.
Perhaps Mothership should gain an ability that prevents it from being neuraled, similar to frenzied for Ultras. Of course then you have to do something about the Archon toilet...
On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote: Where's the option to make other races use their casters more?
in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp...
Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously).
On November 09 2012 00:30 Jermstuddog wrote: Really, ANY suggestion to adjust IT is rather baseless. IT is a good spell, it has uses, it is strong, cheap, and offers one of the only viable harass methods the Zerg army possess. IT is NOT good for peppering a few eggs into a standing army. ITs fall quickly to AoE damage, ITs need lots of casts to be useful in general. The ability has positives and negatives, it's fucking balanced, stop crying about it.
No it's not. Showering entire armies to the point they are surrounded by eggs and then just die to the massive, out of control DPS it provides is certainly not “balanced”. Because there are not only ITs, you know. Meanwhile, Broodlords are also summoning their own supply-free army. And even against air, how can you fail to realize how stupid it is that both BCs and Carriers-based armies, the most expensive fleets Terran and Protoss can build, die just to IT spam + a few Fungals if they try to retreat?
On November 09 2012 00:30 Jermstuddog wrote: If Blizzard wants to keep people playing, we need some quality changes like a fungal nerf, FF nerf, Vortex nerf, etc. There are too many things that just feel fucking wrong in SC2, Fungal is one of them, IT is not. Fix the problem, not the byproduct.
Terrible suggestions...
Your whole post reads like you knew the answer to everything but I'm not so sure about this. I saw quite some games where P died to IT because they didn't had AOE in time.
I don't see many games lost to IT, and again it's IT coupled with the current fungal, infestor size/supply and all. Keep in mind nerfing fungal is also a nerf to IT since they share the same energy pool. A nerfed fungal means more fungals are needed than before and less energy is avalaible for ITs.
We want the infestor to be nerfed, not zerg not being able to win games anymore past the midgame.
3-4 EMPs wrecks their army, add a couple Seekers afterwards and you are set. The few time I see a pro game where they actually build a similar number of caster units the fights usually favor the non zerg.
I'd change fungal to a slow like chains of ice on WoW death knights. That is, it slows a lot at first but wears off. Something like 80% minus 20% each second. Make it so it doesn't cancel commands of the affected units.
If you really want to lock something down, you still can, but you have to pay for it in energy, otherwise, the units start to wiggle free as they regain speed. It might even be appropriate for the progression to be more steep, like 80->40->20->10% (halved reduction each second). In that case, you might make it 5 seconds and very slightly increase the damage (back to whatever it was when it was first changed or halfway between that and current damage).
On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote: Where's the option to make other races use their casters more?
in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp...
Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously).
On November 09 2012 00:30 Jermstuddog wrote: Really, ANY suggestion to adjust IT is rather baseless. IT is a good spell, it has uses, it is strong, cheap, and offers one of the only viable harass methods the Zerg army possess. IT is NOT good for peppering a few eggs into a standing army. ITs fall quickly to AoE damage, ITs need lots of casts to be useful in general. The ability has positives and negatives, it's fucking balanced, stop crying about it.
No it's not. Showering entire armies to the point they are surrounded by eggs and then just die to the massive, out of control DPS it provides is certainly not “balanced”. Because there are not only ITs, you know. Meanwhile, Broodlords are also summoning their own supply-free army. And even against air, how can you fail to realize how stupid it is that both BCs and Carriers-based armies, the most expensive fleets Terran and Protoss can build, die just to IT spam + a few Fungals if they try to retreat?
The same reason they die to stimmed marines if they try to retreat... and the same reason why broodlords die to stimmed marines or blink stalkers if they try to retreat. Because they're not invincible and zergs don't have t1 anti-air units like T and P.
this is a delicate subject because overnerfing infestors would make zerg terrible o_o, tbh i think creep is as big of an issue if not even bigger than infestors currently are
1)infestors 3 supply (still not sure about this one) 2)0 armor infested terran eggs and have their hp carry over once they hatch (having their hp carry over might be too big of a nerf aswell, at the very least infested terran eggs should have 0 armor) 3)make interceptors immune to fungal (100%) 4)make the mothership immune to neural (100%)
both 3) and 4) are obviously pvz related , i think the biggest issue in tvz is that infested terrans are too cost efficient against mech and fungal is too cost efficient against bio.. balancing those 2 spells out while trying to maintain some sort of balance in zvp is going to be problematic =/
On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote: Where's the option to make other races use their casters more?
in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp...
Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously).
No. It doesn't.
It does since they Nerfed snipe. It now does 25(+25 to psionic) compared to 45 flat before.
But you wont see sniped used anyways since Terrans already have so much to do lategame TvZ compared to Zergs.
Fungal should not root, IT eggs should have same prio as other targets and have the same HP as the Infested Terran they spawn. 3 Supply cost.
The comment was on range.
Fungal has same effective radius as snipe. BL attack has 0.5 range less than snipe. Again, the only thing zerg has to bother to do is put overseers slightly in front of his army.
On November 09 2012 00:54 ROOTT1 wrote: this is a delicate subject because overnerfing infestors would make zerg terrible o_o, tbh i think creep is as big of an issue if not even bigger than infestors currently are
1)infestors 3 supply (still not sure about this one) 2)0 armor infested terran eggs and have their hp carry over once they hatch 3)make interceptors immune to fungal 4)make the mothership immune to neural
"do infested terrans regain their health back once they hatch from the eggs?" - TT1 =)
On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote: Where's the option to make other races use their casters more?
in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp...
Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously).
On November 09 2012 00:30 Jermstuddog wrote: Really, ANY suggestion to adjust IT is rather baseless. IT is a good spell, it has uses, it is strong, cheap, and offers one of the only viable harass methods the Zerg army possess. IT is NOT good for peppering a few eggs into a standing army. ITs fall quickly to AoE damage, ITs need lots of casts to be useful in general. The ability has positives and negatives, it's fucking balanced, stop crying about it.
No it's not. Showering entire armies to the point they are surrounded by eggs and then just die to the massive, out of control DPS it provides is certainly not “balanced”. Because there are not only ITs, you know. Meanwhile, Broodlords are also summoning their own supply-free army. And even against air, how can you fail to realize how stupid it is that both BCs and Carriers-based armies, the most expensive fleets Terran and Protoss can build, die just to IT spam + a few Fungals if they try to retreat?
You're not reading his post, the reason infestors are OP, according to him, is because they can be massed without penalty because of Fungal growth, if the can't be massed, you can't surround an army with IT eggs and you wont die, etc. If you only need/want 3-5 infestors (which can be sniped easier than 20-30), you don't rain down IT's.
I agree with the fact Fungal is OP, not with IT's or NP, whatever idiot came up with the last one. NP is hardly used, besides the mothership.
On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote: Where's the option to make other races use their casters more?
in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp...
Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously).
On November 09 2012 00:30 Jermstuddog wrote: Really, ANY suggestion to adjust IT is rather baseless. IT is a good spell, it has uses, it is strong, cheap, and offers one of the only viable harass methods the Zerg army possess. IT is NOT good for peppering a few eggs into a standing army. ITs fall quickly to AoE damage, ITs need lots of casts to be useful in general. The ability has positives and negatives, it's fucking balanced, stop crying about it.
No it's not. Showering entire armies to the point they are surrounded by eggs and then just die to the massive, out of control DPS it provides is certainly not “balanced”. Because there are not only ITs, you know. Meanwhile, Broodlords are also summoning their own supply-free army. And even against air, how can you fail to realize how stupid it is that both BCs and Carriers-based armies, the most expensive fleets Terran and Protoss can build, die just to IT spam + a few Fungals if they try to retreat?
Again, the problem is with having 20-30 Infestors on the field, not the IT ability.
The problem is multifaceted, and honestly, you could completely remove the IT ability and we would STILL see 20-30 Infestors on the field. I don't see how anybody can seriously argue against that. Think about that for a minute.
Establishing that the ability can be removed completely and not remove my incentive to mass infestors all game long should be more than enough evidence that IT is not the problem.
Here are some of the issues with the Infestor:
1) Fungal Growth completely locks down entire armies outside of combat range given enough energy to continually cast until death. 2) Zerg has no incentive to build non-infestor ground units for their "perfect army" composition. Everything that isn't an infestor gets destroyed by the standard mid-game compositions the other races have to offer and absolutely trashed by late-game compositions. 3) The Brood Lord is a fairly poor combat unit. It's like a Siege Tank with no splash, less range, and slower movement. Really you can't just build as many BL as possible and win vs any standard army. Standard units like Marines and Stalkers can easily clean up BL armies provided they can get within range. 4) Zerg has no "generalist" unit. Terran have the Marine, Protoss has the Stalker, and it would seem that Zerg SHOULD have the Hydra, but we've all seen how well they fair in regular combat. Instead, we get the Infestor, which had fungal buffed so it could fulfill this "core unit" role rather than getting a standard combat core. 5) The viability of the entire Zerg army is directly proportional to the gas-value of said army (minerals are cheap, plentiful, and largely useless). The best way to maintain the gas investment is with a unit like the infestor that doesn't actually have to trade or even engage with the enemy army. Further dissuading Zerg from non-Infestor units. Really, the challenge of Zerg has been figuring out WHEN you can afford to start investing endlessly in the continually growing infestor-ball.
Some reasonable fixes:
1) Make the Hydralisk useful as a generalist unit. At that point, you should be able to completely remove the Infestor without reasonably destroying the Zerg race. 2) So long as Zerg has something else to rely on, reduce the general utility/necessity of endless fungal spam for mid and late-game combat by directly reducing the effectiveness of the ability. It's not fun in it's current iteration, so apply any number of the suggest fungal-related fixes until satisfied. 3) Turn the Infestor into a niche-filling unit like the other casters. I should still WANT to have a handful of infestors, just not 30+. Give me a reason to want to cast NP and you'll have fulfilled this. Right now, that spell is generally a waste and not even worth researching unless a Mothership is on the field.
The irony in all this is that the Infestor was fine before Blizzard fucked with fungal. Infestors had harass through IT, 2 utility abilities to help with standard Zerg armies through Fungal and NP, and it was already filling its niche quite nicely.
Blizzard made the big mistake of making it the one end-all-be-all unit for the entire Zerg army and that's where our problems come from.
On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote: Where's the option to make other races use their casters more?
in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp...
Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously).
On November 09 2012 00:30 Jermstuddog wrote: Really, ANY suggestion to adjust IT is rather baseless. IT is a good spell, it has uses, it is strong, cheap, and offers one of the only viable harass methods the Zerg army possess. IT is NOT good for peppering a few eggs into a standing army. ITs fall quickly to AoE damage, ITs need lots of casts to be useful in general. The ability has positives and negatives, it's fucking balanced, stop crying about it.
No it's not. Showering entire armies to the point they are surrounded by eggs and then just die to the massive, out of control DPS it provides is certainly not “balanced”. Because there are not only ITs, you know. Meanwhile, Broodlords are also summoning their own supply-free army. And even against air, how can you fail to realize how stupid it is that both BCs and Carriers-based armies, the most expensive fleets Terran and Protoss can build, die just to IT spam + a few Fungals if they try to retreat?
You're not reading his post, the reason infestors are OP, according to him, is because they can be massed without penalty because of Fungal growth, if the can't be massed, you can't surround an army with IT eggs and you wont die, etc. If you only need/want 3-5 infestors (which can be sniped easier than 20-30), you don't rain down IT's.
I agree with the fact Fungal is OP, not with IT's or NP, whatever idiot came up with the last one. NP is hardly used, besides the mothership.
Zergs don't mass Infestors against mech because of Fungal, they mass them to shower your army with IT eggs. Fungal is absolutely secondary to IT spam in many cases.
Maybe something can be done to how fungal functions in relation to whether or not its being used on creep, ie, when fungals on creep units get pinned down, off creep they get slowed. Or something completely else in relation to on/off creep, just brainstorming here.
Just make fungal growth slow instead of kill. (Could you then blink when FGed with this change?) If that is not enough (although i'm sure it would be) increase infestor cost to 3 supply. EDIT: Traz's idea about the spell having varied power on creep is interesting. Maybe infested terrans hatch normally on creep, +2 seconds off creep or something? But thats just a random idea not something to take too seriously other then discussion.
On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote: Where's the option to make other races use their casters more?
in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp...
Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously).
On November 09 2012 00:30 Jermstuddog wrote: Really, ANY suggestion to adjust IT is rather baseless. IT is a good spell, it has uses, it is strong, cheap, and offers one of the only viable harass methods the Zerg army possess. IT is NOT good for peppering a few eggs into a standing army. ITs fall quickly to AoE damage, ITs need lots of casts to be useful in general. The ability has positives and negatives, it's fucking balanced, stop crying about it.
No it's not. Showering entire armies to the point they are surrounded by eggs and then just die to the massive, out of control DPS it provides is certainly not “balanced”. Because there are not only ITs, you know. Meanwhile, Broodlords are also summoning their own supply-free army. And even against air, how can you fail to realize how stupid it is that both BCs and Carriers-based armies, the most expensive fleets Terran and Protoss can build, die just to IT spam + a few Fungals if they try to retreat?
Again, the problem is with having 20-30 Infestors on the field, not the IT ability.
The problem is multifaceted, and honestly, you could completely remove the IT ability and we would STILL see 20-30 Infestors on the field. I don't see how anybody can seriously argue against that. Think about that for a minute.
Establishing that the ability can be removed completely and not remove my incentive to mass infestors all game long should be more than enough evidence that IT is not the problem.
Here are some of the issues with the Infestor:
1) Fungal Growth completely locks down entire armies outside of combat range given enough energy to continually cast until death. 2) Zerg has no incentive to build non-infestor ground units for their "perfect army" composition. Everything that isn't an infestor gets destroyed by the standard mid-game compositions the other races have to offer and absolutely trashed by late-game compositions. 3) The Brood Lord is a fairly poor combat unit. It's like a Siege Tank with no splash, less range, and slower movement. Really you can't just build as many BL as possible and win vs any standard army. Standard units like Marines and Stalkers can easily clean up BL armies provided they can get within range. 4) Zerg has no "generalist" unit. Terran have the Marine, Protoss has the Stalker, and it would seem that Zerg SHOULD have the Hydra, but we've all seen how well they fair in regular combat. Instead, we get the Infestor, which had fungal buffed so it could fulfill this "core unit" role rather than getting a standard combat core. 5) The viability of the entire Zerg army is directly proportional to the gas-value of said army (minerals are cheap, plentiful, and largely useless). The best way to maintain the gas investment is with a unit like the infestor that doesn't actually have to trade or even engage with the enemy army. Further dissuading Zerg from non-Infestor units. Really, the challenge of Zerg has been figuring out WHEN you can afford to start investing endlessly in the continually growing infestor-ball.
Some reasonable fixes:
1) Make the Hydralisk useful as a generalist unit. At that point, you should be able to completely remove the Infestor without reasonably destroying the Zerg race. 2) So long as Zerg has something else to rely on, reduce the general utility/necessity of endless fungal spam for mid and late-game combat by directly reducing the effectiveness of the ability. It's not fun in it's current iteration, so apply any number of the suggest fungal-related fixes until satisfied. 3) Turn the Infestor into a niche-filling unit like the other casters. I should still WANT to have a handful of infestors, just not 30+. Give me a reason to want to cast NP and you'll have fulfilled this. Right now, that spell is generally a waste and not even worth researching unless a Mothership is on the field.
The irony in all this is that the Infestor was fine before Blizzard fucked with fungal. It had harass through IT, 2 utility abilities to help with standard Zerg armies through Fungal and NP, and it was already filling its niche quite nicely.
Blizzard made the big mistake of making it the one end-all-be-all unit for the entire Zerg army and that's where our problems come from.
I completly agree, as far as the metagame is concerned the infestor's rise to prominence can really be traced back to fungal changes that set this whole thing in motion.
Increased viability of the Hydra could be a possible solution, but must be implemented carefully as zerg balance in the different matchups proves a wide array of complications
On November 09 2012 00:54 ROOTT1 wrote: this is a delicate subject because overnerfing infestors would make zerg terrible o_o, tbh i think creep is as big of an issue if not even bigger than infestors currently are
1)infestors 3 supply (still not sure about this one) 2)0 armor infested terran eggs and have their hp carry over once they hatch (having their hp carry over might be too big of a nerf aswell, at the very least infested terran eggs should have 0 armor) 3)make interceptors immune to fungal (100%) 4)make the mothership immune to neural (100%)
both 3) and 4) are obviously pvz related , i think the biggest issue in tvz is that infested terrans are too cost efficient against mech and fungal is too cost efficient against bio.. balancing those 2 spells out while trying to maintain some sort of balance in zvp is going to be problematic =/
I agree with all of your suggestions, of course implementing all 4 at once would be too much so maybe 1-2 should be tested at first.
On November 08 2012 21:51 Glockateer wrote: I'd honestly try making the fungal a slow and the infested terrans cost 30 mana then see what happens. I know blizzard likes going in sets of 25 but 50 mana infested terrans would be pretty terrible. If they can't break the 25 interval mana thing then the eggs and infested should have reduced hp. For 25 mana, they're passed out like fun-sized candy on Halloween.
I feel like a lot of problems could be solved if blizzard didn't force spells costs to be a multiple of 25.
I think that fungal should attack air as well because it would be extremely difficult for zerg to build the anti air if the zerg is going ling roach infestor. If not, it would require for zergs to get their spire up so much faster then normal
On November 09 2012 01:13 Zdrastochye wrote: Eh, keep fungal as is, remove IT and NP. Problem solved.
Not sure if trolling, but that is the complete opposite of what needs to be adressed.
Point being what people find discouraging about Infestors has changed with every passing month. Wait a bit longer and my post will be exactly what people are in line with fixing. At the end of the day Browder couldn't have been any clearer about waiting out the shit storm at least until HotS, no matter how many TL threads are made.
One additional change I would suggest is that fungal can damage but not root massive units. Also while typing I just thought of one more; fungal only prevents blink for 1.5sec. That would allow lings/roaches/banes to close the distance and get some hits in on stalkers, but not make it so if you hit a fungal on stalkers they are simply dead.
The real issue is that none of these threads really help at all. The OP usually doesn't know heads or tails of the game to be making balance discussions and this is no different.
You CAN'T discuss radical changes to the Infestor without first discussing all the other changes that would need to be made to various units to change the race itself so that its playable with the new changes.
Zerg's army power is directly related to its gas content. The later the game goes, the more important it is to have gas units in the composition. If you modify the infestor with pretty much any of the suggested nerfs I see in the OP, you'd have to make very significant changes to multiple other Zerg units to cover the huge hole that now exists.
Honestly its better to just let Blizz pump out HotS and Void and pick up the pieces of balance after all these radical changes we KNOW we can't avoid happening have already finished.
projectile fungal, slow instead of snare, 3 supply, terran eggs same HP, NP not able to target mothership, are good potential changes. the others are bad and would make the infestor far too terrible
On November 09 2012 01:13 Zdrastochye wrote: Eh, keep fungal as is, remove IT and NP. Problem solved.
Not sure if trolling, but that is the complete opposite of what needs to be adressed.
Point being what people find discouraging about Infestors has changed with every passing month. Wait a bit longer and my post will be exactly what people are in line with fixing. At the end of the day Browder couldn't have been any clearer about waiting out the shit storm at least until HotS, no matter how many TL threads are made.
People have bitched about fungal for a while, and now it's pretty clear why, and justified. Broodlord infestor is stupid, players win games they shouldn't because of it, terrans and protoss have no answer lategame unless they do a huge amount of damage in the midgame or the zerg screws up.
The biggest mess of all is PvZ and vortex. I can't stand watching any PvZ games anymore because everyone knows what's going to happen before the game even starts, I would have even stopped playing altogether if I didn't find out about Symbols Ultralisk ZvP style.
In sc2 comebacks should be about outplaying your opponent and pulling crazy tricks, not hold until you have enough broodlord infestors and win. Pros are complaining, random scrubs are complaining, spectators are complaining, even zergs are complaining about the mess that is fungal, something needs to be adressed fast.
On November 09 2012 00:54 ROOTT1 wrote: this is a delicate subject because overnerfing infestors would make zerg terrible o_o, tbh i think creep is as big of an issue if not even bigger than infestors currently are
1)infestors 3 supply (still not sure about this one) 2)0 armor infested terran eggs and have their hp carry over once they hatch (having their hp carry over might be too big of a nerf aswell, at the very least infested terran eggs should have 0 armor) 3)make interceptors immune to fungal (100%) 4)make the mothership immune to neural (100%)
both 3) and 4) are obviously pvz related , i think the biggest issue in tvz is that infested terrans are too cost efficient against mech and fungal is too cost efficient against bio.. balancing those 2 spells out while trying to maintain some sort of balance in zvp is going to be problematic =/
I agree with all of your suggestions, of course implementing all 4 at once would be too much so maybe 1-2 should be tested at first.
yea i also agree, i think minor changes should be done at first. thats why i think that my 3rd and 4th points are both quick & safe fixes that would help zvp in particular, while still maintaining the strength of infestors
that being said similar fixes need to occur in tvz and i honestly cant see that happening because their race lacks aoe in the early/middgame.. which is what u need against infestors. the main issue in tvz is that infested terrans are too cost efficient against mech and fungal is too cost efficient against bio, in order to fix these issues you have to tweak core spells and that would end up hurting z in zvp =/
terran requires more drastic nerfs because once you combine zerg units and infestors on creep it becomes an almost unmicroable scnario for terran. with protoss we have options in these type of situations because we can clear creep out much more efficiently(starting at the ~13min mark) and we can also control battles with forcefield.. which terran unfortunately cannot do
its funny because both terran and protoss have the exact opposite strenghts and weakness' against zerg : D, protoss is much better in the early/middgame vs zerg(due to the facility of controlling creep) but much worse in the lategame(due to the lack of cost efficient units). terran is worse vs zerg in the early/middgame(due to the inability of clearing creep and on-creep battle management) and much better in the lategame(due to cost effectiveness of raven/mech coupled with the strenght of mules and lack of scvs)
On November 09 2012 01:13 Zdrastochye wrote: Eh, keep fungal as is, remove IT and NP. Problem solved.
Not sure if trolling, but that is the complete opposite of what needs to be adressed.
Point being what people find discouraging about Infestors has changed with every passing month. Wait a bit longer and my post will be exactly what people are in line with fixing. At the end of the day Browder couldn't have been any clearer about waiting out the shit storm at least until HotS, no matter how many TL threads are made.
People have bitched about fungal for a while, and now it's pretty clear why, and justified. Broodlord infestor is stupid, players win games they shouldn't because of it, terrans and protoss have no answer lategame unless they do a huge amount of damage in the midgame or the zerg screws up.
The biggest mess of all is PvZ and vortex. I can't stand watching any PvZ games anymore because everyone knows what's going to happen before the game even starts, I would have even stopped playing altogether if I didn't find out about Symbols Ultralisk ZvP style.
In sc2 comebacks should be about outplaying your opponent and pulling crazy tricks, not hold until you have enough broodlord infestors and win. Pros are complaining, random scrubs are complaining, spectators are complaining, even zergs are complaining about the mess that is fungal, something needs to be adressed fast.
All that will change then, is that Protoss will be the ones holding off until they have their deathball that zergs can't handle, instead of vice versa. Just like it was before they buffed infestors to deal with this exact problem. The problem is a design problem that they never fixed.
Make hydras better, and make infestors take more supply. Then you can't mass infestor as much, and you won't WANT to mass infestor as much. If zerg has some viable anti air and anti other units which ISN'T infestors, then they won't need to build infestors.
Given that zergs aren't winning everything all the time, the infestor clearly isn't "too strong" in terms of making zerg as a whole overpowered, but it is too strong relative to other zerg units, which makes almost any other playstyle either pointless (e.g. hydra army) or just generally stupid (e.g. mutalisk) because they aren't as effective.
But you can't just take away infestors or make them significantly worse without giving some way to replace them, because that would just kill balance anyway in the other direction.
3 food infestors would held reduce the lategame which is imbalanced, and might not need any significant other changes, since then you can't build mass infestors and broodlords and have mass drones and other units. It also wouldn't hit the midgame too hard, because you often have some free food by the imfestor time.
On November 09 2012 00:54 ROOTT1 wrote: this is a delicate subject because overnerfing infestors would make zerg terrible o_o, tbh i think creep is as big of an issue if not even bigger than infestors currently are
1)infestors 3 supply (still not sure about this one) 2)0 armor infested terran eggs and have their hp carry over once they hatch 3)make interceptors immune to fungal 4)make the mothership immune to neural
"do infested terrans regain their health back once they hatch from the eggs?" - TT1 =)
egg has 100 hp, if you deal 20 dmg during egg (80/100 = 80% left) marine will spawn with 40 hp (50*0.8=40)
On November 09 2012 01:13 Zdrastochye wrote: Eh, keep fungal as is, remove IT and NP. Problem solved.
Not sure if trolling, but that is the complete opposite of what needs to be adressed.
Point being what people find discouraging about Infestors has changed with every passing month. Wait a bit longer and my post will be exactly what people are in line with fixing. At the end of the day Browder couldn't have been any clearer about waiting out the shit storm at least until HotS, no matter how many TL threads are made.
People have bitched about fungal for a while, and now it's pretty clear why, and justified. Broodlord infestor is stupid, players win games they shouldn't because of it, terrans and protoss have no answer lategame unless they do a huge amount of damage in the midgame or the zerg screws up.
The biggest mess of all is PvZ and vortex. I can't stand watching any PvZ games anymore because everyone knows what's going to happen before the game even starts, I would have even stopped playing altogether if I didn't find out about Symbols Ultralisk ZvP style.
In sc2 comebacks should be about outplaying your opponent and pulling crazy tricks, not hold until you have enough broodlord infestors and win. Pros are complaining, random scrubs are complaining, spectators are complaining, even zergs are complaining about the mess that is fungal, something needs to be adressed fast.
All that will change then, is that Protoss will be the ones holding off until they have their deathball that zergs can't handle, instead of vice versa. Just like it was before they buffed infestors to deal with this exact problem. The problem is a design problem that they never fixed.
A balance needs to be found, they don't have to nerf the infestor to the ground. I'd rather have the infestor nerfed so that vortex isn't needed anymore to have a chance against broodlord infestor and the mothership removed altogether. This won't happen, but imagine if fungal slowed instead and infestor cost 3 supply.
You would have less infestors, and stalkers on the edges of fungal could escape or try and snipe infestors. I think it's at least worth trying out.
edit :
On November 09 2012 01:46 PauseBreak wrote: Whereas most of the forums play Zerg its not surprising to see a lot of good changes being voted down.
It's the opposite actually, the good suggestions are being massively upvoted. If all those changes where applied at once you might as well remove the infestor and zerg.
On November 09 2012 01:48 Narw wrote: If infestors are changed (those big impact nerfs) without significant buffs to zerg tier 2 to compensate you might as well remove Zerg race from game.
Zerg units are NOT weak. I'm not sure how this crap got spread around. Last time I checked, Ling/Bane/Muta was ripping games apart. Those aren't even T3 units.
On November 09 2012 01:48 Narw wrote: If infestors are changed (those big impact nerfs) without significant buffs to zerg tier 2 to compensate you might as well remove Zerg race from game.
The problem is all of these are blanket nerfs. Late-game ZvX requires infestors. To simply nerf the unit you'll lose a considerable amount of balance that is currently in the game.
If fungal doesn't root (my favorite change) it also needs to do more damage
If fungal can't kill units, it should do more damage, or have a wider AoE
If you reduce the AoE, infestors need to have more survivability
If you reduce the mana upgrade, you need to reduce the cost of the pit itself, we're balanced on a knife's edge I feel as for how fast infestors can get out to fungal.
If neural parasite can't be used on massive units, then vortex needs to be completely changed (I think this is probably a good point in general)
If you make infestors more supply, they need to have more survivability, or be mildly more potent
I think infested terran egg change is 100% valid and wouldn't require any buff to compensate
Fungal becoming a projectile would need to make it more effective if it hit. If the projectile was too fast the change would be meaningless. If it was too slow then it would be too difficult to hit with for it's current effect.
Fungal affecting your own units could very well destroy the ling/infestor style of play, and I feel is a bad idea.
In general I agree, there needs to be a change. But I think it needs to be understood that this one overpowered unit is what makes Zerg viable. To simply nerf it could reset the meta to square 1.
Obviously this is the view of a non-pro, but the basic idea of balance is that as one thing gets harder to use or less efficient, to not tip the scales you need something else to be changed to compensate.
On November 09 2012 01:48 Narw wrote: If infestors are changed (those big impact nerfs) without significant buffs to zerg tier 2 to compensate you might as well remove Zerg race from game.
tell that to life and leenock.
Life is a heavy user of infestors, also based on your logic theres nothing wrong with infestors because MVP and TAEJA wins games anyway.
On November 08 2012 22:32 TheMooseHeed wrote: Any nerf but the supply increase pleeeease. Zerg hardly feels like a swarm anymore with so many 2+ supply units. Infestors are too strong yeah but some of these ideas arent well thought out and would have massive implications.
You think infestors walking around in a big, passive, non-attacking ball of spell casting feels like a swarm though?
Hence why I would accept any other realistic nerf to them to prevent this.
Any nerf to infestors requires a significant nerf of all terran and protoss units or a significant buff to all other zerg units. I mean compared to storm fungal is like a slight tickle. Cannot think anyone would rather have infestors with 0 energy than templars with 0 energy either.
I've never had problems against fungal. I have however had serious problems vs storm. I mean the dmg of fungal is laughable. Plz don't micro for one minute while I tickle you to death ^^ If you are getting neuraled you may want to stop watching streams and pleasuring yourself while you play.
Maybe instead of completely snaring units fungal could slow units and the longer the duration is on for the stronger the slow gets. This would create a pretty cool mechanic where people would try to micro their units before the fungal took full effect.
ex 10%-20%-30%-40% slow each second, or whatever is balanced
It would also kind of make sense as the fungal would be 'growing'
On November 09 2012 02:04 Swagasaurus wrote: Maybe instead of completely snaring units fungal could slow units and the longer the duration is on for the stronger the slow gets. This would create a pretty cool mechanic where people would try to micro their units before the fungal took full effect.
ex 10%-20%-30%-40% slow each second, or whatever is balanced
It would also kind of make sense as the fungal would be 'growing'
I like this idea alot, mostly because IT would look cool but also because it would still force quite a lot of extra apm, although if u want to slowdown pushes with fungals, u'd have to cast quite a lot of them
Infestor is fine. When u want to "change" him you have also to make something stronger. You can remove the snare but you ll have to make it deal more dmg. You can make the infestor itself weaker, but then youll have to make every zerg unit stronger. Choose your Destiny.
@ OP - can you please add a detailed summary section in your OP and update it w/ posts from progamers & other good suggestions? makes it easier to follow
On November 09 2012 01:38 Liman wrote: I dont know how infestor should be changed but i know it needs to be done.There are many good suggestions here.
PS. I love the way you guys discuss this topic.Its completely different then idiot fest on Blizz forums.
The blizz forums is where discussion goes to die.
How about changing the IT cost is an odd number (blizz likes to stick with multiples of 25). 50 might be too much for a IT, so why not try somewhere inbetween, 35, 40? It's not huge but it would make a difference. Say when all your energy is drained and your opponent is being very aggressive, you have to wait longer before having the energy to drop another IT.
Also here are 2 things I've been thinking about for the IT. It currently received +2 attack for each attack upgrade, change it to 1. And it has the same attack speed as a marine (0.86?), bump it up a little bit. Even up to 1.0 makes a difference, especially when you spit out 30-40 of them at a time in the lategame.
On November 09 2012 01:48 Narw wrote: If infestors are changed (those big impact nerfs) without significant buffs to zerg tier 2 to compensate you might as well remove Zerg race from game.
Zerg units are NOT weak. I'm not sure how this crap got spread around. Last time I checked, Ling/Bane/Muta was ripping games apart. Those aren't even T3 units.
200 supply ling bane muta cant even kill 200 supply bio mech, so what would happen to protoss deathball? You dont want to change fungal you want to remove zerg from the game.
I feel right now that the Infestor is too critical to a Zerg hive tech army too make any significant nerfs to it and for Zergs to still be competitive in the late game. The issue isn't fungal growth or even infested terrans, it's the fact that by the time the late game comes around a Zerg can amass 20-30 infestors (add Broodlords) which then becomes a composition that can kill pretty much any army in the game.
The reason it's so easy to mass Infestors is because with proper micro you can kill mid game armies from all three races by just trading energy. Over the course of the game the Infestor count is just going to spiral out of control.
There is a major design flaw of the Infestor in terms of it's tech level. It is a LAIR TECH unit! No Lair tech unit no matter how much should be able to defeat a maxed Tier 3 army from any race. The Infestor is a very powerful unit, which is fine I love watching very powerful units. However I think it's way to powerful to be a Lair tech and should be moved to Hive.
There is no mid game anymore for Zerg players, because why would you when you have the Infestor that kills everything. By moving Infestor's to Hive tech this will force Zerg players to spend minerals/gas instead of energy to fight in the mid game (thus reducing their strength of their Hive tech army). As of right now Lair tech units are way too weak to combat Terran and Protoss in the mid game.
Alright so change Hydras to be Tier 1. Hydra's are terrible in the mid game because by the time you can get them the opponent will already have Siege Tanks/Collosus out. Move Roaches to Lair tech, increase their cost but also increase their hp/armor to be able withstand Siege Tanks and Collosus volleys. Right now Roaches are useful in the beginning of the game but once the opponent gets one of these two units they suddenly become awful. Moving Hydras to Tier 1 will allow Zerg get a high hydra count in the mid game to deal with 2-base immortal/sentry allins from Protoss.
Basically I think a slight nerf to the Infestor won't really change the game significantly. And if you overnerf them Zerg will have no answer in the late game. But they're way to powerful to be used in the mid game.
I'm kind of liking the idea of fungal not immobilizing units, because it would allow for more micro and make chain fungaling stuff more difficult. so if a big marine pack gets hit, it's still very damaging, but it's not like "oh I guess I can just forget about those units now and watch them die". Instead you could try splitting those marines to make them use more energy or whatever. When it comes to protoss I'm really unsure how it will play out tho. I guess it would make air more viable since it wouldnt immobilize interceptors or voids completely... Not sure about stalkers.
Edit: And of course the big question is, how it would affect overall performance of zergs. Changing such a vital unit might have a pretty dramatic effect after all.
Whatever ideas for keeping fungal as a slow or a root just have to stop. As long as fungal is still a mass aoe stun/slow that does damage it doesn't matter what we do to it zerg will still mass fungal and broodlord infestor would still be broken. I recommend that instead of a root/slow, fungal should create and area where all units in that area would get a status effect that have their attack speed slowed by half for four seconds, essentially decreasing the dps of those units by half. This sort of fungal would also disable all abilities like blink for 4 seconds. You could still have the dot damage, but that wouldn't matter that much. Thus the utility of fungal would still be unchanged and it would still be useful to zerg offensively and defensively. The only difference would be that instead of being able to counter every unit, infestors would be able to support against fighting every unit. This sort of change would also create a more dynamic game AND discourage the use of deathballs since having units clumped in a deathball would decrease their overall dps by half. Afterwards, we could look at other units in the zerg army (ie hydras) to find ways to make them more viable. Just by making fungal a slow would not work. Fungal just has to be change completely, simple as that.
On November 09 2012 02:03 oZe wrote: Any nerf to infestors requires a significant nerf of all terran and protoss units or a significant buff to all other zerg units. I mean compared to storm fungal is like a slight tickle. Cannot think anyone would rather have infestors with 0 energy than templars with 0 energy either.
You're being silly. Don't be overdramatic about it. Looking at pure dps storm is better, but you can micro against storm why the full damage of a storm is never realized. In comparison fungal roots the enemy to the ground and is not hard to chain. Furthermore late game you got the combination of blords long range bombardement while locking units down to the ground.
I don't understand people saying that zerg is too weak mid-game with infestors nerfed. Zerg has several strong timings they can use against both protoss and terran to wreck damage midgame and with hots coming in the foreseeable future zerg gets a fairly strong midgame blord. Furthermore, nerfing infestors might allow buffing hydras which I think everybody would like to see happen (outside of zerg nydus hydra allin vs protoss maybe becoming too strong).
I'd like to see how a 3 supply infestor would change the game. It would reduce the power of infestors/bl lategame without being a massive nerf. I'd also like to see their size reduce a bit so they suffer more of EMP if they're clumped, which would also make the ghost better. Also make the ghost 150/150 or even 150/175 as terrans are more mineral starved than gas starved.
projectile slow, not root eggs same HP and infested terrans make it 3 supply instead of two. This wasn't an option but I think no neural on mothership. It's ridiculous that ultras can't be neuraled but mothership can.
All of those things combined are pretty huge nerfs to be honest. All of those things combined should probably result in a buff somewhere.
On November 09 2012 02:03 oZe wrote: Any nerf to infestors requires a significant nerf of all terran and protoss units or a significant buff to all other zerg units. I mean compared to storm fungal is like a slight tickle. Cannot think anyone would rather have infestors with 0 energy than templars with 0 energy either.
You're being silly. Don't be overdramatic about it. Looking at pure dps storm is better, but you can micro against storm why the full damage of a storm is never realized. In comparison fungal roots the enemy to the ground and is not hard to chain. Furthermore late game you got the combination of blords long range bombardement while locking units down to the ground.
I don't understand people saying that zerg is too weak mid-game with infestors nerfed. Zerg has several strong timings they can use against both protoss and terran to wreck damage midgame and with hots coming in the foreseeable future zerg gets a fairly strong midgame blord. Furthermore, nerfing infestors might allow buffing hydras which I think everybody would like to see happen (outside of zerg nydus hydra allin vs protoss maybe becoming too strong).
Didnt he say the same as you? (You need to change more than just the infestor when you change the infestor?)
On November 09 2012 02:23 nojok wrote: I'd like to see how a 3 supply infestor would change the game. It would reduce the power of infestors/bl lategame without being a massive nerf. I'd also like to see their size reduce a bit so they suffer more of EMP if they're clumped, which would also make the ghost better. Also make the ghost 150/150 or even 150/175 as terrans are more mineral starved than gas starved.
No thanks. Mass Ghosts is the only tiny hope in TvP lategame, don't take it from us.
Is pretty annoying to see the impunity of the infestor ball roaming the map without any other unit supporting them (fungal with slow will allow that impunity too).
TO THE OP: Please, please add a poll about if people prefer a huge balance change on infestor for hots, based on removing the "all around" status from them, but with a rework on other Z units, or a small balance change for WoL.
On November 09 2012 02:03 oZe wrote: Any nerf to infestors requires a significant nerf of all terran and protoss units or a significant buff to all other zerg units. I mean compared to storm fungal is like a slight tickle. Cannot think anyone would rather have infestors with 0 energy than templars with 0 energy either.
You're being silly. Don't be overdramatic about it. Looking at pure dps storm is better, but you can micro against storm why the full damage of a storm is never realized. In comparison fungal roots the enemy to the ground and is not hard to chain. Furthermore late game you got the combination of blords long range bombardement while locking units down to the ground.
I don't understand people saying that zerg is too weak mid-game with infestors nerfed. Zerg has several strong timings they can use against both protoss and terran to wreck damage midgame and with hots coming in the foreseeable future zerg gets a fairly strong midgame blord. Furthermore, nerfing infestors might allow buffing hydras which I think everybody would like to see happen (outside of zerg nydus hydra allin vs protoss maybe becoming too strong).
Didnt he say the same as you? (You need to change more than just the infestor when you change the infestor?)
It's in the wording, he downplays how powerful infestors are with poor comparisons to storm (that stuff terrans has learned to deal fairly well with snipe/EMP and micro) and 0 energy HTs. Furthermore he comes into this assuming that protoss and terran has to receive a big counternerf if the infestors are nerfed. I refer to hots providing new units that might fill the gap a infestor nerf might leave and suggest making hydras more useful midgame, perhaps with a pre-hive speedboost.
Eh, I think infested Terran damage should be cut down and fungal damage should be cut WAY down...it already freezes you in an unfavorable position, is doing damage really necessary?
Or just screw the whole thing and bring back PLAYGU as so many are suggesting.
On November 09 2012 02:23 nojok wrote: I'd like to see how a 3 supply infestor would change the game. It would reduce the power of infestors/bl lategame without being a massive nerf. I'd also like to see their size reduce a bit so they suffer more of EMP if they're clumped, which would also make the ghost better. Also make the ghost 150/150 or even 150/175 as terrans are more mineral starved than gas starved.
That would be a flat out mech nerf, and ghosts function super well with mech.
On November 09 2012 01:48 Narw wrote: If infestors are changed (those big impact nerfs) without significant buffs to zerg tier 2 to compensate you might as well remove Zerg race from game.
Zerg units are NOT weak. I'm not sure how this crap got spread around. Last time I checked, Ling/Bane/Muta was ripping games apart. Those aren't even T3 units.
200 supply ling bane muta cant even kill 200 supply bio mech, so what would happen to protoss deathball? You dont want to change fungal you want to remove zerg from the game.
This is false and is an opinion. Please show us all facts on your statement.
Only viable change would be change from stop to slow. If you change anything else the ability is basically useless. For all you guys saying they want Plague instead of fungal you must not have played BW because toss would cry buckets. These days 1 plague would hit an entire death ball and put all the units so low the fight wouldn't be close. I'll take plague in a heart beat.
On November 09 2012 01:48 Narw wrote: If infestors are changed (those big impact nerfs) without significant buffs to zerg tier 2 to compensate you might as well remove Zerg race from game.
Zerg units are NOT weak. I'm not sure how this crap got spread around. Last time I checked, Ling/Bane/Muta was ripping games apart. Those aren't even T3 units.
200 supply ling bane muta cant even kill 200 supply bio mech, so what would happen to protoss deathball? You dont want to change fungal you want to remove zerg from the game.
This is false and is an opinion. Please show us all facts on your statement.
No this is truth Muta ling bane past mid game is trash once marines are 3-3 and tanks 1 shot lings it is useless.
1- Seems legit as the most powerful things from fungal is the root effect 2- So 2 fungals only get a clump of marines to 1 hp... useless 3- Fungal main role is to deal with a lot of units at the same time so this change would pretty much kill that 4- If we are gonna remove infestor energy, might as well remove all energy upgrades in the game. Ghosts cant keep it if templar and festor cant have it 5- Mothership is the only unit that should be immune to neural. If you make it so massive cant get neuraled, might as well remove the spell sompletly as noone EVER uses it on tanks/immortals as it is useless, dangerous and will not change anything in the battle. 6- Yes. 2 supply for the best unit in the game is wayyyyy to cheap. 7- Sure, im curious to see how this would work out. 8- Nope, unless it is very VERY slow, i dont see people able to dodge it anyway in a tense battle. Try splitting your marines during the 0.5 seconds of the fungal travel and see what I mean. You wont dodge shit unless you are Flash. 9- Completly kills zergling/infestors strategy, so no. Big nono here.
Change fungal only to air and massive and make that stackable: - vs air 75% slow - vs massive 75% slow - vs massive air 50% slow - vs everything else immobilize
As far as I know, this is not how Blizzard works. WE give the feedback, THEY come up with the changes and tweaks. This thread may or may not be pointless, but please go on. We definitely need more threads about infestors.
On November 08 2012 23:59 budar wrote: I'm a Zerg player but I'll try to be as unbiased as possible. Nerfing the infestor needs to be done very carefully because of one fact that doesn't get mentioned enough: the infestor is the core unit of the Zerg race. Yes, you read that right. The thing is, the core unit of a race (from what we know from past RTS experience) absolutely must be able to attack both ground and air. Since hydras are very specialized (and awful) units, they are not an option. Infestors can "attack" both ground and air with both fungal and IT.
That said, some of these suggestions are OK, but taking even a small number of them at the same time will in my opinion be a major overnerf. What I'd like to see is a more elaborate change to zerg as a whole that would include the infestor change as well. As that will not happen before HotS, it's pretty pointless to change anything now.
On November 09 2012 01:48 Narw wrote: If infestors are changed (those big impact nerfs) without significant buffs to zerg tier 2 to compensate you might as well remove Zerg race from game.
Zerg units are NOT weak. I'm not sure how this crap got spread around. Last time I checked, Ling/Bane/Muta was ripping games apart. Those aren't even T3 units.
200 supply ling bane muta cant even kill 200 supply bio mech, so what would happen to protoss deathball? You dont want to change fungal you want to remove zerg from the game.
This is false and is an opinion. Please show us all facts on your statement.
You actually just have to start a unit tester. Ranged units always fight more effiecient in a critical number. Why didnt you make your homework sir?Where are your "facts"? (pretty funny u are using that term since starcraft isnt a science, lol) And mobillity is also not a factor since Terran can split their Bio Mech balls up if enough supply and defend and still kill the zerg, because Marine Tank IS so efficient. QXC mentioned it also in some podcast and its actually common knowledge when you play TvZ. Also zergs cant just smash terrans before that happens, because terran is always stronger in defending due to planetarys, wall ins and bunkers.
I think infestors should have their model size reduced. The way zergs are able to just ball them up without fear of EMP/splash is kinda sad compared to the way ghosts and HTs are. It encourages spreading, and somewhat buffs EMP for terran by letting it hit a higher number of infestors per cast. One EMP can ruin a protoss army if he doesn't split his HTs. Clumped up Ghosts can get destroyed by colossus. It should be the same for zerg with infestors.
On November 08 2012 19:30 Tsubbi wrote: why was balance talk like this always frowned upon, but now that zerg is doing better for the first time in wol lifetime even mods jump in on every thread and support things like this?
also lr threads are just insane lately, so much balance whine and almost no bans
korean winrates are still pretty close to 50% and its nowhere near as bad as terran domination in the last 2 years
So far in GSL, TvZ is 32.6% (14W / 29L), but then again it's a small sample.
ofc its lopsided this season, but then again its the first season EVER that zerg has the most players in ro16 and the second time ever that zerg is not the least represented race in ro16
also last month korean tlpd shows a 60% winrate favoring terran in tvz
it just seems that especially terrans are so used to dominating especially in korea that being below 50% for even just a month is unacceptable
pvz whine especially is just crazy, protoss had higher pvz winrates in korea in every month so far of 2012 except april
Look at HOW those PvZ were won. You'll see a ton of 2-base-allins and veeeery few lategame wins. Protoss basically HAS to allin to really have a good shot.
thats just not true
also balance is about winrates, your complaining about design
basically your saying protoss wins more but their wins should also be prettier
This is an incorrect way of thinking.
If I win 100 games and lose 100 games in PvZ, the game is balanced?
What if all 100 games I won were before the 11 minute mark, and all 100 losses were after the 11 minute mark? Would that not suggest there is a problem? We, as a community, have accepted that greedy 3 hatch/3 CC/3 Nexus in the first 5 minutes should be standard... and that is wrong. It's an economic cheese opening.
Ultimately, the fix to Infestors is getting rid of the upgrade for the energy. During that upgrade, Zergs can get another 8-10 drones and then on the next wave of larvae, pop down 6-8 infestors. If you switched it around and forced the zerg to go 6-8 Infestors first so they build up energy, that would balance the game more imo..
On November 09 2012 03:07 Godwrath wrote: Wouldn't be better to tone down infestors and buff Hidralisks to the point they are a core zerg unit ?
I am thinking on hidra's cost and mobility outside creep like the bigger issues.
I love that thought too (especially the gas costs are high for a mobile "base racy" unit). The problem is no one ever would build broodlords since they would even die to blink stalker colossus without fungal snaring stalkers. And they are supposed to be stronger since they are higher tech, less mobile, gas heavy and more expensive.
On November 09 2012 03:07 Godwrath wrote: Wouldn't be better to tone down infestors and buff Hidralisks to the point they are a core zerg unit ?
I am thinking on hidra's cost and mobility outside creep like the bigger issues.
I love that thought too (especially the gas costs are high for a mobile "base racy" unit). The problem is no one ever would build broodlords since they would even die to blink stalker colossus without fungal snaring stalkers.
Erhm... not being core doesn't mean you shouldn't have a few infestors on your lategame composition.
I think 3 supply infestor, slow instead of immobilize and if they dont change that then make it so fungal cant kill. That way infestors couldnt catch a group of 50 marines or banshees, pheonix, zealots ect and fungal them all down without actually risking some units.
also no parasite on mothership... although Im not sure how zerg would beat mass mech thor banshee hellion viking without neural affecting thors... its hard to survive to that point, but once you hit that critical mass of thors its very hard for a zerg to beat it even with broodlord infestor.
one of the biggest things with the infestor (or well, BL-infestor) is that both broodlings and infested terrans cost 0 supply yet carry upgrades. I do not understand why zerg gets an infinite stream of 3-3 units beyond the 200 supply cap. If ITs and broodlings were 0-0, they would still be strong, but it wouldn't feel as much like zerg just doesn't have a supply cap.
On November 09 2012 03:17 Trund wrote: imo; either change the root to a slow, 30-50%. OR keep the root and reduce (if not completely remove) the damage
On November 09 2012 01:48 Narw wrote: If infestors are changed (those big impact nerfs) without significant buffs to zerg tier 2 to compensate you might as well remove Zerg race from game.
Zerg units are NOT weak. I'm not sure how this crap got spread around. Last time I checked, Ling/Bane/Muta was ripping games apart. Those aren't even T3 units.
200 supply ling bane muta cant even kill 200 supply bio mech, so what would happen to protoss deathball? You dont want to change fungal you want to remove zerg from the game.
This is false and is an opinion. Please show us all facts on your statement.
You actually just have to start a unit tester. Ranged units always fight more effiecient in a critical number. Why didnt you make your homework sir?Where are your "facts"? (pretty funny u are using that term since starcraft isnt a science, lol) And mobillity is also not a factor since Terran can split their Bio Mech balls up if enough supply and defend and still kill the zerg, because Marine Tank IS so efficient. QXC mentioned it also in some podcast and its actually common knowledge when you play TvZ. Also zergs cant just smash terrans before that happens, because terran is always stronger in defending due to planetarys, wall ins and bunkers.
Units tester doesn't tell the whole story. Zergs might have "weaker" units (which is very arguable since cracklings can break bio-tank lines -.-), but keep in mind that zergs have better macro mechanics (mass production, easy expansion). If zergs have equal cost-eficient units and on top of that better macro mechanics, then something is broken.
On November 09 2012 03:14 Darpa wrote: I think 3 supply infestor, slow instead of immobilize and if they dont change that then make it so fungal cant kill. That way infestors couldnt catch a group of 50 marines or banshees, pheonix, zealots ect and fungal them all down without actually risking some units.
also no parasite on mothership... although Im not sure how zerg would beat mass mech thor banshee hellion viking without neural affecting thors... its hard to survive to that point, but once you hit that critical mass of thors its very hard for a zerg to beat it even with broodlord infestor.
You don't make Thors en masse to deal with BLs because high BLs counts easily win, especially with Queen support (Broodlings preventing some of the Thors from reaching BLs, Transfuse negating the slow damage coming from the Thors, etc.). Fighting high BLs/Corruptors/Infestors counts without Ravens is hopeless.
I hate to repeat myself again, but no matter how we change the size, supply or cost of the infestor, and change fungal from a root to a slow, it still wouldn't change the utility of the infestor and zerg would still over rely on it. We need to change fungal itself. Repeating what I said earlier my suggested changes to fungal would be:
1. Fungal would create a field where all units within that field and that walk in that field would get a "fungal" status effect
2. This status effect would effectively decrease the attack speed by half, effectively decreasing the dps of those units by half
3. In addition to decreasing the dps by half, it would also make it so that the units would not be able to use their abilities (ie, blink, etc.) for a certain amount of time
At this point it wouldn't matter if the fungal did damage or not, it would essential provide the same utilities that the current infestor does offensively and defensively. It would also decrease the use of deathballs because if the opponent tried to put their units in a deathball the dps of that deathball would essential be halved. This would only decrease the need for having an army filled with infestors, since a small group would be able to provide all the utility you need. After this, THEN we could take a look at strengthening zerg units accordingly, especially anti-air (such as the hydra). We have to accept that a mass aoe slow/root doesn't belong in an rts such a Starcraft 2, especially when that can be complement by free units with large amounts of dps. We have to think of ways that make Starcraft 2 dynamic, not make the undynamic aspects of SC2 worse.
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading.
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
The slow would probably be the best thing to try out in HotS. Fungal IMO is primarily deadly because it allows for an infinite chain fungal (only limit is energy) and the complete immobilization lets other Zerg units wreck total havoc.
That said, I wonder if it might be a good idea if Fungal did not snare Mechanical units (at all). Biological units such as Marines, Mutas and Zealots would suffer the full effects, but units such as Vikings, Thors, Interceptors and Stalkers would only take damage without being snared. This would allow for some adjustment to an Infestor play without making it weaker across the board.
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading.
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
I read through this change and... I agree. The difficulty with nerfing the infestor is that it is the proper response to things like blink-stalkers, MMM, mass ling... if we nerf the infestor how does zerg deal with things like mass blink stalker?
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
No, no, no, no NO. Look, I respect you for all you've done Mr. Bitter but that is just wrong. We have to look at ways to make the game DYNAMIC, not increase the "coinflippish" nature that SC2 already is. All the proposed changes in this thread still wouldn't change the fact that zerg would STILL mass infestor and rely on fungal for it's utility. One can already see with HOTS tempest templar WITH the oracle (long range, aoe damage, aoe slow) is the new broodlord infestor. Increasing the range of those spell casters you listed would just make things worse. Making fungals slow or making more hard counters to infestor DOESN'T WORK. Instead we have to change the utility of fungal once and for all, and I've already listed the changes I'd like to see twice already T___T.
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading.
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
This is good, but I think it would be better if the range on IT and Fungal were slightly reduced, making infestors slightly more vulnerable. I don't like the idea of only one unit being the counter to another unit.
Also, a nerf to the infestor should be coupled with a buff to hydra by increaing its life or something along those lines
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading.
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
This will have terrible spill over effects in TvP.
Mech will be even less viable due to increased feedback range, medivac drops are easier to defend, same with Raven / Cloaked Banshee.
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading.
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
It would just increase the "vortex or neuro" syndrome, with a single (miss-) click becoming even more important than it is. I don't want to see casters play an even bigger role, at this rate the fighting units will become just meatshield for casters. It's sc2, not wc3 or some games decided by spells. On top of that, it would only increase the number of casters produced in a single game and the boring factor brought by fungal (root) would remain persistent. Plus I'm getting tired of all these units with sick ass range we're seeing in HotS, soon the siege tank will be considered a medium ranged unit T_T
On the topic of burrow, anybody with access to the image files can verify that burrowed units ripple equally as DTs / cloaked banshees / observers? Doesn't seem as obvious.
Two things : - Fungal growth roots on creep, slows massively otherwise (50%) - Very slight nerf to infested terrans. Eggs with same HP as infested terran looks fine to me
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading.
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
Probably the best "non nerf" idea I've heard! Thanks MrB :D
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading.
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
Actually this is a really interesting way of balancing the game. Instead of nerfing units, you buff other ones.
The feedback/snipe idea is an interesting one. It's not like that'll have much effect on much. Hts can snipe ravens or queens more easily? Well I doubt that'll be a problem. Ghosts are going to.. snipe more zealots? marines? Not worred about that.
The only thing that'll change (as far as I'm thinking) is HT vs ghost battles. Currently I believe snipe has 0.5 longer range than feedback, and that's partly because it has a delay, whereas fedback does not.
On November 09 2012 04:19 Zenbrez wrote: The feedback/snipe idea is an interesting one. It's not like that'll have much effect on much. Hts can snipe ravens or queens more easily? Well I doubt that'll be a problem. Ghosts are going to.. snipe more zealots? marines? Not worred about that.
The only thing that'll change (as far as I'm thinking) is HT vs ghost battles. Currently I believe snipe has 0.5 longer range than feedback, and that's partly because it has a delay, whereas fedback does not.
I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves.
On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote: I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves.
This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into.
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading.
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
Actually this is a really interesting way of balancing the game. Instead of nerfing units, you buff other ones.
You guys seriously didn't think this through.
The whole point caster vs infestors is not about "not getting the snipes" is that ghosts and HT's are specialized casters, they can't be the core of your army like infestors are. You have a limited amount of them on your army. Buffing snipe and feedback, would actually change the PvT match up in a bad way, making easier for the protoss to hold any kind of air harassment play.
That change wouldn't make the infestor less "core", it would make the other two casters a bit better at countering them, in the case of the ghost, the primary reason is because outside sniping infestors, they don't have any other purpose, and any tech switch will get rid of them.
Maybe it's just me, but infestors shouldn't be a core unit of an army in the very first place.
On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote: I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves.
This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into.
I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no?
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading.
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
I really like this suggestion. Usually they don't nerf the problem, they buff it's counter to keep the game balanced. if you nerf fungal or burrow or IT then you effectively destroy all zerg builds. instead, forcing zergs to use good control, positioning and micro by buffing snipe/feedback then you will have your answer
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading.
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
Actually this is a really interesting way of balancing the game. Instead of nerfing units, you buff other ones.
You guys seriously didn't think this through.
The whole point caster vs infestors is not about "not getting the snipes" is that ghosts and HT's are specialized casters, they can't be the core of your army like infestors are. You have a limited amount of them on your army. Buffing snipe and feedback, would actually change the PvT match up in a bad way, making easier for the protoss to hold any kind of air harassment play.
That change wouldn't make the infestor less "core", it would make the other two casters a bit better at countering them, in the case of the ghost, the primary reason is because outside sniping infestors, they don't have any other purpose, and any tech switch will get rid of them.
Maybe it's just me, but infestors shouldn't be a core unit of an army in the very first place.
Then buff hydra's or something so that can be the core of the zerg army (like it should).
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading.
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
Actually this is a really interesting way of balancing the game. Instead of nerfing units, you buff other ones.
You guys seriously didn't think this through.
The whole point caster vs infestors is not about "not getting the snipes" is that ghosts and HT's are specialized casters, they can't be the core of your army like infestors are. You have a limited amount of them on your army. Buffing snipe and feedback, would actually change the PvT match up in a bad way, making easier for the protoss to hold any kind of air harassment play.
That change wouldn't make the infestor less "core", it would make the other two casters a bit better at countering them, in the case of the ghost, the primary reason is because outside sniping infestors, they don't have any other purpose, and any tech switch will get rid of them. Maybe it's just me, but infestors shouldn't be a core unit of an army in the very first place.
Agreed, same reason why ghost was nerfed back when lategame Terrans were getting 25 of them.
On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote: I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves.
This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into.
I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no?
I want infestors to be nerfed in a way that puts emphasis on the core units and proper larvae management. Right now there's no disadvantage that outstrips the advantage of making 35-40 infestors. But we rarely see hydras and ultralisks in any matchup besides ZvZ these days.
Templar weren't used in PvZ in general besides turtling on Entombed Valley, fighting off mutalisk play, and a few specific archon timing pushes. That is based on the bad design of Protoss.
On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote: I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves.
This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into.
I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no?
I want infestors to be nerfed in a way that puts emphasis on the core units and proper larvae management. Right now there's no disadvantage that outstrips the advantage of making 35-40 infestors. But we rarely see hydras and ultralisks in any matchup besides ZvZ these days.
Templar weren't used in PvZ in general besides turtling on Entombed Valley and a few specific archon timing pushes. That is based on the bad design of Protoss.
On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote: I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves.
This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into.
I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no?
I want infestors to be nerfed in a way that puts emphasis on the core units and proper larvae management. Right now there's no disadvantage that outstrips the advantage of making 35-40 infestors. But we rarely see hydras and ultralisks in any matchup besides ZvZ these days.
Templar weren't used in PvZ in general besides turtling on Entombed Valley and a few specific archon timing pushes. That is based on the bad design of Protoss.
I would like that also, but the core units are very bad right now, and the infestor makes up for them. Something else would need to be buffed to compensate. I haven't been reading your posts so you probably said this already, just making sure.
On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote: I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves.
This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into.
I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no?
I want infestors to be nerfed in a way that puts emphasis on the core units and proper larvae management. Right now there's no disadvantage that outstrips the advantage of making 35-40 infestors. But we rarely see hydras and ultralisks in any matchup besides ZvZ these days.
Templar weren't used in PvZ in general besides turtling on Entombed Valley and a few specific archon timing pushes. That is based on the bad design of Protoss.
I would like that also, but the core units are very bad right now, and the infestor makes up for them. Something else would need to be buffed to compensate. I haven't been reading your posts so you probably said this already, just making sure.
I don't think nerfs to the Infestor will help to balance this game since the current use of Infestors exposes the weaknesses of all three races. Protoss still has a timer before they can access templar/colossi. Zerg still has butt options from lair tech that don't translate into hive tech. Terran still lacks options to harass and push with mech. Upgraded zerglings are pretty damn good though.
On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote: I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves.
This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into.
I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no?
I want infestors to be nerfed in a way that puts emphasis on the core units and proper larvae management. Right now there's no disadvantage that outstrips the advantage of making 35-40 infestors. But we rarely see hydras and ultralisks in any matchup besides ZvZ these days.
Templar weren't used in PvZ in general besides turtling on Entombed Valley and a few specific archon timing pushes. That is based on the bad design of Protoss.
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading.
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
Cool post Mr Bitter. I think you're on the right track with your thinking. I don't think Zerg is far off the mark of balance, and as you say, it's only specific situations where the zerg gets a chance to "fort up" and become impossible to attack into. Drastic changes to the infestor would probably be distasterous to the zerg in the mid game when infestors are really the only defence a zerg has against various P and T timings.
Increasing the range of HT and ghosts would help for sure, but perhaps decreasing the speed of infestors could also be a good method of reducing their effectiveness. There's very few things in the game that are as adapt at escaping conflicts, and as such, are a low risk / high reward unit in the mid game. If more of them were killed in the mid game from not being able to retreat effectively, it might be harder to amass that huge 30+ infestor ball of death for the late game.
Also a slower speed would make it harder for zergs to defend multiple areas at once. Often times a P or T will try to attack one side, then retreat and try to take advantage of the broodlords lower mobility on the other side of the map. This is effective to a point, but infestors can often match the speed of the other army on creep, and delay them with fungal until the long range broodlords can catch up and start trouble....particularly when they're all hiding behind a huge spine wall.
On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote: I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves.
This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into.
I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no?
I want infestors to be nerfed in a way that puts emphasis on the core units and proper larvae management. Right now there's no disadvantage that outstrips the advantage of making 35-40 infestors. But we rarely see hydras and ultralisks in any matchup besides ZvZ these days.
Templar weren't used in PvZ in general besides turtling on Entombed Valley and a few specific archon timing pushes. That is based on the bad design of Protoss.
I would like that also, but the core units are very bad right now, and the infestor makes up for them. Something else would need to be buffed to compensate. I haven't been reading your posts so you probably said this already, just making sure.
I don't think nerfs to the Infestor will help to balance this game since the current use of Infestors exposes the weaknesses of all three races. Protoss still has a timer before they can access templar/colossi. Zerg still has butt options from lair tech that don't translate into hive tech. Terran still lacks options to harass and push with mech. Upgraded zerglings are pretty damn good though.
On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote: I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves.
This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into.
I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no?
I want infestors to be nerfed in a way that puts emphasis on the core units and proper larvae management. Right now there's no disadvantage that outstrips the advantage of making 35-40 infestors. But we rarely see hydras and ultralisks in any matchup besides ZvZ these days.
Templar weren't used in PvZ in general besides turtling on Entombed Valley and a few specific archon timing pushes. That is based on the bad design of Protoss.
really?
I see ultras used quite a bit in ZvT/TvZ
Far less than Broodlords.
Ultras had a moment where they were frequently used, then somewhat recently Zerg's rediscovered how good brood/fester is. I think the initial change was because it's easier to make ultras, where as broods you need time to build the army (timing can sometimes be risky)
Make fungal growth a combination of plague and ensnare from broodwar (they were both projectiles). Decrease DPS, no effect on protoss shields, non lethal. Make effects last longer, more DOT not sudden DPS
On November 08 2012 19:30 Tsubbi wrote: why was balance talk like this always frowned upon, but now that zerg is doing better for the first time in wol lifetime even mods jump in on every thread and support things like this?
also lr threads are just insane lately, so much balance whine and almost no bans
korean winrates are still pretty close to 50% and its nowhere near as bad as terran domination in the last 2 years
Probably because no one wants to watch this game slowly die to obvious balance issues.
I can see a combination of reduced AoE, no effect on Motherships and supply up to 3, most of these other nerfs are bad ideas or just too strong of a nerf (like no damage or no immobilization). Otherwise, a better way for other races to counter them would be good too.
I'd like to see fungal changed to 50% slow and cast as a projectile, and also see IT energy cost doubled. I think neural is fine as it is. Friendly fire would also be good, it's pretty anomalous that you can storm/EMP/seeker missile your own stuff but fungal doesn't do the same. A smaller unit size to increase vulnerability to EMP is also a good idea. Ever since Blizzard over-nerfed snipe, the ghost has lost all utility against hive tech units and getting high numbers to combat high infestor numbers is a bad investment.
Coupled with this nerf I'd like to see hydra cost and DPS reduced to see if that might help it find a place in matchups outside of ZvZ.
On November 09 2012 05:13 fighter2_40 wrote: Make fungal growth a combination of plague and ensnare from broodwar (they were both projectiles). Decrease DPS, no effect on protoss shields, non lethal. Make effects last longer, more DOT not sudden DPS
Pretty sure plague was not a projectile. Ensnare was.
infestor 3 supply and fungal slows. 50% prolly enough. could also say that blink still works but only half the distance. haha.
I don't like infested terrans costing supply, even tho it would help significantly nerfing zerg's 200 200 army, which is important, I think it's a bit too much to make it impossible to cast even a single infested terran when you're at supply limit. it also seems to especially hurt the harassment aspect of the infestor, which I personally find to be the one area where they're not hurting the game.
it could see a mana requirement increase though, and maybe other stats adjustments.
I like MrBitters proposal, but instead of buffing the ghost and high templar I'd say we nerf fungal growth range by 1 or 2 and make the infestor itself smaller by like 10 or 20%. This way infestors have to expose themself more in order to cast fungal, thus lowering their insane survivability. They essentially become more like their nephews the ghost and high templar. Tank splash damage, emp and storm will be more powerful against smaller, clumped infestors, so you'll have to split them more like you do with ghosts and high templars. Also chain fungals will be harder when the fungal'd units are close to allied support.
One thing I'd like (and sorry if this has already been mentioned) is more obvious team colours on infested terrans and some kind of team colour on the infested terran eggs. I have seen a few ZvZ games where both players have infestors and when infested terran eggs are thrown out I don't know whose they are.
The only thing that i want to change is making fungal a slow, and not a total shutdown of micro as it is now. Thats the only thing i want, i guess i want the same thing for force fields, but that for another topic.
On November 09 2012 07:11 Champloo wrote: I don't think polls on here will do much, cause like 60 % of the people here play zerg nowadays anyway.
And yet 83% voted for a slow instead of snare on fungal and 79% for the infestor costing 3 supply, which are the two nerfs that make the most sense. If you want to bitch about something don't do it in a thread that shows the complete opposite of what you are complaining about right in it's first post.
On November 08 2012 18:40 Fuzer wrote: Change infested terran egg to light armor and give it same amount of hp as infested terran intself instead of 100, so its actually usefull to focus eggs before they spawn.
Make the infestor size smaller so I can emp / 8 of them with 1 EMP instead of 3.
you're complaining that you can't snipe 3 enemy spell casters w/ 1 spell instead of 8?...
The question regarding neural parasite is ill phrased and the answer is ambiguous. If you want the neural parasite to be changed you can answer either "No, it shouldn't be able to target massive units", or "Yes, I agree with that statement"
I would prefer to see: Infestors being 3 supply, ITs costing supply (at least 0.5 would be reasonable) and possibly changing Fungal to a projectile.
At this point, Infestors are simply too easy to mass up and replace a "real army" because of their high utility spells which I really do not see other races with. By making them 3 supply, it erases any potential to make pure/mostly Infestor which I think is the main problem with the Hive Zerg metagame currently. It also forces a Zerg to be more intelligent with their compositions, because it adds a second dimension to simply massing up Infestor/BL/Corruptor armies. Simply put, when Infestors are 3 supply, it will change the mechanics of a unit which is far too easy to mass and destroy the opponent.
If ITs cost some supply, it balances the whole mechanic of "Throw beach balls everywhere" because no longer can a Hive Zerg create an instant army with incredible DPS and sheer quantity for mere energy (which is only costs time). This will also stop mass Infestor to a point because Zergs can no longer make nothing more than Infestors and expect to spam an army because a) Forces a Zerg to be thoughtful on their energy usage of Infestors b) Zergs are now more conscious on their massing of Infestors as spamming ITs is no longer a viable strategy
Fungal as a projectile would balance out the spells I feel, because it seems strange how Terrans and Protoss have dodgable spells (e.g Psi Storm and EMP), but the most used spellcaster (which almost has an entire composition based around it) has un-dodgable spells. A projectile would actually force more micro and change the deathball mechanic to a certain point as Protosses now have a real need to split their army constantly to dodge the projectile. Terrans have always split their Bio, so it should be not a major change for Terrans.
Overall, I think that Infestors as some have stated; a mechanic change, not a balance change. With some tinkering around, the late-game Zerg match-up can be made enjoyable on all races, without needing to fundamentally chance the Zerg race or Hive tech.
On November 08 2012 18:40 Fuzer wrote: Change infested terran egg to light armor and give it same amount of hp as infested terran intself instead of 100, so its actually usefull to focus eggs before they spawn.
Make the infestor size smaller so I can emp / 8 of them with 1 EMP instead of 3.
you're complaining that you can't snipe 3 enemy spell casters w/ 1 spell instead of 8?...
emp doesn't do any damage to the infestors... 1 fungal on your ghosts and gg 12 ghosts.
These polls are essentially worthless because a basic question is missing entirely, "Should Infestors be changed?" This is basically an account of everyone who believes it should be changed, thus, there is no opposite representation which degrades these questions entirely and is completely bias.
On November 08 2012 18:40 Fuzer wrote: Change infested terran egg to light armor and give it same amount of hp as infested terran intself instead of 100, so its actually usefull to focus eggs before they spawn.
Make the infestor size smaller so I can emp / 8 of them with 1 EMP instead of 3.
you're complaining that you can't snipe 3 enemy spell casters w/ 1 spell instead of 8?...
emp doesn't do any damage to the infestors... 1 fungal on your ghosts and gg 12 ghosts.
I would like to see a nerf to fungals damage to armoured units, along with a slight buff to the bonus damage given by upgrades to mutas, coupled with a slight buff to hydras. This would result in changing the mass roach infestor meta game, buff mech in tvz (might need to change IT's along with this, along with allowing zerg to go for more diversity in the mid game (hydra, muta play is better). I dont think you can just go ahead and nerf infestors without buffing zer a bit somewhere else, or you will just cripple them somewhere else. I'm also opposed to chanving fungal to a projectile, banelings can offten be out microed, and without fungal how it is zerg will be demolished by mass marine along with a lot of protoss all-ins
On November 09 2012 10:39 ArcticMuse wrote: I would like to see a nerf to fungals damage to armoured units, along with a slight buff to the bonus damage given by upgrades to mutas, coupled with a slight buff to hydras. This would result in changing the mass roach infestor meta game, buff mech in tvz (might need to change IT's along with this, along with allowing zerg to go for more diversity in the mid game (hydra, muta play is better). I dont think you can just go ahead and nerf infestors without buffing zer a bit somewhere else, or you will just cripple them somewhere else. I'm also opposed to chanving fungal to a projectile, banelings can offten be out microed, and without fungal how it is zerg will be demolished by mass marine along with a lot of protoss all-ins
Do not buff mutas, Muta play in PvZ is strong enough as it is.
Wow you guys are going bonkers with these change proposals. Changing fungal from stun to slow would make a huuuge difference by itself. They should start with that one change then see if it becomes better. And please no more "but but, you can mass just infestors QQQQ".. blink stalkers? Plus mass infestor balls have huuuge flaws, not sure why everyone is saying that's so OP.
IMO buff zergling HP and size a fraction (like 5-10%)
Fungal is pretty much a crutch zerg leans on to deal with the mid to late gameT and P (and Z actually) tightly balled packs of units which would crush anything zerg has if not for fungal.
Both zlings and infestors are used throughout every matchup (more or less) and so if you nerf infestors then zlings are a great candidate for buffing. Just make them last another second or two in the big battles and if fungal is changed to something like a slow instead of snare, then that probably would work out pretty well for balance. The only issue really is stuff like 6pools, but if spawning pool build time is increased it can make up the difference.
Fungal immobilises on creep, slows off creep. Pathogen Glands removed, new upgrade added to allow burrow movement and infested terran use while burrowed.
Voted yes for everything except the final one. Not hitting your own units is a sign of synergy, and I'd enjoy the slow+zergling attack synergy. Yes, I hate infestors that much. Unable to think rationally atm, but it's pretty much indisputable that infestors are horribly, horribly broken right now.
On November 09 2012 10:44 SickeL wrote: Fungal is already a projectile.
Just changing it to 3 food is perfect imo... Infestors become a balance problem only when theyre massed because their spells scale ridiculously well (unlike HTs and Ghosts which you can make too many of and lose battles because of the wrong army balance) It shouldn't be about changing the infestor itself but limiting their numbers so that there is a limited mana reserve, making the zerg player think twice before mindlessly spamming spells mid-battle, or even making them at all when additional roach/ling/muta would actually be more cost-effective
On November 09 2012 12:17 GGzerG wrote: I think they should nerf the infestor but also make it so it can move while burrowed, that would be awesome and would add more dynamic to the game.
On November 08 2012 18:40 Fuzer wrote: Change infested terran egg to light armor and give it same amount of hp as infested terran intself instead of 100, so its actually usefull to focus eggs before they spawn.
Make the infestor size smaller so I can emp / 8 of them with 1 EMP instead of 3.
you're complaining that you can't snipe 3 enemy spell casters w/ 1 spell instead of 8?...
emp doesn't do any damage to the infestors... 1 fungal on your ghosts and gg 12 ghosts.
And why did you allow your Ghosts to be fungaled?
PS, Is this thread an exception to balance discussion? Much of this thread is against the rules of TL.
On November 09 2012 03:14 Darpa wrote: I think 3 supply infestor, slow instead of immobilize and if they dont change that then make it so fungal cant kill. That way infestors couldnt catch a group of 50 marines or banshees, pheonix, zealots ect and fungal them all down without actually risking some units.
also no parasite on mothership... although Im not sure how zerg would beat mass mech thor banshee hellion viking without neural affecting thors... its hard to survive to that point, but once you hit that critical mass of thors its very hard for a zerg to beat it even with broodlord infestor.
You don't make Thors en masse to deal with BLs because high BLs counts easily win, especially with Queen support (Broodlings preventing some of the Thors from reaching BLs, Transfuse negating the slow damage coming from the Thors, etc.). Fighting high BLs/Corruptors/Infestors counts without Ravens is hopeless.
Ive seen lucifron go mass thors in several games against zerg. It does work as long as you can pick an engagement where you are in range.
It took about two years before Zergs really started massing infestors. We should give the other races a similar amount of time to come up with their own solution.
On November 09 2012 12:17 GGzerG wrote: I think they should nerf the infestor but also make it so it can move while burrowed, that would be awesome and would add more dynamic to the game.
Wut, Infestors can already move while burrowed.
Since he has over 3k posts I think he was sarcastic...
Change the hp of infested terran eggs. And also don't let them have upgrade benefits. I don't think 0 supply units deserve the extra damage and armour from upgrades.
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading.
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
buffing feedback wont help against a superlategame bl infestor army comp because the hightemplars cant reach the infestors in the first place(due to broodlings) and feedbacking a couple of infestors wont change the outcome of the fight. also it will most certainly create new problems for terrans in tvp due to collosus range + observers, protoss could just keep terran's army at bay while feedbacking all their ghosts..
On November 09 2012 13:14 Carnate wrote: It took about two years before Zergs really started massing infestors. We should give the other races a similar amount of time to come up with their own solution.
Like when we gave Zergs time to come up with a solution to mass ghosts amirite? oh wait...
On November 08 2012 18:40 Fuzer wrote: Change infested terran egg to light armor and give it same amount of hp as infested terran intself instead of 100, so its actually usefull to focus eggs before they spawn.
Make the infestor size smaller so I can emp / 8 of them with 1 EMP instead of 3.
you're complaining that you can't snipe 3 enemy spell casters w/ 1 spell instead of 8?...
emp doesn't do any damage to the infestors... 1 fungal on your ghosts and gg 12 ghosts.
And why did you allow your Ghosts to be fungaled?
PS, Is this thread an exception to balance discussion? Much of this thread is against the rules of TL.
So Zergs should be able to win if they land 1 fungal out of 25 infestors?
-Make Fungal Growth not immobilize units but slow their movement -Make infestor 3 supply instead of 2 -Give Infested Terran eggs the same amount of HP as Infested Terran its -The fungal becomes a projectile
Do these 4 things and increase infestor hp by 20-30 so they stay a hardier unit?
It seems 90% of the sc2 community have nothing else to care in their lifes really sad. Just continue this whine, sc2 will never die because there will always be people who have fun playing this game. But you guys are just behaving like tards, you´re killing sc2.
hm, I still like the idea of making fungal a positional spell the most. Make fungal hit an area like storm and in that area units are slowed and take damage. I think it would be at least worth to try that on a test map, it could make for a more dynamic game where Zerg sets up fungal fields and the opponent has to find ways around it or wait for the fungal to run out but then has to be scared of another cast by another infestor. But the stun+damage has to go, it's just bad design.
Turning fungal into storm is interesting, maybe less damage but with a slow so it's still differentiated enough to make it worthwhile. The last thing we want is all the spellcasters becoming more identical. I feel like that + IT eggs having the same health as an IT would be an interesting test, to see what changes. Right now, the egg-hatching is almost pointless as you can barely kill any before they hatch anyway, so it's not a particular disadvantage.
On November 09 2012 20:15 SirisH wrote: It seems 90% of the sc2 community have nothing else to care in their lifes really sad. Just continue this whine, sc2 will never die because there will always be people who have fun playing this game. But you guys are just behaving like tards, you´re killing sc2.
I'm sorry but everyone is acknowledging that infestors right now are just a bad unit to have in the game. The fact that every other zerg unit has to suck in order for it to be fair is a dynamic nobody likes, not even pro zerg players. You can continue to stick your head in the sand and pretend it's fine but don't blame other people when they don't feel like doing so.
On November 09 2012 20:15 SirisH wrote: It seems 90% of the sc2 community have nothing else to care in their lifes really sad. Just continue this whine, sc2 will never die because there will always be people who have fun playing this game. But you guys are just behaving like tards, you´re killing sc2.
I'm sorry but everyone is acknowledging that infestors right now are just a bad unit to have in the game. The fact that every other zerg unit has to suck in order for it to be fair is a dynamic nobody likes, not even pro zerg players. You can continue to stick your head in the sand and pretend it's fine but don't blame other people when they don't feel like doing so.
Why are people even pretending this? The only bad Zerg unit is the Hydralisk...
I see so many changes to infestors, while the unit is needed due to terrible design on other aspects.
Why do we focus on the infestor, if we should focus on the problems that make the infestor so important. Such as banelings losing a lot of power when they meet someone who splits (and you got no infestor to stop them from running and killing 90% ofthe banelings for free)
On November 09 2012 20:15 SirisH wrote: It seems 90% of the sc2 community have nothing else to care in their lifes really sad. Just continue this whine, sc2 will never die because there will always be people who have fun playing this game. But you guys are just behaving like tards, you´re killing sc2.
I'm sorry but everyone is acknowledging that infestors right now are just a bad unit to have in the game. The fact that every other zerg unit has to suck in order for it to be fair is a dynamic nobody likes, not even pro zerg players. You can continue to stick your head in the sand and pretend it's fine but don't blame other people when they don't feel like doing so.
Why are people even pretending this? The only bad Zerg unit is the Hydralisk...
1. Corruptors - Situational unit, only good vs mass air (who does that nowadays) and for broods. 2. Hydra's - No need to explain that 3. Ultralisks - Terrible terrible dama... pathing I mean.
What if they made it so fungal only roots ground units? It would still damage air units, but wouldn't root them. The biggest problem with fungal isn't that it hurts air units, but that if one fungal lands on a clump then it's pretty much guaranteed to die to the chain fungal.
You could make it so transports can't load/unload while fungalled if that ends up being a problem.
On November 09 2012 20:15 SirisH wrote: It seems 90% of the sc2 community have nothing else to care in their lifes really sad. Just continue this whine, sc2 will never die because there will always be people who have fun playing this game. But you guys are just behaving like tards, you´re killing sc2.
I'm sorry but everyone is acknowledging that infestors right now are just a bad unit to have in the game. The fact that every other zerg unit has to suck in order for it to be fair is a dynamic nobody likes, not even pro zerg players. You can continue to stick your head in the sand and pretend it's fine but don't blame other people when they don't feel like doing so.
Why are people even pretending this? The only bad Zerg unit is the Hydralisk...
1. Corruptors - Situational unit, only good vs mass air (who does that nowadays) and for broods. 2. Hydra's - No need to explain that 3. Ultralisks - Terrible terrible dama... pathing I mean.
1 - Corruptors are good against colossi too, needed against vikings (not mass air, just vikings to protect your BLs and they can win you t he game just camping starports), and anyways you need them. Useless ? Really ?
2 - Yes, the problem is mostly how the infestor takes entirely its role while also having AoE CC. Hydras should cost lower, and have more mobility off-creep, and should be more cost effective as a core unit than infestors, while infestors remain there to be able to protect your zerg army with fungals.
3 - Meh they work doing tech switches against terran. Most races have some T3 unit that doesn't see much use tho, and the ultralisk is actually the only one that pop out from time to time.
On November 09 2012 21:53 Aelonius wrote: I see so many changes to infestors, while the unit is needed due to terrible design on other aspects.
Why do we focus on the infestor, if we should focus on the problems that make the infestor so important. Such as banelings losing a lot of power when they meet someone who splits (and you got no infestor to stop them from running and killing 90% ofthe banelings for free)
I would say the main problem is not that people can split against Banelings, but rather the huge difference of efficiency between Zerg ground units on creep and Zerg ground units off creep (a fight in which the Zerg would have poorly traded off creep can be an overwhelming victory on creep). Since the Queen patch you pretty much always fight on creep in TvZ, which drastically changes the outcome of the fights. Even Fungal is affected by creep because you have more time to split/react against an Infestor coming at 2.25 movespeed than against a 2.925 movespeed Infestor.
On November 09 2012 20:15 SirisH wrote: It seems 90% of the sc2 community have nothing else to care in their lifes really sad. Just continue this whine, sc2 will never die because there will always be people who have fun playing this game. But you guys are just behaving like tards, you´re killing sc2.
I'm sorry but everyone is acknowledging that infestors right now are just a bad unit to have in the game. The fact that every other zerg unit has to suck in order for it to be fair is a dynamic nobody likes, not even pro zerg players. You can continue to stick your head in the sand and pretend it's fine but don't blame other people when they don't feel like doing so.
Why are people even pretending this? The only bad Zerg unit is the Hydralisk...
1. Corruptors - Situational unit, only good vs mass air (who does that nowadays) and for broods. 2. Hydra's - No need to explain that 3. Ultralisks - Terrible terrible dama... pathing I mean.
Neither Corruptors nor Ultralisks (at least against Terran) are bad.
On November 09 2012 20:15 SirisH wrote: It seems 90% of the sc2 community have nothing else to care in their lifes really sad. Just continue this whine, sc2 will never die because there will always be people who have fun playing this game. But you guys are just behaving like tards, you´re killing sc2.
I'm sorry but everyone is acknowledging that infestors right now are just a bad unit to have in the game. The fact that every other zerg unit has to suck in order for it to be fair is a dynamic nobody likes, not even pro zerg players. You can continue to stick your head in the sand and pretend it's fine but don't blame other people when they don't feel like doing so.
Why are people even pretending this? The only bad Zerg unit is the Hydralisk...
Eh..no. All units, and i do mean all units for zerg aside from the infestor are very specialised and situational. The hydralisk probably more so then any other unit in the game. Infestors are the only units that can deal with literally any threat present in the game given that they have enough energy. That's it's only limiting factor. Not the kind of composition the other guy has, it's purely limited by available energy. How do you compensate for that? By making more infestors. Roaches become progressively worse as you get more of them. Zerglings as well, as they start getting in eachothers way. This is even more so true for ultralisks. For broodlords you leave yourself vulnerable to air units. For mutalisks you sacrifice power in head on engagements for harassment potential. I could go on. Nerf the infestor and you can start buffing hydralisks to compensate, giving more choice to zerg but also forcing them to actually adjust their unit comp to what the other guy is doing, instead of just getting more infestors.
On November 09 2012 21:53 Aelonius wrote: I see so many changes to infestors, while the unit is needed due to terrible design on other aspects.
Why do we focus on the infestor, if we should focus on the problems that make the infestor so important. Such as banelings losing a lot of power when they meet someone who splits (and you got no infestor to stop them from running and killing 90% ofthe banelings for free)
I would say the main problem is not that people can split against Banelings, but rather the huge difference of efficiency between Zerg ground units on creep and Zerg ground units off creep (a fight in which the Zerg would have poorly traded off creep can be an overwhelming victory on creep). Since the Queen patch you pretty much always fight on creep in TvZ, which drastically changes the outcome of the fights. Even Fungal is affected by creep because you have more time to split/react against an Infestor coming at 2.25 movespeed than against a 2.925 movespeed Infestor.
On November 09 2012 20:15 SirisH wrote: It seems 90% of the sc2 community have nothing else to care in their lifes really sad. Just continue this whine, sc2 will never die because there will always be people who have fun playing this game. But you guys are just behaving like tards, you´re killing sc2.
I'm sorry but everyone is acknowledging that infestors right now are just a bad unit to have in the game. The fact that every other zerg unit has to suck in order for it to be fair is a dynamic nobody likes, not even pro zerg players. You can continue to stick your head in the sand and pretend it's fine but don't blame other people when they don't feel like doing so.
Why are people even pretending this? The only bad Zerg unit is the Hydralisk...
1. Corruptors - Situational unit, only good vs mass air (who does that nowadays) and for broods. 2. Hydra's - No need to explain that 3. Ultralisks - Terrible terrible dama... pathing I mean.
Neither Corruptors nor Ultralisks (at least against Terran) are bad.
out of vikings, phoenixes, corruptors the last ones are the worst.
On November 09 2012 10:16 President Dead wrote: These polls are essentially worthless because a basic question is missing entirely, "Should Infestors be changed?" This is basically an account of everyone who believes it should be changed, thus, there is no opposite representation which degrades these questions entirely and is completely bias.
"This is basically an account of everyone who believes it should be changed"
Yes, yes it is. That is after all, the point of the thread...
It could just be me, but I would think that a thread asking for possible changes to the infestor should be biased towards listing possible changes to the infestor. If you want a thread asking if the infestor should actually be changed, go make a thread asking if the infestor should actually be changed - a completely unbiased and one-dimensional thread, where the only answers are yes/no, with absolutely no discussion. Don't continue reading this thread and complaining since you think it's unfair.
On November 09 2012 10:16 President Dead wrote: These polls are essentially worthless because a basic question is missing entirely, "Should Infestors be changed?" This is basically an account of everyone who believes it should be changed, thus, there is no opposite representation which degrades these questions entirely and is completely bias.
Wrong. You are free to vote No to every one of these changes.
Root effect either needs to go completely or changed to have diminishing returns. First fungal would root and the units affected would be immune to rooting effect for next 20 seconds.
Make infestors 3 supply and maybe raise IT energy cost. Or completely remove IT and make that units that die to fungal turn into infested units. :p
Fungal is not the problem and there is no problem with infestors in the mid game. The only problem with infesters is in late game you can save up a load of energy and spawn rediculus number of infested terrans. It means their army can become unbeatable in the big engagment and that each time they get to full energy they can wipe out a huge chunk of the enemy structures. The only change thats needed is to reduce the max energy of infesters from 200 to 150. Try that, if its not enough reduce the spawn time of ITs by about a quarter.
Just remove unit for 6 months. And check the winrates.
Nobody even tries to go for anything else these days. Why should they? People are just stuck with the idea "zerg has no anti-air so we need infestors" that they don't even bother trying things out.
On November 09 2012 22:47 xuanzue wrote: what about to remove the free 3rds bases everywhere? the excess of gas (6 gas/3base) makes easy the mass infestor.
I don't think that helps any as it introduces other issues. It starves protoss of gas making them even more dependant on 2 base timings. With low mobility and low firepower/forcefield depandancy they'll die to speedlings or mass muta everytime they try to take a third, thats why the thirds had to be moved silly close in the first place. If the maps aren't huge it may make mineral heavy terran bio over strong vs zerg unbalancing that matchup. When Z I'm usually pretty gas starved as it is vs good bio play. The close thirds are dumb but its how we acheived balance
Big issue is mass infestor endgame gives the best AoE spell in the game plus a potential 300 food army with only energy cost. I think the weak eggs + a food cost for infested terrans should make that go away. But I'd like to see some option to micro against /out of fungal too.
BL/Infestor/corruptor isn't about connecting melee units, but unabling opponent to connect with your Broodlords safely. Melee units don't play a huge role there so you would be doing almost nothing, while nerfing zerg melee on midgame, which imho doesn't need a nerf at all.
On November 09 2012 23:01 Aelfric wrote: None of the above, mine is this:
- Increase the infested terran energy cost to reasonable amount which would not totally deny late game air play by toss.
Fungal plays a bigger role in that than IT imo since air units stack
No, fungal just doesn't hit too much and good protosses can manage fungal with good feedbacks so it's about skill. What fucks everything up is that these extra free units that doesn't cost anything and super strong vs air and gains upgrades too.
As a zerg, either changing fungal to a slow of 75% instead of a root, or make IT cost 40 energy sounds reasonable. I can't believe how many idiotic comments this thread brings up though, unbelievable.
Edit: Or perhaps increase the supply to 3 and give them a little bit more HP.
However if fungal is slowed to a root, abilities shouldn't be able to be used either; because blink stalker would make fungal useless in that case. However that might be a problem, because no blink would also mean no stim. But yeahh..
On November 09 2012 23:01 Aelfric wrote: None of the above, mine is this:
- Increase the infested terran energy cost to reasonable amount which would not totally deny late game air play by toss.
Fungal plays a bigger role in that than IT imo since air units stack
No, fungal just doesn't hit too much and good protosses can manage fungal with good feedbacks so it's about skill. What fucks everything up is that these extra free units that doesn't cost anything and super strong vs air and gains upgrades too.
You are just thinking on PvZ, and not on a optimal lategame situation for the protoss. TvZ fungal plays a big role against vikings, and it's actually quite decent against voidrays and carriers.
On November 09 2012 23:23 Henk wrote: As a zerg, either changing fungal to a slow of 75% instead of a root, or make IT cost 40 energy sounds reasonable. I can't believe how many idiotic comments this thread brings up though, unbelievable.
Edit: Or perhaps increase the supply to 3 and give them a little bit more HP.
However if fungal is slowed to a root, abilities shouldn't be able to be used either; because blink stalker would make fungal useless in that case. However that might be a problem, because no blink would also mean no stim. But yeahh..
It's complicated.
useless is a strong word. Still damage and the slow would still make them catchable unless they blink really smart.
I would add: to reduce infestor speed. At least while burrowed. T loses it's ghosts, P loses templars, Z keeps it's infestors alive ez pz because they move underground like a reactive missle.
On November 09 2012 23:45 mortales wrote: I would add: to reduce infestor speed. At least while burrowed. T loses it's ghosts, P loses templars, Z keep it's infestors ez pz because they move underground like a reactive missle.
Ghost's speed isn't reduced while cloaked, while should the infestor's speed be lowered? Burrow=Cloak, basically?
My problem is that the infestor became a core unit and not a supportive unit like spell casters should be. When ghost became the unit to go in tvz, they were nerfed (understandable) as well as templar with amulett(although templar have a different role because of their ability to morph to an archon). I think the change to 3 supply is worth a shot aswell as the projectile thing. I found a youtube video of the ptr + Show Spoiler +
On November 09 2012 23:45 mortales wrote: I would add: to reduce infestor speed. At least while burrowed. T loses it's ghosts, P loses templars, Z keep it's infestors ez pz because they move underground like a reactive missle.
Ghost's speed isn't reduced while cloaked, while should the infestor's speed be lowered? Burrow=Cloak, basically?
Burrow =/= Cloak
EMP doesn't deburrow units for one thing, also I'm not sure but the burrow ripple does not seem as obvious as cloak.
Just remove the rooting ability of Fungal Growth. It is a worse anti-micro spell than the Forcefield for gods sake. The rooting ability is the one thing that makes every non-zerg player on the planet hate the fucking infestor, while 90% of the zergs go with the excuse : Duh, if it were not for the infestor, we can't win any games at all ... Stupid. Remove the Root and the games would become entertaining once again.
On November 10 2012 00:05 MagmaPunch wrote: Just remove the rooting ability of Fungal Growth. It is a worse anti-micro spell than the Forcefield for gods sake. The rooting ability is the one thing that makes every non-zerg player on the planet hate the fucking infestor, while 90% of the zergs go with the excuse : Duh, if it were not for the infestor, we can't win any games at all ... Stupid. Remove the Root and the games would become entertaining once again.
How will lategame zergs stop marines stimming under their expensive broodlord army and killing everything then?
I agree 100% root is strong; maybe a bit too strong. But you can't just fully remove it either.
Ghost's speed isn't reduced while cloaked, while should the infestor's speed be lowered? Burrow=Cloak, basically?
cloack spends a lot of energy, ghost can't run over the map being hidden all time. Also ghost can't immobilize a chasing group of units with EMP. And if ghost gets feedback, he can't hide. Without this theorycraft, how many ghosts keep alive during the game in TvP? How many ghosts the terran get at 16-18 min in TvP? And how many infestors get the zerg at this time?
On November 10 2012 00:05 MagmaPunch wrote: Just remove the rooting ability of Fungal Growth. It is a worse anti-micro spell than the Forcefield for gods sake. The rooting ability is the one thing that makes every non-zerg player on the planet hate the fucking infestor, while 90% of the zergs go with the excuse : Duh, if it were not for the infestor, we can't win any games at all ... Stupid. Remove the Root and the games would become entertaining once again.
How will lategame zergs stop marines stimming under their expensive broodlord army and killing everything then?
I agree 100% root is strong; maybe a bit too strong. But you can't just fully remove it either.
I have though of that. Well,if we exclude the fact that the zerg shouldnt have only infestors and Blords, then I think that a 30/40% slow will be perfectly fine.
On November 09 2012 23:45 mortales wrote: I would add: to reduce infestor speed. At least while burrowed. T loses it's ghosts, P loses templars, Z keep it's infestors ez pz because they move underground like a reactive missle.
Ghost's speed isn't reduced while cloaked, while should the infestor's speed be lowered? Burrow=Cloak, basically?
I don't think that is a fair comparison. Cloaking uses energy but burrowing does not. An infestor can tunnel somewhere, use up all of its energy in infested terrans without needing to unburrow, and then tunnel out again. If a ghost runs out of energy then it decloaks. Moreover, turning on the cloak costs energy in addition to the constant energy drain so cloaking for short periods of time is energy-inefficient.
I'm not saying that I think reducing the infestor's tunnelling speed is a good idea or a bad idea, but I don't think it is fair to dismiss it because of the ghost comparison.
Make the fungal a missile spell that can be dodged. That would be pretty awesome to use and to play against. Although also need to change it so it has a 30% to 40% slow instead of rooting the enemy in place.
How about giving it a "growth" animation effect? Make the ground glow green for like half a second and let the regular fungal take over.
Also, remember when fungal wasn't supposed to be a DPS spell? I miss the Fruitdealer baller move when he traps everything with fungal and lets the banes roll in :D.
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
Okay. Remove NP. I don't know why the Infestor needs to have 3 abilities which combine to counter everything. At least if massive units were a counter then the Infestor wouldn't counter everything. It's like if you gave the Ghost a flamethrower to help against massed weak units (which currently are good against the Ghost). Or if Templar could shoot like Immortals.
On November 09 2012 23:45 mortales wrote: I would add: to reduce infestor speed. At least while burrowed. T loses it's ghosts, P loses templars, Z keep it's infestors ez pz because they move underground like a reactive missle.
Ghost's speed isn't reduced while cloaked, while should the infestor's speed be lowered? Burrow=Cloak, basically?
Except it does not cost any energy and it allows Infestors to bypass the bane of retreating units, which is collision size. I would sure love if my Cloaked Ghosts could go through my Marines and Marauders to escape when chased by fanatical Charge Zealots.
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
I'm not sure why NP should be a problem? I thought fungal (as in chain fungal) and IT (as in 1000000 dps for "free") were the problem?! The range nerf made the use of NP quite hard?!
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ.
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.
The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.
Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...
TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.
(Really, I don't get why anybody is talking about anything but fungal, is everyone so blinded by their hate that they can't see the clearly broken function of that spell?)
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.
The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.
Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...
TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.
How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons?
* Infested Terrans : Eggs 0 armor, infested terrans spawn with same hp as eggs ( eggs same hp as infested terrans + if egg is at 20% hp when it pops, so does the infested terran. 30 energy per infested terran spawn.
* Fungal working like a siege tank blast in terms of damage / rooting a.k.a. complete root at center, then 75% and 50% slow and damage in our rims.
* Reduce infestor model by quite a bit. Making them more stackable will make them weaker to AoE and more micro splitting required, as well as make EMP better against them. Could also slow them down a bit off creep by 5-10%
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.
The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.
Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...
TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.
How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons?
I found this post quite good as it shows a way how to change the Infestor and maybe change the way PvZ is played. This is out of the box thinking I like.
I don't think a range increase for Snipe and Feedback, like Mr. Bitter suggested, is a good solution at all. Twelve range Feedback would likely be way too strong in PvT. A Snipe range increase might look ok on paper to counter it, but in practice I can't see how it could work. Feedback neutralizes Ghosts much faster than Snipe does against High Templars as it takes two shots (with a short cooldown) to kill them. The interplay between HT and Ghosts is fine when EMP and Storms are also in play though (mostly EMP for the nearly instant effect.)
When you look at everything other than Ghost v. Templar, a buff like that would greatly favor the HT and Protoss. Feedback is incredibly good against Ravens, Thors, Medivacs, and situationally Banshees. I think a change like what was suggested would be too strong against Medivac drop play and make Ravens and Thors even more difficult to use, which the match up definitely doesn't need.
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ.
On November 10 2012 02:19 Raygun wrote: I don't think a range increase for Snipe and Feedback, like Mr. Bitter suggested, is a good solution at all. Twelve range Feedback would likely be way too strong in PvT. A Snipe range increase might look ok on paper to counter it, but in practice I can't see how it could work. Feedback neutralizes Ghosts much faster than Snipe does against High Templars as it takes two shots (with a short cooldown) to kill them. The interplay between HT and Ghosts is fine when EMP and Storms are also in play though (mostly EMP for the nearly instant effect.)
When you look at everything other than Ghost v. Templar, a buff like that would greatly favor the HT and Protoss. Feedback is incredibly good against Ravens, Thors, Medivacs, and situationally Banshees. I think a change like what was suggested would be too strong against Medivac drop play and make Ravens and Thors even more difficult to use, which the match up definitely doesn't need.
Anyway, the last thing SC2 needs is more of the bland “my opponent builds A so I have to build B, the counter to A” theme.
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ.
Good you are no balance designed then eh.
Are you aware that balance problems precisely don't exist in mirror match-ups?
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.
The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.
Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...
TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.
How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons?
The question SHOULD be:
Do you really like Colossus-based PvZ so much that you are willing to keep the current iteration of the MU?
Personally, I don't like the Infestor, but it's my only option as a Zerg player. I can't fucking make anything else work because it's all worthless once Colossi hit the field.
Give me an infestor that has nice harass through IT, is mildly useful in combat through a lesser fungal, and discourages Colossi, which (IMO) currently ruin the MU, and I would be a very happy man.
I think making infested Terrans much weaker, but when infestors fling them out they instantly come out as opposed to pesky eggs that block and get in the way for both players
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ.
BW ZvZ was muta exclusive forever, it's just how the matchup worked. Not the greatest thing ever to watch, but not exactly terrible because of the incredible intensity of the micro. It'd certainly be worth sending ZvZ down that path to save the non-mirrors, but I don't think it's really needed. 50% slow and hydras could work just fine against muta.
On November 08 2012 20:36 Roko wrote: I personally think that the Infestor doesn't need a nerf/buff w/e but I do think that other races need something that does properly counter them like the Oracles phase shield f.ex. (although it was removed ._.)
Changes need to be made pre HotS
For terran it could be either - A) EMPs radius is bigger, allowing it to hit 4-6 infestors, instead of 1-3 B) Make infestors smaller so EMPs are more effective.
The problems with ghosts for terrans is they would only be there to EMP, they suck versus broodlord/ultralisk and are just a waste of supply, the difference between ghosts meant to counter HT vs protoss is that even without the EMP, the ghost is really good versus zealots.
Ah but if you make EMP radius bigger then TvP is kinda screwed.
I personally believe a change in fungal vs vikings/flying is good for TvZ, and in general perhaps remove the energy upgrade for infestors so they don't pop out ready to fight. A small change but it did a lot to ht.
Can make infestors smaller to address that problem.
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.
The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.
Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...
TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.
How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons?
The question SHOULD be:
Do you really like Colossus-based PvZ so much that you are willing to keep the current iteration of the MU?
Personally, I don't like the Infestor, but it's my only option as a Zerg player. I can't fucking make anything else work because it's all worthless once Colossi hit the field.
Give me an infestor that has nice harass through IT, is mildly useful in combat through a lesser fungal, and discourages Colossi, which (IMO) currently ruin the MU, and I would be a very happy man.
Game would be more interested if Colossi was just outright removed and reavers made a comeback. Would open up protoss air as well, instead of having one force a counter to both.
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.
The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.
Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...
TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.
How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons?
The question SHOULD be:
Do you really like Colossus-based PvZ so much that you are willing to keep the current iteration of the MU?
Personally, I don't like the Infestor, but it's my only option as a Zerg player. I can't fucking make anything else work because it's all worthless once Colossi hit the field.
Give me an infestor that has nice harass through IT, is mildly useful in combat through a lesser fungal, and discourages Colossi, which (IMO) currently ruin the MU, and I would be a very happy man.
No one likes Colossi, why do you even ask? Yet forgive me, but stating that Infestors are your only option is laughable. I see many pro games in which Zergs win ZvP with Lair agression (Zerglings/Roaches multi-pronged attacks, Roaches drops, Mutalisks, etc.).
One of the major issues people have with infestors is that they negate micro. Storms and EMP's can be dodged, units caught in a fungal are as good as dead. This rooting effect is necessary for zerg's though as it is the only way to prevent stalkers from blinking under the broodlords.
What if Blizzard keeps the rooting effect but adds a small delay to fungal, with an added visual cue that the fungal is casted. (the targeted area lights up for a second or so prior to the fungal actually landing.) This way players have the possibility to dodge the fungal and zerg's have to anticipate the opponents movement in order to land the spell.
In addition to this, if they make it so that fungals can't be chained anymore I believe it might solve some of the problems without changing the fundamentals of the unit.
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.
The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.
Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...
TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.
How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons?
The question SHOULD be:
Do you really like Colossus-based PvZ so much that you are willing to keep the current iteration of the MU?
Personally, I don't like the Infestor, but it's my only option as a Zerg player. I can't fucking make anything else work because it's all worthless once Colossi hit the field.
Give me an infestor that has nice harass through IT, is mildly useful in combat through a lesser fungal, and discourages Colossi, which (IMO) currently ruin the MU, and I would be a very happy man.
No one likes Colossi, why do you even ask? Yet forgive me, but stating that Infestors are your only option is laughable. I see many pro games in which Zergs win ZvP with Lair agression (Zerglings/Roaches multi-pronged attacks, Roaches drops, Mutalisks, etc.).
it's interesting that suggesting Zerg players try difficult, micro-intensive styles that require lots of refinement and precise timing (you know, the same thing nearly every Terran and Protoss style revolve around) is always instantly decried as impossible. It's almost like using infestors for too long reduces your ability to play Starcraft.
Why can't fungal be just like ensnare was in broodwar? Not only reduce the speed of the units affect but also reduce the attack speed of the units affected by fugal? This way you could kill two birds with one stone, the dps of colossus, marines and all the other units in deathballs would be reduced, and reinforce the role of the infestor as SUPPORTING the zerg army, not be the zerg army itself.
All the suggestions to just change fungal to a slow wouldn't work because as long as fungal does damage then the zerg would still mass infestor unless the slow was low enough to make it so that the opposing army could run away from chain fungals. The damage aspect of fungal has to be removed if we ever want to balance the infestor, and by removing it, we can give more utility to fungal itself.
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ.
Yeah, good thing nobody listens to you then. Just because you don't play the matchup doesn't mean it can go to hell. Please, think rationally before you post.
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ.
Yeah, good thing nobody listens to you then. Just because you don't play the matchup doesn't mean it can go to hell. Please, think rationally before you post.
So you're saying one mirror match up trumps non-mirrors?
He's right in saying balance issues don't occur in mirrors, so what if you have to play Mutas. The matchup is volatile and coinflippy as fuck as it is already.
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ.
Yeah, good thing nobody listens to you then. Just because you don't play the matchup doesn't mean it can go to hell. Please, think rationally before you post.
And exactly why would Mutalisk wars in ZvZ mean the ruin of the match-up? Is it currently more exciting to wonder at each battle which eggs are yours? Are Roaches wars that much more fascinating? I'm sorry but the ZvZ argument is quite derisory. It's like when you talk about reverting the Queen range buff and some Zerg comes and solemny says “but that would ruin ZvZ early game”. Yeah, OK...
I don't know why so many people said no to the fungal covers your own units idea, or even the fungal can't kill units idea. If storm can effect my units why would it make sense for your units to not be effected by your spell? Also, in BW defilers' plague didn't kill units it just severely hurt them and that worked out fine.
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ.
Yeah, good thing nobody listens to you then. Just because you don't play the matchup doesn't mean it can go to hell. Please, think rationally before you post.
So you're saying one mirror match up trumps non-mirrors?
He's right in saying balance issues don't occur in mirrors, so what if you have to play Mutas. The matchup is volatile and coinflippy as fuck as it is already.
You must confuse zvz with pvp. There is a reason Nestea used and Life now is zvz monsters. It is volatile but it is not not coinflippy at all. Ruining 1 matchup for the sake of 2 others that maybe will be fixed is not the way it should go you know.
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ.
Yeah, good thing nobody listens to you then. Just because you don't play the matchup doesn't mean it can go to hell. Please, think rationally before you post.
And exactly why would Mutalisk wars in ZvZ mean the ruin of the match-up? Is it currently more exciting to wonder at each battle which eggs are yours? Are Roaches wars that much more fascinating? I'm sorry but the ZvZ argument is quite derisory. It's like when you talk about reverting the Queen range buff and some Zerg comes and solemny says “but that would ruin ZvZ early game”. Yeah, OK...
Because right now you can do stuff like ling-inf-ultra, roach/hydra-inf, or ling muta. After the nerf of fungal only mutas would be viable, because these compositions don't have any anti-air other than the infestor. Hydras won't work vs mutas because they're just way, way too slow.
It's just idiotic. If fungal wouldn't hit air, storm shouldn't hit air either. Bring on ZvP mass muta After all, ruining one matchup isn't really a problem, right?
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ.
Yeah, good thing nobody listens to you then. Just because you don't play the matchup doesn't mean it can go to hell. Please, think rationally before you post.
And exactly why would Mutalisk wars in ZvZ mean the ruin of the match-up? Is it currently more exciting to wonder at each battle which eggs are yours? Are Roaches wars that much more fascinating? I'm sorry but the ZvZ argument is quite derisory. It's like when you talk about reverting the Queen range buff and some Zerg comes and solemny says “but that would ruin ZvZ early game”. Yeah, OK...
Because right now you can do stuff like ling-inf-ultra, roach/hydra-inf, or ling muta. After the nerf of fungal only mutas would be viable, because these compositions don't have any anti-air other than the infestor. Hydras won't work vs mutas because they're just way, way too slow.
It's just idiotic. If fungal wouldn't hit air, storm shouldn't hit air either. Bring on ZvP mass muta After all, ruining one matchup isn't really a problem, right?
Why the hell shouldn't storm hit air if fungal can't? That's like saying since zealots can't hit air marines shouldn't be able to hit air. Thor's can hit air, why can't my colossus hit air????
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ.
Yeah, good thing nobody listens to you then. Just because you don't play the matchup doesn't mean it can go to hell. Please, think rationally before you post.
And exactly why would Mutalisk wars in ZvZ mean the ruin of the match-up? Is it currently more exciting to wonder at each battle which eggs are yours? Are Roaches wars that much more fascinating? I'm sorry but the ZvZ argument is quite derisory. It's like when you talk about reverting the Queen range buff and some Zerg comes and solemny says “but that would ruin ZvZ early game”. Yeah, OK...
Because right now you can do stuff like ling-inf-ultra, roach/hydra-inf, or ling muta. After the nerf of fungal only mutas would be viable, because these compositions don't have any anti-air other than the infestor. Hydras won't work vs mutas because they're just way, way too slow.
It's just idiotic. If fungal wouldn't hit air, storm shouldn't hit air either. Bring on ZvP mass muta After all, ruining one matchup isn't really a problem, right?
Why the hell shouldn't storm hit air if fungal can't? That's like saying since zealots can't hit air marines shouldn't be able to hit air. Thor's can hit air, why can't my colossus hit air????
Storms not hitting air is idiotic; just like fungal not hitting air. That was kind of my point, yes.
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.
The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.
Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...
TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.
(Really, I don't get why anybody is talking about anything but fungal, is everyone so blinded by their hate that they can't see the clearly broken function of that spell?)
Most people are getting concerned about ITs because there's no upperbound to the usefulness of Infestors, at least Fungals have DRs in a given battle, seeing as the DPS can't be stacked, and the battle duration is usually less than 2-3 Fungal cycles. But, 100hp eggs that an Infestor can theoretically spawn 8 of each is useful even in the height of a ball vs. ball clash. Even 200 supply armies have a hard time with cost effectively trading with energy. This can be shown in the recent MLG tournaments, where your entire army can just be energy at this point. ITs are too energy efficient when you're forced to engage them, which is always, because that's precisely what Fungal does.
With the coming HotS Viper, I see a conflation of roles between Abduct and NP, seeing as they're both designed to eliminate single target threats. I personally think the Infestor with its AoE snare, and army spawning, should be enough utility on one unit, so I'd keep Abduct. If it's more because you want that single target eliminator on a ground unit, then you can swap Fungal or ITs with the Viper, but then they're a lot more vulnerable to the threats they're supposed to eliminate.
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
Is our current situation any better? Infestor vs Infestor wars? The answer seems to lie inbetween, where Infestors can Fungal to deal with Mutas evenly, but not utterly destroy them. Hydras need their GtA role back.
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ.
Yeah, good thing nobody listens to you then. Just because you don't play the matchup doesn't mean it can go to hell. Please, think rationally before you post.
So you're saying one mirror match up trumps non-mirrors?
He's right in saying balance issues don't occur in mirrors, so what if you have to play Mutas. The matchup is volatile and coinflippy as fuck as it is already.
You must confuse zvz with pvp. There is a reason Nestea used and Life now is zvz monsters. It is volatile but it is not not coinflippy at all. Ruining 1 matchup for the sake of 2 others that maybe will be fixed is not the way it should go you know.
In the long run yes, but short term makes zero sense to put up knowing that 2 match ups can be fixed but not doing anything for the sake of one.
I never even realized that fungals didn't hit friendly units, what other AOE doesn't hit friendly units? Siege tanks / forcefields / storms / emps / seeker missiles all do...
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.
The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.
Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...
TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.
How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons?
The question SHOULD be:
Do you really like Colossus-based PvZ so much that you are willing to keep the current iteration of the MU?
Personally, I don't like the Infestor, but it's my only option as a Zerg player. I can't fucking make anything else work because it's all worthless once Colossi hit the field.
Give me an infestor that has nice harass through IT, is mildly useful in combat through a lesser fungal, and discourages Colossi, which (IMO) currently ruin the MU, and I would be a very happy man.
No one likes Colossi, why do you even ask? Yet forgive me, but stating that Infestors are your only option is laughable. I see many pro games in which Zergs win ZvP with Lair agression (Zerglings/Roaches multi-pronged attacks, Roaches drops, Mutalisks, etc.).
it's interesting that suggesting Zerg players try difficult, micro-intensive styles that require lots of refinement and precise timing (you know, the same thing nearly every Terran and Protoss style revolve around) is always instantly decried as impossible. It's almost like using infestors for too long reduces your ability to play Starcraft.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but your strawman argument isn't going to work on me.
Let me give you some realistic, personal background: ZvP has historically been my worst MU. When I dominate Zerg and Terran alike, I will lose upwards of 70% or more of my ZvP games... that is... until I stopped being stubborn and started playing more with the infestor.
Here are some of my common problems when I use non-infestor based armies (trying to keep it as short as possible):
Zerg has no unit that really COUNTERS the Stalker. Roaches lose in equal supply, Lings are good if they can get adequate surface area, but Protoss has enough tools to mitigate ling surrounds, Brood Lords, Mutas, Ultralisks, none of these win cost-effectively vs Stalkers in a straight-up fight. The best part is that Stalkers are about 80% as mobile as Mutalisks, which Blizzard has already shown up they think are too powerful in the ZvP MU, but still... Zerg doesn't get a unit like the Phoenix is to the Mutalisk or the Immortal is to the Roach. So we lock Stalkers down with Fungal and watch die slowly, from a nice, safe distance.
Zerg doesn't really have anything that COUNTERS the Colossus. Same story, different problem. Colossus have 9 range (compared to the Roach's 4 or the Zergling's 0), any decent Protoss will have plenty of ground units to keep Roaches/Lings at a harmless distance while the Colossus pounds out 150+ collective damage per shot to the Zerg army. The go-to argument every Protoss player presents is "CORRUPTORS, NOOB!!!" but really... let me go back to my age old argument. Corruptors do less DPS-per-supply to Colossi than Stalkers. Remember all that talk Protoss players like to throw around about how bad of a unit the Stalker is? Well, imagine if they cost 2x as much gas, didn't have blink, and couldn't target ground units... yeah... that's what you're suggesting is my counter to the Colossus.
****Note - If you played SC2 right after the fungal change, Infestor/Ling armies were found to be incredibly effective in mid-game ZvP due to the lockdown from Fungal and NP on colossi. It was nice, shit, it was OP. Zerg could lock down the entire Protoss army and trade away Minerals for high-gas-cost units. Why weren't Zergs doing this before the fungal change? Simple: Infestors weren't viable until that point for the same reason that corruptors suck. Spending 1k gas to counter 1 Colossus and then immediately losing to the 40 Stalkers accompanying that Colossus is not a winning strategy.
Zerg DOES have counters to Force Field, but they're not really good vs anything else. Baneling drops and burrow roaches come to mind immediately. Unfortunately, neither one of those are really useful vs Blinking Stalker armies that are available by the same point in the game. If Protoss is smart enough to bring an observer for the roaches or simply spread out for the bling drops, they just won't be useful (this is why we don't see either one of these used regularly).
Mutalisks suck. When I use them and win, I feel like a badass. Unfortunately, Stalkers trade well enough vs Mutalisks and have the mobility to hold off almost all harassment if they have blink. I didn't have a problem with this, it was still my go-to strategy until the Phoenix buff. Then I played a few games vs blind phoenix and realized that mutas are generally a bad tech choice in mid-game ZvP. With their new-found +2 range, a handful of phoenix really can lock down a muta flock 2-3x their size with impunity. And it's not like they're worthless otherwise, the phoenix is probably the best harassment unit Protoss has in SC2. Without viable Mutalisks, I am forced back into trying to fight the Protoss triangle of bullshit. Colossus on top of Stalkers behind force fields.
Ultralisks are a fucking waste of money.
Hydralisks are the fastest way to throw ANY ZvP regardless of Protoss' unit composition.
Fail, fail, fail.
Sure, I could play well and win some, but then the next game I would play equally well and get absolutely crushed by good force fields or proper unit control.
Then I gave up and started using Infestors (rather recently too, only about 1 month ago). It's a completely different world. Engagements happen on MY terms, not my opponents. I can defend against mid-game timing pushes. I am not depending on my opponent just being fucking terrible at this game. I get to micro instead of click and pray. And best of all, my infestors immediately lend themselves to my Brood Lord army when I get to that point in the game. It just feels better all around.
So talk shit about me being a bad player and all. Have fun with that, hopefully it gets you somewhere. But I fucking tried... I tried for over a year to make non-infestors work. It doesn't. Non-infestor is only as good as your opponent is bad, and that is no way to play (or design) any RTS game.
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.
The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.
Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...
TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.
(Really, I don't get why anybody is talking about anything but fungal, is everyone so blinded by their hate that they can't see the clearly broken function of that spell?)
Most people are getting concerned about ITs because there's no upperbound to the usefulness of Infestors, at least Fungals have DRs in a given battle, seeing as the DPS can't be stacked, and the battle duration is usually less than 2-3 Fungal cycles. But, 100hp eggs that an Infestor can theoretically spawn 8 of each is useful even in the height of a ball vs. ball clash. Even 200 supply armies have a hard time with cost effectively trading with energy. This can be shown in the recent MLG tournaments, where your entire army can just be energy at this point. ITs are too energy efficient when you're forced to engage them, which is always, because that's precisely what Fungal does.
With the coming HotS Viper, I see a conflation of roles between Abduct and NP, seeing as they're both designed to eliminate single target threats. I personally think the Infestor with its AoE snare, and army spawning, should be enough utility on one unit, so I'd keep Abduct. If it's more because you want that single target eliminator on a ground unit, then you can swap Fungal or ITs with the Viper, but then they're a lot more vulnerable to the threats they're supposed to eliminate.
I talked about this about 10 pages back.
The problem with IT has nothing to do with the IT ability itself and everything to do with the fact that strong fungal allows for 20-30 infestors to dominate the map.
Reduce fungal power, and you reduce the amount of infestors on the field, thereby reducing the maximum possible number of IT eggs in any given scenario.
I have offered up the thought experiment of facing a modern Zerg army where the Infestor can't cast Fungal Growth. What would happen? Protoss would 1A their way through infinity IT eggs and blink into BL packs all they wanted because those moves would no longer immediately forfeit that army.
The problem is Fungal, not IT, not NP, not burrow-move, not anything else.
Reduce fungal effectiveness and every other infestor-related problem will magically disappear.
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.
The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.
Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...
TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.
How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons?
The question SHOULD be:
Do you really like Colossus-based PvZ so much that you are willing to keep the current iteration of the MU?
Personally, I don't like the Infestor, but it's my only option as a Zerg player. I can't fucking make anything else work because it's all worthless once Colossi hit the field.
Give me an infestor that has nice harass through IT, is mildly useful in combat through a lesser fungal, and discourages Colossi, which (IMO) currently ruin the MU, and I would be a very happy man.
No one likes Colossi, why do you even ask? Yet forgive me, but stating that Infestors are your only option is laughable. I see many pro games in which Zergs win ZvP with Lair agression (Zerglings/Roaches multi-pronged attacks, Roaches drops, Mutalisks, etc.).
it's interesting that suggesting Zerg players try difficult, micro-intensive styles that require lots of refinement and precise timing (you know, the same thing nearly every Terran and Protoss style revolve around) is always instantly decried as impossible. It's almost like using infestors for too long reduces your ability to play Starcraft.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but your strawman argument isn't going to work on me.
Let me give you some realistic, personal background: ZvP has historically been my worst MU. When I dominate Zerg and Terran alike, I will lose upwards of 70% or more of my ZvP games... that is... until I stopped being stubborn and started playing more with the infestor.
Here are some of my common problems when I use non-infestor based armies (trying to keep it as short as possible):
Zerg has no unit that really COUNTERS the Stalker. Roaches lose in equal supply, Lings are good if they can get adequate surface area, but Protoss has enough tools to mitigate ling surrounds, Brood Lords, Mutas, Ultralisks, none of these win cost-effectively vs Stalkers in a straight-up fight. The best part is that Stalkers are about 80% as mobile as Mutalisks, which Blizzard has already shown up they think are too powerful in the ZvP MU, but still... Zerg doesn't get a unit like the Phoenix is to the Mutalisk or the Immortal is to the Roach. So we lock Stalkers down with Fungal and watch die slowly, from a nice, safe distance.
Zerg doesn't really have anything that COUNTERS the Colossus. Same story, different problem. Colossus have 9 range (compared to the Roach's 4 or the Zergling's 0), any decent Protoss will have plenty of ground units to keep Roaches/Lings at a harmless distance while the Colossus pounds out 150+ collective damage per shot to the Zerg army. The go-to argument every Protoss player presents is "CORRUPTORS, NOOB!!!" but really... let me go back to my age old argument. Corruptors do less DPS-per-supply to Colossi than Stalkers. Remember all that talk Protoss players like to throw around about how bad of a unit the Stalker is? Well, imagine if they cost 2x as much gas, didn't have blink, and couldn't target ground units... yeah... that's what you're suggesting is my counter to the Colossus.
****Note - If you played SC2 right after the fungal change, Infestor/Ling armies were found to be incredibly effective in mid-game ZvP due to the lockdown from Fungal and NP on colossi. It was nice, shit, it was OP. Zerg could lock down the entire Protoss army and trade away Minerals for high-gas-cost units. Why weren't Zergs doing this before the fungal change? Simple: Infestors weren't viable until that point for the same reason that corruptors suck. Spending 1k gas to counter 1 Colossus and then immediately losing to the 40 Stalkers accompanying that Colossus is not a winning strategy.
Zerg DOES have counters to Force Field, but they're not really good vs anything else. Baneling drops and burrow roaches come to mind immediately. Unfortunately, neither one of those are really useful vs Blinking Stalker armies that are available by the same point in the game. If Protoss is smart enough to bring an observer for the roaches or simply spread out for the bling drops, they just won't be useful (this is why we don't see either one of these used regularly).
Mutalisks suck. When I use them and win, I feel like a badass. Unfortunately, Stalkers trade well enough vs Mutalisks and have the mobility to hold off almost all harassment if they have blink. I didn't have a problem with this, it was still my go-to strategy until the Phoenix buff. Then I played a few games vs blind phoenix and realized that mutas are generally a bad tech choice in mid-game ZvP. With their new-found +2 range, a handful of phoenix really can lock down a muta flock 2-3x their size with impunity. And it's not like they're worthless otherwise, the phoenix is probably the best harassment unit Protoss has in SC2. Without viable Mutalisks, I am forced back into trying to fight the Protoss triangle of bullshit. Colossus on top of Stalkers behind force fields.
Ultralisks are a fucking waste of money.
Hydralisks are the fastest way to throw ANY ZvP regardless of Protoss' unit composition.
Fail, fail, fail.
Sure, I could play well and win some, but then the next game I would play equally well and get absolutely crushed by good force fields or proper unit control.
Then I gave up and started using Infestors (rather recently too, only about 1 month ago). It's a completely different world. Engagements happen on MY terms, not my opponents. I can defend against mid-game timing pushes. I am not depending on my opponent just being fucking terrible at this game. I get to micro instead of click and pray. And best of all, my infestors immediately lend themselves to my Brood Lord army when I get to that point in the game. It just feels better all around.
So talk shit about me being a bad player and all. Have fun with that, hopefully it gets you somewhere. But I fucking tried... I tried for over a year to make non-infestors work. It doesn't. Non-infestor is only as good as your opponent is bad, and that is no way to play (or design) any RTS game.
So you're essentially telling us that Zergs can only play Infestors in ZvP because you can't manage to pull off with non-Infestors strategies?
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.
The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.
Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...
TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.
How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons?
The question SHOULD be:
Do you really like Colossus-based PvZ so much that you are willing to keep the current iteration of the MU?
Personally, I don't like the Infestor, but it's my only option as a Zerg player. I can't fucking make anything else work because it's all worthless once Colossi hit the field.
Give me an infestor that has nice harass through IT, is mildly useful in combat through a lesser fungal, and discourages Colossi, which (IMO) currently ruin the MU, and I would be a very happy man.
No one likes Colossi, why do you even ask? Yet forgive me, but stating that Infestors are your only option is laughable. I see many pro games in which Zergs win ZvP with Lair agression (Zerglings/Roaches multi-pronged attacks, Roaches drops, Mutalisks, etc.).
it's interesting that suggesting Zerg players try difficult, micro-intensive styles that require lots of refinement and precise timing (you know, the same thing nearly every Terran and Protoss style revolve around) is always instantly decried as impossible. It's almost like using infestors for too long reduces your ability to play Starcraft.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but your strawman argument isn't going to work on me.
Let me give you some realistic, personal background: ZvP has historically been my worst MU. When I dominate Zerg and Terran alike, I will lose upwards of 70% or more of my ZvP games... that is... until I stopped being stubborn and started playing more with the infestor.
Here are some of my common problems when I use non-infestor based armies (trying to keep it as short as possible):
Zerg has no unit that really COUNTERS the Stalker. Roaches lose in equal supply, Lings are good if they can get adequate surface area, but Protoss has enough tools to mitigate ling surrounds, Brood Lords, Mutas, Ultralisks, none of these win cost-effectively vs Stalkers in a straight-up fight. The best part is that Stalkers are about 80% as mobile as Mutalisks, which Blizzard has already shown up they think are too powerful in the ZvP MU, but still... Zerg doesn't get a unit like the Phoenix is to the Mutalisk or the Immortal is to the Roach. So we lock Stalkers down with Fungal and watch die slowly, from a nice, safe distance.
Zerg doesn't really have anything that COUNTERS the Colossus. Same story, different problem. Colossus have 9 range (compared to the Roach's 4 or the Zergling's 0), any decent Protoss will have plenty of ground units to keep Roaches/Lings at a harmless distance while the Colossus pounds out 150+ collective damage per shot to the Zerg army. The go-to argument every Protoss player presents is "CORRUPTORS, NOOB!!!" but really... let me go back to my age old argument. Corruptors do less DPS-per-supply to Colossi than Stalkers. Remember all that talk Protoss players like to throw around about how bad of a unit the Stalker is? Well, imagine if they cost 2x as much gas, didn't have blink, and couldn't target ground units... yeah... that's what you're suggesting is my counter to the Colossus.
****Note - If you played SC2 right after the fungal change, Infestor/Ling armies were found to be incredibly effective in mid-game ZvP due to the lockdown from Fungal and NP on colossi. It was nice, shit, it was OP. Zerg could lock down the entire Protoss army and trade away Minerals for high-gas-cost units. Why weren't Zergs doing this before the fungal change? Simple: Infestors weren't viable until that point for the same reason that corruptors suck. Spending 1k gas to counter 1 Colossus and then immediately losing to the 40 Stalkers accompanying that Colossus is not a winning strategy.
Zerg DOES have counters to Force Field, but they're not really good vs anything else. Baneling drops and burrow roaches come to mind immediately. Unfortunately, neither one of those are really useful vs Blinking Stalker armies that are available by the same point in the game. If Protoss is smart enough to bring an observer for the roaches or simply spread out for the bling drops, they just won't be useful (this is why we don't see either one of these used regularly).
Mutalisks suck. When I use them and win, I feel like a badass. Unfortunately, Stalkers trade well enough vs Mutalisks and have the mobility to hold off almost all harassment if they have blink. I didn't have a problem with this, it was still my go-to strategy until the Phoenix buff. Then I played a few games vs blind phoenix and realized that mutas are generally a bad tech choice in mid-game ZvP. With their new-found +2 range, a handful of phoenix really can lock down a muta flock 2-3x their size with impunity. And it's not like they're worthless otherwise, the phoenix is probably the best harassment unit Protoss has in SC2. Without viable Mutalisks, I am forced back into trying to fight the Protoss triangle of bullshit. Colossus on top of Stalkers behind force fields.
Ultralisks are a fucking waste of money.
Hydralisks are the fastest way to throw ANY ZvP regardless of Protoss' unit composition.
Fail, fail, fail.
Sure, I could play well and win some, but then the next game I would play equally well and get absolutely crushed by good force fields or proper unit control.
Then I gave up and started using Infestors (rather recently too, only about 1 month ago). It's a completely different world. Engagements happen on MY terms, not my opponents. I can defend against mid-game timing pushes. I am not depending on my opponent just being fucking terrible at this game. I get to micro instead of click and pray. And best of all, my infestors immediately lend themselves to my Brood Lord army when I get to that point in the game. It just feels better all around.
So talk shit about me being a bad player and all. Have fun with that, hopefully it gets you somewhere. But I fucking tried... I tried for over a year to make non-infestors work. It doesn't. Non-infestor is only as good as your opponent is bad, and that is no way to play (or design) any RTS game.
So you're essentially telling us that Zergs can only play Infestors in ZvP because you can't manage to pull off with non-Infestors strategies?
Being at the top of Master league, if I can't do it, 99.9% of other SC2 players can't either. So, sure, I guess I'm ok with saying that.
But on a more personal level, it's the WAY i lose.
When I lose ZvZ or ZvT, I know where I fucked up and can make a small adjustment in my mechanics to fix that problem. There is a clear path before me on how to get better results. When I lose ZvP without using large amounts of infestors, it's a giant question-mark. In order to consistently beat THAT THING that just killed me (mind you, there are lots of these things in ZvP, we're just talking about whatever that last game was), I would have to do EVERYTHING several notches better. Tighter macro, better multi-tasking, better positioning, etc etc etc. Not that I'm not working on all these things when I play, but in ZvP, it's no contest. I don't barely lose fights and the game topples down from there, I don't point back at a stupid engagement where I gave away too many X and that cost me the game. It's 1 fight and Protoss ended it with more supply than he started. How the fuck do I fight against that?
On November 10 2012 01:40 PanN wrote: to anyone saying "remove the ability to NP massive units" you might as well say "remove NP".
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.
The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.
Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...
TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.
How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons?
The question SHOULD be:
Do you really like Colossus-based PvZ so much that you are willing to keep the current iteration of the MU?
Personally, I don't like the Infestor, but it's my only option as a Zerg player. I can't fucking make anything else work because it's all worthless once Colossi hit the field.
Give me an infestor that has nice harass through IT, is mildly useful in combat through a lesser fungal, and discourages Colossi, which (IMO) currently ruin the MU, and I would be a very happy man.
No one likes Colossi, why do you even ask? Yet forgive me, but stating that Infestors are your only option is laughable. I see many pro games in which Zergs win ZvP with Lair agression (Zerglings/Roaches multi-pronged attacks, Roaches drops, Mutalisks, etc.).
it's interesting that suggesting Zerg players try difficult, micro-intensive styles that require lots of refinement and precise timing (you know, the same thing nearly every Terran and Protoss style revolve around) is always instantly decried as impossible. It's almost like using infestors for too long reduces your ability to play Starcraft.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but your strawman argument isn't going to work on me.
Let me give you some realistic, personal background: ZvP has historically been my worst MU. When I dominate Zerg and Terran alike, I will lose upwards of 70% or more of my ZvP games... that is... until I stopped being stubborn and started playing more with the infestor.
Here are some of my common problems when I use non-infestor based armies (trying to keep it as short as possible):
Zerg has no unit that really COUNTERS the Stalker. Roaches lose in equal supply, Lings are good if they can get adequate surface area, but Protoss has enough tools to mitigate ling surrounds, Brood Lords, Mutas, Ultralisks, none of these win cost-effectively vs Stalkers in a straight-up fight. The best part is that Stalkers are about 80% as mobile as Mutalisks, which Blizzard has already shown up they think are too powerful in the ZvP MU, but still... Zerg doesn't get a unit like the Phoenix is to the Mutalisk or the Immortal is to the Roach. So we lock Stalkers down with Fungal and watch die slowly, from a nice, safe distance.
Zerg doesn't really have anything that COUNTERS the Colossus. Same story, different problem. Colossus have 9 range (compared to the Roach's 4 or the Zergling's 0), any decent Protoss will have plenty of ground units to keep Roaches/Lings at a harmless distance while the Colossus pounds out 150+ collective damage per shot to the Zerg army. The go-to argument every Protoss player presents is "CORRUPTORS, NOOB!!!" but really... let me go back to my age old argument. Corruptors do less DPS-per-supply to Colossi than Stalkers. Remember all that talk Protoss players like to throw around about how bad of a unit the Stalker is? Well, imagine if they cost 2x as much gas, didn't have blink, and couldn't target ground units... yeah... that's what you're suggesting is my counter to the Colossus.
****Note - If you played SC2 right after the fungal change, Infestor/Ling armies were found to be incredibly effective in mid-game ZvP due to the lockdown from Fungal and NP on colossi. It was nice, shit, it was OP. Zerg could lock down the entire Protoss army and trade away Minerals for high-gas-cost units. Why weren't Zergs doing this before the fungal change? Simple: Infestors weren't viable until that point for the same reason that corruptors suck. Spending 1k gas to counter 1 Colossus and then immediately losing to the 40 Stalkers accompanying that Colossus is not a winning strategy.
Zerg DOES have counters to Force Field, but they're not really good vs anything else. Baneling drops and burrow roaches come to mind immediately. Unfortunately, neither one of those are really useful vs Blinking Stalker armies that are available by the same point in the game. If Protoss is smart enough to bring an observer for the roaches or simply spread out for the bling drops, they just won't be useful (this is why we don't see either one of these used regularly).
Mutalisks suck. When I use them and win, I feel like a badass. Unfortunately, Stalkers trade well enough vs Mutalisks and have the mobility to hold off almost all harassment if they have blink. I didn't have a problem with this, it was still my go-to strategy until the Phoenix buff. Then I played a few games vs blind phoenix and realized that mutas are generally a bad tech choice in mid-game ZvP. With their new-found +2 range, a handful of phoenix really can lock down a muta flock 2-3x their size with impunity. And it's not like they're worthless otherwise, the phoenix is probably the best harassment unit Protoss has in SC2. Without viable Mutalisks, I am forced back into trying to fight the Protoss triangle of bullshit. Colossus on top of Stalkers behind force fields.
Ultralisks are a fucking waste of money.
Hydralisks are the fastest way to throw ANY ZvP regardless of Protoss' unit composition.
Fail, fail, fail.
Sure, I could play well and win some, but then the next game I would play equally well and get absolutely crushed by good force fields or proper unit control.
Then I gave up and started using Infestors (rather recently too, only about 1 month ago). It's a completely different world. Engagements happen on MY terms, not my opponents. I can defend against mid-game timing pushes. I am not depending on my opponent just being fucking terrible at this game. I get to micro instead of click and pray. And best of all, my infestors immediately lend themselves to my Brood Lord army when I get to that point in the game. It just feels better all around.
So talk shit about me being a bad player and all. Have fun with that, hopefully it gets you somewhere. But I fucking tried... I tried for over a year to make non-infestors work. It doesn't. Non-infestor is only as good as your opponent is bad, and that is no way to play (or design) any RTS game.
So you're essentially telling us that Zergs can only play Infestors in ZvP because you can't manage to pull off with non-Infestors strategies?
Being at the top of Master league, if I can't do it, 99.9% of other SC2 players can't either. So, sure, I guess I'm ok with saying that.
Nice logic then. I'm mid-GM and I'm awful with mech in TvT, so since I'm better than 99,9999% of the other Terrans they should not play mech in TvT because I can't pull it off. Makes any sense?
Besides, the point of Lair agression in ZvP is precisely to harass/trade so the Protoss can't easily reach his Sentry/Stalker/Colossi (or Storm if Mutas) max army, but whatever. The sure thing is you have absolutely no right to peremptorily assert that “only Infestors are viable in ZvP” because you fail when playing something else.
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ.
Yeah, good thing nobody listens to you then. Just because you don't play the matchup doesn't mean it can go to hell. Please, think rationally before you post.
And exactly why would Mutalisk wars in ZvZ mean the ruin of the match-up? Is it currently more exciting to wonder at each battle which eggs are yours? Are Roaches wars that much more fascinating? I'm sorry but the ZvZ argument is quite derisory. It's like when you talk about reverting the Queen range buff and some Zerg comes and solemny says “but that would ruin ZvZ early game”. Yeah, OK...
Because right now you can do stuff like ling-inf-ultra, roach/hydra-inf, or ling muta. After the nerf of fungal only mutas would be viable, because these compositions don't have any anti-air other than the infestor. Hydras won't work vs mutas because they're just way, way too slow.
It's just idiotic. If fungal wouldn't hit air, storm shouldn't hit air either. Bring on ZvP mass muta After all, ruining one matchup isn't really a problem, right?
Why the hell shouldn't storm hit air if fungal can't? That's like saying since zealots can't hit air marines shouldn't be able to hit air. Thor's can hit air, why can't my colossus hit air????
Storms not hitting air is idiotic; just like fungal not hitting air. That was kind of my point, yes.
Being at the top of Master league, if I can't do it, 99.9% of other SC2 players can't either. So, sure, I guess I'm ok with saying that.
But on a more personal level, it's the WAY i lose.
When I lose ZvZ or ZvT, I know where I fucked up and can make a small adjustment in my mechanics to fix that problem. There is a clear path before me on how to get better results. When I lose ZvP without using large amounts of infestors, it's a giant question-mark. In order to consistently beat THAT THING that just killed me (mind you, there are lots of these things in ZvP, we're just talking about whatever that last game was), I would have to do EVERYTHING several notches better. Tighter macro, better multi-tasking, better positioning, etc etc etc. Not that I'm not working on all these things when I play, but in ZvP, it's no contest. I don't barely lose fights and the game topples down from there, I don't point back at a stupid engagement where I gave away too many X and that cost me the game. It's 1 fight and Protoss ended it with more supply than he started. How the fuck do I fight against that?
With infestors...
What you've just described is the EXACT feeling that both a good amount of terrans and protoss players feel every time they play against zerg. By using your own arguments we can see that a large amount of zergs are doing well it seems only because of the overpowerd state of infestors and bl/infestor. The disparity between the skill of using this unit mix and defeating it is so extremely huge, that we even saw korean professional terrans, who get PAID to play this game, lose to zergs who by far do not get as much money at the last MLG. This isnt just in the profession scene, as you can easily lose a game as terran or protoss that you had a huge advantage in as soon as infestors hit the field and the zerg simply turtles to bl/infestor and just laughs at you.
And about you protoss dilemma, how would changing the root of fungal to a slow affect army movement for the toss? Simple, it allows him to actually move during the battle, allowing blink stalkers to blink forward, archons to move in range and he will be able to actually retreat if he gets into a bad position. How OP is that?! A player who is able to actually control his units is unheard of!
Do you actually see how ridiculous your argument is? So what, if he blinks into your force he will kill some brood lords, he could even beat your army if he has an advantage. If he wins, he deserves it, because as it is right now, zergs are winning engagements where they are outnumbered and should lose, but fungals and the sheer amount of broodlings kills the protoss army before it gets in range. Stalkers die to broodlings, it doesnt matter if they're away from your broodlords or under them.
Terrans on the other hand will actually be able to move and micro their marines and marauders out of the chain fungals, preventing the terran army from dying to basically two fungals. Dont believe me? Then watch flash vs life on entombed valley where flash is in a good position all game, get out of position ONCE and instantly loses. Its not a matter of skill at that point, its the fact that no matter how far into the game you are, two seconds is all it takes as a terran to lose the game, no matter how well off he was before that point.
Its this sheer power of infestors that dont simply change the game within two seconds, but win it, that frustrates basically all terran and protoss players. So who are you to say that infestors must not be nerfed at the expense of almost 2/3 of the community? What country do you rule as dictator, please tell us...
^ Don't make me out to be defending Fungal, I'm not. That ability is broke as fuck and stupid.
The whole conversation that lead up to this specific discussion started a few pages back. I mentioned how I would much rather see NP be a significant spell on the Infestor and fungal be more of a "support" type ability rather than the powerhouse AoE nuke/lockdown function that it currently provides.
Then people started talking about how OP NP is and IT and all that stuff.
Then I responded with how that sounds far better to me than what we currently have. ZvP without fungal death traps, and Colossus sounds quite good to me.
Mr. dwf over here tried to make me sound like a noob bitching cuz I don't know how to micro, and I am just trying to put things into perspective.
Micro isn't the problem, or at least, it's not the ONLY problem.
Force Field does as much anti-micro to Zerg as Fungal does to Protoss. To make matters worse, Protoss has useful units behind those Force Fields. Both Colossi and Blink Stalkers enjoy basically unchecked domination of all non-Infestor Zerg units.
I, personally, have never liked Infestor play and stubbornly refused to embrace it until just recently. I still don't use large amounts of infestors in ZvZ or ZvT and I do just fine, but that shit doesn't fucking work in ZvP, unless you like losing matches randomly and having no simple answer to how you could have won. That is all I'm saying.
I am not standing on a soap box toting how its Zergs time to shine and P and T players are FINALLY SEEING THINGS FROM MY END SO HA!
No... Fungal is bullshit, it feels bad, it makes games boring, I'd LOVE to see it changed.
I can't say the same for IT or NP though, I think IT is fine, I'd like to see NP buffed quite honestly because I feel that it pushes the metagame forward in a GOOD way by discouraging bad play rather than encouraging it.
But fungal isn't the only problem in SC2. ZvP specifically is full of bullshit mechanics. Blizzard has a lot of work to do, but they're too busy trying to make widow-mine-turret-things work.
On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote: How about fungal doesn`t affect air units.
So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ.
Yeah, good thing nobody listens to you then. Just because you don't play the matchup doesn't mean it can go to hell. Please, think rationally before you post.
So you're saying one mirror match up trumps non-mirrors?
He's right in saying balance issues don't occur in mirrors, so what if you have to play Mutas. The matchup is volatile and coinflippy as fuck as it is already.
You must confuse zvz with pvp. There is a reason Nestea used and Life now is zvz monsters. It is volatile but it is not not coinflippy at all. Ruining 1 matchup for the sake of 2 others that maybe will be fixed is not the way it should go you know.
In the long run yes, but short term makes zero sense to put up knowing that 2 match ups can be fixed but not doing anything for the sake of one.
Actually, you don't know 2 match ups will be fixed however you do know that one will be ruined. You are just gambling in the hope it will fix something.
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move.
I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.
The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.
Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...
TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.
How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons?
The question SHOULD be:
Do you really like Colossus-based PvZ so much that you are willing to keep the current iteration of the MU?
Personally, I don't like the Infestor, but it's my only option as a Zerg player. I can't fucking make anything else work because it's all worthless once Colossi hit the field.
Give me an infestor that has nice harass through IT, is mildly useful in combat through a lesser fungal, and discourages Colossi, which (IMO) currently ruin the MU, and I would be a very happy man.
No one likes Colossi, why do you even ask? Yet forgive me, but stating that Infestors are your only option is laughable. I see many pro games in which Zergs win ZvP with Lair agression (Zerglings/Roaches multi-pronged attacks, Roaches drops, Mutalisks, etc.).
it's interesting that suggesting Zerg players try difficult, micro-intensive styles that require lots of refinement and precise timing (you know, the same thing nearly every Terran and Protoss style revolve around) is always instantly decried as impossible. It's almost like using infestors for too long reduces your ability to play Starcraft.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but your strawman argument isn't going to work on me.
Let me give you some realistic, personal background: ZvP has historically been my worst MU. When I dominate Zerg and Terran alike, I will lose upwards of 70% or more of my ZvP games... that is... until I stopped being stubborn and started playing more with the infestor.
Here are some of my common problems when I use non-infestor based armies (trying to keep it as short as possible):
Zerg has no unit that really COUNTERS the Stalker. Roaches lose in equal supply, Lings are good if they can get adequate surface area, but Protoss has enough tools to mitigate ling surrounds, Brood Lords, Mutas, Ultralisks, none of these win cost-effectively vs Stalkers in a straight-up fight. The best part is that Stalkers are about 80% as mobile as Mutalisks, which Blizzard has already shown up they think are too powerful in the ZvP MU, but still... Zerg doesn't get a unit like the Phoenix is to the Mutalisk or the Immortal is to the Roach. So we lock Stalkers down with Fungal and watch die slowly, from a nice, safe distance.
Zerg doesn't really have anything that COUNTERS the Colossus. Same story, different problem. Colossus have 9 range (compared to the Roach's 4 or the Zergling's 0), any decent Protoss will have plenty of ground units to keep Roaches/Lings at a harmless distance while the Colossus pounds out 150+ collective damage per shot to the Zerg army. The go-to argument every Protoss player presents is "CORRUPTORS, NOOB!!!" but really... let me go back to my age old argument. Corruptors do less DPS-per-supply to Colossi than Stalkers. Remember all that talk Protoss players like to throw around about how bad of a unit the Stalker is? Well, imagine if they cost 2x as much gas, didn't have blink, and couldn't target ground units... yeah... that's what you're suggesting is my counter to the Colossus.
****Note - If you played SC2 right after the fungal change, Infestor/Ling armies were found to be incredibly effective in mid-game ZvP due to the lockdown from Fungal and NP on colossi. It was nice, shit, it was OP. Zerg could lock down the entire Protoss army and trade away Minerals for high-gas-cost units. Why weren't Zergs doing this before the fungal change? Simple: Infestors weren't viable until that point for the same reason that corruptors suck. Spending 1k gas to counter 1 Colossus and then immediately losing to the 40 Stalkers accompanying that Colossus is not a winning strategy.
Zerg DOES have counters to Force Field, but they're not really good vs anything else. Baneling drops and burrow roaches come to mind immediately. Unfortunately, neither one of those are really useful vs Blinking Stalker armies that are available by the same point in the game. If Protoss is smart enough to bring an observer for the roaches or simply spread out for the bling drops, they just won't be useful (this is why we don't see either one of these used regularly).
Mutalisks suck. When I use them and win, I feel like a badass. Unfortunately, Stalkers trade well enough vs Mutalisks and have the mobility to hold off almost all harassment if they have blink. I didn't have a problem with this, it was still my go-to strategy until the Phoenix buff. Then I played a few games vs blind phoenix and realized that mutas are generally a bad tech choice in mid-game ZvP. With their new-found +2 range, a handful of phoenix really can lock down a muta flock 2-3x their size with impunity. And it's not like they're worthless otherwise, the phoenix is probably the best harassment unit Protoss has in SC2. Without viable Mutalisks, I am forced back into trying to fight the Protoss triangle of bullshit. Colossus on top of Stalkers behind force fields.
Ultralisks are a fucking waste of money.
Hydralisks are the fastest way to throw ANY ZvP regardless of Protoss' unit composition.
Fail, fail, fail.
Sure, I could play well and win some, but then the next game I would play equally well and get absolutely crushed by good force fields or proper unit control.
Then I gave up and started using Infestors (rather recently too, only about 1 month ago). It's a completely different world. Engagements happen on MY terms, not my opponents. I can defend against mid-game timing pushes. I am not depending on my opponent just being fucking terrible at this game. I get to micro instead of click and pray. And best of all, my infestors immediately lend themselves to my Brood Lord army when I get to that point in the game. It just feels better all around.
So talk shit about me being a bad player and all. Have fun with that, hopefully it gets you somewhere. But I fucking tried... I tried for over a year to make non-infestors work. It doesn't. Non-infestor is only as good as your opponent is bad, and that is no way to play (or design) any RTS game.
So you're essentially telling us that Zergs can only play Infestors in ZvP because you can't manage to pull off with non-Infestors strategies?
Being at the top of Master league, if I can't do it, 99.9% of other SC2 players can't either. So, sure, I guess I'm ok with saying that.
Nice logic then. I'm mid-GM and I'm awful with mech in TvT, so since I'm better than 99,9999% of the other Terrans they should not play mech in TvT because I can't pull it off. Makes any sense?
Besides, the point of Lair agression in ZvP is precisely to harass/trade so the Protoss can't easily reach his Sentry/Stalker/Colossi (or Storm if Mutas) max army, but whatever. The sure thing is you have absolutely no right to peremptorily assert that “only Infestors are viable in ZvP” because you fail when playing something else.
And you are talking preference vs viability here. Being a Terran, you enjoy a MU where multiple timings, unit compositions, and play styles are all considered equally viable, even at the highest levels of play... Must be nice...
Unfortunately, there is no reasonable way to compare that to ZvP where EVERY successful Zerg is going for heavy Infestor play past the 20 minute mark and EVERY successful Protoss wins late-game engagements immediately after landing a Vortex.
It must be because all us Z and P players just aren't good enough... we can't pull it off, right?
Unfortunately, there is no reasonable way to compare that to ZvP where EVERY successful Zerg is going for heavy Infestor play past the 20 minute mark and EVERY successful Protoss wins late-game engagements immediately after landing a Vortex.
What about Stephano's max roach push and numerous roach timings? What about leenock's 6/10 pool against protoss? What about Life's constant use of zergling timings to catch protoss off guard? What about when mutalisks were the units that protoss were complaining about? Your statement is so exaggerated and absurd it's no wonder you lose so many times to protoss.
I would enjoy seeing an infestor change but what are the chances of seeing bliz do this when they are so focused on the release of hots. A change to the infestor may be seen as too game changing to deal with at this time. For that reason only I root for whichever change would have the least drastic effect on the game, and could be implemented without any serious testing (if this is even feasible).
Unfortunately, there is no reasonable way to compare that to ZvP where EVERY successful Zerg is going for heavy Infestor play past the 20 minute mark and EVERY successful Protoss wins late-game engagements immediately after landing a Vortex.
What about Stephano's max roach push and numerous roach timings? What about leenock's 6/10 pool against protoss? What about Life's constant use of zergling timings to catch protoss off guard? What about when mutalisks were the units that protoss were complaining about? Your statement is so exaggerated and absurd it's no wonder you lose so many times to protoss.
These both happen in the early game, roach max hitting around 12 min and the early pools around the 4 minute mark.
Not even talking about pre-infestor timing builds.
This is a thread about infestors, i'm talking about infestors and the problems surrounding them.
Unfortunately, people would rather skip past 1/2 the stuff I'm typing and take cheap shots at me for being the bad guy.
On November 10 2012 05:56 Jermstuddog wrote: Force Field does as much anti-micro to Zerg as Fungal does to Protoss.
Ah yes, I forgot that Force Field did damage on its own, affected air units and that on top of that, Sentries had the ability to shower the opponent's army in little crystal capsules which, upon exploding, free a temporary mini-Zealot packed with a psionic Gauss gun. No, seriously, first comparing Infestors to Dark Archons, then Fungal to Force Field? Do you see Sentries used in lategame in any match-up? Sentries are one of the worst things in SC2 from a design perspective, OK, but at least at some point they just fade out. They're only dominant for a while.
On November 10 2012 06:12 Jermstuddog wrote: And you are talking preference vs viability here. Being a Terran, you enjoy a MU where multiple timings, unit compositions, and play styles are all considered equally viable, even at the highest levels of play... Must be nice...
Unfortunately, there is no reasonable way to compare that to ZvP where EVERY successful Zerg is going for heavy Infestor play past the 20 minute mark and EVERY successful Protoss wins late-game engagements immediately after landing a Vortex.
It must be because all us Z and P players just aren't good enough... we can't pull it off, right?
Bolded the important part. We're talking about midgame possibilities and you answer saying “but you have to get Infestors by lategame”. So? Makes as much sense as someone talking about the different possibilities in midgame TvT and then someone else coming and replying “but you have to get BC/Vikings/Ravens by lategame !” It's simply irrelevant. There are Infestor-free possibilities in midgame ZvP; then, indeed, when Zerg transitions to Hive/lategame, he gets Infestors. But before, he may have played midgame without them (Mutalisks, Zerglings/Roaches, etc.).
On November 10 2012 05:56 Jermstuddog wrote: Force Field does as much anti-micro to Zerg as Fungal does to Protoss.
Ah yes, I forgot that Force Field did damage on its own, affected air units and that on top of that, Sentries had the ability to shower the opponent's army in little crystal capsules which, upon exploding, free a temporary mini-Zealot packed with a psionic Gauss gun. No, seriously, first comparing Infestors to Dark Archons, then Fungal to Force Field? Do you see Sentries used in lategame in any match-up? Sentries are one of the worst things in SC2 from a design perspective, OK, but at least at some point they just fade out. They're only dominant for a while.
On November 10 2012 06:12 Jermstuddog wrote: And you are talking preference vs viability here. Being a Terran, you enjoy a MU where multiple timings, unit compositions, and play styles are all considered equally viable, even at the highest levels of play... Must be nice...
Unfortunately, there is no reasonable way to compare that to ZvP where EVERY successful Zerg is going for heavy Infestor play past the 20 minute mark and EVERY successful Protoss wins late-game engagements immediately after landing a Vortex.
It must be because all us Z and P players just aren't good enough... we can't pull it off, right?
Bolded the important part. We're talking about midgame possibilities and you answer saying “but you have to get Infestors by lategame”. So? Makes as much sense as someone talking about the different possibilities in midgame TvT and then someone else coming and replying “but you have to get BC/Vikings/Ravens by lategame !” It's simply irrelevant. There are Infestor-free possibilities in midgame ZvP; then, indeed, when Zerg transitions to Hive/lategame, he gets Infestors. But before, he may have played midgame without them (Mutalisks, Zerglings/Roaches, etc.).
So... we both agree then that ZvP isn't horrible before the ~15 minute mark where Colossi start hitting the field and making the entire Zerg army irrelevant?
I don't disagree with basically any of your points in this post except that I still don't see any problem with the Infested Terran ability in general. When Zerg doesn't have 20-30 Infestors, ITs are not problematic in the slightest.
I guess we go back to when you jumped all over me for seeing ZvP as one bullshit mechanic countering the other. Outside of Infestors, how does Zerg fight a late-game Protoss army?
@dwf: I just went back 2 pages and just noticed your post about mid-game aggression. Seriously didn't even see that until now. Think that's what got you going down this path?
I wasn't even talking about Lair-aggression or anything like that. It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. ZvP is fine until that point.
I am even of the mind that if Blizzard could somehow force ZvP back into a 1 base P vs 2 base Z scenario like we had 2 years ago, the MU would be a lot more interesting. Early engagements are fun and interesting to watch from both sides.
The problem is that ZvP has an incredibly linear path it follows with only a handful of variations, but they all end up in the same place by the 20 minute mark, and that's when everything goes to shit.
Infestors are part of the problem, but so are Colossi.
Again, the personal side of things, I only bothered to start using infestors because I can't fucking fight Colossi without them. There is just no way once they get up to meaningful numbers. Then, the more you play with infestors, the more you notice that they're the only damn thing worth making. Everything else is just a waste of money. The Protoss army is THAT MUCH better than the Zerg army.
I am not arguing against a fungal nerf, I think that should be obvious. But for ZvP, I think its just a shitty MU that heavily favors infestor usage over ANYTHING else. Reduce Fungal effectiveness without addressing the other things, and we'll just see the MU get completely dominated by Protoss.
A good balance change would be to change the lead designers into different people who actually followed and understood the professional Brood War scene, but also who have the will and talent to avoid the "New Super Mario Bros" syndrome
On November 10 2012 08:03 President Dead wrote: I don't think the Infestor should change at all. Where's the question?
This thread is given the infestor should be changed, how should it be changed? Feel free to make your own thread, asking your own question, if you feel that this thread is somehow unfair.
On November 10 2012 06:27 NesquiKGG wrote: you guys crying about infestors... watch Lucifron vs Stephano (LIVE) @ Stim to the Win .. all i can say now to you ragekids and flamers L2P!
i love how zerg users make such comments when talking about balance issues + come up with a theory that one tournament doesnt mean much when zerg dominates in it.
I think the main problem is infestors counter all in large numbers . So blizz gotta find a way to make zerg users to not make "only" infestors. I think 3 supply and slight a bit of IT nerf would be fine.
Seriously, fungal should be able to affect your own units, its completely illogical otherwise.. EMP affects your own units, Storm, Siege tank fire, HSM, Forcefields (lol)...
I'm glad at least people finally have realized how imba zerg is ^^ excited to see what they decide to change, nice poll
On November 10 2012 06:27 NesquiKGG wrote: you guys crying about infestors... watch Lucifron vs Stephano (LIVE) @ Stim to the Win .. all i can say now to you ragekids and flamers L2P!
i love how zerg users make such comments when talking about balance issues + come up with a theory that one tournament doesnt mean much when zerg dominates in it.
I think the main problem is infestors counter all in large numbers . So blizz gotta find a way to make zerg users to not make "only" infestors. I think 3 supply and slight a bit of IT nerf would be fine.
They're still only gonna make infestors. Just less of them. There is no other units I would prefer over broodlord infestor. I don't give a shit if you cut my max infestors from 20+ to 8.
Something I dont understand. In PvT if Protoss builds HT's Terran answers asap with ghosts. But in ZvT I never see ghosts when Zerg builds infestors. Gas doesnt seem to be the problem. Why?
On November 11 2012 00:00 Yrr wrote: Something I dont understand. In PvT if Protoss builds HT's Terran answers asap with ghosts. But in ZvT I never see ghosts when Zerg builds infestors. Gas doesnt seem to be the problem. Why?
EMP doesnt cover enough area to be really efficient against mass infestors. Snipe can be useful, but.... hard to use because of fungle revealing cloacked units
Fungal range reduced to 6, radius increased to 2.5. Energy cost increased to 125(maybe more?) IT's mana cost changed to 30(maybe not?).
The supply might as well get buffed to 5(maybe?), increased cost, increased size, increased build time(70?), pathogen glands buff the energy regen speed to .7something(?) I mean, seriously, this way we still have a BIG, STRONG, GAMECHANGING ability, but it will be way harder to do it.
Chain fungals will be really tough to do, since you need to have a lot of supply in unit that will be useless for quite some time after using it's main ability once. Compare it to HT's in TvP. Most of those guys die after using one storm.
Come on, guys, we've all been excited when NaDa vs Gorush Plague happened.
On November 11 2012 00:00 Yrr wrote: Something I dont understand. In PvT if Protoss builds HT's Terran answers asap with ghosts. But in ZvT I never see ghosts when Zerg builds infestors. Gas doesnt seem to be the problem. Why?
EMP doesnt cover enough area to be really efficient against mass infestors. Snipe can be useful, but.... hard to use because of fungle revealing cloacked units
You also miss out the range on BLs and the fact that Overseers are really tough, unlike Observers.
On November 11 2012 00:14 DidYuhim wrote: How about a BIG, MAJOR change for infestor?
Fungal range reduced to 6, radius increased to 2.5. Energy cost increased to 125(maybe more?) IT's mana cost changed to 30(maybe not?).
The supply might as well get buffed to 5(maybe?), increased cost, increased size, increased build time(70?), pathogen glands buff the energy regen speed to .7something(?) I mean, seriously, this way we still have a BIG, STRONG, GAMECHANGING ability, but it will be way harder to do it.
Chain fungals will be really tough to do, since you need to have a lot of supply in unit that will be useless for quite some time after using it's main ability once. Compare it to HT's in TvP. Most of those guys die after using one storm.
Come on, guys, we've all been excited when NaDa vs Gorush Plague happened.
Infestors would just die before they get the fungals off most of the time. No need for these changes
On November 11 2012 00:22 vojnik wrote: i would eather go with slow over root or root but with projectile, applying both will just make the infestor a joke
Not when they still have full power IT, NP, and burrow move.
On November 11 2012 00:00 Yrr wrote: Something I dont understand. In PvT if Protoss builds HT's Terran answers asap with ghosts. But in ZvT I never see ghosts when Zerg builds infestors. Gas doesnt seem to be the problem. Why?
EMP doesnt cover enough area to be really efficient against mass infestors. Snipe can be useful, but.... hard to use because of fungle revealing cloacked units
You also miss out the range on BLs and the fact that Overseers are really tough, unlike Observers.
Ghosts can be effective vs infestors, but how many do you make? if the enemy has like 12-15 infestors you won't hit that area.
On November 11 2012 00:14 DidYuhim wrote: How about a BIG, MAJOR change for infestor?
Fungal range reduced to 6, radius increased to 2.5. Energy cost increased to 125(maybe more?) IT's mana cost changed to 30(maybe not?).
The supply might as well get buffed to 5(maybe?), increased cost, increased size, increased build time(70?), pathogen glands buff the energy regen speed to .7something(?) I mean, seriously, this way we still have a BIG, STRONG, GAMECHANGING ability, but it will be way harder to do it.
Chain fungals will be really tough to do, since you need to have a lot of supply in unit that will be useless for quite some time after using it's main ability once. Compare it to HT's in TvP. Most of those guys die after using one storm.
Come on, guys, we've all been excited when NaDa vs Gorush Plague happened.
Infestors would just die before they get the fungals off most of the time. No need for these changes
Buff health a bit, duh. Sure, a 90 health infestor with 150+ energy is a delicious target for feedback.
I'm just saying we might be looking in wrong direction. There is certainly a problem of a race being able to max on one unit and beat everything, but there are different ways of dealing with it.
On November 11 2012 00:22 vojnik wrote: i would eather go with slow over root or root but with projectile, applying both will just make the infestor a joke
Not when they still have full power IT, NP, and burrow move.
well with the ability to micro away with the projectile or the ensnare will not make the fungals as efficient as they are now, so u cannot plan 100% your energy, this means you might cast more FG, you might get your infestors killed easier etc etc. Problem i see with infestors at the moment is in hands of a good zerg player they can minimize energy usage a lot and have most infestors with full energy for ITs. I dont see Neural being much of a problem other than the mothership really as it costs lot of energy.
I just hate non-interactive abilities like the current state of fungal growth. Make it a projectile or make it slow but not root. Better yet, make it not stick on units but stick to the area so units can leave the fungal'd area. This creates tension and keeps armies moving. The viper's new aoe ability is definitely a step in the right direction.
On November 11 2012 00:00 Yrr wrote: Something I dont understand. In PvT if Protoss builds HT's Terran answers asap with ghosts. But in ZvT I never see ghosts when Zerg builds infestors. Gas doesnt seem to be the problem. Why?
Ghosts are never a bad thing to have in PvT. Even though they're especially good against HT/archon/immortal, they still help you out regardless of what's on the field.
In TvZ on the other hand, you're looking at something totally different. The only unit the ghost can be effective against is the infestor. Against anything else it's pretty well useless, and when you consider that it strangles your barracks production capability by demanding tech labs and that each one costs 200 minerals (more than any other Terran unit except BCs and thors) you begin to understand why Terrans try to avoid them. Even with ghosts on the field, infestors are very big and with anywhere from 10-25 infestors being commonplace, you'd need a lot of ghosts to neutralize them, and you don't want a lot of ghosts. You dramatically increase your vulnerability to tech switches by having them around.
On November 11 2012 00:14 DidYuhim wrote: How about a BIG, MAJOR change for infestor?
Fungal range reduced to 6, radius increased to 2.5. Energy cost increased to 125(maybe more?) IT's mana cost changed to 30(maybe not?).
The supply might as well get buffed to 5(maybe?), increased cost, increased size, increased build time(70?), pathogen glands buff the energy regen speed to .7something(?) I mean, seriously, this way we still have a BIG, STRONG, GAMECHANGING ability, but it will be way harder to do it.
Chain fungals will be really tough to do, since you need to have a lot of supply in unit that will be useless for quite some time after using it's main ability once. Compare it to HT's in TvP. Most of those guys die after using one storm.
Come on, guys, we've all been excited when NaDa vs Gorush Plague happened.
Defilers cost 50/150 and 2 supply, had a build time of 50 and had consume. Plague had a range of 9 and it could do 300 damage.
You don't want the defiler or plague back; you want the infestor to be irrelevant.
How about first of all bringing infestors inline with Ghost and HT by reduceing fungal radius from 2.2 to 1.5
people still don't realise that sure fungal does less dmg, but it HITS fucking twice the area than EMP Or Storm, making it dps was as strong as full storm.
On November 11 2012 01:45 freetgy wrote: How about first of all bringing infestors inline with Ghost and HT by reduceing fungal radius from 2.2 to 1.5
people still don't realise that sure fungal does less dmg, but it HITS fucking twice the area than EMP Or Storm, making it dps was as strong as full storm.
Only voted "yes" to making it 3 supply. Could be tried out at least. It seems that currently zergs get away with heavily overmaking infestors. Whereas, ideally, even smaller amounts of infestors should be enough to bring some spells into battles.
I didn't read through the whole thread, but maybe Infestor could use similar mechanic as Reaver did? Buy Infested Terrans, stack them to certain limit or something like that. They're similar in visual design too, so... :D And Fungal Growth affecting your own units would make it more micro intensive, not just placing the spell anywhere on enemy units...
On November 11 2012 00:00 Yrr wrote: Something I dont understand. In PvT if Protoss builds HT's Terran answers asap with ghosts. But in ZvT I never see ghosts when Zerg builds infestors. Gas doesnt seem to be the problem. Why?
EMP doesnt cover enough area to be really efficient against mass infestors. Snipe can be useful, but.... hard to use because of fungle revealing cloacked units
Also EMP removes a maximum of 100 energy. You have to hit a full energy infestor twice to remove all its energy, hit it once and it can still fungal.
On November 08 2012 18:29 Valikyr wrote: I think they should replace fungal with another spell. Give us some PLAGUUU or somethng, It just has to be a spell that you can avoid by in-battle micro and not just the way you engage.
How do you avoid plague with in-battle micro? It hits you once and all the units go to 1-3hp. There's no micro to counter it; if it hits there's nothing you can do about it. At least with fungal you can try to break the chain...
This kind of post makes me think most people just jump on the bandwagon without thinking about it at all.
they should make infestors more skilled and thus infestors no longer disable dropping from medivacs/warp prisms allowing templar drops/ghost drops to be more viable
There are easy fixes they can implement that don't completely throw off the balance of the game.
EMP does not hit enough infestors, but we all know that infestors are slightly big for being a caster. Many players advocate a range increase in feedback and EMP, but this would break other parts of the game. Imagine such a simple thing as medivacs, these can now be destroyed from a ridiculous range where the HT can be protected. Just an example of how complex a change like this could become.
Infestor energy efficiency can also be a problem. Right now the cost of their "problem spells" are: Fungal growth, 75 energy Infested Terran, 25 energy
This means that when combat starts, every infestor can cast 2 fungals and then 2 Infested terrans, or save energy to throw a 3rd fungal slightly later.
They could implement some very simple changes to change things up.
-Decrease the size of infestors so EMP/AOE can be more punishing vs bad positioning/clumping -Increase the energy cost of Infested Terrans to 30 energy (2 less eggs at max energy) -Remove the ability to upgrade Infested Terrans via evolution chamber
*Optional but probably too aggressive* -Increase the cost of Fungal Growth to 100 energy (2 fungals per infestor if saved up, but no Infested Terrans or slightly delayed 3rd fungal per infestor, talking late game energy saved up levels here)
They could change Fungal Growth to become a slow instead of root, but that is probably something that they will consider when smaller fixes and alterations fail to change the power of infestors in high numbers.
I liked these suggestion the best: - increasing supply to 3 - slow instead of root - hp of infested terran a funcion of egg hp
Of course, one can't add all the changes, that would be a much too hard nerf. I think the 3 instad of 2 supply would make the most sense, as it would be much harder to mass in large numbers which I see as the biggest problem for lategame.
Before lategame the biggest problem is probably the complete root. I think a slow would be good enough. Maybe 70% at the start and 30% at the end of the duration? Or just 50% throughout.
I think there are plenty of ways to nerf the festor without crippling zerg, and many have already been stated.
Here's a few I liked and I've added a few:
-Increase energy cost of fungals -Increase cost of infestors themselves (more gas) -Decrease infestor movement speed on and off creep -Make burrow movement an upgrade for infestor -Decrease infested marine duration, atk speed, hp, etc. -Make infested marines unable to benefit from evolution chamber upgrades -Increase time it takes for infested marines to hatch from eggs -Decrease fungal cast range
It's remarkable, even after the upswell of negativity over the past month and the community becoming increasingly vocal about their concerns Blizzard chooses to remain passive. Obviously 1 tournament doesnt tell the whole story, but Lone Star Clash LoL stream has almost 2x the viewers of both SC2 streams combined. Sad to see Blizzard letting SC2 die, I guess they really think HOTS is going to be a savior (which is a joke lol).
What if they put the plague mechanic on it, and made it so that fungal itself cannot kill anything? Non-lethal. The lowest fungal growth can damage is down to 1 hp. This would help the self-sufficiency issue that the infestor faces, and forces it more into the support role it's supposed to be in.
maybe do the 3 food change to the infestor, doing all those would be such a nerf. if you do all those you better buff something else, like hydra range or speed...
I love the Idea that fungal can not kill by itself a la Plague, but I hate the Idea of increasing its supply (I want a variety of units to drop down 1 supply; siege tank, hydra [with decreased stats], immortal)
I honestly have no idea what to do about infested Terrans, but I think its a stupid spell anyway... remember when It was a spell for the overseer?!?!?
Hm, well I'd prefer fungal becoming closer to BW's plague (keeping current radius, an AoE that doesn't stick on units but affects an area much like storm), and maybe incorporate slowing movement/slowing attack speed as well while decreasing damage done. It might be too imba like this, too. Not sure. 3 food infestors do sound good.
Its a well known complain SC2 units clump way too much which makes battles uninteresting. Fungsl is one of the few spells in game that punishes this. Peopl say BW is mechanically more challenging because you have to control your units in small chunks the whole time. SC2 allows you to do both. one big army or many smaller ones with the latter being good against the fungal at a cost of some skill from player, but they prefer to do the former and then complain game doesnt require skill.
One day we may see Flash/Bisu just playing like that and never having more than 3 units fungaled at the same time and people will praise how sc2 rewards mad skills.
About Infested Terran I think this one looks a bit OP when you have too many of them. at low number they seem fine. Id vote for making Infestors 3 supply instead. It would reduce IT numbers unless you really push for this kind of strategy, and it doesnt change too much on fungal side
Neural seems fine and works as the opposite of IT.Its better when you have low Infestor count but as Infestor numbers increases, IT becomes better
I like the idea of making infestors a smaller model size, 3 supply, and fungal a slow.
I think neural parasite on massive units is one of its main uses, and should be kept, and the mothership removed to solve that issue (obviously with Protoss tweaks to fill that gap).
I don't like the idea of infested terrans costing supply, but I wholly support the idea of infested terrans not benefitting from any upgrades. Even a shortened timespan, or removing armor on the eggs. But targeting eggs in the first place seems like a bad idea.
- infestor 3 supply - infested terran energy cost to 30 & 0.5/1 army supply per each and lower armor of the egg because it's tanking too much dmg - fungal growth ~80% slow instead of immobilization
On November 11 2012 04:02 blackbrrd wrote: I liked these suggestion the best: - increasing supply to 3 - slow instead of root - hp of infested terran a funcion of egg hp
Of course, one can't add all the changes, that would be a much too hard nerf. I think the 3 instad of 2 supply would make the most sense, as it would be much harder to mass in large numbers which I see as the biggest problem for lategame.
Before lategame the biggest problem is probably the complete root. I think a slow would be good enough. Maybe 70% at the start and 30% at the end of the duration? Or just 50% throughout.
I don't agree with the 3 supply instead of 2, because Zerg will still mass as many infestors as possible within that supply limit. The unit is just too good to not get, I believe the best approach would be to nerf them in such a way that you only want to get 6-9 or that way they become as desirable as the other casters of the other races.
The infestors need to have diminishing returns and at the moment they don't. The real culprits here are infested terrans, they are too good, its never a bad idea to have too many infestors because you can create an army out of nothing that can combat almost anything, or be a great supplement to your own army. This needs to change, and the best ways would be to make it that IT no longer benefit from upgrades and increase their energy cost to 50.
The other problem with infestors, is that fungal is way too punishing and anti-climatic. I agree with punishing someone for mistakes, but not repeatedly punishing for the same mistake. At the moment if you get a clump of your units fungled just once you lose them all, you get punished over and over again as the zerg just keeps chaining until your units are dead. I don't agree with making fungal a slow, I believe all forms of movement impairment are bad, concussive shells, fungals, force fields etc. But since I have no idea what spell would be better to give infestors as a replacement to fungal, I'd go with a slow effect, however, it should be only a slow, no damage, and it needs to be 50% slow, if it is to strong like 75% then its still too effective, if its lower then 50% its probably too weak.
And yes, I do know that the changes I'm advocating for will basically necessitate a redesign of zerg. But I'm fine with that, because I hate the design of zerg atm. While the other races have strong units that are made stronger and their army is complemented by caster units, zerg is the other way around, it has a very strong caster that needs to be supported by the weaker units. The infestors is so strong that it also phases out other units and/or compositions to some extent, this is again a problem. If you want other unit compositions like Muta, Ling, Bling or units like the Swarm Host, Viper and Hydras to see more use, then infestors need to be nerfed by such a magnitude that it warrants a buff of the other under used units and diversifies the MU.
For the better of SC2, I believe the infestor needs to be nerfed until it is brought in line with the other casters, nerfed to such an extent that it becomes undesirable to get more then, 12-15 at most, so that other compostions/units can get some much needed love.
i dont' think infested terrans should cost supply, as that kinda defeats the point of them, and would provide a few disadvantages to actually maxing out as zerg. However i think the eggs should have the same hp as the ITs, because it's kinda dumb that any damage you do to infested terran eggs is completely worthless when they hatch
On November 11 2012 03:40 peidongyang wrote: they should make infestors more skilled and thus infestors no longer disable dropping from medivacs/warp prisms allowing templar drops/ghost drops to be more viable
I don't see how fungal shouldn't affect it's own units... storm does so why shouldn't Fungal? That way you can't spam fungal on your own units just like you can't spam storms on your own zealot lines.
On November 11 2012 06:00 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I don't see how fungal shouldn't affect it's own units... storm does so why shouldn't Fungal? That way you can't spam fungal on your own units just like you can't spam storms on your own zealot lines.
The problem is that most zerg units are meelee. so you kill of your own army before you kill of theirs. What does Protoss have meelee? Zealot and that is that and they have more hp then most zerg units.
On November 11 2012 06:00 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I don't see how fungal shouldn't affect it's own units... storm does so why shouldn't Fungal? That way you can't spam fungal on your own units just like you can't spam storms on your own zealot lines.
The problem is that most zerg units are meelee. so you kill of your own army before you kill of theirs. What does Protoss have meelee? Zealot and that is that and they have more hp then most zerg units.
Actually, apart from Zerglings, Banelings and Ultralisk (which can't be slowed, snared, stunned atm), all zerg units are ranged, Roaches, Hydras, Corrupters, ITs, BLs etc. More accurate would have been to say, most zerg units are short ranged, and again, I believe its a design flaw that zerg is so reliant on their short range units, and their longer range unit, Hydra, really sucks in most situation. Hydras should be strengthened so as to be a bigger part of zerg's mid game.
Anyway, fungal hitting your own units sounds like a change that would put them in line with other casters, and might differentiate the casters and their roles a bit. Infestors would go great with ranged units like roaches and hydras, because fungal won't hit those units, while viper would be better with lings and ultralisks. It would breed different compositions and doctrines, it would be a good thing to have more diversity, rather then have infestors in all compositions and against all compositions.
-> Decrease size then they'll be more vulnerable to EMP/storm (or at least people will need skill to split them) -> Decrease fungal damages against light units and increase against armored or at least decrease the "snare" time -> Increase control range by one -> Same life for eggs and marines
-> UP raven's energy pool to allow two cast of HSM
Nerf fungal to be like BW Queen Ensnare and slow Infestors down a bit. To help with late game and mid game comps more increase Hydralisk to 100 hp. But have Hydralisk range upgrade to be Hive tech. This will help with any Hydralisk pushes versus Protoss before they can get Colossus out.
Buff Void ray speed a bit so they don't get own by 5 range Hydras or decrease build time, to make Voidrays still viable.
On November 11 2012 15:45 734pot wrote: I wouldn't mind seeing the infestor being nerfed in exchange for the hydra being buffed.
I agree, I think that's the best way to balance Zerg and make SC2 much more fun to watch and play. Hydras could become that core unit of all matchups like they were in broodwar pretty much, and give Zerg the boost in early/mid-game while making late game far more even in PvZ and TvZ.
The only problem is that Colossus would have to be seriously tweaked because they counter Hydras much harder than any other AOE, especially in comparison to Brood War. If it were up to me Colossus would be removed already, that unit creates way too many problems like Infestor.
The design of Colossus seems simple but they are pretty weak without force fields and gateway units. Storm is too weak versus Roaches, so the Colossus is needed. Totally changing it will change all match ups which may be to hard. Colossus force Terran to go Vikings. Colossus wars hopefully will be solved with Tempest in PvP. The Viper will cause problems to Colossus imo.
Hadn't they tested projectile fungal before, and it sucked? And not Neuralling massive units makes the spell close to useless I think. Immortals and tanks will be neuralled then, I guess. The rest could all be decent options.
On November 11 2012 20:32 imPermanenCe wrote: Hadn't they tested projectile fungal before, and it sucked? And not Neuralling massive units makes the spell close to useless I think. Immortals and tanks will be neuralled then, I guess. The rest could all be decent options.
it'd be nice if tanks were able to crush forcefields
even if they implement small but steady changes it would be good... nothing gamebreaking, like fungel only reduces the movement speed of massive units by 50%, so that Thors and Archons arn't that bad against it
The thing with fungal becoming a projectile only solves TvZ, because PDD can block Fungal then and it's a war between PDD and Fungal, but PDD would be incredible more energyefficent, which buffs Terren incredible and dosn't solves anything in PVZ
the higher energycost for Infested Terrans is also a good option imo.
also they could change it, that it either effects ground or air units(decides of witch units are the most in the area). But thats probably too difficult to understand it isn't the "easy to learn hard to master" way.
Id like to see infestor supply changed to 3, IT's to cost 30-40 energy instead of 25, maybe a slight nerf to burrowed move speed and/or visibility, maybe small fungal range nerf (9+(1) makes it extremely powerful without requiring support or an army to land them often, i think opponents of all 3 races have to be just a little TOO careful to not get caught out by such a long range root that can be chained if you fuck up for a split second) and then regardless of what is done with the infestor, a brood lord supply change to 5 or 6.
Its a t3 unit, more expensive than the ultralisk - which is 6 supply and also cannot shoot up. I think infestors are slightly overtuned, but regardless of that, as a 2 food unit they are extremely powerful - if templar or ghosts were similarly massable i would be worried because spellcasters are extremely food efficient and not designed to be used that way.
To sum up, i think infestors are a little powerful as spellcasters regardless of cost/food, but that only adds to the already existing problem of BL+Infestor+Spine, firstly that they have obvious weaknesses - but their strengh's are too strong, and its too much - a speed nerf to the infestor for example would do nothing because reducing the mobility of an already immobile army does nothing to help you fight it - we can already bypass it and harass but its not enough.
Primarily, though, food. 2 supply infestors, 4 supply brood lords and food-free moveable spine crawlers lets zerg create a death blob of as much as 2-3x the army value of the protoss - I think if you could compete with that, it would be broken - but zerg cannot be allowed to put so much money into a mobile army. 20 brood lords with a spine forest and 30 infestors under them is unbeatable via any composition. Ground with 50 gateways to instantly replace your army can barely touch it, and air is all in - when your fleet gets fungalled and dies to dozens or 100+ IT's you cant replace it and die - It is unbeatable and you cant elimination race it, starve it out, and due to the current state of PvZ, prevent it.
In fact for a long term solution if there would never be any more balance patches i would even suggest abandoning the FFE and looking for other ways to play, but if zerg plays even close to perfectly i see no way to win in the current meta.
I dont intend this as balance whine, just analysis. I am far from a good player, but i dont think anything here could be disagreed on in a massive way.
On November 11 2012 21:51 Cyro wrote: Id like to see infestor supply changed to 3, IT's to cost 30-40 energy instead of 25, maybe a slight nerf to burrowed move speed and/or visibility, maybe small fungal range nerf (9+(1) makes it extremely powerful without requiring support or an army to land them often, i think opponents of all 3 races have to be just a little TOO careful to not get caught out by such a long range root that can be chained if you fuck up for a split second) and then regardless of what is done with the infestor, a brood lord supply change to 5 or 6.
Everything from here based on current maps and their balance:
Its a t3 unit, more expensive than the ultralisk - which is 6 supply and also cannot shoot up. I think infestors are slightly overtuned, but regardless of that, as a 2 food unit they are extremely powerful - if templar or ghosts were similarly massable i would be worried because spellcasters are extremely food efficient and not designed to be used that way.
To sum up, i think infestors are a little powerful as spellcasters regardless of cost/food, but that only adds to the already existing problem of BL+Infestor+Spine, firstly that they have obvious weaknesses - but their strengh's are too strong, and its too much - a speed nerf to the infestor for example would do nothing because reducing the mobility of an already immobile army does nothing to help you fight it - we can already bypass it and harass but its not enough.
Primarily, though, food. 2 supply infestors, 4 supply brood lords and food-free moveable spine crawlers lets zerg create a death blob of as much as 2-3x the army value of the protoss - I think if you could compete with that, it would be broken - but zerg cannot be allowed to put so much money into a mobile army. 20 brood lords with a spine forest and 30 infestors under them is unbeatable via any composition. Ground with 50 gateways to instantly replace your army can barely touch it, and air is all in - when your fleet gets fungalled and dies to dozens or 100+ IT's you cant replace it and die - It is unbeatable and you cant elimination race it, starve it out, and due to the current state of PvZ, prevent it.
In fact for a long term solution if there would never be any more balance patches i would even suggest abandoning the FFE and looking for other ways to play, but if zerg plays even close to perfectly i see no way to win in the current meta.
I dont intend this as balance whine, just analysis. I am far from a good player, but i dont think anything here could be disagreed on in a massive way.
I bolded the part that made me basically give up on late game PvZ. 2 base immortal all in every games working fine for me anyway.
I think snare instead of immobilize would be a good start for changes..or increased supply to 3.
On November 11 2012 20:32 imPermanenCe wrote: Hadn't they tested projectile fungal before, and it sucked? And not Neuralling massive units makes the spell close to useless I think. Immortals and tanks will be neuralled then, I guess. The rest could all be decent options.
it'd be nice if tanks were able to crush forcefields
Terran can get tanks really early though, they are essentially tier 1.5(1.7?)
You can have 2 tanks with siege mode at like 6:30-7:00 with a couple rax of marines and if you could disable forcefields it would mean too much. That kind of play is already a pretty hard counter to sentry heavy PvT expands (see GSL MVP vs HuK in ~august 2011 on dual sight, ro8 i think) and just in general being able to crush forcefields so early would be a big buff. Terrans would probably build 1-2 tanks with their 1raxFE-medivac push on the factory, or proxy one with a stim timing, etc.
On November 11 2012 20:32 imPermanenCe wrote: Hadn't they tested projectile fungal before, and it sucked? And not Neuralling massive units makes the spell close to useless I think. Immortals and tanks will be neuralled then, I guess. The rest could all be decent options.
it'd be nice if tanks were able to crush forcefields
Terran can get tanks really early though, they are essentially tier 1.5(1.7?)
You can have 2 tanks with siege mode at like 6:30-7:00 with a couple rax of marines and if you could disable forcefields it would mean too much. That kind of play is already a pretty hard counter to sentry heavy PvT expands (see GSL MVP vs HuK in ~august 2011 on dual sight, ro8 i think) and just in general being able to crush forcefields so early would be a big buff. Terrans would probably build 1-2 tanks with their 1raxFE-medivac push on the factory, or proxy one with a stim timing, etc.
Using them to crush FFs would mean you would be caught unsieged though. A Terran army with only 1 sieged tank and 1 in tank mode is beatable for Protoss I would think. Also if you get siege mode as well you need double gas to get them that quickly, your marine count will not be very high.
Just speculation though, don't intend to derail the thread by pursuing this discussion any further.
On November 11 2012 20:32 imPermanenCe wrote: Hadn't they tested projectile fungal before, and it sucked? And not Neuralling massive units makes the spell close to useless I think. Immortals and tanks will be neuralled then, I guess. The rest could all be decent options.
it'd be nice if tanks were able to crush forcefields
Terran can get tanks really early though, they are essentially tier 1.5(1.7?)
You can have 2 tanks with siege mode at like 6:30-7:00 with a couple rax of marines and if you could disable forcefields it would mean too much. That kind of play is already a pretty hard counter to sentry heavy PvT expands (see GSL MVP vs HuK in ~august 2011 on dual sight, ro8 i think) and just in general being able to crush forcefields so early would be a big buff. Terrans would probably build 1-2 tanks with their 1raxFE-medivac push on the factory, or proxy one with a stim timing, etc.
Using them to crush FFs would mean you would be caught unsieged though. A Terran army with only 1 sieged tank and 1 in tank mode is beatable for Protoss I would think. Also if you get siege mode as well you need double gas to get them that quickly, your marine count will not be very high.
If you go rax-fact-rax from 1 gas and build 1-2 tanks then siege mode and pull half a dozen scvs vs a 1gate expand he cant exactly attack move into your force and kill you when you arrive and even an unsieged tank is powerful, in fact if it is held its usually after a minute or so of fucking around with bunkers and tanks shooting at your nexus if the map's natural doesnt have a ramp. Im not 1000% sure on details though, its been a while since i played or watched either of those styles.
I just meant that tanks already remove sentries from viability in certain early game situations, and even further buffs against the sentry would be out of place IMO.
Apologies for derail infestor thread, thought it was general balance for a few minutes
I have to disagree with everything in the OP, if you would like to just delete the only spell caster zerg has then implement any one of the proposed changes and you will see (0) infestors in play. 3 food? ... projectile?? LOL, no roots? might as well never make an infestor again.
On November 11 2012 22:43 Fusa wrote: I have to disagree with everything in the OP, if you would like to just delete the only spell caster zerg has then implement any one of the proposed changes and you will see (0) infestors in play. 3 food? ... projectile?? LOL, no roots? might as well never make an infestor again.
Stahp. Seriously, you're being dramatic. Don't de-rail this thread, some of these are actual legitimate suggestions that should be considered, people aren't going to stop making infestors if any of the changes you specifically mentioned actually occured.
Infestor 3 suply should solve most isues i think. It definatly should be 3 suply btw, i thought it already was and realy suprised that its only 2 suply. Raven might be 3 suply as well, i dont think anny terran would care lol.
If they make fungal slow (not sure this is needed) they should make it so that you still take at least all damage from the fungal, so not like you can move out of the damage zone like with storm, else fungal would be way to weak i think.
Make Fungal do DMG to own units, Fungal should not hold units, Infestors should be more supply, Infested terrans should cost more mana and or do a lot less DPS (they are better than marines in DPS), Buff EMP to do whole dmg as well so all 3 races can actually do dmg with a spell that is not increadibly hard to get.
I am going to tie this back into HOTS and say that Zerg really needs an aggressive, powerful unit in its arsenal (and the SH is NOT it) the only changes I can agree with in regards to the infestor is the slow instead of root, and a slight increase in IT energy cost so they are 30 instead of 25.
But Z really needs a power unit to compromise if infestor is going to be made into a true support caster...
On November 11 2012 23:49 Psychobabas wrote: Personally I find it most likely that Blizzard would make fungal slow rather than root units.
.. Or deny any problem with the infestor until we got HotS. I'm sure people are just as excited for the widow mine and firebat as I were for the dark templar when BW came. Blizzard loves that cyclical balance.
It's funny how people throw with numbers but dont have the data which blizzard has and dont know how it would work out. Would be really scary if blizzard listens, lol.
I want to be as clear as I can on our current position of the Infestor in Wings of Liberty.
- We are not going to make any changes before BWC. - We are going to continue to watch games and gather data. - We will discuss changes. - We may try a balance map sometime after BWC. - We may try some changes in Swarm Beta, using that as a test-bed for stuff we could bring back into Wings of Liberty.
At this time I could see these as possible outcomes: - We nerf Infested Terrans, Fungal Growth or both. - We make a change to the Infestor (hit points, movement speed, etc.). - We do a change to how the unit is designed (add a projectile back to Fungal Growth, increase the visibility of burrowed units while they are moving, etc.). - We buff some of the potential counters (EMP, Feedback). - We do a combination of any of the above. - We see something that makes us decide that doing nothing is the right answer. Obviously if this occurs we would share this data or reasoning.
For those of you who believe that this is too slow a response, I am sorry.
I want to be as clear as I can on our current position of the Infestor in Wings of Liberty.
- We are not going to make any changes before BWC. - We are going to continue to watch games and gather data. - We will discuss changes. - We may try a balance map sometime after BWC. - We may try some changes in Swarm Beta, using that as a test-bed for stuff we could bring back into Wings of Liberty.
At this time I could see these as possible outcomes: - We nerf Infested Terrans, Fungal Growth or both. - We make a change to the Infestor (hit points, movement speed, etc.). - We do a change to how the unit is designed (add a projectile back to Fungal Growth, increase the visibility of burrowed units while they are moving, etc.). - We buff some of the potential counters (EMP, Feedback). - We do a combination of any of the above. - We see something that makes us decide that doing nothing is the right answer. Obviously if this occurs we would share this data or reasoning.
For those of you who believe that this is too slow a response, I am sorry.
Good. I think it is fine that they won't tweak until after BWC, wouldn't be fair to the players. But at least it will be looked at before HoTS. Dec and Jan are actually good time for changes if they are needed since that is the low season for tournaments.
I want to be as clear as I can on our current position of the Infestor in Wings of Liberty.
- We are not going to make any changes before BWC. - We are going to continue to watch games and gather data. - We will discuss changes. - We may try a balance map sometime after BWC. - We may try some changes in Swarm Beta, using that as a test-bed for stuff we could bring back into Wings of Liberty.
At this time I could see these as possible outcomes: - We nerf Infested Terrans, Fungal Growth or both. - We make a change to the Infestor (hit points, movement speed, etc.). - We do a change to how the unit is designed (add a projectile back to Fungal Growth, increase the visibility of burrowed units while they are moving, etc.). - We buff some of the potential counters (EMP, Feedback). - We do a combination of any of the above. - We see something that makes us decide that doing nothing is the right answer. Obviously if this occurs we would share this data or reasoning.
For those of you who believe that this is too slow a response, I am sorry.
This might sound dumb, but the late game for zerg currently has to be zerg favored, because currently, 2 base immortal pushes from Protoss are to a degree, overpowered. Some Korean Protosses even brag that the only time they lose with 2 base pushes, is when they make a mistake, and it doesn't matter how good the Zerg plays. I honestly think the reason Zerg stay in competition with Protoss, is because some Protoss will try to compete with Zerg in the late game, and we all know how that goes down.
I think ZvP is kind of broken at the moment, but I don't think Zerg is the only issue.
BL should be 5 supply while Infestor should be 3 supply and have a 50-75% Fungal snare, that would be the least damaging nerf to the overall meta by mostly affecting the end game. It would fix ZvP, ZvT, and even ZvZ. If Zerg then seems too weak to certain compositions, they can look at the Hydra/Ultra/Baneling and see what they can do. But as far as I can tell, Muta/Bling/Ling and Roach/Ling have been handling things just fine, it's just Infestors handle things even easier.
Halve the duration of ITs should be a change. I feel like once they are thrown and the battle is decided (in the Zerg's favor), they shouldn't be allowed to remain for another 15 seconds to shamble around and restrict movement or pick off a base. If all the Z player has is infestors after the battle is over, they should have to expend another round of ITs to do any further damage.
In this same vein, shorter duration IT's should allow the other player to back off from an engagement if necessary and wait a shorter amount of time before being able to engage again. This would punish the infestor and prevent it from being the primary core unit if it can't consistently rely on having energy for ITs.
On November 12 2012 02:24 Cloak wrote: BL should be 5 supply while Infestor should be 3 supply and have a 50-75% Fungal snare, that would be the least damaging nerf to the overall meta by mostly affecting the end game. It would fix ZvP, ZvT, and even ZvZ. If Zerg then seems too weak to certain compositions, they can look at the Hydra/Ultra/Baneling and see what they can do. But as far as I can tell, Muta/Bling/Ling and Roach/Ling have been handling things just fine, it's just Infestors handle things even easier.
Personally, I'd rather they nerf the units than increase their supply. units should be supply-lite but weaker.
On November 12 2012 02:24 Cloak wrote: BL should be 5 supply while Infestor should be 3 supply and have a 50-75% Fungal snare, that would be the least damaging nerf to the overall meta by mostly affecting the end game. It would fix ZvP, ZvT, and even ZvZ. If Zerg then seems too weak to certain compositions, they can look at the Hydra/Ultra/Baneling and see what they can do. But as far as I can tell, Muta/Bling/Ling and Roach/Ling have been handling things just fine, it's just Infestors handle things even easier.
Personally, I'd rather they nerf the units than increase their supply. units should be supply-lite but weaker.
True, I was considering balance elegance over unit identity. Terran seems to have the cheapest, most expendable units these days. If they can hit the lategame without affecting the early/mid, they could remove Protoss Vortex. But, as of right now, it's Vortex or GG, lategame supply efficiency is too strong.
Edit: If I were to keep the supply: 50-75% snare Fungal. 30 energy IT, Spawn rate/damage nerf to BL. 4 supply flying Colossus too good.
Good, but this doesnt fix lategame. Infestors are overtuned - that is one issue - but it only compounds the other, primary one - Zerg can put so much money into a death blob because of supply efficiency and mobile spine/spore crawlers that no other race and particularly protoss can compete in any way.
I think whatever happens, the brood lord needs a supply change from 4 to 5-6, and mobile spinecrawler forest would need looking at in some way.
We need either a big nerf to infested terrans (stats on eggs, IT's themselves, energy cost to 30-40) OR fungal needs to not root at the very least air units, so he cant know >FOR A FACT that he has permanantly trapped your air fleet and drop 50-100+ IT's as you cannot escape under any circumstance.
Interceptors should not be 1-2 shot by fungal regardless of what happens and carrier build time at 120 seconds is too high and i think it should be lowered to ~100 seconds or even a touch lower.
All of these are reasonable and thought out changes.
I don´t think that increasing the supply costs of the infestor would be a purposeful change. The only thing that prevents the Zergs from building mass infestor are the 150 gas cost per unit. Zerg players would build more overlords, just like Stephano does before his roach all-in.
On November 09 2012 03:01 Iodem wrote: Gonna repost what I suggested in another thread.
I think infestors should have their model size reduced. The way zergs are able to just ball them up without fear of EMP/splash is kinda sad compared to the way ghosts and HTs are. It encourages spreading, and somewhat buffs EMP for terran by letting it hit a higher number of infestors per cast. One EMP can ruin a protoss army if he doesn't split his HTs. Clumped up Ghosts can get destroyed by colossus. It should be the same for zerg with infestors.
In the past Blizzard made fungal not hit air and people complained. Would that be a viable change now? People complain that they can't harass zerg anymore, fungal not hitting air would allow air units to do their job against broodlords and prevent the infestor from hard countering almost every unit in the game.
Here is another idea as mentioned above. Its based on that going for a tech tree should make u weaker to another tech tree. Since zerg got spire, hydra den i don't see why infestors also should counter air even more effective then what the hydra tech or spire tech does. I love to see the old meta where protoss could force zerg make hydras with star gate tech . This also opens up that void rays,carriers,raven and vikings can be used more effectively against brodlord tech. Right now infested terrans are like mini hydras, isn't that enough anti air for the infestor tech .
Infested Terrans really, really need a nerf. They are a huge part of the problem when paired with Fungal, they should either not be given upgrades (so they stay at 0/0) or their eggs should be able to be killed fast.
If Fungal were to be nerfed, i would be fine with it still rooting ground units, but it should just slow down Air units. This would still be beatable, and might actually inspire a bit more hydra play or at least more spire units than infestors as anit-air. It would allow Air to actually be viable vs Zerg again, as right now Phoenix, Interceptors, Vikings, Mutas and yes, even Banshees fall ridiculously to Fungal. You get grabbed once and you die, this is overpowered, air units should not have such a stupid weakness.
Most of all, I think Pathogen Glands should be nerfed, by adding 20-30sec more time to it's research. This would at least make up for the weakness Protoss has since Khydarin Amulet was removed, and it would add strategy as to whether to get the Pathogen glands right away, or get a few Infestors out faster. Right now it's "always start path glands asap" for Zergs, whereas adding more time to it's research would require a decision as to put it off for a few fast infestors.
1.Make uprooted spines/spores not count for the building counter. This means that a protoss could kite the zerg around the map with mother ship recall and hide the pylon. Also base trades are fun to watch but it could lead to draws where the zerg and protoss just sit on their last building until the draw counter ticks down. 2. make the mothership immune to neural this would allow the toss to send the mothershiparound for possible recall point without the risk of being taken out. 3. Make fungal not snare interceptors. Watching 10 infestors chain fungal 60 interceptors is one of the worst things in the game. The spell can keep its damage vs interceptors but they should be able to retreat.
On November 12 2012 07:31 Anomi wrote: Here is another idea as mentioned above. Its based on that going for a tech tree should make u weaker to another tech tree. Since zerg got spire, hydra den i don't see why infestors also should counter air even more effective then what the hydra tech or spire tech does. I love to see the old meta where protoss could force zerg make hydras with star gate tech . This also opens up that void rays,carriers,raven and vikings can be used more effectively against brodlord tech. Right now infested terrans are like mini hydras, isn't that enough anti air for the infestor tech .
Yes, if there's one thing Zerg has too much of, it's anti-air. Their compositions will totally not be absolute shit once they integrate hydras into them. Hint: They tried this before, and it didn't work for a reason.
No poll about nerfing the energy? Make it so 1/2 fungals at max (100 or 125 each, 200 cap) and 4-6 Terrans at max (30 or 50 energy each, 200 cap), bring it in line with seeker missile, altho its still 10x more useful than seeker is.
Reduce the range infested terrans can be thrown. Right now ITs have a range of 14 (9+5). Right now, infestors lunch a boatload of ITs and still be entirely safe.
On November 12 2012 07:31 Anomi wrote: Here is another idea as mentioned above. Its based on that going for a tech tree should make u weaker to another tech tree. Since zerg got spire, hydra den i don't see why infestors also should counter air even more effective then what the hydra tech or spire tech does. I love to see the old meta where protoss could force zerg make hydras with star gate tech . This also opens up that void rays,carriers,raven and vikings can be used more effectively against brodlord tech. Right now infested terrans are like mini hydras, isn't that enough anti air for the infestor tech .
Yes, if there's one thing Zerg has too much of, it's anti-air. Their compositions will totally not be absolute shit once they integrate hydras into them. Hint: They tried this before, and it didn't work for a reason.
Not sure it didn't work, there was an organised outcry.. But this was back when zerg was regularly dying to unscouted air allins and the horribleness of tiny maps. Those aren't problems any more, souped up turbo-slowverlords, overseers and speedlings mean zerg has the most cost effective scouting options of all 3 races now. There have been a stack of void ray nerfs plus queens are more common now they can fight ground threats effectively. People have also realised IT's are actually strong so infestors are still pretty decent anti-air, they just dont guarentee free kills if within range when using IT's. Also the end game BLords means corruptors are never really a waste.
I think its worth at least considering. Anything to get rid of this "one spell to kill them all" fungal.
I have thought a lot about how the infestor works and have a different approach. How about we give the infestor a snare without the damage and give the damagin aoe to the corrupter(has the name for a reason doesnt it)?
This would fix a lot of the issues concerning the current strategies. First of all it would make the "fungal effect" harder to pull off due to misclicks and positioning. Same as in broodwar basically... Secondly it would slow down the mass brood style because you'd lack serious damage without the new aoe of the corrupter. It's a tradeoff... do you want broods? well you have to cut down on aoe dmg then. Also it would make the corrupter an asset in your army instead of an a move unit.
I know that this would also raise some questions concerning curropters vs vikings and mutaharass with 1-3 corrupters in the mix but then again...muta timings are slimming as it is and good turret placement and marines/thors could deal with it.
In the lategame air Zerg could even be viable with mass muta then, depending on thorcount and marinesplits, even ravens this could get a lot more exciting then "broodwars" (pun intended).
The biggest thing is that it rewards better control and therefore the better player. If this is still to hard of a combo Blizzard could also make the corrupters current ability an aoe so instead of working like bloodbath your infestor corrupter combo would only enable lings and ultras to kill the marines...not instakill them.
Also infestors couldnt be used as your only tech option, not making them unuseful though. Snare then inf terrans would still be viable to kill drops or smaller forces.
As David Kim stated in his last interview, the current Infestor is just poor design and my change would make the game more interesting and give room for some new timings and strategies.
On November 12 2012 14:13 Shinespark wrote: Speaking of changing the infestor, please change fungal's name to plague, so korean comentators can again go "PLAGUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU"
On November 12 2012 07:31 Anomi wrote: Here is another idea as mentioned above. Its based on that going for a tech tree should make u weaker to another tech tree. Since zerg got spire, hydra den i don't see why infestors also should counter air even more effective then what the hydra tech or spire tech does. I love to see the old meta where protoss could force zerg make hydras with star gate tech . This also opens up that void rays,carriers,raven and vikings can be used more effectively against brodlord tech. Right now infested terrans are like mini hydras, isn't that enough anti air for the infestor tech .
Yes, if there's one thing Zerg has too much of, it's anti-air. Their compositions will totally not be absolute shit once they integrate hydras into them. Hint: They tried this before, and it didn't work for a reason.
Not sure it didn't work, there was an organised outcry.. But this was back when zerg was regularly dying to unscouted air allins and the horribleness of tiny maps. Those aren't problems any more, souped up turbo-slowverlords, overseers and speedlings mean zerg has the most cost effective scouting options of all 3 races now. There have been a stack of void ray nerfs plus queens are more common now they can fight ground threats effectively. People have also realised IT's are actually strong so infestors are still pretty decent anti-air, they just dont guarentee free kills if within range when using IT's. Also the end game BLords means corruptors are never really a waste.
I think its worth at least considering. Anything to get rid of this "one spell to kill them all" fungal.
It's a ZvZ thing, if you get rid of it being able to hit air, Zerg are going to be forced to react to mutalisks with their own mutalisks.
On November 11 2012 06:00 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I don't see how fungal shouldn't affect it's own units... storm does so why shouldn't Fungal? That way you can't spam fungal on your own units just like you can't spam storms on your own zealot lines.
You can also emp your own units like thors and medics, etc.
On November 11 2012 06:00 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I don't see how fungal shouldn't affect it's own units... storm does so why shouldn't Fungal? That way you can't spam fungal on your own units just like you can't spam storms on your own zealot lines.
You can also emp your own units like thors and medics, etc.
And most importantly, you can emp your own ghosts, which I have done to my cloaked ghosts a few too many times now
On November 11 2012 23:57 Rassy wrote: Infestor 3 suply should solve most isues i think. It definatly should be 3 suply btw, i thought it already was and realy suprised that its only 2 suply. Raven might be 3 suply as well, i dont think anny terran would care lol.
If they make fungal slow (not sure this is needed) they should make it so that you still take at least all damage from the fungal, so not like you can move out of the damage zone like with storm, else fungal would be way to weak i think.
We all remember 1 supply roaches from that beta right? And they still can mass those damn things lol. Zergs like to mass 6 things drones, mutas, roachs, infestors, lings and Broodlords.
Or as I like to call them Brones, Broachs, Brofestors,Brolords, Brolings, and Brotas.
On November 11 2012 06:00 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I don't see how fungal shouldn't affect it's own units... storm does so why shouldn't Fungal? That way you can't spam fungal on your own units just like you can't spam storms on your own zealot lines.
You can also emp your own units like thors and medics, etc.
And most importantly, you can emp your own ghosts, which I have done to my cloaked ghosts a few too many times now
Save you from getting feedbacked I guess :/ I play toss btw lol
I don't see how making infestors 3 supply does much ultimately. So you have to build a few more overlords, and later zergs will begin the build 20 evo chambers and cancel trick and boom, they got that nifty old infestor count back.
I'm gonna reiterate my idea, which is just a little twist on the basic long standing idea of changing fungal to a slow and increasing the damage, which I believe even IdrA has suggested.
I'd also make the slow severe at first but wear off over the duration. This way, if you really want to lock down units, you have to spend a lot more energy, plus they can still sorta move. The pro for the affected units is that they can at least do something to mitigate the damage and bait out a response, so there is some fight for cost-effectiveness rather than chain fungal = done deal.. That reminds me of protoss players who don't bother to use extra forcefield unless the opponent keeps trying to get away
Obviously, this is an overall nerf, so I'd increase the damage a little. It doesn't change the ability to lock down units too much, but you have to invest a lot more energy. This might make zerg too weak overall, especially at first, but with HotS around the corner, I'd just go with it and let the zergs from the end of year until HotS, unless that's particularly far away.
what about changing how creep spread works? killing a creep tumor should make the area that creep tumor had spread "dead" until it recedes. creep tumors cannot be placed in a dead zone and creep cannot spread on that area until the dead creep is gone.
-Change fungal so it does all its damage +15 up front but doesnt immobilize -Make fungal a projectile however a projectile that latches on and chases a single unit -Raise the energy cost of infested terrans to 75 and make them unable to move but give them +2 armor, 7 range and 8x the duration -Change the infestor from heavy to light and buff its health -keep the supply at 2 but raise the gas cost by 50 -Remove NP and replace it with an ability to defend itself and other units from the majority of projectile attacks -give the infestor flying
Ah as i remember, It was in the bleak December and each somber dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.. Fuck!! A ghost! Oh wait terrans dont make those either. NVM <3
On November 12 2012 16:34 Ralethon wrote: -Change fungal so it does all its damage +15 up front but doesnt immobilize -Make fungal a projectile however a projectile that latches on and chases a single unit -Raise the energy cost of infested terrans to 75 and make them unable to move but give them +2 armor, 7 range and 8x the duration -Change the infestor from heavy to light and buff its health -keep the supply at 2 but raise the gas cost by 50 -Remove NP and replace it with an ability to defend itself and other units from the majority of projectile attacks -give the infestor flying
Ah as i remember, It was in the bleak December and each somber dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.. Fuck!! A ghost! Oh wait terrans dont make those either. NVM <3
Ps. NeVerMore.
Sorry but I like you're changes the least out of the few that I've read.
Fungal doing more damage up front and no slow/ root makes it a storm for zerg.... which is just not what zerg does. Fungal being a projectile is cool and a lot of people have been suggesting this but why does it have to chase a unit. Ensnare and plague didn't and they were really sick. Increasing range / duration/ armor of IT would make them so good for denying expansions. This is just dumb. Sorry. Nerf them and don't give them any buff. Why keep supply at 2. we dont' want them to be massed and 200 gas infestors will still be massed, just at the cost of other units such as mutalisks, hydralisks, ultralisks... anything else. Because infestor is just that good.
Actually... at this point you're either a hidden troll or just lack a solid understanding of the game so I won't even bother writing more.
On November 12 2012 16:23 Ansinjunger wrote: I don't see how making infestors 3 supply does much ultimately. So you have to build a few more overlords, and later zergs will begin the build 20 evo chambers and cancel trick and boom, they got that nifty old infestor count back.
I'm gonna reiterate my idea, which is just a little twist on the basic long standing idea of changing fungal to a slow and increasing the damage, which I believe even IdrA has suggested.
I'd also make the slow severe at first but wear off over the duration. This way, if you really want to lock down units, you have to spend a lot more energy, plus they can still sorta move. The pro for the affected units is that they can at least do something to mitigate the damage and bait out a response, so there is some fight for cost-effectiveness rather than chain fungal = done deal.. That reminds me of protoss players who don't bother to use extra forcefield unless the opponent keeps trying to get away
Obviously, this is an overall nerf, so I'd increase the damage a little. It doesn't change the ability to lock down units too much, but you have to invest a lot more energy. This might make zerg too weak overall, especially at first, but with HotS around the corner, I'd just go with it and let the zergs from the end of year until HotS, unless that's particularly far away.
Interesting idea, but I think it would have to be a little bit less than "severe" at first given that FG is 'only' a 4sec stun to begin with.
I really don't understand why you would balance a small to modest stun nerf with a damage buff though. FGs damage is already really high. Does as much damage as a pretty well executed storm.
In warcraft 3, there was a unit called the Necromancer. That unit was a tier 2 caster for 2 supply, and it had the ability to move faster in situations due to Unholy Aura (as opposed to creep). It produced summoned units (Skeletons) at a comparable mana cost to the energy cost of Infested Terrans, but it had a few serious restrictions:
1. Every race had access to strong AoE dispel abilities, so they could kill a big group of skeletons for a low cost and a minor (if any) deviation from their typical composition. You pay 75 mana per pair of skeletons; they pay 75 mana for one Dispel and AoE 8 skeletons. That was an effective counter. There were also a bunch of really strong anti-caster units, since they figured out that the game was really warped around casters and they had to do something about that with their expansion. In fact, the Night Elf worker could actually suicide itself to cast an AoE dispel that also drained mana from units within the AoE. Could you imagine the game changing if you could pop a Drone to dispel a storm-sized AoE, removing Infested Terrans, Broodlings, Fungal Growth, and 50 Energy from Infestors underneath it? I'm not saying that Detonate should be given to any of the workers in Starcraft 2, but it would nice to see some Dispel if Zerg is allowed to have 3 different types of "infinite summon" units that only draw supply from the spellcaster (Infestor, Swarm Host, or Brood Lord).
2. You needed Corpses to produce Skeletons. They didn't come out of thin air. If you wanted to use a Skeleton-heavy army in the mid-late game, you had to bring a siege unit called the Meat Wagon with your army. Since the Meat Wagon and the Necromancer were both very brittle, a strong flank could just wreck a NecroWagon army (if someone actually risked building it; it was ultra-rare to see that army in tournament play). Basically, if you were making skeletons, you were either making them halfway through a fight (potentially after your opponent had the time to just kill your brittle Necromancers), or you were committing to a very difficult NecroWagon tech path. That's what it took to use that unit as a summon generator in major armies.
3. You could only have a maximum of 24 skeletons on the map. Period. You couldn't keep making them and have an army of 30 Necromancers and 100+ skeletons; after about 6-8 Necromancers you just didn't need any more. With 6, you could cast Raise Dead twice and have a full set of 24 Skeletons. This is probably the biggest lesson we can take from this older game, to apply to the Infestor. Want to deal with the supply limit issue without giving summoned units actual supply costs? Just have a maximum count of Infested Terrans.
4. Raise Dead produced melee units until you got to tier 3 and researched Skeletal Mastery, at which point each cast would instead produce 1 melee unit and 1 ranged unit. And the melee unit did garbage DPS by the standards of that game. So you could have 12 tanky melee units and 12 decent ranged units (24 in total) maximum from Necromancers.
Maybe this can offer up some perspective about how the Infested Terran spell compares to a major predecessor from a relatively recent Blizzard RTS game. Food for thought, if nothing else.
On November 12 2012 17:56 ineversmile wrote: 2. You needed Corpses to produce Skeletons. They didn't come out of thin air. If you wanted to use a Skeleton-heavy army in the mid-late game, you had to bring a siege unit called the Meat Wagon with your army. Since the Meat Wagon and the Necromancer were both very brittle, a strong flank could just wreck a NecroWagon army (if someone actually risked building it; it was ultra-rare to see that army in tournament play). Basically, if you were making skeletons, you were either making them halfway through a fight (potentially after your opponent had the time to just kill your brittle Necromancers), or you were committing to a very difficult NecroWagon tech path. That's what it took to use that unit as a summon generator in major armies.
That´s a nice insight from WC3. How about you have to tribute a zerglin for an infested terran? Or the infestor has to harvest larva and keep them to produce limited amount of IT (one per larva).
Personally I'd be glad to see the following changes: 1) definetely: make fungal affect both enemy and own units 2) probably: make fungal slow targets down gradually, so you can't stop and chain phoenixes for example 3) maybe: make infestor 3 supply
On November 12 2012 17:56 ineversmile wrote: 2. You needed Corpses to produce Skeletons. They didn't come out of thin air. If you wanted to use a Skeleton-heavy army in the mid-late game, you had to bring a siege unit called the Meat Wagon with your army. Since the Meat Wagon and the Necromancer were both very brittle, a strong flank could just wreck a NecroWagon army (if someone actually risked building it; it was ultra-rare to see that army in tournament play). Basically, if you were making skeletons, you were either making them halfway through a fight (potentially after your opponent had the time to just kill your brittle Necromancers), or you were committing to a very difficult NecroWagon tech path. That's what it took to use that unit as a summon generator in major armies.
That´s a nice insight from WC3. How about you have to tribute a zerglin for an infested terran? Or the infestor has to harvest larva and keep them to produce limited amount of IT (one per larva).
That's ridiculous, you'd need an extra hatch or 2 + queens to make IT useful.
On November 12 2012 17:56 ineversmile wrote: 2. You needed Corpses to produce Skeletons. They didn't come out of thin air. If you wanted to use a Skeleton-heavy army in the mid-late game, you had to bring a siege unit called the Meat Wagon with your army. Since the Meat Wagon and the Necromancer were both very brittle, a strong flank could just wreck a NecroWagon army (if someone actually risked building it; it was ultra-rare to see that army in tournament play). Basically, if you were making skeletons, you were either making them halfway through a fight (potentially after your opponent had the time to just kill your brittle Necromancers), or you were committing to a very difficult NecroWagon tech path. That's what it took to use that unit as a summon generator in major armies.
That´s a nice insight from WC3. How about you have to tribute a zerglin for an infested terran? Or the infestor has to harvest larva and keep them to produce limited amount of IT (one per larva).
That's ridiculous, you'd need an extra hatch or 2 + queens to make IT useful.
I don´t see that as a problem since zergs don´t have such a big larva problem in the late game. And you can´t turtle with infestors anymore, if you lost a base.
Also, at the OP one thing some of us would really like to see is that Fungal doesn't delete commands. It's ridiculous that you have to keep spamming move commands at affected units like stalkers or medivacs to try and retreat them, only to have them reset after every chained fungal.
-->Make fungal growth a strong slow instead of root. Or additionally make it to have a projectile as well. But it must DEFINATELY silence spell casting (or even blink only) or else blink stalker balls will become unkillable. Remember the days of when P with 100 supply could kill Z with 160...
-->Make IT spam less useful for agressive play: IT have 0,5 supply means no more over 200 supply pushes or instantly increasing your "effective" supply in response to an enemy attack that nullifies all agression. Also the range of IT throwing could be reduced a little, so that: a) it's harder to have the infestors spam them simultaneously b) make infestors more vulnerable so that zerg loses some in the process and has to remake them instead of massing them to 20+ numbers (for example to colossi or tank shots)
-->Infestors being 3 supply or being smaller so they die more easily to aoe and are able to be emp'd or stormed also seems reasonable but a combination of the 2 points above seems like the best option to me.
I'd also love to see a balance change that helps with chain fungal = 100% chance of death. I'm not certain if the slow instead of no movement would do that though.
I wonder about a cool down on casting infested terran...?
The best part is, if they nerfed the infestor, maybe it will make the StarCraft Master custom game extra difficult to beat for people trying it post patch.
On November 12 2012 16:23 Ansinjunger wrote: I don't see how making infestors 3 supply does much ultimately. So you have to build a few more overlords, and later zergs will begin the build 20 evo chambers and cancel trick and boom, they got that nifty old infestor count back.
Well, honestly, they should fix that. Kill the Drone if it unmorphs at 200 supply. Also your argument doesn't make sense, because Zergs are perfectly capable of doing it now too, so their exploit would be 50% more effective with 2 supply Infestors.
On November 12 2012 16:23 Ansinjunger wrote: I don't see how making infestors 3 supply does much ultimately. So you have to build a few more overlords, and later zergs will begin the build 20 evo chambers and cancel trick and boom, they got that nifty old infestor count back.
Well, honestly, they should fix that. Kill the Drone if it unmorphs at 200 supply. Also your argument doesn't make sense, because Zergs are perfectly capable of doing it now too, so their exploit would be 50% more effective with 2 supply Infestors.
Fixing a mechanic that has been the race for more then 10years? What? Sure, but then terran buildings can't fly and protoss buildings don't have energy anymore.
What if fungal was altered slightly so that on initial cast the units are slowed x amount gradually increasing the slow amount until the units are rooted for a brief period.
If someone is a moving their units then this change would have little impact, but with micro the damage from fungal can be mitigated.
It also would fit well with the name of the spell, as the fungal grows the unit slows.
On November 12 2012 16:23 Ansinjunger wrote: I don't see how making infestors 3 supply does much ultimately. So you have to build a few more overlords, and later zergs will begin the build 20 evo chambers and cancel trick and boom, they got that nifty old infestor count back.
Well, honestly, they should fix that. Kill the Drone if it unmorphs at 200 supply. Also your argument doesn't make sense, because Zergs are perfectly capable of doing it now too, so their exploit would be 50% more effective with 2 supply Infestors.
Fixing a mechanic that has been the race for more then 10years? What? Sure, but then terran buildings can't fly and protoss buildings don't have energy anymore.
It's not a race-defining element, just an abuse of mechanics that contributes very little to the diversity of gameplay. If you guys want to keep it, your 220 supply deathball would need to be just as strong as P and T 200 supply. Do you want that?
On November 08 2012 18:38 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Infested terrans 0.5 supply, make fungal a slow and projectile, no neural parasiting massive units.
I like these ideas, especially the infested terrans 0,5 supply. Though I would actually go so far as to cut their upgrades in half as well. Zerg basically has a free 3/3 marine army with ridiculous DPS in addition to the strongest army composition in the game. That way zerg will be punished harder by a huge air army if they don't tech switch fast enough (and seriously, zerg does NOT have a hard time tech switching.) Fungal slowing units is only fair. It just seems wrong to me that you can't even kill infestors if you catch them WAY out of position because they just stun your army and run away. Burrowed movement for them is enough.
3 supply, Fungal changed to a slow, and IT having increased energy cost (40-50) or becoming 0.5 supply. Some combination of these would be decent.
This way, in 200 vs 200 engagements, it doesn't become 300 vs 200 with IT being so absurdly cheap and extremely powerful/effective as they currently are, and fungal will no longer cost effectively counter every unit composition in the game with the abusive stun case being no more.
On November 13 2012 02:13 DemigodcelpH wrote: 3 supply, Fungal changed to a slow, and IT having increased energy cost (40-50) or becoming 0.5 supply. Some combination of these would be decent.
This way, in 200 vs 200 engagements, it doesn't become 300 vs 200 with IT being so absurdly cheap and extremely powerful/effective as they currently are, and fungal will no longer cost effectively counter every unit composition in the game with the abusive stun case being no more.
Having IT cost supply is not a good fix. IT is a cool spell, when it isn't used in mass. Throwing 4 IT behind a mineral line for light harass is cool (and should be in the game). Throwing 50 IT next to a nexus because there is no way protoss can kill off that many IT before the nexus fall is not entertaining. What should be focused on is making it so that building infestors is not always a good idea. If you take away the mass-ability of infestors, then you fix the mass IT problem.
Of course, I think IT contributes to wanting to mass infestors, but I think an energy increase to IT, or a buff to feedback/emp on infestors, nerf to fungal, or a decrease in infestor max energy would accomplish that without having to do something awkward like making IT cost supply.
Id say make FG a projectile, make ITs eggs have same HP as ITs or increase infestor supply to 3. A combination of 2 of those nerfs should do. Of course youd have to buff another zerg unit like the hydra.!
I would like to see infestors become 3 supply, fungal no longer roots but slows and give IT's some sort of nerf since they're far too good vs air and mech.
Infested terran eggs shouldn't have so much armour and be able to absorb tank volleys as well as they do currently giving a really cost efficient engagement that sort of goes against how zerg should play imo having loads of cost inefficient units and swarming the enemy, but being able to remax really quickly. They shouldn't benefit from attack or armour upgrades either and give infested terrans a damage nerf so it's the same as marines or slightly higher, but not as much as it is currently. It should also cost 30 energy to cast infested terrans instead of 25.
Incase this is misunderstood, I'm not saying all of these should be implemented as it would make the infestor useless but only a handful of the suggestions should be considered.
I'm definitely a fan of 3 supply infestors, think it'd be a huge step in the right direction... but changes would likely still be needed to be made to fungal.
On November 12 2012 16:34 Ralethon wrote: -Change fungal so it does all its damage +15 up front but doesnt immobilize -Make fungal a projectile however a projectile that latches on and chases a single unit -Raise the energy cost of infested terrans to 75 and make them unable to move but give them +2 armor, 7 range and 8x the duration -Change the infestor from heavy to light and buff its health -keep the supply at 2 but raise the gas cost by 50 -Remove NP and replace it with an ability to defend itself and other units from the majority of projectile attacks -give the infestor flying
Ah as i remember, It was in the bleak December and each somber dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.. Fuck!! A ghost! Oh wait terrans dont make those either. NVM <3
Ps. NeVerMore.
Sorry but I like you're changes the least out of the few that I've read.
Fungal doing more damage up front and no slow/ root makes it a storm for zerg.... which is just not what zerg does. Fungal being a projectile is cool and a lot of people have been suggesting this but why does it have to chase a unit. Ensnare and plague didn't and they were really sick. Increasing range / duration/ armor of IT would make them so good for denying expansions. This is just dumb. Sorry. Nerf them and don't give them any buff. Why keep supply at 2. we dont' want them to be massed and 200 gas infestors will still be massed, just at the cost of other units such as mutalisks, hydralisks, ultralisks... anything else. Because infestor is just that good.
Actually... at this point you're either a hidden troll or just lack a solid understanding of the game so I won't even bother writing more.
This my friends is why we should leave balance discussions to the professionals <3
Eagerly I watched Morrow; vainly I had sought to borrow From his play surcease of sorrow, sorrow for the lost build order; For the rare and radiant tactic whom the casters named build order, Working here nevermore.
And the silken sad seeping of each purple queen a'creeping Thrilled me---filled me with fantastic terrors never felt before; So that now, to still the beating of my heart, I stood repeating, 'Tis some visitor entreating entrance at my depot door, Some late visitor entreating entrance at my depot door. This it is, and nothing more."
On November 13 2012 02:13 DemigodcelpH wrote: 3 supply, Fungal changed to a slow, and IT having increased energy cost (40-50) or becoming 0.5 supply. Some combination of these would be decent.
This way, in 200 vs 200 engagements, it doesn't become 300 vs 200 with IT being so absurdly cheap and extremely powerful/effective as they currently are, and fungal will no longer cost effectively counter every unit composition in the game with the abusive stun case being no more.
Decent? Sorry but that are 3 points just remove the infestor instead of talking such shit. Hitler killed jews for no reason and majority agreed jews are trash... were they right? hows that lets claim something wrong and destroy the whole race. OH WAIT YOU SON OF A FILTHY SLUT QQ MORE WHINY CUNT
Funny how people claim that whole zerg race is dependant from infestor. In the past zergs played without infestors and did very well, you just dont see yourself playing without easy mode anymore.
Increase infestor cost 100min 150gas to something like 150min 200 gas. Then increase decrease the energy regeneration rate for infestors so it is going to be hard for infestors to be able to stock up on full energy and spam IT everywhere.
Dammn people are jumping way too hard on the nerf wagon. When you're suggesting nerfs, think REASONABLY FFS.
1. Slow instead of root. 2. IT cost 30 energy. 3. Cannot neural massive. 4. IT do not share upgrades.
That sounds reasonable lol. Not all this other stuff. Instead of changing the damn thing to 3 supply you should instead look @ the potency of its spells.
There are already too many things in this game that cost too much supply as it is. People don't seem to realize that cost is also an effective regulation, along with spell balancing...
Fungal growth: - Immobilize only light units - reduce movement speed by 50% for all others - disable abilities for units (no blink) - do not slow down mothership - not a projectile, but a 1.1sec delay (charge) between cast and spell
IF 3 supply, then - 50% more health - +1 armor while burrowed
Neural Parasite - can be used while borrowed, but reveals the infestor...
Infested Terran - no need to change. They are strong, but also easy to counter and a huge investment in terms of energy
Make Fungal a slow but still stops abilities and make it 3 supply. Can't NP mothership.
On November 13 2012 10:35 pivor wrote: Funny how people claim that whole zerg race is dependant from infestor. In the past zergs played without infestors and did very well, you just dont see yourself playing without easy mode anymore.
On November 13 2012 02:13 DemigodcelpH wrote: 3 supply, Fungal changed to a slow, and IT having increased energy cost (40-50) or becoming 0.5 supply. Some combination of these would be decent.
This way, in 200 vs 200 engagements, it doesn't become 300 vs 200 with IT being so absurdly cheap and extremely powerful/effective as they currently are, and fungal will no longer cost effectively counter every unit composition in the game with the abusive stun case being no more.
Decent? Sorry but that are 3 points just remove the infestor instead of talking such shit. Hitler killed jews for no reason and majority agreed jews are trash... were they right? hows that lets claim something wrong and destroy the whole race. OH WAIT YOU SON OF A FILTHY SLUT QQ MORE WHINY CUNT
On November 13 2012 02:13 DemigodcelpH wrote: 3 supply, Fungal changed to a slow, and IT having increased energy cost (40-50) or becoming 0.5 supply. Some combination of these would be decent.
This way, in 200 vs 200 engagements, it doesn't become 300 vs 200 with IT being so absurdly cheap and extremely powerful/effective as they currently are, and fungal will no longer cost effectively counter every unit composition in the game with the abusive stun case being no more.
Decent? Sorry but that are 3 points just remove the infestor instead of talking such shit. Hitler killed jews for no reason and majority agreed jews are trash... were they right? hows that lets claim something wrong and destroy the whole race. OH WAIT YOU SON OF A FILTHY SLUT QQ MORE WHINY CUNT
what in the fuck is this
It's proof that not only is Godwin's law still relevant but also that Darwinian laws of evolution have failed.
So while Fungal has been nerfed, it is only becoming a big big problem these last months. Well the whine-factor has been enormous the last months. Can't watch a LR thread without "infestors ofc, fungal op, infested terrans op" etc etc. The metagame can't change this? A different build/strategy? Different maps?
Not to say that there shouldn't be a nerf somewhere.. But we're all out of options? We want blizzard to step in?
I would like an option where fungals should be projectile and infested terrans could only be launched from a burrow position. This way you add more micro to the battles. Burrowing infestors pre launching. Getting them up for a fungal, and giving the opponent a chance to retract because of the projectile. More micro, more ooh and aah moments.
Sorry if i sound out of it but im still unsure as to why infestors are even an issue, why is it that a unit that has a proper counter by both other races a problem when the other races arent using the units needed to counter it. im sorry but where are the ghost? we are slowly seeing templars used in zvp to feedback/storm infestors but honestly why no ghost am i missing something or is it just wierd that terran dont think they need to use an ANTI-CASTER unit to counter casters?
I can't remember if I've posted in this thread. But what about getting rid of smart-casting? That would help with the issue of insta-root an army and chain-fungalling. It would also tone down FF's in the game amongst other things.
On November 13 2012 13:44 psychotics wrote: Sorry if i sound out of it but im still unsure as to why infestors are even an issue, why is it that a unit that has a proper counter by both other races a problem when the other races arent using the units needed to counter it. im sorry but where are the ghost? we are slowly seeing templars used in zvp to feedback/storm infestors but honestly why no ghost am i missing something or is it just wierd that terran dont think they need to use an ANTI-CASTER unit to counter casters?
You are kidding right? I have seen this addressed literally close to a hundred times over the last week, go read the threads man.
On November 13 2012 13:44 psychotics wrote: Sorry if i sound out of it but im still unsure as to why infestors are even an issue, why is it that a unit that has a proper counter by both other races a problem when the other races arent using the units needed to counter it. im sorry but where are the ghost? we are slowly seeing templars used in zvp to feedback/storm infestors but honestly why no ghost am i missing something or is it just wierd that terran dont think they need to use an ANTI-CASTER unit to counter casters?
The ghost have pretty much no use other then pure anti caster. so once you have massed them to counter the mass infestor the terran will probably lose to a tech switch from the zerg. If they would revert back the snipe change, maybe tweak it a little vs massive, that would help alot as it would be more viable to make mass ghosts again.
On November 13 2012 13:44 psychotics wrote: Sorry if i sound out of it but im still unsure as to why infestors are even an issue, why is it that a unit that has a proper counter by both other races a problem when the other races arent using the units needed to counter it. im sorry but where are the ghost? we are slowly seeing templars used in zvp to feedback/storm infestors but honestly why no ghost am i missing something or is it just wierd that terran dont think they need to use an ANTI-CASTER unit to counter casters?
The ghost have pretty much no use other then pure anti caster. so once you have massed them to counter the mass infestor the terran will probably lose to a tech switch from the zerg. If they would revert back the snipe change, maybe tweak it a little vs massive, that would help alot as it would be more viable to make mass ghosts again.
It's not even just that, they don't even counter infestors that are controlled semi-competently, especially if Broods are involved. Those bugs are just too big to carpet efficiently with EMPs, and to poke out and snipe them leaves your ghosts super vunerable to getting fungalled and surrounded, or zoned out by Broods etc.
On November 13 2012 13:44 psychotics wrote: Sorry if i sound out of it but im still unsure as to why infestors are even an issue, why is it that a unit that has a proper counter by both other races a problem when the other races arent using the units needed to counter it. im sorry but where are the ghost? we are slowly seeing templars used in zvp to feedback/storm infestors but honestly why no ghost am i missing something or is it just wierd that terran dont think they need to use an ANTI-CASTER unit to counter casters?
The ghost have pretty much no use other then pure anti caster. so once you have massed them to counter the mass infestor the terran will probably lose to a tech switch from the zerg. If they would revert back the snipe change, maybe tweak it a little vs massive, that would help alot as it would be more viable to make mass ghosts again.
It's not even just that, they don't even counter infestors that are controlled semi-competently, especially if Broods are involved. Those bugs are just too big to carpet efficiently with EMPs, and to poke out and snipe them leaves your ghosts super vunerable to getting fungalled and surrounded, or zoned out by Broods etc.
Please show me a code S level game where someone EMPs a group of bunched-up infestors from multiple angles using cloaked ghosts.
Zergs and Protoss figured out how to use our braindead fisher price casters. Now you guys have to!
Currently, the protoss are starting to figure some ways to fight the infestor in mid game. For example, I saw Crank (correct me if I'm wrong) use double forge in pvz for the armor upgrade making it so that zerglings and infested terrans wouldn't be able to do the same amount of damage they would usually do like that fixing the power of infested terran in mid game. The infestor is indeed strong however protoss are already trying to find a new way to beat the zerg.
Although I don't want to go blindly to zerg's favor. I myself have lost many games due to infestor's strong spells. It is simply from the skill point of view pretty much makes the zerg easy to control and doesn't require great micro, positioning and decision making compared to a style like muta ling. The infestor could get a nerf, but we must remember that is shouldn't be too strong or zerg will become weak in early game and vulnerable to various pressures.
On November 13 2012 13:44 psychotics wrote: Sorry if i sound out of it but im still unsure as to why infestors are even an issue, why is it that a unit that has a proper counter by both other races a problem when the other races arent using the units needed to counter it. im sorry but where are the ghost? we are slowly seeing templars used in zvp to feedback/storm infestors but honestly why no ghost am i missing something or is it just wierd that terran dont think they need to use an ANTI-CASTER unit to counter casters?
The ghost have pretty much no use other then pure anti caster. so once you have massed them to counter the mass infestor the terran will probably lose to a tech switch from the zerg. If they would revert back the snipe change, maybe tweak it a little vs massive, that would help alot as it would be more viable to make mass ghosts again.
It's not even just that, they don't even counter infestors that are controlled semi-competently, especially if Broods are involved. Those bugs are just too big to carpet efficiently with EMPs, and to poke out and snipe them leaves your ghosts super vunerable to getting fungalled and surrounded, or zoned out by Broods etc.
Please show me a code S level game where someone EMPs a group of bunched-up infestors from multiple angles using cloaked ghosts.
Gumiho vs, a Kespa player, can't remember who it was.
I've seen it fail over and over though, and notwithstanding that, relying on Zerg not having detection to have a chance of winning a game is fucking terribly shaky play. It was the case when Inca hoped to DT every game against Nestea, it's the same nowadays.
Restoration "Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) "
brood war have the answer to most problems with sc2, including this.
On November 13 2012 14:52 Hemling wrote: Restoration "Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) "
brood war have the answer to most problems with sc2, including this.
Sounds good, as long as it isnt autocast and has a smaller radius then fungal... otherwise infestors would be useless in lategame scenarios.
Adds a nice mechanic to drops if the medivac gets this. You can get rid of fungals but your marines arent healed cuz medivacenergy would finally be a resource that runs out...
I think if FG was made a projectile it be pretty useless, Toss can just blink away with stalkers and zealots with charge just charge past. Stim marines just stim away unless it was a really fast projectile. If blizzard is gonna nerf the infestor they need to buff some other zerg unit to take its place kinda. Maybe if hydras got a buff and infestors got nerfed that might be more balenced. But if infestors got nerfed and no other buffs were added zerg be taking a BIG hit IMO.
Also anyone else notice people want infestors to be returned to the way they were on release.
My suggestion is just make it slow instead of root. Also prevents the use of blink and stim if fungled. Also buff something else so zerg has a more viable alternative to the infestor. Youtube showing what it woulda been like(sorry if already posted) FG projectile I think yea it be more baleneced for the casual player but in pro play it be useless IMO,
On November 13 2012 14:52 Hemling wrote: Restoration "Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) "
brood war have the answer to most problems with sc2, including this.
Devour Magic Consumes all positive and negative buffs from all units in an area. Each unit that is devoured of magic gives back the Destroyer 50 hit points and 75 mana. Deals 180 damage to summoned units.
Warcraft 3 has the answer to a lot of problems, too. They could keep the Infestor exactly the same if each race had access to some AoE dispel. Then there's still that awesome tension in fights where you have people casting spells rapidly and frantically trying to manage large complicated armies. You could, in theory, even design them to be able to dispel Forcefields.
On November 13 2012 14:52 Hemling wrote: Restoration "Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) "
brood war have the answer to most problems with sc2, including this.
Devour Magic Consumes all positive and negative buffs from all units in an area. Each unit that is devoured of magic gives back the Destroyer 50 hit points and 75 mana. Deals 180 damage to summoned units.
Warcraft 3 has the answer to a lot of problems, too. They could keep the Infestor exactly the same if each race had access to some AoE dispel. Then there's still that awesome tension in fights where you have people casting spells rapidly and frantically trying to manage large complicated armies. You could, in theory, even design them to be able to dispel Forcefields.
I hate the infestor, but a spell that kills infested terrans AND dispels fungal while has no effect on storm/feedback/snipe/emp would produce an unbelievable amount of zerg tears, it would basically render infestor a cloaked harass unit and nothing else
what people want to see is make infestor into an unit that you get 4-5 and support your army with, like ghost/templar, not an unit that gets entirely nullified by one spell
On November 13 2012 14:52 Hemling wrote: Restoration "Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) "
brood war have the answer to most problems with sc2, including this.
Sounds good, as long as it isnt autocast and has a smaller radius then fungal... otherwise infestors would be useless in lategame scenarios.
Adds a nice mechanic to drops if the medivac gets this. You can get rid of fungals but your marines arent healed cuz medivacenergy would finally be a resource that runs out...
In brood war Restoration was single target for 50?(correct me if I'm wrong here) Energy that was cast from the Medic.
Mind you, none of the things it countered were AoE except maelstrom and ensnare, both of which were much smaller than current fungal. Maelstrom was the only one that actually stopped a unit(besides lockdown which was single target) Ensnare just slowed by 75%?(Again correct me if I'm wrong on the % here lol) Plague was "sort of" AoE(it migrated to nearby mechanical units ;p) but that's an entirely different thing anyways, not really comparable to fungal.
Now with all that said, Restoration would have to be AoE(obviously smaller than fungal in radius or it'd make fungal kinda useless) and it would be very clunky unless it "did" other things, just like the brood war Restoration did. ;p
It also wouldn't remedy the problems protoss are having with fungal growth, or hell even the problems zerg have in ZvZ with fungal growth. Plus I very much doubt that they'll add a new medivac upgrade(or whatever, but medivac does seem the best place for this upgrade) in WoL. If this was the path they took as a solution we'd see no change till Heart of the Swarm. Somehow I doubt most people want to wait that long.
Is this really about power level? I mean ghosts were nerfed because they were a do it all caster, when it's supposed to be a support unit. The infestor right now counters everything (air, land, massive, everything). Shouldn't they just make it hard-counter less so that it's hard-counters would prevent the massing and boring games that's caused by it? Given that infestor/broodlord seems to be the main source of complaints shouldn't infestors be weakened versus air more than anything else? That would mean that terran could deal with the composition a lot better and so could protoss. However nerfing infestor AA would mean that while versus terran infestor/ultra would still be viable (NP if they go BCs), that composition would be useless versus protoss. Hence nerfing infestor AA would require a buff to hydras. Given that hydras melt to siege tanks and collosi that seems reasonable and making another unit viable would only mean more variety which would make games more fun to watch.
Honestly if infestors get changed, Blizzard is going to have to do something to fix Zerg. Theres a reason we rely so heavily on the infestor. Zergs rely so heavily on infestors to transition from mid to late game where the game is going to really break depending on the course Blizzard wants to take.
For me the best way to balance it out is : You can't kill units with it and becomes projectile. Seems reasnoble to me you can't turn around games because you have 5infestors in the making who kill 50supply of units. The dmg can be dodged so skilled players will beat bad players and also if Zerg player lands it on time it will show the skill of the player. The only thing i see which might make problem is spells like blink but if they buff the speed of the projectile i think it would be fine.
EDIT : Also i think energy nerf should be ok. Like If you have 4-5 festors you need to decide should i spam fungal or spam terrans. If they make it 1 fungal per infestor massing only casters will be shit.
On November 13 2012 17:29 Shinta) wrote: I think this whole thread is ridiculous... Don't change infestors at all = the best case scenario (y)
Most other thought of changes would require either a zerg buff or more zerg units.
Making a major change like that to the infestor would break the game -.-
the reason for this thread is that infestor breaks the game as it is now. also everyone knows that zerg would get a buff if infestor got nerfed hard.
however if it got slight nerfs no buffs would be required, it's your time to accept that.
No... the whole reason for this thread is that some people hate the infestor. You want to make a significant change to the infestor? 1) make the cost 3 supply 2) nerf the infestor 2a) make aoe smaller 2b) make eggs same hp as IT 3) buff the infestor. 3a) make aoe range longer 3b) increase ms of infestor
I think this unnecessary change will be sufficient to calm you guys down.
Edit: all other proposed nerfs suggested in this thread seem to be completely ridiculous, and wouldn't contribute to the game at all imho.
On November 13 2012 18:08 Severus_ wrote: For me the best way to balance it out is : You can't kill units with it and becomes projectile. Seems reasnoble to me you can't turn around games because you have 5infestors in the making who kill 50supply of units. The dmg can be dodged so skilled players will beat bad players and also if Zerg player lands it on time it will show the skill of the player. The only thing i see which might make problem is spells like blink but if they buff the speed of the projectile i think it would be fine.
EDIT : Also i think energy nerf should be ok. Like If you have 4-5 festors you need to decide should i spam fungal or spam terrans. If they make it 1 fungal per infestor massing only casters will be shit.
If you can't kill units with it, it becomes a projectile, and the energy is nerfed, the infestor will be 100% obsolete. Used in about 5% of all zerg games. Having it become a projectile is the only viable option of those 3
Can't kill units is an interesting idea to force it into a support unit position, but things significant buffs need to also be suggested. Reducing energy to allow only 1 fungal will make the infestor near worthless, and never used.
On November 13 2012 14:52 Hemling wrote: Restoration "Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) "
brood war have the answer to most problems with sc2, including this.
Sounds good, as long as it isnt autocast and has a smaller radius then fungal... otherwise infestors would be useless in lategame scenarios.
Adds a nice mechanic to drops if the medivac gets this. You can get rid of fungals but your marines arent healed cuz medivacenergy would finally be a resource that runs out...
Wasn't phase shield for the Protoss something similar to this in HoTS, and apparently it didn't see much use and got scrapped?
I think they could just remove Infested Terran, make Neural Parasite standard, and then buff Hydras (or make them cheaper). That would mean you still keep Fungal Growth along the Hive tech path, but you don't just get to spam one type of unit to do everything. It would force more diverse compositions and actual financial commitment to ranged ground-to-air units.
On November 13 2012 14:52 Hemling wrote: Restoration "Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) "
brood war have the answer to most problems with sc2, including this.
Sounds good, as long as it isnt autocast and has a smaller radius then fungal... otherwise infestors would be useless in lategame scenarios.
Adds a nice mechanic to drops if the medivac gets this. You can get rid of fungals but your marines arent healed cuz medivacenergy would finally be a resource that runs out...
In brood war Restoration was single target for 50?(correct me if I'm wrong here) Energy that was cast from the Medic.
Mind you, none of the things it countered were AoE except maelstrom and ensnare, both of which were much smaller than current fungal. Maelstrom was the only one that actually stopped a unit(besides lockdown which was single target) Ensnare just slowed by 75%?(Again correct me if I'm wrong on the % here lol) Plague was "sort of" AoE(it migrated to nearby mechanical units ;p) but that's an entirely different thing anyways, not really comparable to fungal.
Now with all that said, Restoration would have to be AoE(obviously smaller than fungal in radius or it'd make fungal kinda useless) and it would be very clunky unless it "did" other things, just like the brood war Restoration did. ;p
It also wouldn't remedy the problems protoss are having with fungal growth, or hell even the problems zerg have in ZvZ with fungal growth. Plus I very much doubt that they'll add a new medivac upgrade(or whatever, but medivac does seem the best place for this upgrade) in WoL. If this was the path they took as a solution we'd see no change till Heart of the Swarm. Somehow I doubt most people want to wait that long.
Uhhh, you need to get your facts straight about BW plague. It was straight up AoE exactly how you describe maelstrom / Ensnare (put plague debuff on every target hit) and would do 300 damage as a DOT on the target unless it was removed by restoration or the target dropped below 4 HP (it was 3 damage per tick but couldn't kill the unit. Thus, a unit could wind up with 1, 2, or 3 HP at the end of the plague.) (on protoss, it would damage hull but not shields) And it didn't "spread" either.
Just chiming in about fact checking, don't mind me.
On November 13 2012 14:52 Hemling wrote: Restoration "Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) "
brood war have the answer to most problems with sc2, including this.
Sounds good, as long as it isnt autocast and has a smaller radius then fungal... otherwise infestors would be useless in lategame scenarios.
Adds a nice mechanic to drops if the medivac gets this. You can get rid of fungals but your marines arent healed cuz medivacenergy would finally be a resource that runs out...
Wasn't phase shield for the Protoss something similar to this in HoTS, and apparently it didn't see much use and got scrapped?
No, it actually got scrapped because it countered Fungal way too hard, and didn't see any of use against other abilities. At least, that is what Blizzard said in one of their posts before changing the Oracle, as explanation why they didn't like the Phase Shield.
On November 13 2012 18:04 ReachTheSky wrote: The infestor is way too versatile. Its all purpose. Does everything, for a cheap cost. Make it less versatile.
It's almost like marines just it cost gas and is tier2.
For the zerg units I feel like the infestor itself makes it so that allot of units cant show the full potential . Here is something From a previous post of mine of the problem
“As the game functions right now the problem with fungal It’s not about that the ability itself but the advantage being to advance thru one tech tree without taking any major risk. What we have to remember fungal growth is one of the ability that have changed the most since the launch of sc2. The changes was done initially done to give zerg a better response to handling Protoss armored units. I think everyone agrees on that handling allot of the late game protoss composition without fungals would be impossible. The problem here is that the fungal when first presented had a low damage output and a long rotting effect(it was also a missile attack if remember it correctly). When increasing the damage to handle protoss ground units more effectively it lead to a different problem that is present now. This is also why these kinds of big changes on abilities should not be done often as the effect of the changes can lead to different problems in the future. The problem that has occurred is the fugal effectives off handling air units. I think people agree on that choosing different unit composition should lead to different advantages and disadvantages. One unit should not be the answer to everything. The following logic was presented from blizzard when nerfing ghost:
"Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic We felt the Snipe ability was countering zerg broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well. Especially at the pro level, we were seeing a lot of games where terran players were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts to counter most of the options zerg players had at their disposal. While we like to see creative and innovative use of units, we felt that in this case Snipe was becoming too effective against zerg’s most expensive units. When adjusting the ability, we tried to settle on a number that would allow using Snipe to remain a viable tactic, though not as powerful as it is now. With this change, brood lords will fall in ten casts of Snipe rather than six (taking into account health regeneration), while an ultralisk will die in 21 casts, up from 11. This also significantly increases the number of ghosts and stockpiled energy needed to pull this tactic off, which we feel confident about because, previously, terran players rarely needed to consider the energy on their ghosts units. “ (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4448820/Situation_Report_Patch_143-2_10_2012)
The exact logic and be applied to fungal growth. Infesters are able to counter most options every other race can present. Previously a well executed air attack from protoss could force hydras if the zerg couldn’t handel it with spore crawlers and queens. Blizzard further patched the spore crawlers rooting time to make it easier for zergs. After the infester changed combined with people figuring out the effectiveness off fungal u could now bypass hydras completely without any problems at all. U end up going to the infesters tech which u would have gone for anyway. The opponent is no longer able to force u do adjust your play with his air play and can comfortably play as u wanted to do .
Instead it should be choice of going hydras or doing a good defend with queens and spores. IF u wish to skip hydras/coroupters and take the risk to defend air only with queens and spores u should be rewarded with being able to go infesters. Currently there is no risk att all since the infesters with fungal combined with infested terran counters air units. Fungal growth is not game breaking with any means or overpowered but it does give a unfair advantage to zerg . I believe infesters effectives against air units should be addressed . There should be a bigger risk of going infesters for zerg since the other lair tech choices presents risk factors that seem to be lacking in the infesters. This problem becomes more apparent in late game where the fungal ability is used to both shut down the ground and air army. Making you rely less on your corrupters. Infested terran used to supplement the lack of attacking units which allows u to have a higher supply of infesters.
This is my take on it and its only an opinion and by no means facts. I believe people have different opinions in this subject and its more beneficial to present them that trashing down other people opinions.
With the hots beta out now I think it’s a good time to find other solution to supplement the role that fungal growth gives now. In wings of liberty its made sense to use infesters to address the issue zerg hade with protos but with the hots beta I hope they try to find other ways.
My suggestion is to change the fungal growth completely to a mass corruption spell. The abilty will work ass following: spawns swamp pool in the target area. Units/building 1.5 radius(believe it’s the same range as blinding cloud) will take 20% more damage. The damage increase can be adjusted and if it should work on buildings and your own units.
The idea here is to increase the skill cap for the area control and have an ability that by itself isn’t good but synergize with the other units well. The concept of space control should work similar to the creep spread. As players don’t want to fight when they are on creep they would not like to take a fight if there units are in the clouded area. In that sense u can put this ability down to force your opponent to reposition but it’s their choice if they want to engage with less favorable position or a 20% more damage taken. Fungal growth in its current form forces the engement without any opportunity to retreat. Overall this spell should work better with the current zerg units and allow hydras,swarmhost and viper be more favorable to use. At the same time combining any of these units with the infesters would make them more effective.
Poll: Is the change worth testing out in the beta?
No (4)
100%
Yes (0)
0%
4 total votes
Your vote: Is the change worth testing out in the beta?
Reminder: if fungal growth is changed to not do enormous damage reliably, you have to buff: -the hydralisk -the mutalisk -the roach -the zergling ... basically all the units that have idiotic stats and can't cost-effectively fight without fungal DPS assisting
Well this thread seems to have become a place where people post their ideas on how to change the infestor so here's my suggestion.
Nerfs
Fungal - remove the damage and the root, make it just an AoE snare.
Infested Terran - Increase the energy cost from 25 to 50.
Buffs
Infested Terran - When they die, they explode causing an AoE damage over time effect pretty much identical to the damage component of current fungal growth.
Before you start rage typing about how insanely OP that might be, keep in mind a few key points: 1. There would be half as many infested terrans due to the cost being doubled. This is a massive nerf the the tank-y-ness issue and their raw dps out put. 2. Infested terran's move at a snails pace. They are easy to walk away from and the snare value of fungal could be tuned to just the right amount where player skill on both sides can effect how much damage the combination of spells does. 3. You might say, wait, even at 50 energy, this means you could cause the AoE damage effect more times than you could when it is part of the 75 energy fungal growth! But remeber this AoE damage, just like modern Fungal or Storm, doesn't overlap. So getting hit with it multiple times just means the duration timer starts over again with no increase in damage per second done. More importantly, it could now be dodged by running from the ITs before they die. Its up to the Zerg player to force you into a spot where you can't avoid them, or to use them to force you to run away when they don't want to fight you in that position.
The result - both spells are weakened from their current state, yet both still have a role and feel threatening. Each spell has a more directed purpose: fungal is a debuff, IT's are a positional damage source. The effect of each spell can be mitigated by the opponent's micro. Zerg still has an AoE alternative to banelings and ultras. IT's are still powerful when you can force your opponent to fight them, but less so in mid map engagements. And if any of these changes end up being too severe of a nerf, the strength of the fungal snare, IT explosion, or core IT health/dps could be adjusted independently to make sure the Infestor is still a desirable unit.
Remove smart cast, i guess it sounds like a degrade in terms of "evolving sc2" but i feel that most problems would be solved or at least fixed a little. But i guess this would never happen since it would make sc2 not very noob friendly which is Blizzards target market.
Please add the option of increased energy cost of Infested terrans. I think they are the real problem with the unit. Zerg needs fungal imo but the spawning free armies at such a rapid pace is silly.
IMO Infested Terrans should cost 35 energy. It means Infestors can only make 2 upon creation and they can only make 5 at max energy instead of 8.
One of the problems I have always had with fungal growth is how it produces and instantaneous swing in advantage to zerg that cant be microed out of. For players it is frustrating, and for spectators it is boring.
To improve this I propose making fungal growth start at 100% movement speed and reduce to 0% movement speed over the duration of the spell. I do not know how the SC2 engine works, therefore it may be difficult to implement a continuous and steady decreased from 100 to 0, therefore a voidray like implementation could be used. For the first second of duration the units have 90% movement speed, the second second they have 60% movement speed, the third second they have 30% movement speed, and for the final second the units are immobilized.
For me this works for the spell since it is a "Fungal Growth" and grows over time until the unit is rooted to the ground. This new workup of the spell would allow a player to micro in a limited capacity to help reduce the losses after the spell is cast. The spell is still very powerful and disruptive, however now allows for micro by the player and is much more exciting for the spectator. Imagine castors yelling "OMG Fungal on all those marines! The Banelings are coming! AN AMAZING SPLIT, those banelings were not very cost efficient there!". Or "Fungal on the medivac, is it going to get out of range of that queen in time... They its slowing ANNNNNNNNNNND IT GOT AWAY WITH 5hp!".
The slowing coefficents for each second the duration can be tweaked heavily to produce interesting dynamics with the units based on relative speeds between zerg units and other races.
On November 13 2012 14:52 Hemling wrote: Restoration "Removes Lockdown, Optic Flare, Irradiate, Plague, Ensnare, Parasite, and Maelstrom from targeted unit. (Cannot target units that are under the effect of Stasis Field and Defensive Matrix.) "
brood war have the answer to most problems with sc2, including this.
Sounds good, as long as it isnt autocast and has a smaller radius then fungal... otherwise infestors would be useless in lategame scenarios.
Adds a nice mechanic to drops if the medivac gets this. You can get rid of fungals but your marines arent healed cuz medivacenergy would finally be a resource that runs out...
In brood war Restoration was single target for 50?(correct me if I'm wrong here) Energy that was cast from the Medic.
Mind you, none of the things it countered were AoE except maelstrom and ensnare, both of which were much smaller than current fungal. Maelstrom was the only one that actually stopped a unit(besides lockdown which was single target) Ensnare just slowed by 75%?(Again correct me if I'm wrong on the % here lol) Plague was "sort of" AoE(it migrated to nearby mechanical units ;p) but that's an entirely different thing anyways, not really comparable to fungal.
Now with all that said, Restoration would have to be AoE(obviously smaller than fungal in radius or it'd make fungal kinda useless) and it would be very clunky unless it "did" other things, just like the brood war Restoration did. ;p
It also wouldn't remedy the problems protoss are having with fungal growth, or hell even the problems zerg have in ZvZ with fungal growth. Plus I very much doubt that they'll add a new medivac upgrade(or whatever, but medivac does seem the best place for this upgrade) in WoL. If this was the path they took as a solution we'd see no change till Heart of the Swarm. Somehow I doubt most people want to wait that long.
Uhhh, you need to get your facts straight about BW plague. It was straight up AoE exactly how you describe maelstrom / Ensnare (put plague debuff on every target hit) and would do 300 damage as a DOT on the target unless it was removed by restoration or the target dropped below 4 HP (it was 3 damage per tick but couldn't kill the unit. Thus, a unit could wind up with 1, 2, or 3 HP at the end of the plague.) (on protoss, it would damage hull but not shields) And it didn't "spread" either.
Just chiming in about fact checking, don't mind me.
Oh no worries, that's why I said I wasn't sure about a lot of these things, it's been like 5 years since I've last played brood war. xD I just remembered it as spreading(I guess cause it's AoE was quite small?) but yeah. <3
I pray that this nerf comes soon for the sake of SC2.
I just watched TheSTC outplay this zerg so fucking hard and the zerg won somehow. It was like watching a top 15 grandmaster play a low master player. I can't take much more of this game in its current state.
imo i think that fungal growth should slow for 19.8% and it can stack up to five times so it stops at 99%. For units with special abilities like for example blink the ability should have a little cooldown. I think the damage should also stack like maybe for example 20 25 30 35 etc. This is with the projectile version of fg.
I am going to say once what the only real considerations should be at this stage. -First change Infested terran cost to 35 energy. -Consider making fungal slow massive units instead of stopping them. -Also consider the idea of fungal having a "delayed effect of armored units. Slow for 2 seconds, root for 2 seconds. I think fungal should not be changed for light units at all and the damage should not be changed for armored but you could fit some cool effects of slow spreading fungal on a unit while giving a good player a brief chance to micro before getting rooted (abilities like blink would obviously be nullified instantly.
These changes should be implemented first and if zergs are still playing one dimensionally then more changes should be considered.
On November 14 2012 13:32 Goshdarnit wrote: I am going to say once what the only real considerations should be at this stage. -First change Infested terran cost to 35 energy. -Consider making fungal slow massive units instead of stopping them. -Also consider the idea of fungal having a "delayed effect of armored units. Slow for 2 seconds, root for 2 seconds. I think fungal should not be changed for light units at all and the damage should not be changed for armored but you could fit some cool effects of slow spreading fungal on a unit while giving a good player a brief chance to micro before getting rooted (abilities like blink would obviously be nullified instantly.
These changes should be implemented first and if zergs are still playing one dimensionally then more changes should be considered.
Everyone should keep an open mind of what can, and what will, prevent mass infestor/OP infestor/BL armies. There are some subtle changes that will completely invalidate mass infestor play. These are not the *only* changes that should be considered. In fact, slowing massive units will not change anything about TvZ play because thors are already so slow that slowing them with fungal is the same as rooting them. In PvZ, fungal is not the problem for archons, its the broodlings. No longer rooting the collosi only buffs prehive protoss timings while not even helping the lategame PvZ situation (which is the exact opposite what the change should be doing). Changing IT to 35 energy could help for mass infestor play in ZvT (although I'm not so certain, now instead of 20 full energy infestors lobbing out 160 IT, they will lob out 100. Will that be enough to actually push people away from mass infestors?), but the problem is still the fungal in ZvP.
Given that all matchups with zerg are currently balanced around the infestor it's pretty silly to talk about changing the infestor without talking about adjusting the rest of the game. It's like saying forcefield should be nerfed without saying how protoss is going to survive the early game without having it in the current form. Remember what the game looked like for zerg before blizzard turned the infestor into a core unit? Not pretty. I can't stand the unit and would love to see it changed but right now as the rest of the game stands it's pretty essential in both zvp and zvt.
On November 14 2012 14:07 reikai wrote: Make Infested Terrans cost 25 Minerals :D
This is a terrible idea, zergs will just turtle until late game, bank 10k minerals, then push out with maxed broodlord/infestor and infinity infested terrans (unless you mean both 25 minerals and 25 energy)
Well, if we look at Infestor, I'd say that Fungal Growth is the most broken thing about it.
Next we can look at what would actually make sense. Fungal hitting airbourne opponents doesn't make any sense, and it could use a delay because they probably can't grow instantly. Maybe like half a second before it takes effect, or even a full second. Might need to buff Neural Parasite to help with anti-airing but I think that it's important to first try changes that make the most sense story/setting-wise.
I also think that burrowmove should require an upgrade and that summoned units shouldn't get upgrades but that would likely require additional zerg buffs or nerfs for other races.
On November 14 2012 23:26 Shikyo wrote: Well, if we look at Infestor, I'd say that Fungal Growth is the most broken thing about it.
Next we can look at what would actually make sense. Fungal hitting airbourne opponents doesn't make any sense, and it could use a delay because they probably can't grow instantly. Maybe like half a second before it takes effect, or even a full second. Might need to buff Neural Parasite to help with anti-airing but I think that it's important to first try changes that make the most sense story/setting-wise.
I also think that burrowmove should require an upgrade and that summoned units shouldn't get upgrades but that would likely require additional zerg buffs or nerfs for other races.
If you remove the anti air ability what anti air units does the zerg still have that can attack both? muta's and queens. the moment you mes around with the anti air you have to give hydra's a buff so they can be used as compensation and because they are simply useless now.
On November 14 2012 10:52 Wilsonator wrote: One of the problems I have always had with fungal growth is how it produces and instantaneous swing in advantage to zerg that cant be microed out of. For players it is frustrating, and for spectators it is boring.
To improve this I propose making fungal growth start at 100% movement speed and reduce to 0% movement speed over the duration of the spell. I do not know how the SC2 engine works, therefore it may be difficult to implement a continuous and steady decreased from 100 to 0, therefore a voidray like implementation could be used. For the first second of duration the units have 90% movement speed, the second second they have 60% movement speed, the third second they have 30% movement speed, and for the final second the units are immobilized.
For me this works for the spell since it is a "Fungal Growth" and grows over time until the unit is rooted to the ground. This new workup of the spell would allow a player to micro in a limited capacity to help reduce the losses after the spell is cast. The spell is still very powerful and disruptive, however now allows for micro by the player and is much more exciting for the spectator. Imagine castors yelling "OMG Fungal on all those marines! The Banelings are coming! AN AMAZING SPLIT, those banelings were not very cost efficient there!". Or "Fungal on the medivac, is it going to get out of range of that queen in time... They its slowing ANNNNNNNNNNND IT GOT AWAY WITH 5hp!".
The slowing coefficents for each second the duration can be tweaked heavily to produce interesting dynamics with the units based on relative speeds between zerg units and other races.
What does TL think of this idea?
I agree that the slow effect changing over time is the best solution. It adds a dynamic twist while compromising between root (which is just bad) and straight up slow (which is redundant with time warp now).
Not entirely sure, but I think it might be better to start at 0% movement speed and increase to 100%. At least, I think that would work better for fungals/banelings versus marines since a good Terran can just split like normal if it starts at 100%.
Just saying, these polls aren't credible, and making infested terran eggs the same HP as an infested terran renders them useless because the only reason they are used in ZvT is cause of the HP so you can bust in with the rest of your army. and in ZvP they will be killed so fast by a colossus or a storm, and in ZvT, tanks will just kill them in like what, 2 shots? And in ZvZ it doesn't matter though.
The only change of these that would make the game more interesting is fungal growth projectile, and maybe slow (but I think that's too much of a nerf). honestly, the game is fine as it is and we don't need to see changes until HotS is out.
On November 15 2012 08:06 NOOBALOPSE wrote: Just saying, these polls aren't credible, and making infested terran eggs the same HP as an infested terran renders them useless because the only reason they are used in ZvT is cause of the HP so you can bust in with the rest of your army. and in ZvP they will be killed so fast by a colossus or a storm, and in ZvT, tanks will just kill them in like what, 2 shots? And in ZvZ it doesn't matter though.
The only change of these that would make the game more interesting is fungal growth projectile, and maybe slow (but I think that's too much of a nerf). honestly, the game is fine as it is and we don't need to see changes until HotS is out.
Let the free units kill the other free units woooooooooo
I don't know if anyone has had this idea yet. But what if infested terrans didn't get the ranged attack upgrades. Maybe carapace too. But it would make them weaker only in the late game when there are lots of infestors.
On November 14 2012 17:33 NexCa wrote: Yes, Yes and freakn MORE Yes !
Reason: Same goes for Storm and EMP, they can hit your own units and you need to control your infestors better if fungal can target your own units !
Reason 2: Remove that freakn energy upgrade ! Same for Ghosts, since HT's don't have energy upgrade either.
Reason 3: Fungal can't kill units, like bloodbath from defiler in SC:BW, that would be enough.
Reason 4: You can still use blink if you're being fungaled
The reason HT don't have the energy upgrade is cause it meant instant storm. Just warp in templar and storm. When you need ghosts or infestors or ravens you need to aticipate when you have to build them. So they pop out when you need it. HT w/ energy upgrade needs no preperation. Just warp in 2 and storm twice and morph into archon.
FYI, Blizz is choosing projectile Fungal and Psionic immune to NP as the test solution.
We are going to make a balance test map on WOL realms. On this map, Psionic units will be immune to Neural Parasite. On HOTS BETA, we are going to add a projectile back to Fungal Growth, just like we did in patch 1.3 PTR.
All i ask is that either Infestor loses damage output or loses the freeze. Its just the combination of he two which make it so devastating. Would it be so bad if there was no damage on fungal and instead it was essentially an ensare (obviously lower energy cost) then you can pop the infested terrans to do damage.
Or if the fungal was a plague and then you trapped the unit with a few infested terran eggs to one shot the marines left over.
The problem i have is that once you are funagled thats it, your army is fucked and its game over at this point since the zerg will just run away fungal-run away-fungal back and forth till your army is dead.
I'm leaning towards changing fungal in a way that allows more micro, a la fungal projectile. Something I think could be interesting was if fungal was "instant cast" but with a delay timer.
for example, if you cast fungal over a group of marines, they'll see the animation on that location, but the effect won't start for another second, for example, allowing the player to move his units out of the way. This could allow for some interesting micro, without changing fungal too much.
As an aside, I feel like infested terrans are the real issue, moreso than fungal.
On November 18 2012 10:22 leb wrote: I'm leaning towards changing fungal in a way that allows more micro, a la fungal projectile. Something I think could be interesting was if fungal was "instant cast" but with a delay timer.
for example, if you cast fungal over a group of marines, they'll see the animation on that location, but the effect won't start for another second, for example, allowing the player to move his units out of the way. This could allow for some interesting micro, without changing fungal too much.
I agree about this being an interesting change, but I'm not sure if it's right. A big part of Fungal's relevance is that it's there to solve problems; be they mass sentry pushes or a lot of bio, or holding blink stalkers/phoenixes in place. I play Protoss and obviously it would make the game easier for me if I could micro out of Fungals with a number of my units, but if Fungal doesn't stop Blink, what do zergs have to deal with it? Lings and Hydras are fine soft counters to blink stalkers, but Fungal is a very long-ranged way of handling blink stalkers+colossi. And that army does need to have answers, or it's just as ridiculous as BL+Infestor.
As an aside, I feel like infested terrans are the real issue, moreso than fungal.
It's more than it being a 25 energy unit that costs no money; it's also that it costs no larva. Isnt' that supposed to be the upside and downside to Zerg? You live by the larva, you die by the larva. You can build anything from one building, but you need larva for everything. You can build either pure drones or pure units, but once you build something from larva there's no going back.
I keep thinking about Necromancers and Rod of Necromancy from Warcraft 3, and needing Skeletons was always a relevant restriction on cheap summons. Units need to cost something. If it isn't minerals or gas, it needs to be supply. If it isn't supply, it needs to be a significant portion of energy. If not that, then there has to be a major cooldown. If not that, then the unit needs to take up Larvae. If not that, then the unit needs to have really crappy statistics. And if none of those restrictions are used, then the unit just needs to get out of the game.
There shouldn't be any such thing as a free lunch.
A main argument made about why infestors should have access to their energy upgrade while HT should not is that the +25 energy generation time for a storm is about equal to the build time of the infestor.
While I agree that indeed khaydarian amulet for HT was very overpowered, I also believe that in the current state of the game, things are not equal between HT and infestors (in terms of energy).
My reasoning is that, even though the time between choosing to build an infestor and it actually spawning (with +25 energy from the upgrade for an instant fungal) is about equal to the time between warping in a HT and it having enough energy for a storm, the zerg does not have to babysit a slow/fragile caster for 45 in game seconds.
Say that a zerg is under pressure and is building 6 infestors to deflect the agression with fungal growth. They can stall and stall until the infestors spawn, and when they do, the infestors are immediately useful (capable of fungal growth).
In contrast, say that a protoss is under pressure and has the gas to build 6 HT to deflect the aggression with storm. They warp in the 6 HT, and they need to keep these HT alive/out of danger for 45 in game seconds until they change from expensive/slow fodder to a useful caster.
To me, it seems that zerg players (and also spectators) are able to maintain an "out-of-sight-out-of-mind" mentality when infestors are being built, and their immediate usefulness upon spawning reminds me very much of Khaydarian amulet.
Do I have a solution to offer? No. But this is something that has struck me as flawed and that I wanted to share with others.
Would a good change for fungal be a stacking slow? Since the problem seems to be that you can permanently fungal an army in place, why not make it so the first fungal gives units a 20% slow debuff (lasts around 4 seconds), if you fungal those units again in the next 4 seconds it goes to 40% etc, cap movespd slow at 80% or 100% w/e
Think a good play would be not being able to kill units outright (like plague in BW), also might want to change it to projectile although both combined may make it a little too weak. Would have to be tested though
On November 18 2012 10:46 lawls544 wrote: A main argument made about why infestors should have access to their energy upgrade while HT should not is that the +25 energy generation time for a storm is about equal to the build time of the infestor.
While I agree that indeed khaydarian amulet for HT was very overpowered, I also believe that in the current state of the game, things are not equal between HT and infestors (in terms of energy).
My reasoning is that, even though the time between choosing to build an infestor and it actually spawning (with +25 energy from the upgrade for an instant fungal) is about equal to the time between warping in a HT and it having enough energy for a storm, the zerg does not have to babysit a slow/fragile caster for 45 in game seconds.
Say that a zerg is under pressure and is building 6 infestors to deflect the agression with fungal growth. They can stall and stall until the infestors spawn, and when they do, the infestors are immediately useful (capable of fungal growth).
In contrast, say that a protoss is under pressure and has the gas to build 6 HT to deflect the aggression with storm. They warp in the 6 HT, and they need to keep these HT alive/out of danger for 45 in game seconds until they change from expensive/slow fodder to a useful caster.
To me, it seems that zerg players (and also spectators) are able to maintain an "out-of-sight-out-of-mind" mentality when infestors are being built, and their immediate usefulness upon spawning reminds me very much of Khaydarian amulet.
Do I have a solution to offer? No. But this is something that has struck me as flawed and that I wanted to share with others.
What is the build time for the infestor? One of the fundamental issues was instantly being able to warp in HT's that had storm capabilities so u need to disregard the difference between build time and time it takes for HT to gain mana. If lets say infestor build time is 30 seconds then its actually only 15 seconds faster than HT which isn't that big of an issue
Chain fungal is my main issue with the infestor... Well that and the fact that you can never make too many infestors... there's always a good way to spend their energy
[/QUOTE] Raven, siege tank, high templar, immortal.
It would be more accurate to say no more neural on mothership, but it's not like neural on the above four mentioned units would be useless.[/QUOTE]
I feel that you'll never see a effective neural take place on a siege tank or high templar. To easily and quickly it would be for a high templar to feedback the incoming infestors. And a neural on siege tanks would not prove to be worth while at all, provided you even go close in range to neural one that is in siege mode and not focus firing the infestors already.
Neural on ravens and immortals though is really interesting though!
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading.
TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
buffing feedback wont help against a superlategame bl infestor army comp because the hightemplars cant reach the infestors in the first place(due to broodlings) and feedbacking a couple of infestors wont change the outcome of the fight. also it will most certainly create new problems for terrans in tvp due to collosus range + observers, protoss could just keep terran's army at bay while feedbacking all their ghosts..
The infestors have to come forward to fungal the stalkers, so the HTs should be able to feedback them then with added range.
EPT
) but i would like the range of neural increased to its previous value (though its role might overlap with the viper ability to snatch units...)
units should be supply-lite but weaker.
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