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I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves.
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ultras and hydras need buff if this happens otherwise mech and protoss 3 base will become slightly too strong.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote:
I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves.
This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into.
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On November 09 2012 04:17 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 03:46 MrBitter wrote:Posted this in the Blizz pro forums just yesterday: + Show Spoiler +Hi dudes,
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading. TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe. Actually this is a really interesting way of balancing the game. Instead of nerfing units, you buff other ones.
You guys seriously didn't think this through.
The whole point caster vs infestors is not about "not getting the snipes" is that ghosts and HT's are specialized casters, they can't be the core of your army like infestors are. You have a limited amount of them on your army. Buffing snipe and feedback, would actually change the PvT match up in a bad way, making easier for the protoss to hold any kind of air harassment play.
That change wouldn't make the infestor less "core", it would make the other two casters a bit better at countering them, in the case of the ghost, the primary reason is because outside sniping infestors, they don't have any other purpose, and any tech switch will get rid of them.
Maybe it's just me, but infestors shouldn't be a core unit of an army in the very first place.
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On November 09 2012 04:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote:
I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves. This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into.
I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no?
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On November 09 2012 03:46 MrBitter wrote:Posted this in the Blizz pro forums just yesterday: + Show Spoiler +Hi dudes,
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading. TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
I really like this suggestion. Usually they don't nerf the problem, they buff it's counter to keep the game balanced. if you nerf fungal or burrow or IT then you effectively destroy all zerg builds. instead, forcing zergs to use good control, positioning and micro by buffing snipe/feedback then you will have your answer
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On November 09 2012 04:23 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:17 DidYuhim wrote:On November 09 2012 03:46 MrBitter wrote:Posted this in the Blizz pro forums just yesterday: + Show Spoiler +Hi dudes,
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading. TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe. Actually this is a really interesting way of balancing the game. Instead of nerfing units, you buff other ones. You guys seriously didn't think this through. The whole point caster vs infestors is not about "not getting the snipes" is that ghosts and HT's are specialized casters, they can't be the core of your army like infestors are. You have a limited amount of them on your army. Buffing snipe and feedback, would actually change the PvT match up in a bad way, making easier for the protoss to hold any kind of air harassment play. That change wouldn't make the infestor less "core", it would make the other two casters a bit better at countering them, in the case of the ghost, the primary reason is because outside sniping infestors, they don't have any other purpose, and any tech switch will get rid of them. Maybe it's just me, but infestors shouldn't be a core unit of an army in the very first place.
Then buff hydra's or something so that can be the core of the zerg army (like it should).
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On November 09 2012 04:23 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:17 DidYuhim wrote:On November 09 2012 03:46 MrBitter wrote:Posted this in the Blizz pro forums just yesterday: + Show Spoiler +Hi dudes,
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading. TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe. Actually this is a really interesting way of balancing the game. Instead of nerfing units, you buff other ones. You guys seriously didn't think this through. The whole point caster vs infestors is not about "not getting the snipes" is that ghosts and HT's are specialized casters, they can't be the core of your army like infestors are. You have a limited amount of them on your army. Buffing snipe and feedback, would actually change the PvT match up in a bad way, making easier for the protoss to hold any kind of air harassment play. That change wouldn't make the infestor less "core", it would make the other two casters a bit better at countering them, in the case of the ghost, the primary reason is because outside sniping infestors, they don't have any other purpose, and any tech switch will get rid of them.
Maybe it's just me, but infestors shouldn't be a core unit of an army in the very first place.
Agreed, same reason why ghost was nerfed back when lategame Terrans were getting 25 of them.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 09 2012 04:26 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote:
I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves. This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into. I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no?
I want infestors to be nerfed in a way that puts emphasis on the core units and proper larvae management. Right now there's no disadvantage that outstrips the advantage of making 35-40 infestors. But we rarely see hydras and ultralisks in any matchup besides ZvZ these days.
Templar weren't used in PvZ in general besides turtling on Entombed Valley, fighting off mutalisk play, and a few specific archon timing pushes. That is based on the bad design of Protoss.
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On November 09 2012 04:31 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:26 hitpoint wrote:On November 09 2012 04:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote:
I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves. This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into. I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no? I want infestors to be nerfed in a way that puts emphasis on the core units and proper larvae management. Right now there's no disadvantage that outstrips the advantage of making 35-40 infestors. But we rarely see hydras and ultralisks in any matchup besides ZvZ these days. Templar weren't used in PvZ in general besides turtling on Entombed Valley and a few specific archon timing pushes. That is based on the bad design of Protoss.
really?
I see ultras used quite a bit in ZvT/TvZ
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On November 09 2012 04:31 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:26 hitpoint wrote:On November 09 2012 04:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote:
I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves. This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into. I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no? I want infestors to be nerfed in a way that puts emphasis on the core units and proper larvae management. Right now there's no disadvantage that outstrips the advantage of making 35-40 infestors. But we rarely see hydras and ultralisks in any matchup besides ZvZ these days. Templar weren't used in PvZ in general besides turtling on Entombed Valley and a few specific archon timing pushes. That is based on the bad design of Protoss.
I would like that also, but the core units are very bad right now, and the infestor makes up for them. Something else would need to be buffed to compensate. I haven't been reading your posts so you probably said this already, just making sure.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 09 2012 04:38 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:31 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 09 2012 04:26 hitpoint wrote:On November 09 2012 04:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote:
I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves. This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into. I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no? I want infestors to be nerfed in a way that puts emphasis on the core units and proper larvae management. Right now there's no disadvantage that outstrips the advantage of making 35-40 infestors. But we rarely see hydras and ultralisks in any matchup besides ZvZ these days. Templar weren't used in PvZ in general besides turtling on Entombed Valley and a few specific archon timing pushes. That is based on the bad design of Protoss. I would like that also, but the core units are very bad right now, and the infestor makes up for them. Something else would need to be buffed to compensate. I haven't been reading your posts so you probably said this already, just making sure.
I don't think nerfs to the Infestor will help to balance this game since the current use of Infestors exposes the weaknesses of all three races. Protoss still has a timer before they can access templar/colossi. Zerg still has butt options from lair tech that don't translate into hive tech. Terran still lacks options to harass and push with mech. Upgraded zerglings are pretty damn good though.
On November 09 2012 04:36 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:31 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 09 2012 04:26 hitpoint wrote:On November 09 2012 04:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote:
I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves. This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into. I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no? I want infestors to be nerfed in a way that puts emphasis on the core units and proper larvae management. Right now there's no disadvantage that outstrips the advantage of making 35-40 infestors. But we rarely see hydras and ultralisks in any matchup besides ZvZ these days. Templar weren't used in PvZ in general besides turtling on Entombed Valley and a few specific archon timing pushes. That is based on the bad design of Protoss. really? I see ultras used quite a bit in ZvT/TvZ
Far less than Broodlords.
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On November 09 2012 03:46 MrBitter wrote:Posted this in the Blizz pro forums just yesterday: + Show Spoiler +Hi dudes,
So the infestor has become the target of many people's whines recently. I'm not sure that this is the place to rant about it, but I wanted to get my opinions out there for people to see, and hopefully for Blizzard to comment on.
While I can recognize that tournament results at the highest level have remained varied, I can't help but feel like late game Zerg play has become very face-roll and skill-less. This isn't to say that top level Zerg play isn't impressive - it is, but in certain matchups, on certain maps, and in certain cases, we see the game devolve to Zerg turtling behind spine crawlers and infestors, defending drops and harass, and slowly accumulating a critical mass of brood lord / infestor before pushing out to win the game.
Yes, we were all very impressed when Rain dismantled DRG in the OSL finals, and I can recognize that it is possible for Protoss to win in the super late game against Zerg, but I can't help but to feel that Protoss has to work a lot harder at a certain point in the game to get those impressive wins.
Like... a loooot harder.
When we step back and look at the game, we see a lot of things that are, perhaps, too strong.
Infestors. Brood lords. Spine crawlers. These things are all super powerful.
As are Colossi, blink stalkers, mother ship, and tons of other Protoss stuff.
The problem isn't overpowered stuff. The problem comes when you no longer have an answer to overpowered stuff.
And I do feel that, at a point, infestor broodlord just snowballs out of control.
I don't blame this on it being a far superior fighting army... We've seen Protoss players kill this composition in the past even without vortex.
And I don't blame it on the fungal mechanic shutting down micro.
I think it just boils down to points in the game where Protoss is disallowed from engaging certain aspects of the Zerg army.
A zerg player has to make a mistake for Protoss to kill his infestors. A zerg player has to expose his broodlords for that army to be threatened.
Incidentally, all of this also applies to Terran in some ways.
Fundamentally, I think you can solve this problem with one small change to Protoss, and one small change to Terran... By buffing their anti-infestor casters. The high templar and the ghosts respectively.
I think increasing the range on feedback and snipe would do wonders to bring stability, and MOBILITY back to the matchups, and I also think it would silence the masses that love to cry about the overpoweredness of certain Zerg army compositions.
It's almost impossible for Protoss and Terran players to successfully feedback or snipe infestors without losing the units they commit to doing so. Often, we see Protoss players send 2-3 high templar forward to feedback, successfully kill 1-2 infestors, and lose their units, resulting in a cost-ineffective trade.
I honestly feel like this happens purely because you can never reach infestors.
I would like to see feedback range tested at something like range 12. Give them broodlord range, so that infestors have to be positioned underneath broods, and can be punished if left overly exposed.
This will still preserve the strength of broodlord infestor, while giving Protoss a way to combat the strength of fungal.
Obviously, if you're going to buff feedback, you have to buff snipe, but in this case, I think an equivalent range buff to ghosts would do wonders to ease Terran woes as well. (And for all the same reasons listed above)
For me, as a player, I get very bored of the turtley games that we are continuing to see day in and day out. As a caster, I can put on a blindfold and talk an audience through a PvZ on Daybreak. And as a fan of the game, I long for mechanics that push players away from being static and immobile, and toward being aggressive and active.
I would love to hear what other top players think of this change, and also to see what Blizz has to say on the matter.
<3s and kudos. Thanks for reading. TLDR: Don't nerf infestor. Instead buff the range of feedback and snipe.
Cool post Mr Bitter. I think you're on the right track with your thinking. I don't think Zerg is far off the mark of balance, and as you say, it's only specific situations where the zerg gets a chance to "fort up" and become impossible to attack into. Drastic changes to the infestor would probably be distasterous to the zerg in the mid game when infestors are really the only defence a zerg has against various P and T timings.
Increasing the range of HT and ghosts would help for sure, but perhaps decreasing the speed of infestors could also be a good method of reducing their effectiveness. There's very few things in the game that are as adapt at escaping conflicts, and as such, are a low risk / high reward unit in the mid game. If more of them were killed in the mid game from not being able to retreat effectively, it might be harder to amass that huge 30+ infestor ball of death for the late game.
Also a slower speed would make it harder for zergs to defend multiple areas at once. Often times a P or T will try to attack one side, then retreat and try to take advantage of the broodlords lower mobility on the other side of the map. This is effective to a point, but infestors can often match the speed of the other army on creep, and delay them with fungal until the long range broodlords can catch up and start trouble....particularly when they're all hiding behind a huge spine wall.
Cheers,
Ramone
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On November 09 2012 04:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:38 hitpoint wrote:On November 09 2012 04:31 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 09 2012 04:26 hitpoint wrote:On November 09 2012 04:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote:
I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves. This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into. I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no? I want infestors to be nerfed in a way that puts emphasis on the core units and proper larvae management. Right now there's no disadvantage that outstrips the advantage of making 35-40 infestors. But we rarely see hydras and ultralisks in any matchup besides ZvZ these days. Templar weren't used in PvZ in general besides turtling on Entombed Valley and a few specific archon timing pushes. That is based on the bad design of Protoss. I would like that also, but the core units are very bad right now, and the infestor makes up for them. Something else would need to be buffed to compensate. I haven't been reading your posts so you probably said this already, just making sure. I don't think nerfs to the Infestor will help to balance this game since the current use of Infestors exposes the weaknesses of all three races. Protoss still has a timer before they can access templar/colossi. Zerg still has butt options from lair tech that don't translate into hive tech. Terran still lacks options to harass and push with mech. Upgraded zerglings are pretty damn good though. Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:36 zhurai wrote:On November 09 2012 04:31 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 09 2012 04:26 hitpoint wrote:On November 09 2012 04:23 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 09 2012 04:22 hitpoint wrote:
I think if you only make fungal a snare then it would have to be very slow, and do more damage I think. Because if fungal doesn't freeze units, then it no longer counters mutas or phoenix. Both units are very fast and can split after being fungaled, making it take more energy to kill them than they're worth. If it takes less fungals (if fungal is made do more damage) then a snare is fine I suppose. I just don't want to be forced into muta wars absolutely every single game, or into building worthless slow ass hydras every time phoenix are built in larger numbers than 4.
Actually the best idea I think is absent from your list. Make the range of fungal 1-2 range shorter. It exposes them to more danger such as collosus/emp/tanks/feedbacks so it takes more skill for the zerg to use, and the infestor is more easily countered by it's counters. A clump of ghosts can drain all the infestor energy before being fungaled themselves. This is exactly what we DON'T want this game to devolve into. I agree that counters are garbage, but I'm confused. You want infestors to easily kill ghosts and templar? Because neither seems viable to build against infestors right now, despite ghosts having two abilities that should do well against them. Templar feedback is almost never used against them either in pro matches. reducing the range a little isn't going to make them terrible or something, it just requires zerg to be a little faster than the other guy. Which IS what we want, more skill based games, no? I want infestors to be nerfed in a way that puts emphasis on the core units and proper larvae management. Right now there's no disadvantage that outstrips the advantage of making 35-40 infestors. But we rarely see hydras and ultralisks in any matchup besides ZvZ these days. Templar weren't used in PvZ in general besides turtling on Entombed Valley and a few specific archon timing pushes. That is based on the bad design of Protoss. really? I see ultras used quite a bit in ZvT/TvZ Far less than Broodlords.
Ultras had a moment where they were frequently used, then somewhat recently Zerg's rediscovered how good brood/fester is. I think the initial change was because it's easier to make ultras, where as broods you need time to build the army (timing can sometimes be risky)
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Make fungal growth a combination of plague and ensnare from broodwar (they were both projectiles). Decrease DPS, no effect on protoss shields, non lethal. Make effects last longer, more DOT not sudden DPS
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On November 08 2012 19:30 Tsubbi wrote:
why was balance talk like this always frowned upon, but now that zerg is doing better for the first time in wol lifetime even mods jump in on every thread and support things like this?
also lr threads are just insane lately, so much balance whine and almost no bans
korean winrates are still pretty close to 50% and its nowhere near as bad as terran domination in the last 2 years
Probably because no one wants to watch this game slowly die to obvious balance issues.
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I can see a combination of reduced AoE, no effect on Motherships and supply up to 3, most of these other nerfs are bad ideas or just too strong of a nerf (like no damage or no immobilization). Otherwise, a better way for other races to counter them would be good too.
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Why do people cry about the infestor so much.
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I'd like to see fungal changed to 50% slow and cast as a projectile, and also see IT energy cost doubled. I think neural is fine as it is. Friendly fire would also be good, it's pretty anomalous that you can storm/EMP/seeker missile your own stuff but fungal doesn't do the same. A smaller unit size to increase vulnerability to EMP is also a good idea. Ever since Blizzard over-nerfed snipe, the ghost has lost all utility against hive tech units and getting high numbers to combat high infestor numbers is a bad investment.
Coupled with this nerf I'd like to see hydra cost and DPS reduced to see if that might help it find a place in matchups outside of ZvZ.
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On November 09 2012 05:13 fighter2_40 wrote:
Make fungal growth a combination of plague and ensnare from broodwar (they were both projectiles). Decrease DPS, no effect on protoss shields, non lethal. Make effects last longer, more DOT not sudden DPS
Pretty sure plague was not a projectile. Ensnare was.
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EPT
