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On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote:
People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly.
It is not their business to ask for any credentials of Fuzer's lawyer. Fuzer has signed an NDA that already prevents him from leaking the contract so if Fuzer went and posted it around the internet MoW could take legal action against him. Fuzer should have every right to get advice about the contract.
EDIT: You can actually read it in the OP that Fuzer had 4 days to check the contract with his lawyer and two of these days were during a weekend. So basically they gave him two working days to do it...
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On September 14 2012 10:56 Lallis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote:
People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly. It is not their business to ask for any credentials of Fuzer's lawyer. Fuzer has signed an NDA that already prevents him from leaking the contract so if Fuzer went and posted it around the internet MoW could take legal action against him. Fuzer should have every right to get advice about the contract. EDIT: You can actually read it in the OP that Fuzer had 4 days to check the contract with his lawyer and two of these days were during a weekend. So basically they gave him two working days to do it...
And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that.
Regardless, it's still not THAT big of a deal. Some semi-pro lost his rent money and had to eat fries. Oh yeah and he was asked to sign a NDA that prohibited him from starting a gaming house, which he doesn't have the resources or competence to do anyway.
This issue has now run its course, as Panthae stated. There's nothing more to be said, both sides have moved on and so should we.
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On September 14 2012 05:31 EuLoGy[kTw] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 05:04 dacimvrl wrote:On September 14 2012 05:01 EuLoGy[kTw] wrote:On September 14 2012 04:59 dacimvrl wrote:On September 14 2012 04:54 EuLoGy[kTw] wrote:On September 14 2012 04:51 dacimvrl wrote:On September 14 2012 04:47 ~Maverick~ wrote:On September 14 2012 04:45 dacimvrl wrote:On September 14 2012 04:37 Roman666 wrote:On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote:
(Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss". I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off. It like: 1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here. except for 1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money. Now that I provided the actual context, better? Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in. or they should have just sent Fuzer a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer. How's that even hard? How? Why does MoW even want Fuzer's lawyer's credentials or whatever? What does it even concern them? Let's just omit all that and post pictures of kittens  Or, you can just not give random people money. You know? It's kind of standard in life. Would you just give some random guy $500? No, but that's what fuzer did. Never signed the contract, so this is his problem. He's the one who fucked up. Sneaky or not, MoW>fuzer. except for MoW isn't a random someone, they've had notable community figures visiting their house, notable endorsements such as Razer, Twitch...etc. With all those "credentials", you would expect some decency, honesty, and some ethics.....or not lol. Not even sneaky, this is shady, unethical business practice at best. I'd suggest you to watch DarkForce's video response or read what FXOBoSs has to say so you can understand the whole issue better. No, I understand it. Just people acting stupid to other people acting stupid. Both sides here are pretty stupid. They both fucked up, I get that they aren't some random somebody. But holy fuck, don't send them money in the first place without a contract, that shit is shady. No idea why people are defending fuzer anyways No you don't understand it.. Did you even read the part where Fuzer requested a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer, but it was denied by MoW? and MoW, for some reason wanted to see the lawyer's credentials? IMO, wanting a lawyer to go through your contract before signing it isn't stupid at all. hindsight is 20/20, but it doesn't change the fact that MoW's contract is full of shit and the Boss guy is a very shady individual..etc. Yes, I do understand it. I read it, still his fault. I'm sorry that fuzer isn't actually a smart person. He's an idiot. The end. Let me add some more, he sent them money before a contract. That's all that needs to be said here.
Not true sir. They made a verbal contract to pay the rent per month. Sry but you are clearly wrong. And Fuzer paid in full on time. WOW, I just destroyed your post.
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On September 14 2012 11:18 Doodsmack wrote:
And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that.
Fuzer is not fluent in English, and as such he couldn't actually guarantee that all the "amendments" were exactly as they said.
And saying you don't need a lawyer to look over a contract is stupid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a lawyer to review a contract before you sign, and in many cases it's recommended.
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Canada1007 Posts
On September 14 2012 01:59 TAMinator wrote:Poll: Was posting the kitten pictures a redeeming factor?No (188) 89% Yes (20) 9% I don't know (4) 2% 212 total votes Your vote: Was posting the kitten pictures a redeeming factor? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): I don't know
Seriously MoW, what the hell are you trying to pull with this?
This whole drama shows how unprofessional your organization is. You clearly need to work on this, because something like this never happen, it is really shady. Then you decide to wrap up your post like this? Ridiculous.
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On September 14 2012 11:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 11:18 Doodsmack wrote:
And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that. Fuzer is not fluent in English, and as such he couldn't actually guarantee that all the "amendments" were exactly as they said. And saying you don't need a lawyer to look over a contract is stupid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a lawyer to review a contract before you sign, and in many cases it's recommended.
Knew I should have only said "this issue has run its course" because otherwise someone will just carry on the argument lol...
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On September 14 2012 11:18 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 10:56 Lallis wrote:On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote:
People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly. It is not their business to ask for any credentials of Fuzer's lawyer. Fuzer has signed an NDA that already prevents him from leaking the contract so if Fuzer went and posted it around the internet MoW could take legal action against him. Fuzer should have every right to get advice about the contract. EDIT: You can actually read it in the OP that Fuzer had 4 days to check the contract with his lawyer and two of these days were during a weekend. So basically they gave him two working days to do it... And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that. Regardless, it's still not THAT big of a deal. Some semi-pro lost his rent money and had to eat fries. Oh yeah and he was asked to sign a NDA that prohibited him from starting a gaming house, which he doesn't have the resources or competence to do anyway. This issue has now run its course, as Panthae stated. There's nothing more to be said, both sides have moved on and so should we.
An NDA is not the same as an NCC. The NCC was a part of the contract which Fuzer never signed but the NDA is something you sign before you see the contract where you agree that you won't talk about the contract to a third party. You however have every right to show it to your lawyer (who I guess will also have to sign the NDA).
And where did you get the idea Fuzer had been negotiating the contract for a full month?
As I think I replied to you before, there are serious issues considering the ethics and legitimacy of the MoW business and yet you keep saying that it is Fuzer who is unprofessional when he exposes those issues. While you would rather avoid the drama because you are afraid someone will go crying to sponsors once again, it might hurts eSports a lot more if we don't investigate issues like this because there is a chance the MoW business is actually even being run with illegal or just abusive contracts with the intent of actually benefiting from the youth of the scene and business related to it. Things like this have happened many times before and there have been many liars in the eSports scene who only try to abuse it and the only way to get rid of all that shit is by exposing it.
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On September 14 2012 11:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 11:18 Doodsmack wrote:
And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that. Fuzer is not fluent in English, and as such he couldn't actually guarantee that all the "amendments" were exactly as they said. And saying you don't need a lawyer to look over a contract is stupid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a lawyer to review a contract before you sign, and in many cases it's recommended.
If its for something important, it should be reviewed by a lawyer. I've had stuff on contracts that I've never noticed stating things like "if you get kicked out of this location, the landlord gets to keep all your stuff" in really roundbout ways.
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On September 14 2012 11:31 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 11:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:On September 14 2012 11:18 Doodsmack wrote:
And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that. Fuzer is not fluent in English, and as such he couldn't actually guarantee that all the "amendments" were exactly as they said. And saying you don't need a lawyer to look over a contract is stupid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a lawyer to review a contract before you sign, and in many cases it's recommended. Knew I should have only said "this issue has run its course" because otherwise someone will just carry on the argument lol...
As quite a few people have stated, and quite a few people have ignored, the contract is irrelevant, and MoW is an idiot for actually accepting his payment for letting him stay in the house (which by legal definition is a contract. Offer/Acceptance/Comsideration). He then asks him to sign a contract AFTER he accepts payment, which actually Fuzer actually has absolutely no obligation to sign. You don't negotiate a contract after you pay, because if you did, people can just make things up, and the seller will always have power over the consumer, which is what the Polish guy wanted. There's actually a case that is probably relevant to this, where a woman lost an item a hotel, and the hotel management didn't want to accept responsibility because they had a sign in the hotel room stating they they weren't liable for lost items, but she won the case because she was only made aware of that fact after she paid.
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Not to sound like a pompous SOAB but as a successful business man I can confidently say these statements, behaviors, & situations is a spitting image of the major issue plaguing the growth of esports, professionalism. Best of luck MOW, Fuzer, LOL MLG summer championship finals teams (list goes on & on), but the impacts of behaviors like this go soooo far beyond your comprehensions. I'm 32 years old, recieved my first NES in '86, & have always had gaming a part of my life. It's a shame people blessed with such skill in an amazing & fun hobby/professions/activity have no respect or appreciation for how childish acticities truly hold this industry back.
Props to those teams, houses, players, businessmen who appreciate what they have & strive to grow such an amazing & rewarding topic like gaming into the "sport" it should be considered. Your tact & professionalism is appreciated by us all. Keep it up
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![[image loading]](http://images.lazygamer.net/2012/08/SouthParkS14E11Coon2HindsightUncensored.avi_snapshot_12.26_2012.08.23_10.33.49.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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At least MoW admitted their mistake.
Its ok MoW, people make mistakes. Dont give up and keep going in your journey to be a top pro team!
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"I honestly can't believe how many people like the kittens part of the post? Is this serious? They're trying to post a formal defense for themselves and they post pictures of fucking cats at the end of it?"
well the message is obvious:
They are NOT trying to post a formal defence because they probably and rightfully find this whole situation rediculously blown out of proportion.
So they add some kittens to help people see things in a bit broader perspective, and to show that this is not the end of the world.
That chat log does not make the "boss" look good btw to say the least but i guess there already has been a huge amount of arguing going on before he started acting like a jerk,maybe he was just full of it and had enough of it,i dont know.
Such chat logs are difficult to judge without the context and everything said before and can be quiet misleading.
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On September 14 2012 11:46 Lallis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 11:18 Doodsmack wrote:On September 14 2012 10:56 Lallis wrote:On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote:
People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly. It is not their business to ask for any credentials of Fuzer's lawyer. Fuzer has signed an NDA that already prevents him from leaking the contract so if Fuzer went and posted it around the internet MoW could take legal action against him. Fuzer should have every right to get advice about the contract. EDIT: You can actually read it in the OP that Fuzer had 4 days to check the contract with his lawyer and two of these days were during a weekend. So basically they gave him two working days to do it... And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that. Regardless, it's still not THAT big of a deal. Some semi-pro lost his rent money and had to eat fries. Oh yeah and he was asked to sign a NDA that prohibited him from starting a gaming house, which he doesn't have the resources or competence to do anyway. This issue has now run its course, as Panthae stated. There's nothing more to be said, both sides have moved on and so should we. An NDA is not the same as an NCC. The NCC was a part of the contract which Fuzer never signed but the NDA is something you sign before you see the contract where you agree that you won't talk about the contract to a third party. You however have every right to show it to your lawyer (who I guess will also have to sign the NDA). And where did you get the idea Fuzer had been negotiating the contract for a full month?As I think I replied to you before, there are serious issues considering the ethics and legitimacy of the MoW business and yet you keep saying that it is Fuzer who is unprofessional when he exposes those issues. While you would rather avoid the drama because you are afraid someone will go crying to sponsors once again, it might hurts eSports a lot more if we don't investigate issues like this because there is a chance the MoW business is actually even being run with illegal or just abusive contracts with the intent of actually benefiting from the youth of the scene and business related to it. Things like this have happened many times before and there have been many liars in the eSports scene who only try to abuse it and the only way to get rid of all that shit is by exposing it.
I don't know maybe the OP? Sounds like you're a good example of an uninformed community "investigating" this issue lol. I guess an esports investigation consists of repeating hearsay on internet forums and perpetuating threads full of uninformed trolls arguing back and forth.
Yeah serious issues and drama here everyone, we better present cogent arguments as to why MoW lacks "ethics and legitimacy". My god this poor child had to eat fries 3x a week! And *gasp* got woken up at 4 am! MoW tried to get him to sign a malicious contract that they specifically negotiated with the original house guests (who were all agreeable to it)! It's almost like they're trying to exploit children into slave labor here. That certainly explains why all the other guests have said that MoW has responded well to their (private) criticism and feedback. And that they're grateful for MoW and they've definitely improved as players.
LOL such little drama queens you guys are...sorry but you have nothing new or insightful to say after nearly 150 pages of posts on this issue. The issue has been talked to death so please, join me in playing some SC2 .
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On September 14 2012 12:36 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 11:46 Lallis wrote:On September 14 2012 11:18 Doodsmack wrote:On September 14 2012 10:56 Lallis wrote:On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote:
People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly. It is not their business to ask for any credentials of Fuzer's lawyer. Fuzer has signed an NDA that already prevents him from leaking the contract so if Fuzer went and posted it around the internet MoW could take legal action against him. Fuzer should have every right to get advice about the contract. EDIT: You can actually read it in the OP that Fuzer had 4 days to check the contract with his lawyer and two of these days were during a weekend. So basically they gave him two working days to do it... And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that. Regardless, it's still not THAT big of a deal. Some semi-pro lost his rent money and had to eat fries. Oh yeah and he was asked to sign a NDA that prohibited him from starting a gaming house, which he doesn't have the resources or competence to do anyway. This issue has now run its course, as Panthae stated. There's nothing more to be said, both sides have moved on and so should we. An NDA is not the same as an NCC. The NCC was a part of the contract which Fuzer never signed but the NDA is something you sign before you see the contract where you agree that you won't talk about the contract to a third party. You however have every right to show it to your lawyer (who I guess will also have to sign the NDA). And where did you get the idea Fuzer had been negotiating the contract for a full month?As I think I replied to you before, there are serious issues considering the ethics and legitimacy of the MoW business and yet you keep saying that it is Fuzer who is unprofessional when he exposes those issues. While you would rather avoid the drama because you are afraid someone will go crying to sponsors once again, it might hurts eSports a lot more if we don't investigate issues like this because there is a chance the MoW business is actually even being run with illegal or just abusive contracts with the intent of actually benefiting from the youth of the scene and business related to it. Things like this have happened many times before and there have been many liars in the eSports scene who only try to abuse it and the only way to get rid of all that shit is by exposing it. I don't know maybe the OP? Sounds like you're a good example of an uninformed community "investigating" this issue lol. I guess an esports investigation consists of repeating hearsay on internet forums and perpetuating threads full of uninformed trolls arguing back and forth. Yeah serious issues and drama here everyone, we better present cogent arguments as to why MoW lacks "ethics and legitimacy". My god this poor child had to eat fries 3x a week! And *gasp* got woken up at 4 am! MoW tried to get him to sign a malicious contract that they specifically negotiated with the original house guests (who were all agreeable to it)! It's almost like they're trying to exploit children into slave labor here. That certainly explains why all the other guests have said that MoW has responded well to their (private) criticism and feedback. And that they're grateful for MoW and they've definitely improved as players. LOL such little drama queens you guys are...sorry but you have nothing new or insightful to say after nearly 150 pages of posts on this issue. The issue has been talked to death so please, join me in playing some SC2 .
It is unethical business practice to get someone to sign a contract after payment. The testimonials have absolutely no relevance in this situation, and neither do witnesses of character.
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Good to hear that Ministry Of Win admits that they were the ones that fucked up.
Always sign a contract where both parties are clear about the deal BEFORE DOING ANYTHING. If you want to have a trial period to ship people over to let them experience it before making up their minds then HAVE A CONTRACT FOR THAT. Make them sign something that states any limitations of the trial period, like the person has to make up his mind within 20 days or he has to leave, etc etc. Whatever the case, Make it perfectly clear in a legal binding way.
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On September 14 2012 12:36 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 11:46 Lallis wrote:On September 14 2012 11:18 Doodsmack wrote:On September 14 2012 10:56 Lallis wrote:On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote:
People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly. It is not their business to ask for any credentials of Fuzer's lawyer. Fuzer has signed an NDA that already prevents him from leaking the contract so if Fuzer went and posted it around the internet MoW could take legal action against him. Fuzer should have every right to get advice about the contract. EDIT: You can actually read it in the OP that Fuzer had 4 days to check the contract with his lawyer and two of these days were during a weekend. So basically they gave him two working days to do it... And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that. Regardless, it's still not THAT big of a deal. Some semi-pro lost his rent money and had to eat fries. Oh yeah and he was asked to sign a NDA that prohibited him from starting a gaming house, which he doesn't have the resources or competence to do anyway. This issue has now run its course, as Panthae stated. There's nothing more to be said, both sides have moved on and so should we. An NDA is not the same as an NCC. The NCC was a part of the contract which Fuzer never signed but the NDA is something you sign before you see the contract where you agree that you won't talk about the contract to a third party. You however have every right to show it to your lawyer (who I guess will also have to sign the NDA). And where did you get the idea Fuzer had been negotiating the contract for a full month?As I think I replied to you before, there are serious issues considering the ethics and legitimacy of the MoW business and yet you keep saying that it is Fuzer who is unprofessional when he exposes those issues. While you would rather avoid the drama because you are afraid someone will go crying to sponsors once again, it might hurts eSports a lot more if we don't investigate issues like this because there is a chance the MoW business is actually even being run with illegal or just abusive contracts with the intent of actually benefiting from the youth of the scene and business related to it. Things like this have happened many times before and there have been many liars in the eSports scene who only try to abuse it and the only way to get rid of all that shit is by exposing it. I don't know maybe the OP? Sounds like you're a good example of an uninformed community "investigating" this issue lol. I guess an esports investigation consists of repeating hearsay on internet forums and perpetuating threads full of uninformed trolls arguing back and forth. Yeah serious issues and drama here everyone, we better present cogent arguments as to why MoW lacks "ethics and legitimacy". My god this poor child had to eat fries 3x a week! And *gasp* got woken up at 4 am! MoW tried to get him to sign a malicious contract that they specifically negotiated with the original house guests (who were all agreeable to it)! It's almost like they're trying to exploit children into slave labor here. That certainly explains why all the other guests have said that MoW has responded well to their (private) criticism and feedback. And that they're grateful for MoW and they've definitely improved as players. LOL such little drama queens you guys are...sorry but you have nothing new or insightful to say after nearly 150 pages of posts on this issue. The issue has been talked to death so please, join me in playing some SC2 .
Who the fuck are you to claim that I am an uninformed community member? You don't know anything about who I am. For all you know I could be Fuzer's fucking mom. I have read all the facts given by both sides and even if I was Fuzer's mom and knew more, you wouldn't have to know it.
The OP says that they provided Fuzer with the contract "soon after", so who are you to tell us that Fuzer had it for the whole month when that is not what was stated? You are just full of bullshit man.
Even if you don't think those acts you stated were not "unethical or illegitimate", what I find quite disturbing in your ethics is that you don't find attempt of bribery an unethical or illegitimate act. It is a fact that the MoW boss tried to bribe Fuzer.
I think you should consult a doctor to get your head checked.
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pretty sure nothing they said vindicates them either 1) refunding Fuzer for time not stayed, or 2) allowing him to stay until the time he paid for is over.
Sounds still iffy... especially if they have to make a contract with each individual person. That's weird. I feel like this guy is weird and creepy and especially with the cats...just... creepy.
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If Fuzer first said "give me the money or I'll go public", it's kind of an exaggeration to call it a bribe. It's a response to a threat, and even if you think the threat is perfectly justified, the act of giving in isnt a bribe. That's just another example of you dramatizing things and lol @ you saying "what I find quite disturbing in your ethics". This issue is such small potatoes and even if MoW had been "unethical" in this case, I wouldn't give a flying fuck because the other players haven't had the same problem. Just give it a rest bud.
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This was actually a really well written statement and made sense of the whole situation. It all seems fairly reasonable. The previous excuse for a press release was an epic failure, that actually did not address any of the issues brought to light by Fuzer. The whole ordeal seems kind of like a breakdown in communication and a total lack of trust by both parties involved trying to protect their own interest. Which is entirely understandable.
The unfortunate part is that they both tried to play hardball at the same time and took totally unreasonable approaches to both courses of action. I'm referring to the reluctance to pay Fuzer back and the complete failure of Fuzer to communicate his concerns and then overreacting and trying to tarnish MoW's reputation. I think most people would agree that the image for both parties involved has suffered. Fuzer now comes off as an immature child, while MoWs clean image has been brought into question.
What did we learn from this? Don't jump to conclusions next time and try to settle matters in civilized fashion, rather than bringing the public into this and damaging both parties. I think this whole esports business getting solved over Skype is really really stupid. I think people need to actually talk face to face or in some manner other than written elctronic form. How many more situations like this will we need to see before people start taking this stuff seriously and acting on a professional matter.
Esports is a business, and should be handled in a professional manner. No offense, but the kittens really didn't need to be there, and do nothing for you other than derail a perfectly succinct and rational explanation. This lack of professionalism is what started this shit in the first place. Next time, negotiate, get something both parties agree upon signed and don't hand over money or anything else until this is taken care of.
Enough of this cat and mouse, "how much can I get," bullshit. Get your business straight and don't take this circuitous, fine print, loophole contract shit. A contract should be cut and dry and only contain what is pertinent to the agreement. Nothing else should be in there. Fix your shit.
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EPT
