In response to the Team Liquid forum post by Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen and the public debate surrounding it, we, the Ministry of Win, would like to shed some light on the facts regarding the matter at hand.
With utmost sadness we have observed some of the details being released, at times partial and without proper context. This should have not happened under no circumstances and we fully acknowledge our managemental shortcomings in that regard. There have been words said in the heat of the moment unbecoming to what we aspire to be, and certainly below the required standards that we would like to set for ourselves as a part of the e-sport community.
There are several concerns that have been pointed out that we would like to address below.
1. First and foremost Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen or any other guest of the house has not been, or will be stopped from pursuing a professional e-sport carrier beyond the Ministry of Win by means of a legal document or a verbal agreement. Players absolutely can and will join teams, pro-houses, will also participate in tournaments and other e-sport ventures.
2. Ministry of Win does not enforce on players the amount of hours they have to stream. It is a part of a business contract and both parties negotiate an agreement. We understand that players have come to the house for the sole purpose of perfecting their skills and thus we do not exact the agreed hours to the last detail. Most players view streaming as a key income source for themselves and so we give them the best opportunity to profit from it. Thanks to the strategic partnership between the Ministry of Win and Twitch.tv the CPM ratio is superior to that of an individual streaming on one’s own. Furthermore the players that had no Twitch.tv partnership prior to joining the house obtain a possibility to start monetizing their exposure instantly omitting the regular Twitch.tv partnership acquireing process.
3. The fee of 2 500 PLN (circa €600 or $785) is charged up front for full months of all inclusive stay in the house. This is the first consideration the players are presented with before coming to the house. Please note that the Ministry of Win is not a hotel thus all operations, including guest departures and arrivals, food and supply purchases, etc..., are planned and partially executed at least a month ahead with accordance to the players stay roster.
4. We are aware of the issues regarding food, that the players have risen and are looking to resolve them as soon as possible. Since the house has not yet been fully manned with players with frequent changes the provisioning schedule was the hardest to keep up to date.
Since the public has been exposed only to the last and most fierce statements we feel compelled to put them into perspective and disclosing the bigger story. As correctly identified by many members of the public, the key error on our part was allowing Samuli to come to the house before agreeing together on all the fine parts of the contract and signing it.
Samuli expressed his interest in joining the Ministry of Win. In order to meet his expectations we decided to invite him in and let him experience the house-life first hand, so that he could make a more educated decision with regards to the contract. A monthly fee of 2 500 PLN has been established, paid up front each month, which has been delivered in cash by Samuli on arrival to the house. Soon after the Ministry of Win contract has been presented to him negotiations and consultations began.
Finally all the amendments proposed by Samuli have been fully incorporated into the contract and the final version has been submitted for his approval on Saturday the 8th. By that time the second month payment has already been concluded. Samuli refused to sign the agreed contract containing his amendments and requested another consultation period.
This has been received as a stalling tactics and brought unnecessary and unprofessional tension to the conversation, which in retrospect could have been avoided especially on our side. Leading a company revolving around people requires unwavering patience and calm especially in tense situations and this is a major lesson for us in all our future dealings. Words unbefitting a gentleman have been said, fences have not been mended and as a result on Tuesday the 11th Samuli has been asked to either sign the contract or leave until 22:00. Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
In conclusion, the Ministry of Win would like to apologize the whole e-sport community, the players, the viewers, everyone related to the Starcraft 2 scene and especially we apologize to Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen. Mistakes have been made and unfortunately time cannot be turned back. We are aware that as professionals, we should not let emotions take control over us and the whole situation should not have happened in the first place. After all we are here to support and help e-sports grow.
We are making an effort to prevent such a situation from ever happening again. A revised wording of the contract is being developed and a more clear contractual procedure devised. We hope that other players will benefit from existance of our house and our e-sport venture will help advance their careers. Virgil said “Hard work conquers all” — so we will do our best to make it happen.
To compensate the community more than one hundred pages of drama on the Team Liquid forum and numerous further posts all around the Internet, please take comfort in those quite lovely kittens photos.
Pretty much as expected. The offer of a refund was a good move and it sounds like a poor decision by both sides. This should be a lesson to all, do not put 10 year terms into your contracts for any reason. It sends the wrong message and makes all the other terms seem overly agressive. It is also not enforcable and unreasonable.
Also, the kittens are a critical part of the argument.
Very professional until the Kitten posts, but I honestly can't fault anyone for posting kittens.
I think this is a huge acknowledgement of shortcomings and showing a desire to fix things. I also think that we should be aware as a community that many of us took Fuzer's explanation of the situation at face value, and I urge the community to look at this post similarly, for the sake of consistency if nothing else.
It's a crappy situation in general, and if both parties grow into better members of the community because of it then maybe it would have been worthwhile to keep it from happening in the future.
Mistakes are made, people goof. We all have our opinions, but this will be a good test of the community's nature to see where it leads from this point on.
I will say one thing very, VERY strongly, however. I said it in the previous thread when I was defending MoW, and I'll say it again. Please please please work on Public Relations. A lot of this could have been avoided with a finger better placed on the pulse of the community.
a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
What an underhanded way to put it. This statement doesn't refute that you at first REFUSED to pay the guy back and then after being threatened offered to refund the cash.
I don't understand why this thread is so poorly recieved. It seems like Fuzer had all the time in the world to revise his contract and only waited until he was out of time to actually ask for a consultation. On top of that, he didn't seem to understand any of the terms he was agreeing to or the fact that he was paying by month BECAUSE he hadn't yet signed a contract agreeing to the flat fee, and his experience prior to that was actually designed as more of a tour/flavor of the experience to help sway his decision in a more timely manner (which it clearly didn't)
All for ministry of win on this one. You guys don't need your reputation tarnished over this. People need to make sure they take care of their shit before sitting down to play every day.
1. First and foremost Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen or any other guest of the house has not been, or will be stopped from pursuing a professional e-sport carrier beyond the Ministry of Win by means of a legal document or a verbal agreement. Players absolutely can and will join teams, pro-houses, will also participate in tournaments and other e-sport ventures.
2. Ministry of Win does not enforce on players the amount of hours they have to stream. It is a part of a business contract and both parties negotiate an agreement. We understand that players have come to the house for the sole purpose of perfecting their skills and thus we do not exact the agreed hours to the last detail. Most players view streaming as a key income source for themselves and so we give them the best opportunity to profit from it. Thanks to the strategic partnership between the Ministry of Win and Twitch.tv the CPM ratio is superior to that of an individual streaming on one’s own. Furthermore the players that had no Twitch.tv partnership prior to joining the house obtain a possibility to start monetizing their exposure instantly omitting the regular Twitch.tv partnership acquireing process.
But then were does these misunderstandings stem from? Why had Fuzer the impressions he voiced in his thread? And why is it such a problem to publish the contract so we can read it up for ourself? And I don't like kittens in a thread which should bring light into serious questions. It just seems . . . unprofessional.
a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
What an underhanded way to put it. This statement doesn't refute that you at first REFUSED to pay the guy back and then after being threatened offered to refund the cash.
Yeah, this is what just makes me furious. The fact that they offered to pay only AFTER fuzer decided to go public is the most disgusting thing.
On September 14 2012 01:26 Stropheum wrote: I don't understand why this thread is so poorly recieved. It seems like Fuzer had all the time in the world to revise his contract and only waited until he was out of time to actually ask for a consultation. On top of that, he didn't seem to understand any of the terms he was agreeing to or the fact that he was paying by month BECAUSE he hadn't yet signed a contract agreeing to the flat fee, and his experience prior to that was actually designed as more of a tour/flavor of the experience to help sway his decision in a more timely manner (which it clearly didn't)
All for ministry of win on this one. You guys don't need your reputation tarnished over this. People need to make sure they take care of their shit before sitting down to play every day.
I don't quite understand why they didn't set the deadline to the end of the first month but took the second payment instead and kicked him halfway through the second month? If he paid/they allowed him to pay for the second month kick him after the second month if he still stalls over the contract.
a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
What an underhanded way to put it. This statement doesn't refute that you at first REFUSED to pay the guy back and then after being threatened offered to refund the cash.
This.
Everything else sounds good though. Lesson learned. If not, pitchforks, sponsor-emails....you know the drill.
Why would you put streaming requirements in the contract if you don't care if they do it or not? It sounds like the only reason you put anything about streaming in the contract was so you would be guaranteed part of the money if they do decide to do it.
I like this statement. I think it was the right thing to say and addressed the issue, explained what had occurred and admitted that mistakes had been made, in particular the negotiation with Fuzer. If only this statement had been the one issued yesterday by MoW, then a lot of angst and drama could have been avoided. Life is a learning experience for us all. Identifying and acknowledging mistakes is important in order to avoid repeating them moving forward.
Given your statement and the testimony by players such as Snute who have experienced the MoW House, I feel that MoW House is actually very good for the Foreign SC2 scene and thus has my support in it's efforts to improve the players skills. Fuzer had an issue but hopefully that can now be resolved and people can move on. GL HF
Well, little hic'ups like this are bound to happen. The number of people on the whole continent with proper experience in handling e-sports ventures can be counted on the fingers of one or two hands.
As humans we all make mistakes, the important thing is that we learn from them. Also as humans, we all deserve a second chance, this goes for both the organisation and player involved.
Ministry of Win seems to just be immature all over, making the time at the house the player's responsibility...Making the players having to worry about paying the house for rent each month instead of focusing purely on the game of what a gaming house should be. I dunno, I just don't like the idea of the place but I can see why others would like to stay at it...If they use healthier food that is though.
On September 14 2012 01:28 ROOTT1 wrote: lol felines are so noobie, theyre too unloyal this is where its at
Couldn't agree more.
On a serious note, we really need to know whether or not the refund was offered before or after the first leak of the story, this is a crucial point.
"Back in finland, time to start writing a story how MoW house stealed my money " - Fuzersc2 facebook somewhere around 4PM EEST. The Skype log shows how MoW asked for Fuzer's account number at 5:15PM EEST.
2. Ministry of Win does not enforce on players the amount of hours they have to stream. It is a part of a business contract and both parties negotiate an agreement. We understand that players have come to the house for the sole purpose of perfecting their skills and thus we do not exact the agreed hours to the last detail. Most players view streaming as a key income source for themselves and so we give them the best opportunity to profit from it. Thanks to the strategic partnership between the Ministry of Win and Twitch.tv the CPM ratio is superior to that of an individual streaming on one’s own. Furthermore the players that had no Twitch.tv partnership prior to joining the house obtain a possibility to start monetizing their exposure instantly omitting the regular Twitch.tv partnership acquireing process.
If you don't enforce it, why do you put it in the business contract, it seems very detailed in the contract. Honestly speaking Fuzer game pretty hard evidence with his Skype logs and all you guys have been doing is derailing the accusations.
I find it so annoying how people are getting misled and defending them on their 'half-truths'. WE OFFERED HIM A FULL REFUND WHICH HE DECLINED, Fuzer already showed skype logs that prove that the 'Boss' didn't want to give him his money back, until he threatened to go public.
I think FXOBoss's post in the other thread, wherever it is, brings up a lot of good points:
1) You should not BOTH charge people to live there AND charge them a portion of their streaming, it should be either-or.
2) You should refund Fuzer's partial payment regardless of his "screw you i'm going public" statements, its the only way to run a business.
3) As you yourself said, never do anything without a signed contract
His entire post, quoted from the other thread:
On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote: I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients. Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project. The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment.
a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
What an underhanded way to put it. This statement doesn't refute that you at first REFUSED to pay the guy back and then after being threatened offered to refund the cash.
I'm laughing at all the people that are "forgiving" MoW when this still went on. Aweeee! Some guy posts a few cat pictures and thats all it takes to win you guys over even thought they're underhanded businessmen and probably (based on the skype chat) would have ripped fuzer off completely had fuzer had no proof or threats.
a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
What an underhanded way to put it. This statement doesn't refute that you at first REFUSED to pay the guy back and then after being threatened offered to refund the cash.
This.
Everything else sounds good though. Lesson learned. If not, pitchforks, sponsor-emails....you know the drill.
Pitchforks, yes, sponsor emails, please no. Don't start killing esports over a fairly trivial matter. There are very few people around with proper experience in handling esports ventures. MoW is a great concept and should be allowed to thrive. Live and let live..
Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
Oh my god. I can't stand the way you handled things, your shady as fuck boss (who should be fired asap), the contracts, the press releases and statements that did not address the issue yesterday and the way you depict Fuzer as more in the wrong than you, that you asked for a license to prove fuzer has a lawyer, that you wouldn't pay back a negligible amount of money in a power/ego move, the patronizing of the community like we're idiots with kitten pictures and interviews that have nothing to do with the conflict, the use of media/propaganda, the taking advantage of non well known players, your lack of adhering to the dietary plan you promised, the amount of you are compensated vs the amount spent on the players, the way in which you communicated threats of not paying via skype chat because it was untraceable, the streaming hours, just your overall sense/way of handling this whole situation has been utterly despicable. I've never boycotted before, but I am.
Also, I encourage an audit of the organization to see how clean an operation they run.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
Samuli refused to sign the agreed contract containing his amendments and requested another consultation period.
This has been received as a stalling tactics and brought unnecessary and unprofessional tension to the conversation
. lol what? The guy already paid you, how could taking time to make sure he fully understood the contract be stalling?
Lol yep, I don't know the full conversation so I don't know the context in which Fuzer gave the money, but I think maybe that will clear things up. If it was something like MoW asking Fuzer if he wants to stay at their house, Fuzer agrees over skype and pays him, and only after the payment does MoW ask to sign a contract, technically those are actually two different agreements altogether.
On September 14 2012 01:28 Musicus wrote: Is it true you only offered the refund once Fuzer threatened to inform the public?
This is true, dates and chat logs confirm the timing of Fuzer's post on Facebook in coordination with the Skype conversation.
So much I want to say on this issue but I will bite my tongue for many a reason.
Such a shame that people can't speak their mind freely, at least not without cosequences it seems. Maybe on day when it's all forgotten some e-sports personality will write a book .
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
On September 14 2012 01:14 MinistryOfWin wrote: Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
Such a nice way to put it yet we have proof this isn't the way it went down... You were being a huge douche to him saying you wouldn't pay him back anything. Then suddenly, when he goes public with this, you make the offer.
And it's not like you can deny any of it, he pasted the frickin convo.
I'm getting fed up with shitty ass business deals fucking up people of the community. If you want to help esports how bout you get your shit straight and quit looking so damn amateur. (Like putting kitty pics in your official statement.... I for one find it quite insulting.)
Also would've liked a statement regarding boss & friends being noisy/drunk latenight, at the very least its a better statement than the first one they put out, well done.
2. Ministry of Win does not enforce on players the amount of hours they have to stream. It is a part of a business contract and both parties negotiate an agreement. We understand that players have come to the house for the sole purpose of perfecting their skills and thus we do not exact the agreed hours to the last detail. Most players view streaming as a key income source for themselves and so we give them the best opportunity to profit from it. Thanks to the strategic partnership between the Ministry of Win and Twitch.tv the CPM ratio is superior to that of an individual streaming on one’s own. Furthermore the players that had no Twitch.tv partnership prior to joining the house obtain a possibility to start monetizing their exposure instantly omitting the regular Twitch.tv partnership acquireing process.
If you don't enforce it, why do you put it in the business contract, it seems very detailed in the contract. Honestly speaking Fuzer game pretty hard evidence with his Skype logs and all you guys have been doing is derailing the accusations.
I find it so annoying how people are getting misled and defending them on their 'half-truths'. WE OFFERED HIM A FULL REFUND WHICH HE DECLINED, Fuzer already showed skype logs that prove that the 'Boss' didn't want to give him his money back, until he threatened to go public.
You should just take that as a comment that was made in anger that "Boss" thought better of after the fact. People say/type a lot off stuff in the heat of the moment and take it back later on. People are allowed to say dumb stuff and then take it back when they think about, even in the business world.
Also, you don't have to enforce every section of a contract to the letter. Contracts are an understanding of what is expected of each party. They are not laws and can be flexable(laws can also be flexable). But you don't put terms like "We expect players to stream around 150 hours a month" in a contract.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
Oh be quiet please. If you're going to try and argue that attempting to rip someone off after they've traveled to your home doesn't make you a bad person than good luck buddy.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
The statements are irrelevant to the situation at hand. This is a matter between the head of MoW and Fuzer, not the house itself.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
Agreed. Everyone else in the house appears to be thrilled that it is there. Fuzer seems to be the only guy who couldn't make it work and is throwing a fit because he had to leave. At the end of the day, this is all about a less than one months rent.
The whole MoW thing is kind of weird when you think about it, how do they enforce their rules? like what if I paid to go there, signed a contract etc and then acted like a douche, that situation could get ugly fast.
MoW are relying on people acting professionally but when you're dealing with young males who may not have lived away from home before then shit can hit the fan, like situations like this, although this was caused because he didn't sign the contract but still, wouldn't be surprised if more shit like this happens to them.
Instead of 5 hours of streaming, it should be 5 hours of actual coaching and practicing with players in house. This is like going to play with the Lakers but first having to practice street ball with the neighborhood kids until you don't like basketball anymore before you are allowed to eat a french fried meatball and lift your shy head up to eye a pro gamer to your direct left. BOO!
On September 13 2012 12:29 FXOBoSs wrote: I didn't read all the posts. But just going to go over a few things in this situation.
Firstly, a 10 yr non competition clause would never be able to be executed. Its kind of a joke really. 2 years is hard enough to enforce. Non comp, is standard but usually only is enforced if you steal someones clients. Preventing someone from building a game house? Did you invent the gaming house mentality? Brb, sending the Koreans to sue you for stealing their ideas.. Please note I am being sarcastic.
The contract is a typical eastern european contract (no racism emplied). Its a power culture, and the contract is there to show power. Its normal, hell I do business there and I would probably have a contract similar (not so gross) that shows my power over the project. The problem that MoW has failed to see is that they are not catering to polish people, but rather the world is seeing them. I know it doesn't sound exactly right, but their contracts should be written under US law. In an American way. Why? Because the majority of the viewers and players will be able to abide by that and will understand it better and won't take it as threatening. Cultural mistake there.
The cost of staying there + the streaming income. Another big joke. IF you are going to take income from someone you don't charge them margin on the cost to live there imo. Because your money is made from the fact they are streaming for you. 3-5 hours is do-able, but it doesn't achieve what the house was hyping itself up to be. So pick a side. Where are you going to make the money? From the stream? Or from the house? Double dipping something like that is kinda lame. I understand some people might be staying for free, so streaming income is probably the best option. The cost of things in poland already show you will turn a profit from the project regardless over time.
The other issue is, is it going to become a giant frat house with that much streaming going on? Correct answer, yes. Taking 5 hours out of a practice schedule in a day is one of the most insanely terrible things to do to someone who is trying to get better by gaming. Seriously, streaming saps energy (I stream to 20 viewers and by the end of it [3hours] I am always exhausted). So again, you have to pick a side, do you want to be a giant frat house that makes kids think everyone is a super star, or do you want people to become superstars by winning touranments?
From what I see, a whole bunch of stuff was really not planned or thought about before launching. Possibly the rush to make money was there I'm not sure. But a complete revamp of the model needs to occur immediately now, incase someone is fooled into thinking they will actually get better in a streaming environment.
Boss being Boss. I so like having actually-smart people around this industry.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
Oh be quiet please. If you're going to try and argue that attempting to rip someone off after they've traveled to your home doesn't make you a bad person than good luck buddy.
What do you mean ? I had met many people who tried to rip me off, most of them were real good people. One is even my BFF.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
Oh be quiet please. If you're going to try and argue that attempting to rip someone off after they've traveled to your home doesn't make you a bad person than good luck buddy.
yeah because you never made mistakes or said stupid shit in a chatlog, right? From what I've heard all other pros like the house and therefore this guy is doing more for eSports than you (and me) ever did.
Yes they didn't handle this situation right, but a project like this deserves a 2nd chance imo...
I approve of the kittens and the tone of the statements. Couple of points you might want to improve on though:
Don't sign statements as MoW. The person making the statement needs to take personal responsibility. It makes you more accountable and ultimately more trustworthy.
Second, you really need to clear up the refund issue. Did you, or did you not withhold or threaten to withhold it any point? If you did you need to clearly own up to it. If not you need to categorically deny it.
Honesty means more than not getting caught in an outright lie. It means being forthcoming with information and not forcing people to work for it.
I'm kind of agnostic on the streaming and non-compete clauses (although 10 years won't hold up in court and adding it does make you look a little bad).
People come to you to use your services and pay you for it. I do not get it why they should have to agree to contracts where your customers should do stuff, it should be the other way around, I mean they pay you, why should they be obligated to stream of give you additional revenues from streaming ? I also dont think that MOW has thout everything through and is really offering an experience worth the money. In the starting post of this thread MOW claims that they are not forcing players to stream or stopping them from joining other teamhouses and so on, but why even have it in the contract then or use wording that can be interptreted that way ?
I can not imagine that this is really professional. I think you just sat together spun around some crazy half ass business idea and implemented it without really thinking about it or putting real effort into it. I mean what is really the value that people are getting from this ? How are they training ? Why is this training better then sitting at home playing with other players and chatting/skyoing with them ? And at least at home you have food
On September 14 2012 01:34 RiSkyToss wrote: The pictures are an insult to the whole community.
LOL why.. can you explain ?
People take themselves too seriously. Wanting a professional esports scene does not mean you need to be a smack talking pitchfork holding dullard.
I think we could be generous and ignore the whole kittens thing. It's one thing to note that someone is not-quite-as-intelligent-as-could-be, but it's pretty unfair to make a point out of it.
EDIT: As in, posting those cats was clearly very inept reasoning.
I love how many people are upset about the kittens.
Considering that no-one else from MoW is particularly upset about everything NOR does MoW have any actual obligation to pay Fuzer back ANYTHING (though offering is an unnecessary, but kind gesture regardless of when it happened), MoW's reputation in my mind is reasonably untarnished. Sure, they're not perfect, but neither am I.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
On September 14 2012 01:49 hypercube wrote: I approve of the kittens and the tone of the statements. Couple of points you might want to improve on though:
Don't sign statements as MoW. The person making the statement needs to take personal responsibility. It makes you more accountable and ultimately more trustworthy.
Second, you really need to clear up the refund issue. Did you, or did you not withhold or threaten to withhold it any point? If you did you need to clearly own up to it. If not you need to categorically deny it.
Honesty means more than not getting caught in an outright lie. It means being forthcoming with information and not forcing people to work for it.
I'm kind of agnostic on the streaming and non-compete clauses (although 10 years won't hold up in court and adding it does make you look a little bad).
well he did say (and apologised for) that a lot of things were said in anger on both sides.
What MoW could do, to show off their good will, is make their current players sign an addendum to the contracts they signed, to reduce the 10 year ban, and clarify the specific streaming quota.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
Oh be quiet please. If you're going to try and argue that attempting to rip someone off after they've traveled to your home doesn't make you a bad person than good luck buddy.
yeah because you never made mistakes or said stupid shit in a chatlog, right? From what I've heard all other pros like the house and therefore this guy is doing more for eSports than you (and me) ever did.
Yes they didn't handle this situation right, but a project like this deserves a 2nd chance imo...
I've never done something as underhanded as MoW sorry. Did I ever say they don't deserve a second chance? They most definitely do! But holy shit dude, they NEED to address that issue. Thats a pretty messed up thing that they did, and then to present a "statement" and breeze over that issue with "a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down." and not go over the fact that he only offered the refund due to threats is fucking disgusting and completely unprofessional.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
Oh be quiet please. If you're going to try and argue that attempting to rip someone off after they've traveled to your home doesn't make you a bad person than good luck buddy.
yeah because you never made mistakes or said stupid shit in a chatlog, right? From what I've heard all other pros like the house and therefore this guy is doing more for eSports than you (and me) ever did.
Yes they didn't handle this situation right, but a project like this deserves a 2nd chance imo...
The dude isn't "doing this for esports", sure he might have some passion for the game etc. But they are making a lot of money from gamers, I'm not saying it's bad he's making money or wants to, but don't lie to yourself, he's doing this to make money and build a business, albeit a bad job of it.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
Oh be quiet please. If you're going to try and argue that attempting to rip someone off after they've traveled to your home doesn't make you a bad person than good luck buddy.
What do you mean ? I had met many people who tried to rip me off, most of them were real good people. One is even my BFF.
Rofl! So because your "friends" try to rip you off it makes it alright. Not everyone's like you. Most people don't appreciate being treated like shit.
Well, an apology and the assurance that the contract will be rephrased to get rid of the parts which might've been used to majorly screw with a player's career. That should resolve it, shouldn't it?
a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
What an underhanded way to put it. This statement doesn't refute that you at first REFUSED to pay the guy back and then after being threatened offered to refund the cash.
This.
Everything else sounds good though. Lesson learned. If not, pitchforks, sponsor-emails....you know the drill.
Pitchforks, yes, sponsor emails, please no. Don't start killing esports over a fairly trivial matter. There are very few people around with proper experience in handling esports ventures. MoW is a great concept and should be allowed to thrive. Live and let live..
It was a joke of course...Although, if some one should ever email sponsors over something, it should be over financial disputes. Players not getting paid is much worse then some bad PR to a profit orientated company. Not that this is the case of course.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
Oh be quiet please. If you're going to try and argue that attempting to rip someone off after they've traveled to your home doesn't make you a bad person than good luck buddy.
yeah because you never made mistakes or said stupid shit in a chatlog, right? From what I've heard all other pros like the house and therefore this guy is doing more for eSports than you (and me) ever did.
Yes they didn't handle this situation right, but a project like this deserves a 2nd chance imo...
The dude isn't "doing this for esports", sure he might have some passion for the game etc. But they are making a lot of money from gamers, I'm not saying it's bad he's making money or wants to, but don't lie to yourself, he's doing this to make money and build a business, albeit a bad job of it.
Whoah, MoW is churning out a huge profit now, is it?
On September 14 2012 01:47 joeschmo wrote: Instead of 5 hours of streaming, it should be 5 hours of actual coaching and practicing with players in house. This is like going to play with the Lakers but first having to practice street ball with the neighborhood kids until you don't like basketball anymore before you are allowed to eat a french fried meatball and lift your shy head up to eye a pro gamer to your direct left. BOO!
LOL . They play around 10h a day.. from what players that were there write. First 5 hours of day are custom games vs other players there with coach etc. So you dont know what you are talking about , maby next time read some about MoW and then post shit like this. One person write some lie and then everyone repeat that.
So, if the streaming thing is 'for the benefit of players' and is 'totally negotiable', why do you have a written contract specifically addressing the exact amount of hours each player is required to stream? It's not something Fuzer alone said, other players mentioned it in passing as well.
And why are you saying that 'a refund was offered, which Fuzer refused'? You make it sound like it was a genuine, unconditional offer of a refund - but previous posts already confirmed that you put it forward as another demand - 'either take the cash and shut up, or you aren't getting the money', essentially.
Last but not least, how does it make sense to give the player an ultimatum of either signing a contract that he is unhappy with, or leaving the house into which he had already settled, without giving him the opportunity of having the contract examined by someone more qualified of appraising it?
You try to sound nice and professional here, but all I'm seeing is a lot of really poor damage control and fluffy words that contradict reality. You'd be better off simply saying, 'Yeah, we fucked up with Fuzer. We'll try to do better in future' instead of this. Also, kittens? Seriously?
edit: I don't even think you're an evil bunch or something, the idea is great and obviously plenty of other players have enjoyed it. However your management seems pretty short-sighted, also I can't help but feel like you're trying to rip people off as much as you can get away with. You'd be way better off actually working out the kinks and honestly trying to fix the issues instead of whatever you are doing right now; on the most basic level, something like your catering problem that even players who were otherwise happy with the house had brought up is something that could be solved within a week tops. Also, having your own parties at night in a house that you're renting out to ten friggin' people? Like, how cheap can you get...
On September 14 2012 01:50 Holy_AT wrote: I do not like this model of MOW.
People come to you to use your services and pay you for it. I do not get it why they should have to agree to contracts where your customers should do stuff, it should be the other way around, I mean they pay you, why should they be obligated to stream of give you additional revenues from streaming ? I also dont think that MOW has thout everything through and is really offering an experience worth the money. In the starting post of this thread MOW claims that they are not forcing players to stream or stopping them from joining other teamhouses and so on, but why even have it in the contract then or use wording that can be interptreted that way ?
I can not imagine that this is really professional. I think you just sat together spun around some crazy half ass business idea and implemented it without really thinking about it or putting real effort into it. I mean what is really the value that people are getting from this ? How are they training ? Why is this training better then sitting at home playing with other players and chatting/skyoing with them ? And at least at home you have food
MoW is a good idea, a lot of kids want a taste of the progamer dream and this gives it to them. Is it unprofessional and a waste of money? maybe, but you'll always get people who want to do this sort of thing. It's a smart idea but badly executed PR wise.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
Oh be quiet please. If you're going to try and argue that attempting to rip someone off after they've traveled to your home doesn't make you a bad person than good luck buddy.
What do you mean ? I had met many people who tried to rip me off, most of them were real good people. One is even my BFF.
Rofl! So because your "friends" try to rip you off it makes it alright. Not everyone's like you. Most people don't appreciate being treated like shit.
Note to myself :
Everytime i write something really really absurd as a sarcasm, use smiles and winks too. Lots of them.
This can't be serious.. Btw I hate kittens so you fail and I hate that you even tryed that as a 'professional' organisation. MoW won't exist for very long if you keep this kind of stuff going.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
Oh be quiet please. If you're going to try and argue that attempting to rip someone off after they've traveled to your home doesn't make you a bad person than good luck buddy.
yeah because you never made mistakes or said stupid shit in a chatlog, right? From what I've heard all other pros like the house and therefore this guy is doing more for eSports than you (and me) ever did.
Yes they didn't handle this situation right, but a project like this deserves a 2nd chance imo...
The dude isn't "doing this for esports", sure he might have some passion for the game etc. But they are making a lot of money from gamers, I'm not saying it's bad he's making money or wants to, but don't lie to yourself, he's doing this to make money and build a business, albeit a bad job of it.
Whoah, MoW is churning out a huge profit now, is it?
600 euros a month in rent from everyone for a house in poland with like 10+ guys living it, and he took the money from Fuzer in cash so I guess he does that with everyone, yeah I'd say he is making a healthy profit.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
Oh be quiet please. If you're going to try and argue that attempting to rip someone off after they've traveled to your home doesn't make you a bad person than good luck buddy.
What do you mean ? I had met many people who tried to rip me off, most of them were real good people. One is even my BFF.
Rofl! So because your "friends" try to rip you off it makes it alright. Not everyone's like you. Most people don't appreciate being treated like shit.
Note to myself :
Everytime i write something really really absurd as a sarcasm, use smiles and winks too. Lots of them.
Posting little cats as a 'professional' organization is just absurd. Your attempt to be serious failed in my opinion. Ministry of Win already lost in my opinion.
On September 14 2012 01:56 Salazarz wrote: So, if the streaming thing is 'for the benefit of players' and is 'totally negotiable', why do you have a written contract specifically addressing the exact amount of hours each player is required to stream? It's not something Fuzer alone said, other players mentioned it in passing as well.
And why are you saying that 'a refund was offered, which Fuzer refused'? You make it sound like it was a genuine, unconditional offer of a refund - but previous posts already confirmed that you put it forward as another demand - 'either take the cash and shut up, or you aren't getting the money', essentially.
Last but not least, how does it make sense to give the player an ultimatum of either signing a contract that he is unhappy with, or leaving the house into which he had already settled, without giving him the opportunity of having the contract examined by someone more qualified of appraising it?
You try to sound nice and professional here, but all I'm seeing is a lot of really poor damage control and fluffy words that contradict reality. You'd be better off simply saying, 'Yeah, we fucked up with Fuzer. We'll try to do better in future' instead of this. Also, kittens? Seriously?
If fuzer doesn't read the contract, or have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month then he can't negotiate it.
What was the purpose of fuzer's post if not to attack MoW? Upon being attacked they decided that they would offer to unconditionally rectify the reason the attack took place, Fuzer declined. This is what attacks are supposed to do, create some sort of response. Fuzer got a response both out of the community and the MoW. Might not have been the correct response entirely, but it was a positive attempt.
When the person being offered the ultimatum has had over a month to make adjustments to a part of that ultimatum then it makes complete sense.
If you notice, they also didn't say "Yeah, we fucked up with fuzer" they say "We made mistakes handling the fuzer situation and offer our sincere apologies to him as well as the entire community" which is a huge difference. I wonder how many of you would care if we found out that Fuzer was back there next week and all was forgiven. I bet all the esports dollars there would be grudges held over issues that didn't have anything to do with us in the least.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
Oh be quiet please. If you're going to try and argue that attempting to rip someone off after they've traveled to your home doesn't make you a bad person than good luck buddy.
yeah because you never made mistakes or said stupid shit in a chatlog, right? From what I've heard all other pros like the house and therefore this guy is doing more for eSports than you (and me) ever did.
Yes they didn't handle this situation right, but a project like this deserves a 2nd chance imo...
The dude isn't "doing this for esports", sure he might have some passion for the game etc. But they are making a lot of money from gamers, I'm not saying it's bad he's making money or wants to, but don't lie to yourself, he's doing this to make money and build a business, albeit a bad job of it.
And you know that, because...? At least he is trying to create a business within eSports which is more than most of us will ever do. As long as the house is good and the players enjoy it, I don't even care what his motivation is.
Yes it seems like they need to improve a lot of things, but it's a new project and we should at least give them some time to learn from their mistakes and not talk shit about everything they do.
a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
What an underhanded way to put it. This statement doesn't refute that you at first REFUSED to pay the guy back and then after being threatened offered to refund the cash.
This.
Everything else sounds good though. Lesson learned. If not, pitchforks, sponsor-emails....you know the drill.
Pitchforks, yes, sponsor emails, please no. Don't start killing esports over a fairly trivial matter. There are very few people around with proper experience in handling esports ventures. MoW is a great concept and should be allowed to thrive. Live and let live..
It was a joke of course...Although, if some one should ever email sponsors over something, it should be over financial disputes. Players not getting paid is much worse then some bad PR to a profit orientated company. Not that this is the case of course.
Fuzer got his money back now, right?
Yes, giving Fuzer his money and making this (the OP) statement (albeit the fucking kittens) were the only two correct things to do after the situation blew up.
Besides the kittens I am pretty satisfied with the conclusion, but if I were the MoW manager, I would take a good look at what FXO.BoSs wrote about contracting players in the other thread (quoted in this thread twice so far).
Too late, IMO. First they didn't want to give him back the money. When he started making a fuzz they finally offered to do so. Their first public "statement" was a few lines of nonsense. Then came the news article from "a trusted news source" that was even worse as it was so clearly biased and still didn't address anything. At least this statement is better and more professional, but it came too late and still doesn't address the major issues in any good way. It doesn't mention that they only offered to pay him back after he went public with it, instead they just say he "declined". It doesn't say anything about why it was so difficult to get his Fuzer's lawyer a copy of the contract.
It seems to me that every inch of ground that MoW has given up here is a direct result of pressure from the community and I see nothing to suggest that they have a genuine interest in making this right. I won't say anything about the cats.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
I don't think they need a PR person, they just need a new person in general. This guy (according to the skype logs) was going to rip fuzer off. The only reason any of this pr kitten bullshit is happening is because his threat came back and bit him in the ass.
He's not a good person. He's a bad person.
Judging a person based on some lines in a chatlog. TL in a nutshell.
Would be a really smart move to include some of the statements the MoW-residents made in the first thread in the op btw.
Oh be quiet please. If you're going to try and argue that attempting to rip someone off after they've traveled to your home doesn't make you a bad person than good luck buddy.
yeah because you never made mistakes or said stupid shit in a chatlog, right? From what I've heard all other pros like the house and therefore this guy is doing more for eSports than you (and me) ever did.
Yes they didn't handle this situation right, but a project like this deserves a 2nd chance imo...
The dude isn't "doing this for esports", sure he might have some passion for the game etc. But they are making a lot of money from gamers, I'm not saying it's bad he's making money or wants to, but don't lie to yourself, he's doing this to make money and build a business, albeit a bad job of it.
And you know that, because...? At least he is trying to create a business within eSports which is more than most of us will ever do. As long as the house is good and the players enjoy it, I don't even care what his motivation is.
Yes it seems like they need to improve a lot of things, but it's a new project and we should at least give them some time to learn from their mistakes and not talk shit about everything they do.
why else would you start a business if not to make money? why would you charge 600 euros a month if not to make money? why would you get pro players in to make the whole thing more legitimate if not to make money from exposure and legitimacy they bring to it? why would you take a percentage of the stream revenue if not to make money?
No, I don't know what his intentions are but I can process information and reach a probable conclusion.
I'm not saying he's bad for wanting to make money from esports, good for him, but don't make out he is doing this out of pure altruism or for the holy grail of "esports".
OBVIOUSLY FUZER WONT SIGN THE CONTRACT NO MATTER HOW MUCH TIME YOU GIVE HIM BECAUSE YOU DONT GIVE HIM A COPY OF THE CONTRACT TO SHOW TO WHOEVER HE WANTS.
It was a de-redeeming factor, as in, it fully showcased to the community that we aren't dealing with a person equipped with a fully functionable logic engine.
On September 14 2012 01:38 Shocae wrote: Oh my god. I can't stand the way you handled things, your shady as fuck boss (who should be fired asap), the contracts, the press releases and statements that did not address the issue yesterday and the way you depict Fuzer as more in the wrong than you, that you asked for a license to prove fuzer has a lawyer, that you wouldn't pay back a negligible amount of money in a power/ego move, the patronizing of the community like we're idiots with kitten pictures and interviews that have nothing to do with the conflict, the use of media/propaganda, the taking advantage of non well known players, your lack of adhering to the dietary plan you promised, the amount of you are compensated vs the amount spent on the players, the way in which you communicated threats of not paying via skype chat because it was untraceable, the streaming hours, just your overall sense/way of handling this whole situation has been utterly despicable. I've never boycotted before, but I am.
Also, I encourage an audit of the organization to see how clean an operation they run.
This. I couldn't put it better. Basically a perfect summary of my thoughts.
On September 14 2012 02:04 bGr.MetHiX wrote: i love kittens.
and everybody who knows fuzer knows he's to blame
im amazed how many people blindly jump on the Hate-MoW-bandwagon for no reason.
I wirte this many times.. Everyone who watched Fuzer stream just once.. know he is not an angel and BM.
Other funny thing is that you refused to take money back.. , he pick drama.. , he chose drama not MONEY , and now MoW hater write.. GIVE him oney back.. ? hahaha , you must be joking.
On September 14 2012 02:04 bGr.MetHiX wrote: i love kittens.
and everybody who knows fuzer knows he's to blame
im amazed how many people blindly jump on the Hate-MoW-bandwagon for no reason.
I wirte this many times.. Everyone who watched Fuzer stream just once.. know he is not an angel and BM.
Other funny thing is that you refused to take money back.. , he pick drama.. , he chose drama not MONEY , and now MoW hater write.. GIVE him oney back.. ? hahaha , you must be joking.
You clearly have absolutely no grasp what so ever on the situation at hand.
On September 14 2012 02:08 SupLilSon wrote: I haven't even been following the drama but MoW seems completely unprofessional from a bystanders perspective...
How can it take sooooo long to release this statement?
Because they needed to pad the statement with enough words to compensate for the fact that it doesn't contain the most important piece of information?
Im sorry, what ? how can you make a vague 2 page pr bs answer and than still manage to make it look unprofessional, please at least edit the kitties out.
On September 14 2012 02:08 SupLilSon wrote: I haven't even been following the drama but MoW seems completely unprofessional from a bystanders perspective...
How can it take sooooo long to release this statement?
Because they needed to pad the statement with enough words to compensate for the fact that it doesn't contain the most important piece of information?
I anticipate a full-length essay tomorrow.
What exactly is the most important piece? The part about offering refund after Fuzer said he'll go public? That's pretty obvious for me that this happened this way.
On September 14 2012 02:08 SupLilSon wrote: I haven't even been following the drama but MoW seems completely unprofessional from a bystanders perspective...
How can it take sooooo long to release this statement?
Because they needed to pad the statement with enough words to compensate for the fact that it doesn't contain the most important piece of information?
I anticipate a full-length essay tomorrow.
Hahah you are also funny.. Yesterday most important informatios was... " OMG NO .. ? you cant go to gaming house for 10 years.." its turn out blushit because you cant only MAKE own house. later yesterday most important information was "OMG NO they dont give food to playes omg omg " its turn out bulshit also , food is not perfect , but noone is starving Then most important information was " why they dont let him show contracto to his lawyer"
And now here you go agine.. most important information..
On September 14 2012 02:12 syriuszonito wrote: Try to steal someones money -> shit gots revealed -> post kittens
Seriously?
That pretty much goes to show the character of this organization.
You obviously skipped the part of the post before the kittens, especially the part explaining how does the house works and the statement about players getting informed that they pay up front.
MoW messed up with those kittens, but seriously... read the stuff above.
On September 14 2012 01:14 MinistryOfWin wrote: Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
Such a nice way to put it yet we have proof this isn't the way it went down... You were being a huge douche to him saying you wouldn't pay him back anything. Then suddenly, when he goes public with this, you make the offer.
And it's not like you can deny any of it, he pasted the frickin convo.
I'm getting fed up with shitty ass business deals fucking up people of the community. If you want to help esports how bout you get your shit straight and quit looking so damn amateur. (Like putting kitty pics in your official statement.... I for one find it quite insulting.)
Totally agree with u. Total insult to the community posting the kitty pics after such a serious matter, shady buisness as fuck. Gonna boycot all the stream of the players there, dont want MoW to have a penny. Since he didn't sign the contract he should still get the rest of his money back. But since he destroyed ur plublic image, erm should i say you destroyed your public image you won't give him a dime
On September 14 2012 01:14 MinistryOfWin wrote: Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
Such a nice way to put it yet we have proof this isn't the way it went down... You were being a huge douche to him saying you wouldn't pay him back anything. Then suddenly, when he goes public with this, you make the offer.
And it's not like you can deny any of it, he pasted the frickin convo.
I'm getting fed up with shitty ass business deals fucking up people of the community. If you want to help esports how bout you get your shit straight and quit looking so damn amateur. (Like putting kitty pics in your official statement.... I for one find it quite insulting.)
Total insult to the community posting the kitty pics after such a serious matter, shady buisness as fuck. Gonna boycot all the stream of the players there, dont want MoW to have a penny.
You're hurting the players immensely by doing that too. Just so you're aware.
I guess it's a crazy issue if that's your approach. I suppose one could say they're holding the players hostage in that regard. Only from the perspective of a boycotter though. Definitely a wild predicament.
On September 14 2012 02:12 syriuszonito wrote: Try to steal someones money -> shit gots revealed -> post kittens
Seriously?
That pretty much goes to show the character of this organization.
You obviously skipped the part of the post before the kittens, especially the part explaining how does the house works and the statement about players getting informed that they pay up front.
MoW messed up with those kittens, but seriously... read the stuff above.
Actually did read it, unfortunately there is nothing about the problems that really made the MoW look so shit (why didnt they just give the contract to fuzer's lawyer and why did they accept to give him money back only after he threatened to make it public).
So let me get this straight. You showed the contract first time to him at 8th of September which is Saturday and then when Fuzer wanted to show it to a lawyer you wanted to see his licence by 11th of September or he would be kicked off. Most of the law-firms do not work on Saturdays and Sundays in Finland which leaved Fuzer less than 2 days to find a lawyer and him to send his licence to your e-mail. And he had to do all this from Poland. This really does not sound a fair timetable at all. Also im excluding the fact that you really had no right to demand some kind of proof.
So much uninformed reflexive stupid in this thread. Taking fuzers part is not cheering on david versus goliath. It's urging on a trollish idiot who spends his time 2-raxing on ladder.
On September 14 2012 02:22 Valmar wrote: So let me get this straight. You showed the contract first time to him at 8th of September which is Saturday and then when Fuzer wanted to show it to a lawyer you wanted to see his licence by 11th of September or he would be kicked off. Most of the law-firms do not work on Saturdays and Sundays in Finland which leaved Fuzer less than 2 days to find a lawyer and him to send his licence to your e-mail. And he had to do all this from Poland. This really does not sound a fair timetable at all. Also im excluding the fact that you really had no right to demand some kind of proof.
which has been delivered in cash by Samuli on arrival to the house. Soon after the Ministry of Win contract has been presented to him negotiations and consultations began. [EDIT: First time, few weeks ago]
Finally all the amendments proposed by Samuli have been fully incorporated into the contract and the final version has been submitted for his approval on Saturday the 8th.[EDIT: Second time] By that time the second month payment has already been concluded. Samuli refused to sign the agreed contract containing his amendments and requested another consultation period.
On September 14 2012 02:23 m0ck wrote: So much uninformed reflexive stupid in this thread. Taking fuzers part is not cheering on david versus goliath. It's urging on a trollish idiot who spends his time 2-raxing on ladder.
Because the builds he chooses to use during ladder play OBVIOUSLY has something to do with the whole thing.
nobody wonders why Fuzer didn't provide his lawyer's licence. i think he should clarify this issue. maybe there was no lawyer? about money they "owned| to Fuzer. peopel who travel a lot now how it works, when you say you will stay somwhere for one month you have to pay for one month, nobody cares if you leave earlier. owner has to pay for cleaning service, food (even if it's not the best one) and so one. this is totaly understandable. what more, Fuzer, accused MoW for stealing wich is quite serious and started threating and teasing on his facebook account first. take it into considiraton. i'm not saying MoW was the good guys over here, nor Fuzer was the bad one, but amout of shitstorm is simply minblowing and some balance should be made.
On September 14 2012 02:23 m0ck wrote: So much uninformed reflexive stupid in this thread. Taking fuzers part is not cheering on david versus goliath. It's urging on a trollish idiot who spends his time 2-raxing on ladder.
Fuzers personality nor choice of build affects this issue.
Mah, I take it as just not good at doing business rather than some more sinister intentions unless more issues. But something still doesn't add up / make sense.
The streaming clause makes absolutely no sense. Generally if it's in the contract it is expected no matter if you enforce it or not. When you want people to stream for a 90% of a full time job, don't have a timesheet is NOT a reasonable way of suggesting it is not mandatory. Most job don't actually monitor you work 40 hour a week, but most people still work 35+ hour, and not because they all want to. It is not a good way to get better, which is what people pay you to do there presumably.
Also, NOT telling someone they have to work a full time job while PAYING you before they got here is absolutely ridiculous. Good thing you don't base your house in US or people would sue you back to stone age.
Regarding contract, everyone can agree it was dumb to not have Fuzer (or anyone) sign a contract beforehand. However, coerce / threaten someone someone to sign a contract which other party have problem understanding fully is illegal. It is your responsibility to make contract clear to other parties. You either allow his lawyer to go through it (And no, don't ask the lawyer to email you credential. You are not fit to verify credential, especially from another country. You ask for lawyer's identification and verify it through a registry) or get it translated in his native language and notarized.
Your claim of offer paying Fuzer back doesn't compute either. While it may technically be true, you are fuzzing with timeline here. The evidence seem to suggest you only offered only after he decided to go public, while shown to play dumb regarding money before, and you or anyone else have not refuted. You maybe upset at whatever he did or whatever you thought, but that is borderline fraud and is no way of running a respectable business.
On September 14 2012 01:56 Salazarz wrote: So, if the streaming thing is 'for the benefit of players' and is 'totally negotiable', why do you have a written contract specifically addressing the exact amount of hours each player is required to stream? It's not something Fuzer alone said, other players mentioned it in passing as well.
And why are you saying that 'a refund was offered, which Fuzer refused'? You make it sound like it was a genuine, unconditional offer of a refund - but previous posts already confirmed that you put it forward as another demand - 'either take the cash and shut up, or you aren't getting the money', essentially.
Last but not least, how does it make sense to give the player an ultimatum of either signing a contract that he is unhappy with, or leaving the house into which he had already settled, without giving him the opportunity of having the contract examined by someone more qualified of appraising it?
You try to sound nice and professional here, but all I'm seeing is a lot of really poor damage control and fluffy words that contradict reality. You'd be better off simply saying, 'Yeah, we fucked up with Fuzer. We'll try to do better in future' instead of this. Also, kittens? Seriously?
If fuzer doesn't read the contract, or have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month then he can't negotiate it.
What was the purpose of fuzer's post if not to attack MoW? Upon being attacked they decided that they would offer to unconditionally rectify the reason the attack took place, Fuzer declined. This is what attacks are supposed to do, create some sort of response. Fuzer got a response both out of the community and the MoW. Might not have been the correct response entirely, but it was a positive attempt.
When the person being offered the ultimatum has had over a month to make adjustments to a part of that ultimatum then it makes complete sense.
If you notice, they also didn't say "Yeah, we fucked up with fuzer" they say "We made mistakes handling the fuzer situation and offer our sincere apologies to him as well as the entire community" which is a huge difference. I wonder how many of you would care if we found out that Fuzer was back there next week and all was forgiven. I bet all the esports dollars there would be grudges held over issues that didn't have anything to do with us in the least.
He couldn't have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month because MoW refused to provide a copy of the contract for anyone but himself to look at. How exactly is that his fault?
Also, however critical Fuzer is, he is hardly 'attacking' MoW. He gave his recollection of the events, and provided ample evidence supporting his side of the story. It's not an attack, it's an explanation of the situation from his point of view; the fact that it puts MoW in bad light is hardly his fault if the stuff is actually true. On the other hand, MoW's replies were dodgy at best, some of the stuff they write is downright false; even their initial advertisement of the house offers a lot of promises that aren't being fulfilled despite for the house having been up and running for... was it 3 months now or so?
It's just very hard to take any of their statements seriously.
On September 14 2012 02:23 m0ck wrote: So much uninformed reflexive stupid in this thread. Taking fuzers part is not cheering on david versus goliath. It's urging on a trollish idiot who spends his time 2-raxing on ladder.
Because the builds he chooses to use during ladder play OBVIOUSLY has something to do with the whole thing.
And you talk about stupid...
Looks like everyone know that Fuzer is BM/chesser and cant be taking seriously , but only you no.. Did you watch Fuzer strem just once.. ? What he was doing on stream.. ? I think no..
On September 14 2012 02:23 m0ck wrote: So much uninformed reflexive stupid in this thread. Taking fuzers part is not cheering on david versus goliath. It's urging on a trollish idiot who spends his time 2-raxing on ladder.
Because the builds he chooses to use during ladder play OBVIOUSLY has something to do with the whole thing.
And you talk about stupid...
Looks like everyone know that Fuzer is BM/chesser and cant be taking seriously , but only you no.. Did you watch Fuzer strem just once.. ? What he was doing on stream.. ? I think no..
What the hell? Please stop posting if you have nothing relevant to post.
On September 14 2012 02:23 m0ck wrote: So much uninformed reflexive stupid in this thread. Taking fuzers part is not cheering on david versus goliath. It's urging on a trollish idiot who spends his time 2-raxing on ladder.
Because the builds he chooses to use during ladder play OBVIOUSLY has something to do with the whole thing.
And you talk about stupid...
Looks like everyone know that Fuzer is BM/chesser and cant be taking seriously , but only you no.. Did you watch Fuzer strem just once.. ? What he was doing on stream.. ? I think no..
What he does on stream has nothing to do with this topic. This is very simple to understand.
On September 14 2012 02:25 s00s wrote: nobody wonders why Fuzer didn't provide his lawer licence. i think he should claryfie this issue. maybe there was no lawer? about money they "owned| to Fuzer. peopel who travel a lot now how it works, when you say you will stay somwhere for one month you have to pay for one month, nobody cares if you leave earlier. owner has to pay for cleaning service, food (even if it's not the best one) and so one. this is totaly understandable. what more, Fuzer, accused MoW for stealing wich is quite serious and started threating and teasing on his facebook account first. take it into considiraton. i'm not saying MoW was the good guys over here, nor Fuzer was the bad one, but amout of shitstorm is simply minblowing and some balance should be made.
True, Fuzer does seem a little douche in all this, it's understandable how - even if you're a new business - you could get annoyed with the kid if he's breaking rules and not signing the contract etc and say some regrettable shit to him on skype. At least MoW have said that they shouldn't have let him in the house without signing the contract and hopefully they have learned that they can't push lesser known players around anymore and hopefully they'll fix some of their "rules".
On September 14 2012 01:14 MinistryOfWin wrote: Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
[/center]
That's a lie. We saw skype logs showing that you refused the refund. You asked for account number, and offered the refund, 2 hour after Fuzers Facebook post;
"Back in finland, time to start writing a story how MoW house stealed my money "
So to sum up: -You didn't want to refund his money -He posted that he will tell the community about it (on Facebook) -You wanna do the refund to prevent the drama -He turns the proposition down (as he should!) -He posts, drama begins -You do the statement and LIE in it.
On September 14 2012 02:23 m0ck wrote: So much uninformed reflexive stupid in this thread. Taking fuzers part is not cheering on david versus goliath. It's urging on a trollish idiot who spends his time 2-raxing on ladder.
Because the builds he chooses to use during ladder play OBVIOUSLY has something to do with the whole thing.
And you talk about stupid...
Looks like everyone know that Fuzer is BM/chesser and cant be taking seriously , but only you no.. Did you watch Fuzer strem just once.. ? What he was doing on stream.. ? I think no..
What the hell? Please stop posting if you have nothing relevant to post.
Why because you say so.. ? There are threads where i hel people , try to answer questions , thread worth my time and effort , but this one is just troll fest..and i hate trolls. Why all stupid and bulshit post here come from users that have 1-30 posts.. ? People write think just to write.. they dont even know what they write abouth.. and who is Fuzer..
On September 14 2012 02:23 m0ck wrote: So much uninformed reflexive stupid in this thread. Taking fuzers part is not cheering on david versus goliath. It's urging on a trollish idiot who spends his time 2-raxing on ladder.
Because the builds he chooses to use during ladder play OBVIOUSLY has something to do with the whole thing.
And you talk about stupid...
Looks like everyone know that Fuzer is BM/chesser and cant be taking seriously , but only you no.. Did you watch Fuzer strem just once.. ? What he was doing on stream.. ? I think no..
What he does on stream has nothing to do with this topic. This is very simple to understand.
And you are kind wrong sir. He always tried to attract attention , and now he got what he want. Be famous one way or another...
On September 14 2012 02:25 s00s wrote: nobody wonders why Fuzer didn't provide his lawer licence. i think he should claryfie this issue. maybe there was no lawer? about money they "owned| to Fuzer. peopel who travel a lot now how it works, when you say you will stay somwhere for one month you have to pay for one month, nobody cares if you leave earlier. owner has to pay for cleaning service, food (even if it's not the best one) and so one. this is totaly understandable. what more, Fuzer, accused MoW for stealing wich is quite serious and started threating and teasing on his facebook account first. take it into considiraton. i'm not saying MoW was the good guys over here, nor Fuzer was the bad one, but amout of shitstorm is simply minblowing and some balance should be made.
True, Fuzer does seem a little douche in all this, it's understandable how - even if you're a new business - you could get annoyed with the kid if he's breaking rules and not signing the contract etc and say some regrettable shit to him on skype. At least MoW have said that they shouldn't have let him in the house without signing the contract and hopefully they have learned that they can't push lesser known players around anymore and hopefully they'll fix some of their "rules".
MoW asked for lawyer's credential the same day they asked the deadline from what I can gather. That's a little short notice for his lawyer to get everything ready to send to someone from another country. Also, it is a HIGHLY unusual practice. You don't ask for credential of someone from another country. Just how could you tell if it is real or not? You ask for the identity and verify it through a directory / registry.
3. The fee of 2 500 PLN (circa €600 or $785) is charged up front for full months of all inclusive stay in the house. This is the first consideration the players are presented with before coming to the house. Please note that the Ministry of Win is not a hotel thus all operations, including guest departures and arrivals, food and supply purchases, etc..., are planned and partially executed at least a month ahead with accordance to the players stay roster.
Why is it even here if later you are saying: "a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down"? Did you forget to say it was offered after he mentioned uncovering the whole thing and it was rather not a refund but an attempt to buy his silence? And since the whole thing got leaked now you need a reason not to pay him back? Ok now that quote DOES make sense.
On September 14 2012 02:25 s00s wrote: nobody wonders why Fuzer didn't provide his lawer licence. i think he should claryfie this issue. maybe there was no lawer?
Considering there had already been revisions made to the contract that would heavily lean toward there being a lawyer involved, but we don't know that. Fuzer could have proposed revisions himself, and then wanted to get a look-see by his lawyer after he got the final version on September 8th.
As noted above, trying to get any documentation from a lawyer in such an aggressive time frame is quite difficult. But let's just assume that MoW got tired of Fuzer stonewalling them and kicked him out of the house out of frustration; the correct way of doing so is to refund the money. Hell, there may have been a "if you're an asshole we can kick you out and keep your deposit" clause in the contract but Fuzer hadn't signed it!
On September 14 2012 01:14 MinistryOfWin wrote: Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
That's a lie. We saw skype logs showing that you refused the refund. You asked for account number, and offered the refund, 2 hour after Fuzers Facebook post;
"Back in finland, time to start writing a story how MoW house stealed my money "
So to sum up: -You didn't want to refund his money -He posted that he will tell the community about it (on Facebook) -You wanna do the refund to prevent the drama -He turns the proposition down (as he should!) -He posts, drama begins -You do the statement and LIE in it.
Nice move!
[/center]
This isnt the first time Boss have been in scam´s on esports COD4 LAN SCAM (polish) so everyone whos saying he should get another change, this is his third one your giving to him
On September 14 2012 01:56 Salazarz wrote: So, if the streaming thing is 'for the benefit of players' and is 'totally negotiable', why do you have a written contract specifically addressing the exact amount of hours each player is required to stream? It's not something Fuzer alone said, other players mentioned it in passing as well.
And why are you saying that 'a refund was offered, which Fuzer refused'? You make it sound like it was a genuine, unconditional offer of a refund - but previous posts already confirmed that you put it forward as another demand - 'either take the cash and shut up, or you aren't getting the money', essentially.
Last but not least, how does it make sense to give the player an ultimatum of either signing a contract that he is unhappy with, or leaving the house into which he had already settled, without giving him the opportunity of having the contract examined by someone more qualified of appraising it?
You try to sound nice and professional here, but all I'm seeing is a lot of really poor damage control and fluffy words that contradict reality. You'd be better off simply saying, 'Yeah, we fucked up with Fuzer. We'll try to do better in future' instead of this. Also, kittens? Seriously?
If fuzer doesn't read the contract, or have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month then he can't negotiate it.
What was the purpose of fuzer's post if not to attack MoW? Upon being attacked they decided that they would offer to unconditionally rectify the reason the attack took place, Fuzer declined. This is what attacks are supposed to do, create some sort of response. Fuzer got a response both out of the community and the MoW. Might not have been the correct response entirely, but it was a positive attempt.
When the person being offered the ultimatum has had over a month to make adjustments to a part of that ultimatum then it makes complete sense.
If you notice, they also didn't say "Yeah, we fucked up with fuzer" they say "We made mistakes handling the fuzer situation and offer our sincere apologies to him as well as the entire community" which is a huge difference. I wonder how many of you would care if we found out that Fuzer was back there next week and all was forgiven. I bet all the esports dollars there would be grudges held over issues that didn't have anything to do with us in the least.
He couldn't have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month because MoW refused to provide a copy of the contract for anyone but himself to look at. How exactly is that his fault?
Also, however critical Fuzer is, he is hardly 'attacking' MoW. He gave his recollection of the events, and provided ample evidence supporting his side of the story. It's not an attack, it's an explanation of the situation from his point of view; the fact that it puts MoW in bad light is hardly his fault if the stuff is actually true. It's just very hard to take any of their statements seriously.
But several of his main arguments: (starving, not being part of another team house for 10 years, everyone having to stream 150 hours a month) were simply not true at all.
Oh people of the internet, you've got yourself quite a feast. Enjoy throwing around judgements based on little parts of conversations, while nobody can punch you in the face. Amusing thread, thanks guys
On September 14 2012 02:35 MenaceWarrior wrote: This isnt the first time Boss have been in scam´s on esports COD4 LAN SCAM (polish) so everyone whos saying he should get another change, this is his third one your giving to him
Tell me... do you really think that Fuzer was misinformed about paying for the whole month up front? MoW got in trouble because they did not sign anything beforehand. Implying that this was intended to be a scam or a theft is an overkill.
On September 14 2012 02:25 s00s wrote: nobody wonders why Fuzer didn't provide his lawer licence. i think he should claryfie this issue. maybe there was no lawer? about money they "owned| to Fuzer. peopel who travel a lot now how it works, when you say you will stay somwhere for one month you have to pay for one month, nobody cares if you leave earlier. owner has to pay for cleaning service, food (even if it's not the best one) and so one. this is totaly understandable. what more, Fuzer, accused MoW for stealing wich is quite serious and started threating and teasing on his facebook account first. take it into considiraton. i'm not saying MoW was the good guys over here, nor Fuzer was the bad one, but amout of shitstorm is simply minblowing and some balance should be made.
That's not the issue here as he didn't leave on his own terms but was asked to leave, therefore MoW was the party denying him what he had already paid for, therefore the "upfront" nature of the payment is void because that would simply amount to fraud in any court room. An agreement that trades one thing for another does not allow one party to withhold their part while still receiving the other party's. Fuzer went wild in his choice of words but you can't blame him after the time frame we see here. It's not at all Fuzer's concern whether they have to pay for shit in advance and then kick him out.
Seriously MoW, 8th to 11th? To get a lawyer's license faxed to you which can basically only happen on monday then? It's far from any normal business practice to require that in the first place.
Samuli refused to sign the agreed contract containing his amendments and requested another consultation period. This has been received as a stalling tactics
So you hand him some contract you negotiated with him and then when he gets the final version which he might actually consider you throw him out after 3 days of not signing it because you're apparently becoming impatient because you can't enforce all the other shit in it? You can let people sign partial agreements, you know. He has every right to not immediately sign this and show it to a lawyer. I wouldn't show an unfinished contract to my lawyer either because these guys don't exactly work for free (you can easily calculate 200€ per working hour and a 15 page contract should take at least that long).
Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
Spin much? Given the posted chatlogs this just seems like a blatant lie. You had to fear for you reputation and public backlash first it seems.
On September 14 2012 02:25 s00s wrote: nobody wonders why Fuzer didn't provide his lawer licence. i think he should claryfie this issue. maybe there was no lawer?
Considering there had already been revisions made to the contract that would heavily lean toward there being a lawyer involved, but we don't know that. Fuzer could have proposed revisions himself, and then wanted to get a look-see by his lawyer after he got the final version on September 8th.
As noted above, trying to get any documentation from a lawyer in such an aggressive time frame is quite difficult. But let's just assume that MoW got tired of Fuzer stonewalling them and kicked him out of the house out of frustration; the correct way of doing so is to refund the money. Hell, there may have been a "if you're an asshole we can kick you out and keep your deposit" clause in the contract but Fuzer hadn't signed it!
Finally someone with alive brain cells.
If you want to kick the guy out of the house because he is a prick, always remember it is a business, and YOU took the risk bringing him to the house withouth signing anything. Do the right thing, pay the guy, say him goodbye, wish him the best of lucks, and GG. Noone can ever say some shit about you because you are on the right.
On September 14 2012 01:56 Salazarz wrote: So, if the streaming thing is 'for the benefit of players' and is 'totally negotiable', why do you have a written contract specifically addressing the exact amount of hours each player is required to stream? It's not something Fuzer alone said, other players mentioned it in passing as well.
And why are you saying that 'a refund was offered, which Fuzer refused'? You make it sound like it was a genuine, unconditional offer of a refund - but previous posts already confirmed that you put it forward as another demand - 'either take the cash and shut up, or you aren't getting the money', essentially.
Last but not least, how does it make sense to give the player an ultimatum of either signing a contract that he is unhappy with, or leaving the house into which he had already settled, without giving him the opportunity of having the contract examined by someone more qualified of appraising it?
You try to sound nice and professional here, but all I'm seeing is a lot of really poor damage control and fluffy words that contradict reality. You'd be better off simply saying, 'Yeah, we fucked up with Fuzer. We'll try to do better in future' instead of this. Also, kittens? Seriously?
If fuzer doesn't read the contract, or have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month then he can't negotiate it.
What was the purpose of fuzer's post if not to attack MoW? Upon being attacked they decided that they would offer to unconditionally rectify the reason the attack took place, Fuzer declined. This is what attacks are supposed to do, create some sort of response. Fuzer got a response both out of the community and the MoW. Might not have been the correct response entirely, but it was a positive attempt.
When the person being offered the ultimatum has had over a month to make adjustments to a part of that ultimatum then it makes complete sense.
If you notice, they also didn't say "Yeah, we fucked up with fuzer" they say "We made mistakes handling the fuzer situation and offer our sincere apologies to him as well as the entire community" which is a huge difference. I wonder how many of you would care if we found out that Fuzer was back there next week and all was forgiven. I bet all the esports dollars there would be grudges held over issues that didn't have anything to do with us in the least.
He couldn't have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month because MoW refused to provide a copy of the contract for anyone but himself to look at. How exactly is that his fault?
Also, however critical Fuzer is, he is hardly 'attacking' MoW. He gave his recollection of the events, and provided ample evidence supporting his side of the story. It's not an attack, it's an explanation of the situation from his point of view; the fact that it puts MoW in bad light is hardly his fault if the stuff is actually true. It's just very hard to take any of their statements seriously.
But several of his main arguments: (starving, not being part of another team house for 10 years, everyone having to stream 150 hours a month) were simply not true at all.
Food problem is verified by MoW and other players. Did he exagerate? Probably. But it still an issue. The 10 year can't create own house thing was confirmed by others. 150 hour stream was also confirmed by multiple players.
Just because MoW said they didn't enforce it (that's a bunch of BS, you don't put it in contract just for shits and giggles) doesn't mean it was not in the contract and was expected.
On September 14 2012 02:12 syriuszonito wrote: Try to steal someones money -> shit gots revealed -> post kittens
Seriously?
Yes, seriously.. The staff always seemed quite cold and not carrying in the videos. And now you know why. The whole MoW is there for the money and nothing more.
You guys at MoW still need to understand that after you accepted the payment you have to deliver the services. He payed for the month let him live to the end and then kick him out, NOT BEFORE THAT. There was no stupid contract signed where a stupid clause like
If MoW decides to kick the player out before his stay expires, the player is not entitled for a refund on the remaining days
could be inserted. So pretty fucking please give him the damn money.
Samuli expressed his interest in joining the Ministry of Win. In order to meet his expectations we decided to invite him in and let him experience the house-life first hand, so that he could make a more educated decision with regards to the contract. A monthly fee of 2 500 PLN has been established, paid up front each month, which has been delivered in cash by Samuli on arrival to the house.
So until he signs the contract you established he would pay 2500 PLN per month. Then when both of you are working out the details of the contract you tell him to sign until 22:00 or leave the house? It was the 8th of the month for which he already payed you, so what was your reason to throw him out so early? Especially because fuzers native language is not english and he wanted to let a lawyer check the contract, which is completely reasonable. Did you ask fuzer to send some qualifications of his lawyer?
At least you admit that you did not handle the situation correctly, but you don't really go into detail to make me understand why you acted the way you did.
Also I think adding kittens in this situation is not appropriate.
On September 14 2012 02:23 m0ck wrote: So much uninformed reflexive stupid in this thread. Taking fuzers part is not cheering on david versus goliath. It's urging on a trollish idiot who spends his time 2-raxing on ladder.
Because the builds he chooses to use during ladder play OBVIOUSLY has something to do with the whole thing.
And you talk about stupid...
Looks like everyone know that Fuzer is BM/chesser and cant be taking seriously , but only you no.. Did you watch Fuzer strem just once.. ? What he was doing on stream.. ? I think no..
I wish I could understand a word of your gibberish but I honestly can't. You're not even trying to be understood. Not that there is anything to understand, just saying your posts look like shit.
On September 14 2012 01:56 Salazarz wrote: So, if the streaming thing is 'for the benefit of players' and is 'totally negotiable', why do you have a written contract specifically addressing the exact amount of hours each player is required to stream? It's not something Fuzer alone said, other players mentioned it in passing as well.
And why are you saying that 'a refund was offered, which Fuzer refused'? You make it sound like it was a genuine, unconditional offer of a refund - but previous posts already confirmed that you put it forward as another demand - 'either take the cash and shut up, or you aren't getting the money', essentially.
Last but not least, how does it make sense to give the player an ultimatum of either signing a contract that he is unhappy with, or leaving the house into which he had already settled, without giving him the opportunity of having the contract examined by someone more qualified of appraising it?
You try to sound nice and professional here, but all I'm seeing is a lot of really poor damage control and fluffy words that contradict reality. You'd be better off simply saying, 'Yeah, we fucked up with Fuzer. We'll try to do better in future' instead of this. Also, kittens? Seriously?
If fuzer doesn't read the contract, or have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month then he can't negotiate it.
What was the purpose of fuzer's post if not to attack MoW? Upon being attacked they decided that they would offer to unconditionally rectify the reason the attack took place, Fuzer declined. This is what attacks are supposed to do, create some sort of response. Fuzer got a response both out of the community and the MoW. Might not have been the correct response entirely, but it was a positive attempt.
When the person being offered the ultimatum has had over a month to make adjustments to a part of that ultimatum then it makes complete sense.
If you notice, they also didn't say "Yeah, we fucked up with fuzer" they say "We made mistakes handling the fuzer situation and offer our sincere apologies to him as well as the entire community" which is a huge difference. I wonder how many of you would care if we found out that Fuzer was back there next week and all was forgiven. I bet all the esports dollars there would be grudges held over issues that didn't have anything to do with us in the least.
He couldn't have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month because MoW refused to provide a copy of the contract for anyone but himself to look at. How exactly is that his fault?
Also, however critical Fuzer is, he is hardly 'attacking' MoW. He gave his recollection of the events, and provided ample evidence supporting his side of the story. It's not an attack, it's an explanation of the situation from his point of view; the fact that it puts MoW in bad light is hardly his fault if the stuff is actually true. It's just very hard to take any of their statements seriously.
But several of his main arguments: (starving, not being part of another team house for 10 years, everyone having to stream 150 hours a month) were simply not true at all.
Food problem is verified by MoW and other players. Did he exagerate? Probably. But it still an issue. The 10 year can't create own house thing was confirmed by others. 150 hour stream was also confirmed by multiple players.
Just because MoW said they didn't enforce it (that's a bunch of BS, you don't put it in contract just for shits and giggles) doesn't mean it was not in the contract and was expected.
Fuzer claimed you couldn't join another gaming house, which is pretty different from creating one. Other players also confirmed streaming hours were negotiable and not at all "forced to stream 150 hours"
On September 14 2012 01:56 Salazarz wrote: So, if the streaming thing is 'for the benefit of players' and is 'totally negotiable', why do you have a written contract specifically addressing the exact amount of hours each player is required to stream? It's not something Fuzer alone said, other players mentioned it in passing as well.
And why are you saying that 'a refund was offered, which Fuzer refused'? You make it sound like it was a genuine, unconditional offer of a refund - but previous posts already confirmed that you put it forward as another demand - 'either take the cash and shut up, or you aren't getting the money', essentially.
Last but not least, how does it make sense to give the player an ultimatum of either signing a contract that he is unhappy with, or leaving the house into which he had already settled, without giving him the opportunity of having the contract examined by someone more qualified of appraising it?
You try to sound nice and professional here, but all I'm seeing is a lot of really poor damage control and fluffy words that contradict reality. You'd be better off simply saying, 'Yeah, we fucked up with Fuzer. We'll try to do better in future' instead of this. Also, kittens? Seriously?
If fuzer doesn't read the contract, or have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month then he can't negotiate it.
What was the purpose of fuzer's post if not to attack MoW? Upon being attacked they decided that they would offer to unconditionally rectify the reason the attack took place, Fuzer declined. This is what attacks are supposed to do, create some sort of response. Fuzer got a response both out of the community and the MoW. Might not have been the correct response entirely, but it was a positive attempt.
When the person being offered the ultimatum has had over a month to make adjustments to a part of that ultimatum then it makes complete sense.
If you notice, they also didn't say "Yeah, we fucked up with fuzer" they say "We made mistakes handling the fuzer situation and offer our sincere apologies to him as well as the entire community" which is a huge difference. I wonder how many of you would care if we found out that Fuzer was back there next week and all was forgiven. I bet all the esports dollars there would be grudges held over issues that didn't have anything to do with us in the least.
He couldn't have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month because MoW refused to provide a copy of the contract for anyone but himself to look at. How exactly is that his fault?
Also, however critical Fuzer is, he is hardly 'attacking' MoW. He gave his recollection of the events, and provided ample evidence supporting his side of the story. It's not an attack, it's an explanation of the situation from his point of view; the fact that it puts MoW in bad light is hardly his fault if the stuff is actually true. It's just very hard to take any of their statements seriously.
But several of his main arguments: (starving, not being part of another team house for 10 years, everyone having to stream 150 hours a month) were simply not true at all.
Food problem is verified by MoW and other players. Did he exagerate? Probably. But it still an issue. The 10 year can't create own house thing was confirmed by others. 150 hour stream was also confirmed by multiple players.
Just because MoW said they didn't enforce it (that's a bunch of BS, you don't put it in contract just for shits and giggles) doesn't mean it was not in the contract and was expected.
Fuzer claimed you couldn't join another gaming house, which is pretty different from creating one. Other players also confirmed streaming hours were negotiable and not at all "forced to stream 150 hours"
His claim was that he couldn't understand that part well (not native speaker) thus said what he thought it meant. It is a valid point and why he want his lawyer to look at it. If people give you a contract that says "150 hour streaming" how do you know it is negotiable and why does that make a difference anyway?
On September 14 2012 02:30 TheHansBecker wrote: "Sorry, you caught us forcing players to agree to an unconscionable contract.... We sincerely apologize."
More like, sorry you got caught and exposed...
Except the contract was negotiated with the original guests after they specifically set aside time to do so, and it was agreeable to those players. Surprise surprise, a pitchfork wielder hurled accusations of malicious intent despite not being informed. LOL this particular drama episode is especially pathetic. I hopeyou realize its people like you that Tasteless was shitting on when he said it's embarrassing to go on community sites and see the drama threads. As with him I truly feel embarrassed for the community right now.
Ugh, now we have 2 threads where people can shittalk Can't you (Fuzer and MoW) deal with this privately instead of making statements blaming the other?
MoW will never win this argument anyway, fuzer (obviously) posted his accusations first and people had about 3 hours (60 pages) of time to make up their minds that Mow is the bad guy. Anything that is posted is of course a lie, misinformation and what not -.-
On September 14 2012 02:45 Cheerio wrote: The worst part is the ultimatum to leave the house before 22.00. Nice way to through a guy out in the night in the foreign country.
Hey, it's before 22:00 not at 22:00 sharp. So he could just catch direct flight to Helsinki at 19:45
On September 14 2012 01:56 Salazarz wrote: So, if the streaming thing is 'for the benefit of players' and is 'totally negotiable', why do you have a written contract specifically addressing the exact amount of hours each player is required to stream? It's not something Fuzer alone said, other players mentioned it in passing as well.
And why are you saying that 'a refund was offered, which Fuzer refused'? You make it sound like it was a genuine, unconditional offer of a refund - but previous posts already confirmed that you put it forward as another demand - 'either take the cash and shut up, or you aren't getting the money', essentially.
Last but not least, how does it make sense to give the player an ultimatum of either signing a contract that he is unhappy with, or leaving the house into which he had already settled, without giving him the opportunity of having the contract examined by someone more qualified of appraising it?
You try to sound nice and professional here, but all I'm seeing is a lot of really poor damage control and fluffy words that contradict reality. You'd be better off simply saying, 'Yeah, we fucked up with Fuzer. We'll try to do better in future' instead of this. Also, kittens? Seriously?
If fuzer doesn't read the contract, or have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month then he can't negotiate it.
What was the purpose of fuzer's post if not to attack MoW? Upon being attacked they decided that they would offer to unconditionally rectify the reason the attack took place, Fuzer declined. This is what attacks are supposed to do, create some sort of response. Fuzer got a response both out of the community and the MoW. Might not have been the correct response entirely, but it was a positive attempt.
When the person being offered the ultimatum has had over a month to make adjustments to a part of that ultimatum then it makes complete sense.
If you notice, they also didn't say "Yeah, we fucked up with fuzer" they say "We made mistakes handling the fuzer situation and offer our sincere apologies to him as well as the entire community" which is a huge difference. I wonder how many of you would care if we found out that Fuzer was back there next week and all was forgiven. I bet all the esports dollars there would be grudges held over issues that didn't have anything to do with us in the least.
He couldn't have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month because MoW refused to provide a copy of the contract for anyone but himself to look at. How exactly is that his fault?
Also, however critical Fuzer is, he is hardly 'attacking' MoW. He gave his recollection of the events, and provided ample evidence supporting his side of the story. It's not an attack, it's an explanation of the situation from his point of view; the fact that it puts MoW in bad light is hardly his fault if the stuff is actually true. It's just very hard to take any of their statements seriously.
But several of his main arguments: (starving, not being part of another team house for 10 years, everyone having to stream 150 hours a month) were simply not true at all.
Food problem is verified by MoW and other players. Did he exagerate? Probably. But it still an issue. The 10 year can't create own house thing was confirmed by others. 150 hour stream was also confirmed by multiple players.
Just because MoW said they didn't enforce it (that's a bunch of BS, you don't put it in contract just for shits and giggles) doesn't mean it was not in the contract and was expected.
Fuzer claimed you couldn't join another gaming house, which is pretty different from creating one. Other players also confirmed streaming hours were negotiable and not at all "forced to stream 150 hours"
His claim was that he couldn't understand that part well (not native speaker) thus said what he thought it meant. It is a valid point and why he want his lawyer to look at it. If people give you a contract that says "150 hour streaming" how do you know it is negotiable and why does that make a difference anyway?
Read the OP:
2. Ministry of Win does not enforce on players the amount of hours they have to stream. It is a part of a business contract and both parties negotiate an agreement.
It obviously makes a difference as probably 20 pages of the last thread was devoted to complain how unhumane and counter-productive being forced to stream 150 hours a month is.
On September 14 2012 02:47 KadaverBB wrote: Ugh, now we have 2 threads where people can shittalk Can't you (Fuzer and MoW) deal with this privately instead of making statements blaming the other?
MoW will never win this argument anyway, fuzer (obviously) posted his accusations first and people had about 3 hours (60 pages) of time to make up their minds that Mow is the bad guy. Anything that is posted is of course a lie, misinformation and what not -.-
Problem is MoW did not refute any of Fuzer's claims. They posted a alternative point of view of the same claim but with no detail.
On September 14 2012 02:35 MenaceWarrior wrote: This isnt the first time Boss have been in scam´s on esports COD4 LAN SCAM (polish) so everyone whos saying he should get another change, this is his third one your giving to him
Tell me... do you really think that Fuzer was misinformed about paying for the whole month up front? MoW got in trouble because they did not sign anything beforehand. Implying that this was intended to be a scam or a theft is an overkill.
You're right, Fuzer cannot claim complete innocence in any of this. Given the bits of information posted and the interpretations of people knowledgeable on such issues (i.e. FXOBoss), you can definitely say Fuzer was an idiot to agreeing to such terms in the first place.
The thing is, his mental makeup (just like his BM nature some people keep bringing up) is irrelevant in the larger issue of the credibility of MoW's upper management. That COD4 LAN piece is very important in this regard.
On September 14 2012 01:56 Salazarz wrote: So, if the streaming thing is 'for the benefit of players' and is 'totally negotiable', why do you have a written contract specifically addressing the exact amount of hours each player is required to stream? It's not something Fuzer alone said, other players mentioned it in passing as well.
And why are you saying that 'a refund was offered, which Fuzer refused'? You make it sound like it was a genuine, unconditional offer of a refund - but previous posts already confirmed that you put it forward as another demand - 'either take the cash and shut up, or you aren't getting the money', essentially.
Last but not least, how does it make sense to give the player an ultimatum of either signing a contract that he is unhappy with, or leaving the house into which he had already settled, without giving him the opportunity of having the contract examined by someone more qualified of appraising it?
You try to sound nice and professional here, but all I'm seeing is a lot of really poor damage control and fluffy words that contradict reality. You'd be better off simply saying, 'Yeah, we fucked up with Fuzer. We'll try to do better in future' instead of this. Also, kittens? Seriously?
If fuzer doesn't read the contract, or have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month then he can't negotiate it.
What was the purpose of fuzer's post if not to attack MoW? Upon being attacked they decided that they would offer to unconditionally rectify the reason the attack took place, Fuzer declined. This is what attacks are supposed to do, create some sort of response. Fuzer got a response both out of the community and the MoW. Might not have been the correct response entirely, but it was a positive attempt.
When the person being offered the ultimatum has had over a month to make adjustments to a part of that ultimatum then it makes complete sense.
If you notice, they also didn't say "Yeah, we fucked up with fuzer" they say "We made mistakes handling the fuzer situation and offer our sincere apologies to him as well as the entire community" which is a huge difference. I wonder how many of you would care if we found out that Fuzer was back there next week and all was forgiven. I bet all the esports dollars there would be grudges held over issues that didn't have anything to do with us in the least.
He couldn't have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month because MoW refused to provide a copy of the contract for anyone but himself to look at. How exactly is that his fault?
Also, however critical Fuzer is, he is hardly 'attacking' MoW. He gave his recollection of the events, and provided ample evidence supporting his side of the story. It's not an attack, it's an explanation of the situation from his point of view; the fact that it puts MoW in bad light is hardly his fault if the stuff is actually true. It's just very hard to take any of their statements seriously.
But several of his main arguments: (starving, not being part of another team house for 10 years, everyone having to stream 150 hours a month) were simply not true at all.
Food problem is verified by MoW and other players. Did he exagerate? Probably. But it still an issue. The 10 year can't create own house thing was confirmed by others. 150 hour stream was also confirmed by multiple players.
Just because MoW said they didn't enforce it (that's a bunch of BS, you don't put it in contract just for shits and giggles) doesn't mean it was not in the contract and was expected.
Fuzer claimed you couldn't join another gaming house, which is pretty different from creating one. Other players also confirmed streaming hours were negotiable and not at all "forced to stream 150 hours"
His claim was that he couldn't understand that part well (not native speaker) thus said what he thought it meant. It is a valid point and why he want his lawyer to look at it. If people give you a contract that says "150 hour streaming" how do you know it is negotiable and why does that make a difference anyway?
2. Ministry of Win does not enforce on players the amount of hours they have to stream. It is a part of a business contract and both parties negotiate an agreement.
It obviously makes a difference as probably 20 pages of the last thread was devoted to complain how unhumane and counter-productive being forced to stream 150 hours a month is.
My point is MoW's claim does not make any sense. Fuzer obviously didn't came up with the 150 hour number, otherwise he wouldn't be upset. And why is it "a business contract" if they don't enforce it? Also, don't enforce something is NOT the same as not mandatory. Most work places do not enforce you work 40 hours a week, doesn't mean you don't need to.
It's really amazing how the more MoW talks the worse they look. Based on what the other pros at the house have said it seems like they're just learning to run a team house and everything is in flux as they try out new stuff (some of it successful, some of it not). That's honestly not that bad, if that's how it really is (and I don't see why Snute et. al. would lie).
The bigger problem to me seems to be that I'm not sure how capable MoW's management is after all these weird statements. It really isn't that hard to do semi-reasonable PR to deal with this situation, and they really come across as totally clueless and/or guilty.
If you couple incapable management with trying to learn to run a team house on the fly, then I don't see how this could possibly be a good training environment for the players there (especially if streaming is required). It's a good idea in theory, but if the people running it are trying to figure out how to run the house and present it properly on the fly, then I don't get why you'd want to pay to live there. It seems like a huge waste of money for the players.
Have to comment on the FXO guys thing about Eastern European mindset: I worked in Prague for three years, and even the most insignificant HR person thinks they are god, and will ride their rules and regulations (of which there are myriad) as far as it goes, that is until someone that is not part of the power struggle slaps their wrists.
On September 14 2012 02:47 KadaverBB wrote: Ugh, now we have 2 threads where people can shittalk Can't you (Fuzer and MoW) deal with this privately instead of making statements blaming the other?
MoW will never win this argument anyway, fuzer (obviously) posted his accusations first and people had about 3 hours (60 pages) of time to make up their minds that Mow is the bad guy. Anything that is posted is of course a lie, misinformation and what not -.-
wow, you are clearly terrible at understanding who's in the wrong when there are at least two points of view. Kittens at the end of the OP might give a hint, try it. And the first thread appeared over 20 hours before this one, you are terrible at understanding timezones too.
On September 14 2012 01:56 Salazarz wrote: So, if the streaming thing is 'for the benefit of players' and is 'totally negotiable', why do you have a written contract specifically addressing the exact amount of hours each player is required to stream? It's not something Fuzer alone said, other players mentioned it in passing as well.
And why are you saying that 'a refund was offered, which Fuzer refused'? You make it sound like it was a genuine, unconditional offer of a refund - but previous posts already confirmed that you put it forward as another demand - 'either take the cash and shut up, or you aren't getting the money', essentially.
Last but not least, how does it make sense to give the player an ultimatum of either signing a contract that he is unhappy with, or leaving the house into which he had already settled, without giving him the opportunity of having the contract examined by someone more qualified of appraising it?
You try to sound nice and professional here, but all I'm seeing is a lot of really poor damage control and fluffy words that contradict reality. You'd be better off simply saying, 'Yeah, we fucked up with Fuzer. We'll try to do better in future' instead of this. Also, kittens? Seriously?
If fuzer doesn't read the contract, or have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month then he can't negotiate it.
What was the purpose of fuzer's post if not to attack MoW? Upon being attacked they decided that they would offer to unconditionally rectify the reason the attack took place, Fuzer declined. This is what attacks are supposed to do, create some sort of response. Fuzer got a response both out of the community and the MoW. Might not have been the correct response entirely, but it was a positive attempt.
When the person being offered the ultimatum has had over a month to make adjustments to a part of that ultimatum then it makes complete sense.
If you notice, they also didn't say "Yeah, we fucked up with fuzer" they say "We made mistakes handling the fuzer situation and offer our sincere apologies to him as well as the entire community" which is a huge difference. I wonder how many of you would care if we found out that Fuzer was back there next week and all was forgiven. I bet all the esports dollars there would be grudges held over issues that didn't have anything to do with us in the least.
He couldn't have a professional look at the contract over the course of a month because MoW refused to provide a copy of the contract for anyone but himself to look at. How exactly is that his fault?
Also, however critical Fuzer is, he is hardly 'attacking' MoW. He gave his recollection of the events, and provided ample evidence supporting his side of the story. It's not an attack, it's an explanation of the situation from his point of view; the fact that it puts MoW in bad light is hardly his fault if the stuff is actually true. It's just very hard to take any of their statements seriously.
But several of his main arguments: (starving, not being part of another team house for 10 years, everyone having to stream 150 hours a month) were simply not true at all.
Food problem is verified by MoW and other players. Did he exagerate? Probably. But it still an issue. The 10 year can't create own house thing was confirmed by others. 150 hour stream was also confirmed by multiple players.
Just because MoW said they didn't enforce it (that's a bunch of BS, you don't put it in contract just for shits and giggles) doesn't mean it was not in the contract and was expected.
Fuzer claimed you couldn't join another gaming house, which is pretty different from creating one. Other players also confirmed streaming hours were negotiable and not at all "forced to stream 150 hours"
His claim was that he couldn't understand that part well (not native speaker) thus said what he thought it meant. It is a valid point and why he want his lawyer to look at it. If people give you a contract that says "150 hour streaming" how do you know it is negotiable and why does that make a difference anyway?
Read the OP:
2. Ministry of Win does not enforce on players the amount of hours they have to stream. It is a part of a business contract and both parties negotiate an agreement.
It obviously makes a difference as probably 20 pages of the last thread was devoted to complain how unhumane and counter-productive being forced to stream 150 hours a month is.
My point is MoW's claim does not make any sense. Fuzer obviously didn't came up with the 150 hour number, otherwise he wouldn't be upset. And why is it "a business contract" if they don't enforce it? Also, don't enforce something is NOT the same as not mandatory. Most work places do not enforce you work 40 hours a week, doesn't mean you don't need to.
Also, I may have problem with mandatory streaming (why would a house people pay to go and get better require people stream, which have not shown to make people better?) but that's a separate issue. If it's in the contract, you understand it, you sign it, you do it.
What I HAVE a problem with is not tell people there is stream requirement (that nearly same as a full time job) before they got there. Which is confirmed by other players.
On September 14 2012 02:35 MenaceWarrior wrote: This isnt the first time Boss have been in scam´s on esports COD4 LAN SCAM (polish) so everyone whos saying he should get another change, this is his third one your giving to him
Tell me... do you really think that Fuzer was misinformed about paying for the whole month up front? MoW got in trouble because they did not sign anything beforehand. Implying that this was intended to be a scam or a theft is an overkill.
You're right, Fuzer cannot claim complete innocence in any of this. Given the bits of information posted and the interpretations of people knowledgeable on such issues (i.e. FXOBoss), you can definitely say Fuzer was an idiot to agreeing to such terms in the first place.
The thing is, his mental makeup (just like his BM nature some people keep bringing up) is irrelevant in the larger issue of the credibility of MoW's upper management. That COD4 LAN piece is very important in this regard.
Upper management, yeah right... you realize that it is just a couple of guys running the whole thing, not some ExxxonPepsiGM conglomerate?
They tried something new (I never heard about another house working this way) and it seems they did pretty ok with most of the players that live(d) at MoW. They run into some unforeseen difficulties with Fuzer and failed to deal with them in a reasonable fashion.
They do blame themselves for failing do to so and promise to make amendments, I have no idea what shady stuff is left.
Yes, they failed with the lawyer and with the refund timing too. What else is there to do?
This entire thread has people talking about kittens. Can we please talk about the actual issue at hand and not the cute gimmick they put at the end to lighten up the mood?
On September 14 2012 02:53 Swords wrote: It's really amazing how the more MoW talks the worse they look. Based on what the other pros at the house have said it seems like they're just learning to run a team house and everything is in flux as they try out new stuff (some of it successful, some of it not). That's honestly not that bad, if that's how it really is (and I don't see why Snute et. al. would lie).
The bigger problem to me seems to be that I'm not sure how capable MoW's management is after all these weird statements. It really isn't that hard to do semi-reasonable PR to deal with this situation, and they really come across as totally clueless and/or guilty.
If you couple incapable management with trying to learn to run a team house on the fly, then I don't see how this could possibly be a good training environment for the players there (especially if streaming is required). It's a good idea in theory, but if the people running it are trying to figure out how to run the house and present it properly on the fly, then I don't get why you'd want to pay to live there. It seems like a huge waste of money for the players.
Except all the other players who have commented have said they enjoyed their stay and they definitely improved. What's that, you didn't know that? Oh, so you're making blanket statements without being informed? I can't imagine that happening, I mean this is a reasonable and productive community reaction to a travesty of justice, after all.
I am so outraged, I just can't stand by idly in this time of moral peril while sinister esports bosses exploit young children like slave labor.
The kittens might be a fantastic touch had you actually addressed the concerns of people, instead it seems the issues were dodged and it was all pr-speak. I think this made the kittens a bad choice.
On September 14 2012 02:53 Swords wrote: It's really amazing how the more MoW talks the worse they look. Based on what the other pros at the house have said it seems like they're just learning to run a team house and everything is in flux as they try out new stuff (some of it successful, some of it not). That's honestly not that bad, if that's how it really is (and I don't see why Snute et. al. would lie).
The bigger problem to me seems to be that I'm not sure how capable MoW's management is after all these weird statements. It really isn't that hard to do semi-reasonable PR to deal with this situation, and they really come across as totally clueless and/or guilty.
If you couple incapable management with trying to learn to run a team house on the fly, then I don't see how this could possibly be a good training environment for the players there (especially if streaming is required). It's a good idea in theory, but if the people running it are trying to figure out how to run the house and present it properly on the fly, then I don't get why you'd want to pay to live there. It seems like a huge waste of money for the players.
Except all the other players who have commented have said they enjoyed their stay and they definitely improved.
Well since they signed that terrible contract that forbids them to do a shitload of stuff and includes only God knows what other stupid clauses... I'm not convinced.
This has been received as a stalling tactics and brought unnecessary and unprofessional tension to the conversation, which in retrospect could have been avoided especially on our side. Leading a company revolving around people requires unwavering patience and calm especially in tense situations and this is a major lesson for us in all our future dealings. Words unbefitting a gentleman have been said, fences have not been mended and as a result on Tuesday the 11th Samuli has been asked to either sign the contract or leave until 22:00. Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
(Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
Concerning the contract issue and the outrage it caused. MoW, I suggest you do the following: 1) Make an official statement that all the players will be realeased of all the clauses from the current contract after the new one is agreed. 2) Make the imortant points of the new contract public. You should do it anyway if you want new recruits to know what they are signing for, not that you'll have many.
On September 14 2012 01:33 Incomplet wrote: As humans we all make mistakes, the important thing is that we learn from them. Also as humans, we all deserve a second chance, this goes for both the organisation and player involved.
On September 14 2012 03:03 Iridium wrote: People getting annoyed from the kittens needs to take a serious look in the mirror. How can cute little furry kittens make you dislike the post?!
I think it's mostly because it seems to be making fun of a pretty serious situation, personally I think the community has once again shown that it will over-react to anything possible just for a bit of drama and eventually this will lead to the destruction of eSports as we know it.
but anyway, their were some pretty heavy allegations and MoW handled the responses poorly, this thread is what should have been posted straight away, without the kitten pandering, it's lame, this isn't reddit.
Things we as a community should take from situations like this are: 1. Stop overreacting at the slightest bit of drama, it's fucking pathetic and detrimental to everything we want to build. 2. Don't sign contracts you're not comfortable with, have a lawyer look them over. 3. Stop making sketchy contracts.
On September 14 2012 03:12 Cheerio wrote: Concerning the contract issue and the outrage it caused. MoW, I suggest you do the following: 1) Make an official statement that all the players will be realeased of all the clauses from the current contract after the new one is agreed. 2) Make the imortant points of the new contract public.
Now you're just being silly.
MoW is doing the right thing for the future in drafting a contract that makes sense and actually learning how to negotiate properly, but that doesn't mean that the other players didn't sign what they did.
This is way too late. You guys already made an statement and argue'd in the Fuzer thread. We have seen you guys talk on skype and how you treated Fuzer. This is not acceptable at all and i think you guys from MoW lost all ur trust because of this.
On September 14 2012 03:11 nikoYO wrote: good one lol
Hey to be fair, from that conversation we can say that he was offering a refund IF Fuzer had a receipt. I'm not sure its appropriate to say that Fuzer not having a receipt is the same thing as turning it down.
This has been received as a stalling tactics and brought unnecessary and unprofessional tension to the conversation, which in retrospect could have been avoided especially on our side. Leading a company revolving around people requires unwavering patience and calm especially in tense situations and this is a major lesson for us in all our future dealings. Words unbefitting a gentleman have been said, fences have not been mended and as a result on Tuesday the 11th Samuli has been asked to either sign the contract or leave until 22:00. Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
(Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
good one lol
yeah thanks for bringing it up. I almost forgot what an asshole Boss is. MoW you are not getting away from this while Boss remains at MoW. No fucking way.
Well I do like kittens. But this statement was much more well written and much better composed then the 2 prior ones. Mistakes sure have been made and its up to the community to be forgiving I guess. But I want to see how the situation is dealt with before I surrender to kitten photos. GIve Fuzer his money back for the second month, he did not accept it because it was under the terms that he could not write about theese incidents.
On September 14 2012 03:11 nikoYO wrote: good one lol
Hey to be fair, from that conversation we can say that he was offering a refund IF Fuzer had a receipt. I'm not sure its appropriate to say that Fuzer not having a receipt is the same thing as turning it down.
Don't exclude info from your official press release, but give it out through a third party like an e-sports article. Then give confirmation of that info the next day. It makes you look bad and unorganized.
(I'm talking about their claim that Fuzer turned down the refund)
This statement dodges around so many important things. It is a fruitless effort to restore reputation, and to me it does not sound genuine at all. Kind of reminds me of that BP(DP) Southpark episode . We are sorry!
Only way to convince me is by showing the contract. That is the only way for to determine if Fuzer just does not understand contracts, or that MoW is simply here to take advantage of SC2 players.
On September 14 2012 02:35 MenaceWarrior wrote: This isnt the first time Boss have been in scam´s on esports COD4 LAN SCAM (polish) so everyone whos saying he should get another change, this is his third one your giving to him
Tell me... do you really think that Fuzer was misinformed about paying for the whole month up front? MoW got in trouble because they did not sign anything beforehand. Implying that this was intended to be a scam or a theft is an overkill.
You're right, Fuzer cannot claim complete innocence in any of this. Given the bits of information posted and the interpretations of people knowledgeable on such issues (i.e. FXOBoss), you can definitely say Fuzer was an idiot to agreeing to such terms in the first place.
The thing is, his mental makeup (just like his BM nature some people keep bringing up) is irrelevant in the larger issue of the credibility of MoW's upper management. That COD4 LAN piece is very important in this regard.
Upper management, yeah right... you realize that it is just a couple of guys running the whole thing, not some ExxxonPepsiGM conglomerate?
They tried something new (I never heard about another house working this way) and it seems they did pretty ok with most of the players that live(d) at MoW. They run into some unforeseen difficulties with Fuzer and failed to deal with them in a reasonable fashion.
They do blame themselves for failing do to so and promise to make amendments, I have no idea what shady stuff is left.
Yes, they failed with the lawyer and with the refund timing too. What else is there to do?
Of course I realize it's just a couple of guys running the show. My wording is specific to not tarnish the reputations of other people involved in MoW like the live-in coach who people like LgNkarmy have good reviews for.
Why I'm critical of MoW's boss and supporters like yourself is that this guy has shown a history of scamming a major tournament. This second offense only came to light because Fuzer refused to take a bribe.
Maybe you're okay with people ripping others off as long as they "apologize," but repeat offenders should be blasted by the community in my book.
This has been received as a stalling tactics and brought unnecessary and unprofessional tension to the conversation, which in retrospect could have been avoided especially on our side. Leading a company revolving around people requires unwavering patience and calm especially in tense situations and this is a major lesson for us in all our future dealings. Words unbefitting a gentleman have been said, fences have not been mended and as a result on Tuesday the 11th Samuli has been asked to either sign the contract or leave until 22:00. Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
(Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
good one lol
yeah thanks for bringing it up. I almost forgot what an asshole Boss is. MoW you are not getting away from this while Boss remains at MoW. No fucking way.
I think you misunderstood the intent of the poster here. Fuzer tried to be smart and mouthed off about not signing the contract. Then Boss replied in kind. Clearly you have absolutely no idea what was his point and yet you call him an asshole.
About the statement - in my opinion, a little bit too late and I hate cats, though it is bringing reconciliation to the matter.
"Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down."
This is such bullshit IMO. You offered the refund AFTER you had the information that Fuzer was making this public. In other words you just wanted to silence him.
So you've essentially stolen 600€ from a person and now you're refusing to repay him because he made your unprofessionalism public?
Rofl this hate against MoW ur all blind or what. Fuzer goes to poland 1) He doesnt read contract 2) He pays 1200$ without asking for receipt or anything. 3) Then lives in house OVER a month. Wihtout sining contract. 4) They ask him to sing or it leave and he makes TL drama and everyone starts hating on mow?
On September 14 2012 03:28 Veriol wrote: Rofl this hate against MoW ur all blind or what. Fuzer goes to poland 1) He doesnt read contract 2) He pays 1200$ without asking for receipt or anything. 3) Then lives in house OVER a month. Wihtout sining contract. 4) They ask him to sing or it leave and he makes TL drama and everyone starts hating on mow?
On September 14 2012 03:28 Veriol wrote: Rofl this hate against MoW ur all blind or what. Fuzer goes to poland 1) He doesnt read contract 2) He pays 1200$ without asking for receipt or anything. 3) Then lives in house OVER a month. Wihtout sining contract. 4) They ask him to sing or it leave and he makes TL drama and everyone starts hating on mow?
What im i missing please.
Pitchforks, lots of pitchforks
And then stakes and fire, lots of stakes and fire. We got and burned our witch!
On September 14 2012 03:26 Cheerio wrote: Where can I get a list of MoW players? I wonna know which players exactly to dodge in streams and to cheer against.
You really are a hateful guy, arent you?
Start with LiquidRet and post everywhere across TL forum what trash player he is for living in the MoW. Give me a break....
I just dont understand this at all. Big names like Ret, Destiny, and Desrow, who are already doing good with streams and can make money on there own at home without any problems, who dont need this places help with the amount of people watching there stream, are going to agree with giving away there money as they stream plus rent money? how is streaming 5 hours a day even training? If any of them wanted to stream for that they could just do it at home. Ive got no idea whats going on in there but to me it seems like they get players like that to get popularity and then screw the no name people, thats how they make the money.
On September 14 2012 03:28 Veriol wrote: Rofl this hate against MoW ur all blind or what.
Oh boy, here we go.
On September 14 2012 03:28 Veriol wrote: Fuzer goes to poland
Yep
On September 14 2012 03:28 Veriol wrote: 1) He doesnt read contract
That is contradicted by the fact that MoW said in the first post of this thread that he had been providing revisions to the contract
On September 14 2012 03:28 Veriol wrote: 2) He pays 1200$ without asking for receipt or anything.
Yeah, kind of stupid
On September 14 2012 03:28 Veriol wrote: 3) Then lives in house OVER a month. Wihtout sining contract.
While negotiating the contract, you mean
On September 14 2012 03:28 Veriol wrote: 4) They ask him to sing or it leave and he makes TL drama and everyone starts hating on mow?
Yep
See what you fail to understand is that since Fuzer wasn't on a contract, he was simply paying rent. And in that situation MoW had no right to kick him out and keep his money, no matter how much of an idiot or asshole Fuzer was.
What they should have done was either (A) kick him out at the end of the month or (B) give him the money and show him the door. They eventually did (B), but only after Fuzer threatened to go public.
On September 14 2012 03:28 Veriol wrote: Rofl this hate against MoW ur all blind or what. Fuzer goes to poland 1) He doesnt read contract 2) He pays 1200$ without asking for receipt or anything. 3) Then lives in house OVER a month. Wihtout sining contract. 4) They ask him to sing or it leave and he makes TL drama and everyone starts hating on mow?
What im i missing please.
The part where the guy admits not fully understanding the contract and isn't given the option to have another person check it for him, I think!
On September 14 2012 03:28 Veriol wrote: Rofl this hate against MoW ur all blind or what. Fuzer goes to poland 1) He doesnt read contract 2) He pays 1200$ without asking for receipt or anything. 3) Then lives in house OVER a month. Wihtout sining contract. 4) They ask him to sing or it leave and he makes TL drama and everyone starts hating on mow?
What im i missing please.
1) He did, but as they said, there were some things that he wanted to change so they started the negotiations! 2) True - silly 3) Yea, he was invited like that - come, check. if you like it you can stay. He liked it but they didn't agreed to the terms of conbtract. He wanted to show it to a frend that studies law - they wanted a prove that he is a lawyer - that stupid. A person that advies you doesnt have to be a lawyer. They might want him to sign NDA, nothing more! 4) He didnt wanted to signt because they didnt came to an agreement about the contract and didnt want to change it anymore. And as he said,m he didnt undarstand all the things in it - he doesnt know law and english too well!!
They placed him, in a situation - sign a contract that's bad for you or leave Not signing, then go away, and that 500 euro - yea there is no prove of giving it to us. You wotn get it back!
Only after Fuzer said he will tell the story they wanted to give it back!
I can't believe how poorly Ministry of Win handled this at every stage. This explanation of theirs does absolutely nothing to allay my worry about what they'll be doing to possible new, incoming players.
In addition, no matter how I look at it, Ministry of Win had all the power to prevent this debacle at different points. Even if Fuzer still needed more time to have the contract looked over, I'm fine with Ministry of Win telling him to remove himself from the house until he gets it figured out, but why ask for credentials of the person he's giving the contract to? I don't understand what MoW's problem is with just letting his parents look over the contract if that what Fuzer chose to do. In the end, Fuzer and MoW still have to agree to terms. What is such a super secret that they don't want anyone else to see? They're just a gaming house, right?
On September 14 2012 03:26 ssxsilver wrote: Of course I realize it's just a couple of guys running the show. My wording is specific to not tarnish the reputations of other people involved in MoW like the live-in coach who people like LgNkarmy have good reviews for.
Why I'm critical of MoW's boss and supporters like yourself is that this guy has shown a history of scamming a major tournament. This second offense only came to light because Fuzer refused to take a bribe.
Maybe you're okay with people ripping others off as long as they "apologize," but repeat offenders should be blasted by the community in my book.
This is blown out of proportion. What exactly is "the second offense"? Unhealthy food? Noises late night in the house? Streaming schedule? Show your lawyers license crap?
I don't think any of the above is serious enough.
Or perhaps it is the"bribe" itself? And what if Fuzer knew that part of the house rules that early leave does not entitle him to get a refund? Would you still give him his money back unconditionally?
On September 14 2012 03:26 ssxsilver wrote: Of course I realize it's just a couple of guys running the show. My wording is specific to not tarnish the reputations of other people involved in MoW like the live-in coach who people like LgNkarmy have good reviews for.
Why I'm critical of MoW's boss and supporters like yourself is that this guy has shown a history of scamming a major tournament. This second offense only came to light because Fuzer refused to take a bribe.
Maybe you're okay with people ripping others off as long as they "apologize," but repeat offenders should be blasted by the community in my book.
This is blown out of proportion. What exactly is "the second offense"? Unhealthy food? Noises late night in the house? Streaming schedule? Show your lawyers license crap?
I don't think any of the above is serious enough.
Or perhaps it is the"bribe" itself? And what if Fuzer knew that part of the house rules that early leave does not entitle him to get a refund? Would you still give him his money back unconditionally?
Not disclose everything in the contract beforehand is serious offense. And this is confirmed by other players. Tries to coerce / threaten someone who don't fully understand the contract to sign it is serious offense. The silliness of "So I don't have your money" is pretty ridiculous and borderline fraud.
Again, I don't think MoW is evil or sinister unless other cases pop up. But they are pretty bad at running this stuff and handled this situation about as poorly as you can.
This has been received as a stalling tactics and brought unnecessary and unprofessional tension to the conversation, which in retrospect could have been avoided especially on our side. Leading a company revolving around people requires unwavering patience and calm especially in tense situations and this is a major lesson for us in all our future dealings. Words unbefitting a gentleman have been said, fences have not been mended and as a result on Tuesday the 11th Samuli has been asked to either sign the contract or leave until 22:00. Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
(Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
good one lol
yeah thanks for bringing it up. I almost forgot what an asshole Boss is. MoW you are not getting away from this while Boss remains at MoW. No fucking way.
Then Boss replied in kind. Clearly you have absolutely no idea what was his point and yet you call him an asshole.
Yes I did. That was not "replying" in kind, that was a deliberate attempt at committing a fraud, and a stupid one. Fazer was defending his right for a compensation which was due to him unless he signed some dumb contract, which he did not and pointed it out.
On September 14 2012 03:41 scypio wrote: And what if Fuzer knew that part of the house rules that early leave does not entitle him to get a refund? Would you still give him his money back unconditionally?
The house rules that he didn't sign, you mean?
You can't enforce the rules of a contract that the person didn't agree to.
On September 14 2012 03:28 Veriol wrote: Rofl this hate against MoW ur all blind or what. Fuzer goes to poland 1) He doesnt read contract 2) He pays 1200$ without asking for receipt or anything. 3) Then lives in house OVER a month. Wihtout sining contract. 4) They ask him to sing or it leave and he makes TL drama and everyone starts hating on mow?
What im i missing please.
Did you read anything in the two seperate threads on the subject besides the first few posts?
1) Non-native English speaker receives contract and reads it well enough to decide on his own that most of the contract is bullshit. Upon realizing this MoW revised the contract as request by Fuzer, which then Fuzer requested to be viewed by a lawyer for approval - which anyone SHOULD DO instead of blindly signing. This is his job, he's not just going there to play around and waste time.
2) Instead of letting Fuzer get the contract to a lawyer to look at, MoW requests the Lawyer's license before sending the document to be looked at. This is obviously bullshit as if Fuzer had requested his mom or anyone, even the fucking Hobo down the street to look at the contract - that should have been fine.
3) He pays 2 months worth of rent as a show of good faith to the house while the contract is being worked over. During this time if MoW really wanted to they could have signed partial agreements and then work out the areas of the contract in question at a previous date since they already had two months worth of pay from him.
4) I have a feeling most of the players that joined the house blindly signed this contract and are slowly also realizing that they maybe should have read it too.
How can you possible attack someone for not being a big enough tool to sign a legally binding contract before understanding what is required from it?
On September 14 2012 03:28 Veriol wrote: Rofl this hate against MoW ur all blind or what. Fuzer goes to poland 1) He doesnt read contract 2) He pays 1200$ without asking for receipt or anything. 3) Then lives in house OVER a month. Wihtout sining contract. 4) They ask him to sing or it leave and he makes TL drama and everyone starts hating on mow?
What im i missing please.
I guess you are the blind one, maybe read everything instead of making conclusions that are wrong.
This has been received as a stalling tactics and brought unnecessary and unprofessional tension to the conversation, which in retrospect could have been avoided especially on our side. Leading a company revolving around people requires unwavering patience and calm especially in tense situations and this is a major lesson for us in all our future dealings. Words unbefitting a gentleman have been said, fences have not been mended and as a result on Tuesday the 11th Samuli has been asked to either sign the contract or leave until 22:00. Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
(Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
good one lol
yeah thanks for bringing it up. I almost forgot what an asshole Boss is. MoW you are not getting away from this while Boss remains at MoW. No fucking way.
Then Boss replied in kind. Clearly you have absolutely no idea what was his point and yet you call him an asshole.
Yes I did. That was not "replying" in kind, that was a deliberate attempt at committing a fraud, and a stupid one. Fazer was defending his right for a compensation which was due to him unless he signed some dumb contract, which he did not and pointed it out.
Agree with this guy 100%! They were basically trying to keep Fuzer's money against the law! They "acted nice" after Fuzer threaten to post the situation. And "nice" isn't the right word since he threatened him with the NDA!!
On September 14 2012 03:41 scypio wrote: And what if Fuzer knew that part of the house rules that early leave does not entitle him to get a refund? Would you still give him his money back unconditionally?
The house rules that he didn't sign, you mean?
You can't enforce the rules of a contract that the person didn't agree to.
This is what MoW wrote in the OP:
"The fee of 2 500 PLN (circa €600 or $785) is charged up front for full months of all inclusive stay in the house. This is the first consideration the players are presented with before coming to the house"
If he was informed about it in the first place and moved into the house I would assume he at least verbally agreed to that rule. Verbal contract is binding.
As someone else just said - he paid for 2 months. Why are they trying to force him to sign a contract at the beginning of the second month, and tell him that he either signs or has to leave? If he's paid for 2 months - then they should tell him towards the end of the month:
"Hey, you've been here two months as per your payment - please sign the contract or we cannot let you stay the next month."
This is the most odd part to me. There was absolutely no reason to accept two months payment if you don't intend on letting them stay the second month without coercion.
This has been received as a stalling tactics and brought unnecessary and unprofessional tension to the conversation, which in retrospect could have been avoided especially on our side. Leading a company revolving around people requires unwavering patience and calm especially in tense situations and this is a major lesson for us in all our future dealings. Words unbefitting a gentleman have been said, fences have not been mended and as a result on Tuesday the 11th Samuli has been asked to either sign the contract or leave until 22:00. Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
(Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
good one lol
yeah thanks for bringing it up. I almost forgot what an asshole Boss is. MoW you are not getting away from this while Boss remains at MoW. No fucking way.
Then Boss replied in kind. Clearly you have absolutely no idea what was his point and yet you call him an asshole.
Yes I did. That was not "replying" in kind, that was a deliberate attempt at committing a fraud, and a stupid one. Fazer was defending his right for a compensation which was due to him unless he signed some dumb contract, which he did not and pointed it out.
Then how Fazer was entitled to claim his money back when he had no confirmation? On a gentleman agreement? Boss could easily say that he is trying to extort the money. Isnt it a bit dumb too?
a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
What an underhanded way to put it. This statement doesn't refute that you at first REFUSED to pay the guy back and then after being threatened offered to refund the cash.
Yeah, this is what just makes me furious. The fact that they offered to pay only AFTER fuzer decided to go public is the most disgusting thing.
this is the one thing that pisses me off. i don't have any big gripe with the rest of it, but this is just plain bullshit. the one thing they should deliver on they did not. until they solve this in a respectable fashion mow's reputation is tainted.
On September 14 2012 03:41 scypio wrote: And what if Fuzer knew that part of the house rules that early leave does not entitle him to get a refund? Would you still give him his money back unconditionally?
The house rules that he didn't sign, you mean?
You can't enforce the rules of a contract that the person didn't agree to.
This is what MoW wrote in the OP:
"The fee of 2 500 PLN (circa €600 or $785) is charged up front for full months of all inclusive stay in the house. This is the first consideration the players are presented with before coming to the house"
If he was informed about it in the first place and moved into the house I would assume he at least verbally agreed to that rule. Verbal contract is binding.
And what is the verbally-agreed-upon method of compensation should MoW terminate the full months' inclusive stay?
Don't answer that, by the way, because it's obvious there wasn't one.
MoW still failed and hard. 1. They posted total FAIL press release. 2. They don't comment, why you can't join as coach or found teamhouse for 10 years. Why this?. 3. Boss realy realy should get fired. First he said that Fuzer didn't paid his money. HE LIED. Then he offerent money to get Fuzer silence, you know what that is? Corruption. Most of boss's post was total lies or total bullshit. WHATS WRONG WITH HIM? 4. They did not write real press release until community wanted it.
"In conclusion, the Ministry of Win would like to apologize the whole e-sport community, the players, the viewers, everyone related to the Starcraft 2 scene and especially we apologize to Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen. Mistakes have been made and unfortunately time cannot be turned back. We are aware that as professionals, we should not let emotions take control over us and the whole situation should not have happened in the first place. After all we are here to support and help e-sports grow.
We are making an effort to prevent such a situation from ever happening again. A revised wording of the contract is being developed and a more clear contractual procedure devised. We hope that other players will benefit from existance of our house and our e-sport venture will help advance their careers. Virgil said “Hard work conquers all” — so we will do our best to make it happen."
I posted this in the original thread yesterday -
On September 13 2012 09:50 GuitarBizarre wrote: Ministry of Win's best action right now, REGARDLESS OF WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE TAKEN PLACE is just to resolve this with Fuzer, have Fuzer make a statement that the matter has been resolved and he's apologetic towards MoW for causing them trouble, despite the circumstances, and then MOW release a statement somewaht like the following:
"We, the Ministry of Win, would like to make a further statement, regarding the happenings with Fuzer.
Now that the details, many of which we did not intend to become public, have been released, we realise that at times there have been things said and actions taken which are unbecoming of the image we wish to build and the training environment we wish to provide.
We have discussed and resolved with Fuzer the issues, and we're pleased to report that after a more level headed discussion, we have agreed terms and refunded to Fuzer the portion of his payment which we have mutually agreed constitutes a reasonable amount for the portion of services we will not be providing to him.
We will also be looking to move forward and learn from this. We hope to provide a much less confusing contractual environment for our players and staff in future, and we will be looking at revising wording and terms in our contracts moving forward.
We will also certainly look at instituting a proper system of payment, whereby situations like this one, arising from a player living in the house without having signed his contract prior, will not occur.
We would like to apologise to all Starcraft fans, but we hope that Fuzer's most recent post will show you there is no bad blood between us, and in future, the testimonials of those players still in the house, and the many more we hope will follow them, will prove to you that we are a respectable organisation dedicated to providing Starcraft and the foreign scene with the best training and opportunities we can, at the highest levels"
I have one minor quibble with this: Has Fuzer had his refund offered again, in order to resolve the issue on both sides?
I'll happily accept that this statement is basically exactly what I was asking for, and I'm very happy with MoW's apparent contrition and acceptance of responsibility. It does a lot for them in my eyes.
But I don't want to hear that Fuzer is still out in the cold, unfortunately.
Regardless, very much a step in the right direction.
On September 14 2012 03:54 bonifaceviii wrote: And what is the verbally-agreed-upon method of compensation should MoW terminate the full months' inclusive stay? Don't answer that, by the way, because it's obvious there wasn't one.
He had a month to read into the house rules to find it out. It's not like it fell out of the blue sky, eh?
On September 14 2012 03:54 bonifaceviii wrote: And what is the verbally-agreed-upon method of compensation should MoW terminate the full months' inclusive stay? Don't answer that, by the way, because it's obvious there wasn't one.
He had a month to read into the house rules to find it out. It's not like it fell out of the blue sky, eh?
If MoW would just give Fuzer his second month's rent back, I would be satisfied. Or at least make it clear that Fuzer can receive it at any point within the next month, giving Fuzer the opportunity 1) Get his money back or 2) Make a statement by not taking it.
On September 14 2012 03:54 bonifaceviii wrote: And what is the verbally-agreed-upon method of compensation should MoW terminate the full months' inclusive stay? Don't answer that, by the way, because it's obvious there wasn't one.
He had a month to read into the house rules to find it out. It's not like it fell out of the blue sky, eh?
On September 14 2012 01:26 Stropheum wrote: I don't understand why this thread is so poorly recieved. It seems like Fuzer had all the time in the world to revise his contract and only waited until he was out of time to actually ask for a consultation. On top of that, he didn't seem to understand any of the terms he was agreeing to or the fact that he was paying by month BECAUSE he hadn't yet signed a contract agreeing to the flat fee, and his experience prior to that was actually designed as more of a tour/flavor of the experience to help sway his decision in a more timely manner (which it clearly didn't)
All for ministry of win on this one. You guys don't need your reputation tarnished over this. People need to make sure they take care of their shit before sitting down to play every day.
Uh, according to Fuzer, MoW was not sending the legal documents to his lawyer and were demanding to see law credentials, etc. So, if anything, it sounds like MoW was dragging it out. And if someone won't let your lawyer review legal documents you pretty much know they are trying to do something shady.
And the "refund" that they said they offered was only offered after Fuzer said he was going to be revealing all this information to the public - aka, they were trying to shut him up about their shadiness.
So it seems pretty obvious that MoW is in the wrong, especially after seeing the way MoW Boss talked to Fuzer...
On September 14 2012 03:54 bonifaceviii wrote: And what is the verbally-agreed-upon method of compensation should MoW terminate the full months' inclusive stay? Don't answer that, by the way, because it's obvious there wasn't one.
He had a month to read into the house rules to find it out. It's not like it fell out of the blue sky, eh?
"Read into"? What does that even mean?
I meant "read through".
So you don't disagree that Fuzer agreed to pay rent, and then would have had to sign the contract in order to consent to forfeiting his rent in the case of him getting kicked out?
On September 14 2012 03:54 bonifaceviii wrote: And what is the verbally-agreed-upon method of compensation should MoW terminate the full months' inclusive stay? Don't answer that, by the way, because it's obvious there wasn't one.
He had a month to read into the house rules to find it out. It's not like it fell out of the blue sky, eh?
"Read into"? What does that even mean?
I meant "read through".
So you don't disagree that Fuzer agreed to pay rent, and then would have had to sign the contract in order to consent to forfeiting his rent in the case of him getting kicked out?
I think you got it wrong. Maybe he would have to had to sign the contract in order to be entitled to get his money back in the case of him getting kicked out. Otherwise he had no grounds to get his money back, other than verbal agreement.
starting to feel bad for everyone living in that house having to deal with such unprofessionalism from the people who own the house, while being in the house in the same time as all this is going on. really disappointing stuff, looked so promising
You guys need to open your eyes and realize that this text was written by a lawyer and then they gathered the pictures of kittens. They're trying to clear their names in the eyes of the law and in the eyes of all who are interested in esports.
On September 14 2012 03:28 Veriol wrote: Rofl this hate against MoW ur all blind or what. Fuzer goes to poland 1) He doesnt read contract 2) He pays 1200$ without asking for receipt or anything. 3) Then lives in house OVER a month. Wihtout sining contract. 4) They ask him to sing or it leave and he makes TL drama and everyone starts hating on mow?
What im i missing please.
Did you read anything in the two seperate threads on the subject besides the first few posts?
1) Non-native English speaker receives contract and reads it well enough to decide on his own that most of the contract is bullshit. Upon realizing this MoW revised the contract as request by Fuzer, which then Fuzer requested to be viewed by a lawyer for approval - which anyone SHOULD DO instead of blindly signing. This is his job, he's not just going there to play around and waste time.
2) Instead of letting Fuzer get the contract to a lawyer to look at, MoW requests the Lawyer's license before sending the document to be looked at. This is obviously bullshit as if Fuzer had requested his mom or anyone, even the fucking Hobo down the street to look at the contract - that should have been fine.
3) He pays 2 months worth of rent as a show of good faith to the house while the contract is being worked over. During this time if MoW really wanted to they could have signed partial agreements and then work out the areas of the contract in question at a previous date since they already had two months worth of pay from him.
4) I have a feeling most of the players that joined the house blindly signed this contract and are slowly also realizing that they maybe should have read it too.
How can you possible attack someone for not being a big enough tool to sign a legally binding contract before understanding what is required from it?
Everythin' in this post. There is no point attackin' Ministry of Win. They are a business, they make business decisions. How they went about these decisions may have been inappropriate (I don't know Polish Business, I don't have a degree in Business), but they did what they thought was in their best interest. Multiple companies do this. Refuse to reimburse for any damages suffered until you threaten to expose them and then all of a sudden they want to fork over everythin' they owe in a heartbeat. Its a common business practice. We all would hope eSports would be different, but in the end its all a business. Fuzer is the real winner in this situation currently because of his hesitation to sign a contract that he didn't trust and wantin' a lawyer to look it over. We should be praisin' him for havin' a brain instead of the people bashin' callin' him an idiot etc...
On September 14 2012 03:54 bonifaceviii wrote: And what is the verbally-agreed-upon method of compensation should MoW terminate the full months' inclusive stay? Don't answer that, by the way, because it's obvious there wasn't one.
He had a month to read into the house rules to find it out. It's not like it fell out of the blue sky, eh?
"Read into"? What does that even mean?
I meant "read through".
So you don't disagree that Fuzer agreed to pay rent, and then would have had to sign the contract in order to consent to forfeiting his rent in the case of him getting kicked out?
I think you got it wrong. Maybe he would have to had to sign the contract in order to be entitled to get his money back in the case of him getting kicked out. Otherwise he had no grounds to get his money back, other than verbal agreement.
I thought the contract states specficially - "Each months rent is paid in full and no refunds." In consideration, MoW's statement is that they present this to the incoming player before they arrive, so I don't think whether it is in the contract or not matters.
However - if they present this to the incoming player before they arrive, how can they force a player to choose between leaving or signing a contract? That's coercion - holding the worth of the money hostage until the player signs. It's one thing if they accepted one month and told the player that he cannot stay for the next month unless he signs the contract. It's another if they accepted two months of pay, and then in the middle decide to play hardball.
LoL, nice kitty pictures, what a way to misdirect attention. Not to mention the press release addressed none of the core issues the community raised.
What do you even mean by a refund was offered, and rejected? You offered to pay Fuzer back ONLY AFTER he threatened to go public with this incident, as per Fuzer's Skype screenshot indicates.
Try including some truth instead of sugarcoating or conveniently omitting details.
On September 14 2012 03:41 scypio wrote: And what if Fuzer knew that part of the house rules that early leave does not entitle him to get a refund? Would you still give him his money back unconditionally?
The house rules that he didn't sign, you mean?
You can't enforce the rules of a contract that the person didn't agree to.
This is what MoW wrote in the OP:
"The fee of 2 500 PLN (circa €600 or $785) is charged up front for full months of all inclusive stay in the house. This is the first consideration the players are presented with before coming to the house"
If he was informed about it in the first place and moved into the house I would assume he at least verbally agreed to that rule. Verbal contract is binding.
that verbal contract doesnt say anything about keeping the deposit if MoW decide to terminate it before its end. This was pointed out numerous times, if you accept a payment upfront you are committed to deliver the services. If the player picks up the bags and leaves you keep the money, if you cant have him stay because... he is irritating, you return him money. Actually they should return him the whole mothly fee, he is being nice demanding only for the days left.
I think TL is maybe making a bit to much drama about this. I think their overall idea was nice but they made some mistakes here and there. (it sounds like their a bit noobish in leading a gaming house haha but yeah how do you get expierence in doing so).
On September 14 2012 04:05 bonifaceviii wrote: So you don't disagree that Fuzer agreed to pay rent, and then would have had to sign the contract in order to consent to forfeiting his rent in the case of him getting kicked out?
What the article says is that Polish Register of Unlawful Provisions contains one, that states that the right for compensation for a service that was not provided (or was provided in part) cannot be revoked by a provision in the contract.
So it seems that MoW terms could be challenged in court. I wonder if they new it though.
Now that I know about that provision in the registry I would say that MoW is in fact obliged to pay Fuzer back whether he knew about the rule or not.
"We admit we had shifty dealings and were glad to keep doing shifty things until it became public. We are deeply sorry anyone had to find out about this."
On September 14 2012 03:54 bonifaceviii wrote: And what is the verbally-agreed-upon method of compensation should MoW terminate the full months' inclusive stay? Don't answer that, by the way, because it's obvious there wasn't one.
He had a month to read into the house rules to find it out. It's not like it fell out of the blue sky, eh?
"Read into"? What does that even mean?
I meant "read through".
So you don't disagree that Fuzer agreed to pay rent, and then would have had to sign the contract in order to consent to forfeiting his rent in the case of him getting kicked out?
I think you got it wrong. Maybe he would have to had to sign the contract in order to be entitled to get his money back in the case of him getting kicked out. Otherwise he had no grounds to get his money back, other than verbal agreement.
I thought the contract states specficially - "Each months rent is paid in full and no refunds." In consideration, MoW's statement is that they present this to the incoming player before they arrive, so I don't think whether it is in the contract or not matters.
However - if they present this to the incoming player before they arrive, how can they force a player to choose between leaving or signing a contract? That's coercion - holding the worth of the money hostage until the player signs. It's one thing if they accepted one month and told the player that he cannot stay for the next month unless he signs the contract. It's another if they accepted two months of pay, and then in the middle decide to play hardball.
What I meant was that he would have at least some confirmation of closing the deal. And if the contract has "no refunds" clause I am sure they could reach some kind of an agreement here. Now it is too hard to tell who was doing it in bad faith, it could be even both sides.
Very dissapointed with MoW these past few days. Statement doesn't do anything for me, still hungry for answers, and very dissapointed with these "o look heres an interview forget the problem, O here are some kittens forget the problem"
What exactly is the affiliation between "boss guy" (kropekkk?) and MoW? It seems to me that there are two parts to this. One thing is the managing of the contract, which while sad is not exactly a catastrophe.
The other thing is that if kropekkk is boss guy, and these allegations are true, he seriously seems to be a crook. 1. Tried to be a dick and steal money here 2. is having a history of being a really shady guy with missing money. Do not understand polish, but google translate for the article header is "The stolen money for ESC1 few words". Quote from source: "Back in 2011 he was accused of of stealing and lying, he blamed his failures on incompetence and being "young and stupid" (his own words)." + Show Spoiler +
On September 14 2012 04:05 bonifaceviii wrote: So you don't disagree that Fuzer agreed to pay rent, and then would have had to sign the contract in order to consent to forfeiting his rent in the case of him getting kicked out?
What the article says is that Polish Register of Unlawful Provisions contains one, that states that the right for compensation for a service that was not provided (or was provided in part) cannot be revoked by a provision in the contract.
So it seems that MoW terms could be challenged in court. I wonder if they new it though.
Now that I know about that provision in the registry I would say that MoW is in fact obliged to pay Fuzer back whether he knew about the rule or not.
I am not sure it would apply here cause they didn't sign a contract - there was no deal about providing the service. For all we know with "good" witnesses MoW could even deny the fact that he was staying there.
No proof of residency and/or payment is just asking for trouble. Still doesn't legitimize MoW's actions, seems less like a mistake and more like exploitation.
The statement is ok, but the photos at the end are just stupid. (I mean either you should make a serious statement or you dont care about the drama...)
Since other players are happy this seems to be a personal problem.
The kitten thing makes me give 0 legitimacy to their business
not only was posting a bunch of kitten pictures stupid but it was intentionally meant to detract attention away from the press release that said absolutely nothing in there defence...
I was really on the fence with this whole who was right and wrong in this situation but i have not seen one piece of evidence that says MoW was in the right at all
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
On September 14 2012 04:28 Roman666 wrote: I am not sure it would apply here cause they didn't sign a contract - there was no deal about providing the service. For all we know with "good" witnesses MoW could even deny the fact that he was staying there.
Yeah, he could also wake up in a bathtub filled with icecubes with his kidney removed. MoW messed that up and apparently their contract is also invalid as far as the refund part goes (could be challenged in court).
2. Ministry of Win does not enforce on players the amount of hours they have to stream. It is a part of a business contract and both parties negotiate an agreement. We understand that players have come to the house for the sole purpose of perfecting their skills and thus we do not exact the agreed hours to the last detail. Most players view streaming as a key income source for themselves and so we give them the best opportunity to profit from it. Thanks to the strategic partnership between the Ministry of Win and Twitch.tv the CPM ratio is superior to that of an individual streaming on one’s own. Furthermore the players that had no Twitch.tv partnership prior to joining the house obtain a possibility to start monetizing their exposure instantly omitting the regular Twitch.tv partnership acquireing process.
to make clear what the point of this is, for people who are confused why they dont enforce this is this : IF you stream and make money from twitch.tv ,they are entitled to their cut, thats why they put it in the contract.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that this was all a misunderstanding.
Even then, the Ministry of Win is still at least partly to blame for the misunderstanding's happening; it's certainly unsettling for a player to come to a gaming house where he just wants a place to stay and practice, and then encounter all sorts of nasty surprises in the contract (or at least get the impression that there are nasty surprises).
If you guys really are good, you should be more clear and upfront about any big contractually binding obligations BEFORE players have to make the trip to your team house, and make your contract wording as clear and precise as possible.
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
i read it as it is. SHADY BUSINESS PRACTICE. if i would talk like that to my clients i could close my doors today.
On September 14 2012 04:28 Roman666 wrote: I am not sure it would apply here cause they didn't sign a contract - there was no deal about providing the service. For all we know with "good" witnesses MoW could even deny the fact that he was staying there.
Yeah, he could also wake up in a bathtub filled with icecubes with his kidney removed. MoW messed that up and apparently their contract is also invalid as far as the refund part goes (could be challenged in court).
That is absolutely correct, you can't put such clauses into the contact in the first place, here in Poland. The problem is they never signed it.
Many under 1000 posts tend to still defame MoW for little things. It would appear one mistake is enough for permanent failure to them, whether for offerin the money back or because their contract is written like they do in poland as FXOboss stated. Extremism to me and interesting it stays with the lower post count
MoW has cleared itself as best it can, fuzer certainly isn't wronged more than is possible to be rectified and MoW has said they made a mistake and sought to rectify it.
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
On September 14 2012 04:05 bonifaceviii wrote: So you don't disagree that Fuzer agreed to pay rent, and then would have had to sign the contract in order to consent to forfeiting his rent in the case of him getting kicked out?
What the article says is that Polish Register of Unlawful Provisions contains one, that states that the right for compensation for a service that was not provided (or was provided in part) cannot be revoked by a provision in the contract.
So it seems that MoW terms could be challenged in court. I wonder if they new it though.
Now that I know about that provision in the registry I would say that MoW is in fact obliged to pay Fuzer back whether he knew about the rule or not.
I am not sure it would apply here cause they didn't sign a contract - there was no deal about providing the service. For all we know with "good" witnesses MoW could even deny the fact that he was staying there.
are we figuring out who's right and wrong here or are we speculating on how you can fabricate evidence in court?
a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
What an underhanded way to put it. This statement doesn't refute that you at first REFUSED to pay the guy back and then after being threatened offered to refund the cash.
I'm laughing at all the people that are "forgiving" MoW when this still went on. Aweeee! Some guy posts a few cat pictures and thats all it takes to win you guys over even thought they're underhanded businessmen and probably (based on the skype chat) would have ripped fuzer off completely had fuzer had no proof or threats.
Nah, it's just not a big deal. People like you make it a big deal. No one actually cares.
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
On September 14 2012 01:36 Shikyo wrote: Hilarious. In the MoW Drama thread someone made a joke post about MoW statement probably being something totally unrelated with a "but here's kittens" ...
You guys really should 1. hire a lawyer who knows something about EU law 2. hire a PR person, just common sense could have done much better than you guys.
When I saw the kittens..
It's a little off-putting with how a lot of these guys deal with their relations.
On September 14 2012 04:45 Bippzy wrote: Many under 1000 posts tend to still defame MoW for little things. It would appear one mistake is enough for permanent failure to them, whether for offerin the money back or because their contract is written like they do in poland as FXOboss stated. Extremism to me and interesting it stays with the lower post count
MoW has cleared itself as best it can, fuzer certainly isn't wronged more than is possible to be rectified and MoW has said they made a mistake and sought to rectify it.
For one, the post count doesn't even matter. For two, it's not defamation if it's true...... MoW hasn't even cleared itself at all. It dodged all the core questions raised by the community and FXOBoSs.
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
That would solve a lot of problems. It is a big commitment and expense to go to another country. If there is something you are not agree with, you are better off knowing them before hop on a plane.
"1. First and foremost Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen or any other guest of the house has not been, or will be stopped from pursuing a professional e-sport carrier beyond the Ministry of Win by means of a legal document or a verbal agreement. Players absolutely can and will join teams, pro-houses, will also participate in tournaments and other e-sport ventures."
This is worded pretty poorly in my opinion. Should read
"First and foremost Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen or any other guest of the house, has not been, and will not be stopped from pursuing a professional e-sport carrier beyond the Ministry of Win by means of a legal document or a verbal agreement."
Another place that is worded poorly is
"2. Ministry of Win does not enforce on players the amount of hours they have to stream. It is a part of a business contract and both parties negotiate an agreement. We understand that players have come to the house for the sole purpose of perfecting their skills and thus we do not exact the agreed hours to the last detail. Most players view streaming as a key income source for themselves and so we give them the best opportunity to profit from it. Thanks to the strategic partnership between the Ministry of Win and Twitch.tv the CPM ratio is superior to that of an individual streaming on one’s own. Furthermore the players that had no Twitch.tv partnership prior to joining the house obtain a possibility to start monetizing their exposure instantly omitting the regular Twitch.tv partnership acquireing process."
This says they negotiate a contract/agreement about streaming, but MOW does not enforce it?
I realize these are small details, but things in a contract will be upheld to the literal interpretation. The fact that they made a press release this poorly worded and ambiguous right from the start, is an indication of why this whole mess started. I can understand why he would want to have the contract reviewed.
Which brings me to another point, if english is his second language. I can't understand why you wouldn't allow a translator to help him understand the contract clearly. Then again, if it is worded as poorly as this statement, I guess you would be better off with a lawyer......
Now all of this I could excuse as miscommunication, misunderstanding, paranoia and bad English. The one thing that I cannot excuse is the boss telling him that if he can't prove he paid money, then it didn't happen. It's not the legal ramifications I am bothered with here, it is the character of the person who would say something like that. In my opinion it's just not the kind of thing a decent, good intentioned person would say.
Just like in other businesses, different people get different deals. I'm sure Lady Gaga's next record deal will be better for her then the first time she signed with a major label. Much the same in starcraft, an unknown player will not and should not expect to get the same deal as a guy like MVP.
However, in this situation I feel it's not just a bad or poorly worded contract, but the attitude that they intend to treat this person as poorly as they feel they can get away with. I don't believe they would have tried to pull that on someone who has a pro-team and a management staff behind them. We are not talking about millions of dollars, this is quite a petty, shady way to handle such a trivial amount of money. I would not want a professional relationship, or enter into a contract I do not 100% understand, with someone like this.
One last thing, it never ceases to amaze me how easily people are distracted by kittens.
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
or they should have just sent Fuzer a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer. How's that even hard? How? Why does MoW even want Fuzer's lawyer's credentials or whatever? What does it even concern them? Let's just omit all that and post pictures of kittens
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
That was a bad move on both sides, not to sign the contract the moment he arrived there.
Now, since I got a lot of stuff to do at work in the upcoming week I would kindly request a week ban to resist the urge of posting. Thank you!
On September 14 2012 04:45 Bippzy wrote: Many under 1000 posts tend to still defame MoW for little things. It would appear one mistake is enough for permanent failure to them, whether for offerin the money back or because their contract is written like they do in poland as FXOboss stated. Extremism to me and interesting it stays with the lower post count
MoW has cleared itself as best it can, fuzer certainly isn't wronged more than is possible to be rectified and MoW has said they made a mistake and sought to rectify it.
dont have 1000 posts? your argument is invalid. nice touch.
and yeah its the little things..like the whole business model. come to the house. you can practice and have nothing to worry about. EXCEPT: boss makes party down stairs, not enough food, no coaching schedule.
this doesnt help either:
strongarming fuzer into the contract : you sign or your out (fuzer is 1000km from home)
blackmailing fuzer to keep his mouth shut or say goodbye to the money.
i guess what makes people angry is that MOW appeared to be taking it seriously and professional. but letting a know scammer run this thing is sad.
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
or they should have just sent Fuzer a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer. How's that even hard? How? Why does MoW even want Fuzer's lawyer's credentials or whatever? What does it even concern them? Let's just omit all that and post pictures of kittens
Or, you can just not give random people money. You know? It's kind of standard in life. Would you just give some random guy $500? No, but that's what fuzer did. Never signed the contract, so this is his problem. He's the one who fucked up. Sneaky or not, MoW>fuzer.
On September 14 2012 04:45 Bippzy wrote: Many under 1000 posts tend to still defame MoW for little things. It would appear one mistake is enough for permanent failure to them, whether for offerin the money back or because their contract is written like they do in poland as FXOboss stated. Extremism to me and interesting it stays with the lower post count
MoW has cleared itself as best it can, fuzer certainly isn't wronged more than is possible to be rectified and MoW has said they made a mistake and sought to rectify it.
funny how 1000 posts is a huge landmark for you when you are just over it.
I just wanted to remind you guys that Ministry of Win, as you all say, is a business project, a company created to MAKE MONEY FIRST, and then help e-sports grow. Now, as in every other business they should take very good care of their customers who in this case are sc2 players. If they keep (implying that it's not too late already) dealing with community->players->customers the way they do it right now they will lose all of the credibility they tried to acquire for the last couple of weeks.
To sum it up: WITHOUT players (such as Fuzer) Ministry of Win would not exist. It's the starcraft community (and especially pro gamers) the ones who run their business. Players could live and make good money just as good as if MoW hasn't been established, but MoW will not exist without the players willing to pay for their stay in the house.
Respect the players (your customers) or you might start looking for a new business to open in your luxury, modern house (maybe a brothel?).
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
or they should have just sent Fuzer a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer. How's that even hard? How? Why does MoW even want Fuzer's lawyer's credentials or whatever? What does it even concern them? Let's just omit all that and post pictures of kittens
Or, you can just not give random people money. You know? It's kind of standard in life. Would you just give some random guy $500? No, but that's what fuzer did. Never signed the contract, so this is his problem. He's the one who fucked up. Sneaky or not, MoW>fuzer.
except for MoW isn't a random someone, they've had notable community figures visiting their house, notable endorsements such as Razer, Twitch...etc.
With all those "credentials", you would expect some decency, honesty, and some ethics.....or not lol. Not even sneaky, this is shady, unethical business practice at best. I'd suggest you to watch DarkForce's video response or read what FXOBoSs has to say so you can understand the whole issue better.
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
or they should have just sent Fuzer a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer. How's that even hard? How? Why does MoW even want Fuzer's lawyer's credentials or whatever? What does it even concern them? Let's just omit all that and post pictures of kittens
Or, you can just not give random people money. You know? It's kind of standard in life. Would you just give some random guy $500? No, but that's what fuzer did. Never signed the contract, so this is his problem. He's the one who fucked up. Sneaky or not, MoW>fuzer.
except for MoW isn't a random someone, they've had notable community figures visiting their house, notable endorsements such as Razer, Twitch...etc.
With all those "credentials", you would expect some decency, honesty, and some ethics.....or not lol. Not even sneaky, this is shady, unethical business practice at best. I'd suggest you to watch DarkForce's video response or read what FXOBoSs has to say so you can understand the whole issue better.
No, I understand it. Just people acting stupid to other people acting stupid. Both sides here are pretty stupid. They both fucked up, I get that they aren't some random somebody. But holy fuck, don't send them money in the first place without a contract, that shit is shady. No idea why people are defending fuzer anyways
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
or they should have just sent Fuzer a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer. How's that even hard? How? Why does MoW even want Fuzer's lawyer's credentials or whatever? What does it even concern them? Let's just omit all that and post pictures of kittens
Or, you can just not give random people money. You know? It's kind of standard in life. Would you just give some random guy $500? No, but that's what fuzer did. Never signed the contract, so this is his problem. He's the one who fucked up. Sneaky or not, MoW>fuzer.
except for MoW isn't a random someone, they've had notable community figures visiting their house, notable endorsements such as Razer, Twitch...etc.
With all those "credentials", you would expect some decency, honesty, and some ethics.....or not lol. Not even sneaky, this is shady, unethical business practice at best. I'd suggest you to watch DarkForce's video response or read what FXOBoSs has to say so you can understand the whole issue better.
No, I understand it. Just people acting stupid to other people acting stupid. Both sides here are pretty stupid. They both fucked up, I get that they aren't some random somebody. But holy fuck, don't send them money in the first place without a contract, that shit is shady. No idea why people are defending fuzer anyways
No you don't understand it.. Did you even read the part where Fuzer requested a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer, but it was denied by MoW? and MoW, for some reason wanted to see the lawyer's credentials? IMO, wanting a lawyer to go through your contract before signing it isn't stupid at all.
hindsight is 20/20, but it doesn't change the fact that MoW's contract is full of shit and the Boss guy is a very shady individual..etc.
On September 14 2012 03:28 Veriol wrote: Rofl this hate against MoW ur all blind or what. Fuzer goes to poland 1) He doesnt read contract 2) He pays 1200$ without asking for receipt or anything. 3) Then lives in house OVER a month. Wihtout sining contract. 4) They ask him to sing or it leave and he makes TL drama and everyone starts hating on mow?
What im i missing please.
Did you read anything in the two seperate threads on the subject besides the first few posts?
1) Non-native English speaker receives contract and reads it well enough to decide on his own that most of the contract is bullshit. Upon realizing this MoW revised the contract as request by Fuzer, which then Fuzer requested to be viewed by a lawyer for approval - which anyone SHOULD DO instead of blindly signing. This is his job, he's not just going there to play around and waste time.
2) Instead of letting Fuzer get the contract to a lawyer to look at, MoW requests the Lawyer's license before sending the document to be looked at. This is obviously bullshit as if Fuzer had requested his mom or anyone, even the fucking Hobo down the street to look at the contract - that should have been fine.
3) He pays 2 months worth of rent as a show of good faith to the house while the contract is being worked over. During this time if MoW really wanted to they could have signed partial agreements and then work out the areas of the contract in question at a previous date since they already had two months worth of pay from him.
4) I have a feeling most of the players that joined the house blindly signed this contract and are slowly also realizing that they maybe should have read it too.
How can you possible attack someone for not being a big enough tool to sign a legally binding contract before understanding what is required from it?
Everythin' in this post. There is no point attackin' Ministry of Win. They are a business, they make business decisions. How they went about these decisions may have been inappropriate (I don't know Polish Business, I don't have a degree in Business), but they did what they thought was in their best interest. Multiple companies do this. Refuse to reimburse for any damages suffered until you threaten to expose them and then all of a sudden they want to fork over everythin' they owe in a heartbeat. Its a common business practice. We all would hope eSports would be different, but in the end its all a business. Fuzer is the real winner in this situation currently because of his hesitation to sign a contract that he didn't trust and wantin' a lawyer to look it over. We should be praisin' him for havin' a brain instead of the people bashin' callin' him an idiot etc...
It seems logical to think "they did what they thought was in their best interest" but sometimes peoples personalities simply shines through, for the better or worse.
Reputation can be extremely important and the impression I've gotten of MoW is that it's probably not something I would want to be involved with, even though I love the general concept and don't necessarily think they are evil or anything like that. That's how it is and to be honest, just seriously considering non compete claueses for something like this would probably make me doubt their competence.
Both sides are in the wrong, it is naive to blindly defend either side or raise pitchforks. honestly, this is a rather trivial issue, and those who are taking it so seriously should learn about the business world, its not butterflies and rainbows. It is unfortunate, but it is human nature. Honestly, MOW is not in the wrong for denying the money initially. From the information we have, they have a schedule and set everything up at least a month in advance. Its like getting a vacation and setting everything up through a travel agency. They then hire individuals, get restaurants ready, etc. If you dip out halfway through, they can't just go get that money back. It may seem immoral, but that's how the real world works.
The real issue is that MOW should have more stringent rules on setting the contract. It should be done ASAP when they agree to bring in a player. Their inexperience caused a lot of this to happen. Their poorly worded contract, their laxness with letting Fuzer in, etc. If anything, this whole thing was caused by them attempting to please their customer too much. They wanted Fuzer in and wanted to look good, so to keep him from complaining, they gave him almost 1 1/2 months to sign his contract to test the waters (do you really need a whole month to see what a house is like)? They should have given the contract to him well before he arrived and forced him to sign it or leave when arriving and before paying. Other issues seem to be the boss partying, but I believe Fuzer stated this ceased when the players talked to him about it. Food seems to be an issue as well, as the MOW pointed out that their players would be getting a well balanced diet along with exercise. I also want to hear more about this psychologist/motivator they have in the house.
Fuzer is guilty as well though, he had one month to negotiate his contract and contact his lawyer. While the ministry of win should have had the contract all sorted out when he arrived, it should not take one month to negotiate a contract over living in a gaming house. Apparently the contract was eventually negotiated, but only after that did Fuzer attempt to contact his lawyer. If he didn't like clauses before, why did he only contact his lawyer after the second draft, which supposedly included his amendments? If he couldn't understand it, how was the first contract amended? Fuzer seems to be holding back on this as well. He was also being naive or taking advantage of MOW when they allowed him to test the waters. Why pay when there is no contract or no record of payment? MOW should not be doing cash anyways.
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
or they should have just sent Fuzer a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer. How's that even hard? How? Why does MoW even want Fuzer's lawyer's credentials or whatever? What does it even concern them? Let's just omit all that and post pictures of kittens
Or, you can just not give random people money. You know? It's kind of standard in life. Would you just give some random guy $500? No, but that's what fuzer did. Never signed the contract, so this is his problem. He's the one who fucked up. Sneaky or not, MoW>fuzer.
except for MoW isn't a random someone, they've had notable community figures visiting their house, notable endorsements such as Razer, Twitch...etc.
With all those "credentials", you would expect some decency, honesty, and some ethics.....or not lol. Not even sneaky, this is shady, unethical business practice at best. I'd suggest you to watch DarkForce's video response or read what FXOBoSs has to say so you can understand the whole issue better.
No, I understand it. Just people acting stupid to other people acting stupid. Both sides here are pretty stupid. They both fucked up, I get that they aren't some random somebody. But holy fuck, don't send them money in the first place without a contract, that shit is shady. No idea why people are defending fuzer anyways
there is a saying that should help you understand: fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Trusting people (to the reasonable extent) is ok, fooling people is never ok. I find it very disappointing that in some peoples minds the opposite takes place.
So this is confirmation of pretty much everything said before in Fuzer's post. And your apology. This should have come first not some stupid ESFI article that you use to try and spin the situation in your favor. Seems like you shot yourself and now that the community is bleeding you out, youve decided to own up to this and apologize. Then try to suck up by posting stupid pictures of cats. Id say your image is tarnished regardless of this late apology.
On September 14 2012 05:08 omgimonfire15 wrote: Both sides are in the wrong, it is naive to blindly defend either side or raise pitchforks. honestly, this is a rather trivial issue, and those who are taking it so seriously should learn about the business world, its not butterflies and rainbows. It is unfortunate, but it is human nature. Honestly, MOW is not in the wrong for denying the money initially. From the information we have, they have a schedule and set everything up at least a month in advance. Its like getting a vacation and setting everything up through a travel agency. They then hire individuals, get restaurants ready, etc. If you dip out halfway through, they can't just go get that money back. It may seem immoral, but that's how the real world works.
Thats the risk you take when you dont get contracts and then decide to kick the client out because you dont like him. Hell, someone even said in this thread according to the law you cant make a clause in the contract which allows you to fail at delivering the services and still keep the money.
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
or they should have just sent Fuzer a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer. How's that even hard? How? Why does MoW even want Fuzer's lawyer's credentials or whatever? What does it even concern them? Let's just omit all that and post pictures of kittens
Or, you can just not give random people money. You know? It's kind of standard in life. Would you just give some random guy $500? No, but that's what fuzer did. Never signed the contract, so this is his problem. He's the one who fucked up. Sneaky or not, MoW>fuzer.
except for MoW isn't a random someone, they've had notable community figures visiting their house, notable endorsements such as Razer, Twitch...etc.
With all those "credentials", you would expect some decency, honesty, and some ethics.....or not lol. Not even sneaky, this is shady, unethical business practice at best. I'd suggest you to watch DarkForce's video response or read what FXOBoSs has to say so you can understand the whole issue better.
No, I understand it. Just people acting stupid to other people acting stupid. Both sides here are pretty stupid. They both fucked up, I get that they aren't some random somebody. But holy fuck, don't send them money in the first place without a contract, that shit is shady. No idea why people are defending fuzer anyways
No you don't understand it.. Did you even read the part where Fuzer requested a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer, but it was denied by MoW? and MoW, for some reason wanted to see the lawyer's credentials? IMO, wanting a lawyer to go through your contract before signing it isn't stupid at all.
hindsight is 20/20, but it doesn't change the fact that MoW's contract is full of shit and the Boss guy is a very shady individual..etc.
Yes, I do understand it. I read it, still his fault. I'm sorry that fuzer isn't actually a smart person. He's an idiot. The end.
Let me add some more, he sent them money before a contract. That's all that needs to be said here.
Wow, people sure do live to throw tar and feathers when they think they've caught someone else doing something wrong. Rofl @ some of the vitriol directed towards MoW in this thread. Why in god's name do you care that much?
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
or they should have just sent Fuzer a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer. How's that even hard? How? Why does MoW even want Fuzer's lawyer's credentials or whatever? What does it even concern them? Let's just omit all that and post pictures of kittens
Or, you can just not give random people money. You know? It's kind of standard in life. Would you just give some random guy $500? No, but that's what fuzer did. Never signed the contract, so this is his problem. He's the one who fucked up. Sneaky or not, MoW>fuzer.
except for MoW isn't a random someone, they've had notable community figures visiting their house, notable endorsements such as Razer, Twitch...etc.
With all those "credentials", you would expect some decency, honesty, and some ethics.....or not lol. Not even sneaky, this is shady, unethical business practice at best. I'd suggest you to watch DarkForce's video response or read what FXOBoSs has to say so you can understand the whole issue better.
No, I understand it. Just people acting stupid to other people acting stupid. Both sides here are pretty stupid. They both fucked up, I get that they aren't some random somebody. But holy fuck, don't send them money in the first place without a contract, that shit is shady. No idea why people are defending fuzer anyways
No you don't understand it.. Did you even read the part where Fuzer requested a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer, but it was denied by MoW? and MoW, for some reason wanted to see the lawyer's credentials? IMO, wanting a lawyer to go through your contract before signing it isn't stupid at all.
hindsight is 20/20, but it doesn't change the fact that MoW's contract is full of shit and the Boss guy is a very shady individual..etc.
Yes, I do understand it. I read it, still his fault. I'm sorry that fuzer isn't actually a smart person. He's an idiot. The end.
Let me add some more, he sent them money before a contract. That's all that needs to be said here.
I am sorry to say but the idiot here is you...
According to the official MoW statement there were two different contracts legally speaking, the provisional one (you pay X to stay here) and the written one. The entire fuzz is that MoW wanted to change from the provisional one to the written one, whereas Fuzer did not want to sign it without a lawyer (which is his right).
If MoW wanted him out, no problem don't continue the provisional contract for a second month, but that is NOT what they did. Instead they accepted his money (thereby continuing the arrangement) and then later threw him out.
The situation was sub-optimal from both sides, but it is also fairly common. I've rented a flat in a similar way (verbal agreement+money upfront, written contract 3-6 weeks later, one side writes it, sends it to the other side, they consult their lawyer etc.).
From a legal perspective there is only 1 idiot in this exchange, that is the guy who let someone into his house on a verbal basis without covering his angles first and then regretted that decision. Maybe MoW will learn their lesson, but frankly so far their behaviour hasn't really shown any remorse.
Well then. They didn't dodge around the issue or provide vague wording, and they got +10 internets for the kittens. I guess either one side is completely wrong or they're both right. Either way we can't tell now without witch hunting. We'll have to wait and see how other players react in the future in order to see which possible scenario is the correct one.
Somehow those kittens make the OP remind me of that one South Park episode where that one company does awful things and makes those "we're sorry" video clips. :D
On September 14 2012 05:50 Benjamin99 wrote: I don't think they realize how effective pitchforks are versus kittens
Yeah, I can't get over the fact that they did that. That's just trying to insult everybody's intelligence by making it one of these "not very serious internet matters". What the actual fuck? They're messing with their primary customer base here.
On September 14 2012 05:58 animol wrote: Somehow those kittens make the OP remind me of that one South Park episode where that one company does awful things and makes those "we're sorry" video clips. :D
Exactly what i was thinking. In before video statements by MoW:
On September 14 2012 04:37 Roman666 wrote: [quote] I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
or they should have just sent Fuzer a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer. How's that even hard? How? Why does MoW even want Fuzer's lawyer's credentials or whatever? What does it even concern them? Let's just omit all that and post pictures of kittens
Or, you can just not give random people money. You know? It's kind of standard in life. Would you just give some random guy $500? No, but that's what fuzer did. Never signed the contract, so this is his problem. He's the one who fucked up. Sneaky or not, MoW>fuzer.
except for MoW isn't a random someone, they've had notable community figures visiting their house, notable endorsements such as Razer, Twitch...etc.
With all those "credentials", you would expect some decency, honesty, and some ethics.....or not lol. Not even sneaky, this is shady, unethical business practice at best. I'd suggest you to watch DarkForce's video response or read what FXOBoSs has to say so you can understand the whole issue better.
No, I understand it. Just people acting stupid to other people acting stupid. Both sides here are pretty stupid. They both fucked up, I get that they aren't some random somebody. But holy fuck, don't send them money in the first place without a contract, that shit is shady. No idea why people are defending fuzer anyways
No you don't understand it.. Did you even read the part where Fuzer requested a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer, but it was denied by MoW? and MoW, for some reason wanted to see the lawyer's credentials? IMO, wanting a lawyer to go through your contract before signing it isn't stupid at all.
hindsight is 20/20, but it doesn't change the fact that MoW's contract is full of shit and the Boss guy is a very shady individual..etc.
Yes, I do understand it. I read it, still his fault. I'm sorry that fuzer isn't actually a smart person. He's an idiot. The end.
Let me add some more, he sent them money before a contract. That's all that needs to be said here.
I am sorry to say but the idiot here is you...
According to the official MoW statement there were two different contracts legally speaking, the provisional one (you pay X to stay here) and the written one. The entire fuzz is that MoW wanted to change from the provisional one to the written one, whereas Fuzer did not want to sign it without a lawyer (which is his right).
If MoW wanted him out, no problem don't continue the provisional contract for a second month, but that is NOT what they did. Instead they accepted his money (thereby continuing the arrangement) and then later threw him out.
The situation was sub-optimal from both sides, but it is also fairly common. I've rented a flat in a similar way (verbal agreement+money upfront, written contract 3-6 weeks later, one side writes it, sends it to the other side, they consult their lawyer etc.).
From a legal perspective there is only 1 idiot in this exchange, that is the guy who let someone into his house on a verbal basis without covering his angles first and then regretted that decision. Maybe MoW will learn their lesson, but frankly so far their behaviour hasn't really shown any remorse.
On September 14 2012 05:50 Benjamin99 wrote: I don't think they realize how effective pitchforks are versus kittens
Yeah, I can't get over the fact that they did that. That's just trying to insult everybody's intelligence by making it one of these "not very serious internet matters". What the actual fuck? They're messing with their primary customer base here.
This is actually true. Their public statements to this whole thing on this forum are basicly deciding the company's future, a small company but still.
so basically... you pay 600 a month to feel like you are a progamer... wow...
nothing against MoW, its fine to run a business i guess.. but no one intelligent should wanna stay there...
dont understand why anyone couldnt just do hardcore ladder practice as training for free... dont know anyone who is rank1 gm on any server that isnt pro status so that means ladder is fine practice.
acting like it isnt just means you cant get rank1 gm which means u probably arent good enough to be pro because you lose games against other crappy people on the ladder
On September 14 2012 06:14 kaokentake wrote: so basically... you pay 600 a month to feel like you are a progamer... wow...
nothing against MoW, its fine to run a business i guess.. but no one intelligent should wanna stay there...
dont understand why anyone couldnt just do hardcore ladder practice as training for free... dont know anyone who is rank1 gm on any server that isnt pro status so that means ladder is fine practice.
acting like it isnt just means you cant get rank1 gm which means u probably arent good enough to be pro because you lose games against other crappy people on the ladder
... there's a saying.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.
The ladder is a valuable training tool, but you can't ask the ladder to continually pressure test your new build by throwing different stuff at it until you find its weak points. Its not efficient. Its good for a lot of things, but structured and targeted practice is not one of them.
Regarding points 1-3, why force a player to sign a contract if you don't enforce said contract?? If those clauses aren't enforced, they shouldn't be in there to begin with.
On September 14 2012 05:50 Benjamin99 wrote: I don't think they realize how effective pitchforks are versus kittens
Yeah, I can't get over the fact that they did that. That's just trying to insult everybody's intelligence by making it one of these "not very serious internet matters". What the actual fuck? They're messing with their primary customer base here.
Well to me personally their statement doesn't seem quite ignorant enough to make the joke insulting. But then again, the percieved level of ignorance obviously varies to a degree.
2. Ministry of Win does not enforce on players the amount of hours they have to stream. It is a part of a business contract and both parties negotiate an agreement. We understand that players have come to the house for the sole purpose of perfecting their skills and thus we do not exact the agreed hours to the last detail. Most players view streaming as a key income source for themselves and so we give them the best opportunity to profit from it. Thanks to the strategic partnership between the Ministry of Win and Twitch.tv the CPM ratio is superior to that of an individual streaming on one’s own. Furthermore the players that had no Twitch.tv partnership prior to joining the house obtain a possibility to start monetizing their exposure instantly omitting the regular Twitch.tv partnership acquireing process.
still doesnt seem right. If you don't enforce it, why is is there in the first place?
I guess MoW has an agreement with twitch around a certain streaming amount (as twitch kindly offered the ad stuff) and thus they put it in the contracts. After all, they are the good guys! :D everyone is happy!
I have waited to see both sides of the story and waited for MoW to release their statement(s) before I made any decisions regarding them. Now that all of that has happened, I for one will not be supporting MoW in anyway from this point on. I personally will no longer watch any of the MoW streams (even some of my favorite progamers as long as they are part of MoW). Especially learning that they are taking cuts from the stream revenue, no chance I will be logging on another of their streams, sorry to the gamers currently there and under contract but hopefully you will see a sinking ship for what it is and get on a lifeboat asap.
On September 14 2012 05:58 animol wrote: Somehow those kittens make the OP remind me of that one South Park episode where that one company does awful things and makes those "we're sorry" video clips. :D
Exactly what i was thinking. In before video statements by MoW:
Pretty accurate depiction of what they tried to say to us.
I'd like to take note that the pitchforks won't stop until there is an established SC2 organization that monitors esports. I know we are afraid of giving such organization so much power over fear of a repeat of Kespa. But it seems sometime in the near future the SC2 community has to come up with one, whether it be Blizzard taking the initiative first, or the community such as ESF stepping up at connecting globally.
I know it sounds crazy, but its the only way to prevent bad practice, scandals, and crazy situations to go out of hand. Korea has the best infrastructure thus far, and we should somehow model our scene like theirs.
tldr 1. we are not trying to say you cant have a progaming career after 10 years. 2. we are not trying to take all of your stream earnings but we help set it up for you and that should account for some percentage of it. 3. $785 rent (trying to get better here does come with a price you know) 4. yes our food does suck.
On September 14 2012 06:00 ThePhan2m wrote: Comon, give the guy a break. Players have a responisiblity as well. He is just trying to keep the place going!
I bet most of you guys commenting couldn't have done half as good a job as this guy and kept the place running.
I heard players have the responsibility to play the frikkin game and entertain us. But maybe I am wrong. It's just what I heard. from an uncle's coworker. actually his nephew's son's postman. You know. . .
And so we have to learn something first to criticise it? How about bribery? or onesided journalism. Do I have to be a journalist to judge a text?
I mean they denied to hand him a copy of the contract so he could doublecheck it with whomever he wanted. Instead they press him in a NDA clause which he didn't sign and they still don't disclose the contract. Instead they make dodgy apologies and try to sound serious with kittens. really?
Feel bit sry for Mow that they had to post a response due to the other thread getting so manny replies. Mow did nothing major wrong it seems,this whole incident is barely worth noting tbh. Its just a misunderstanding between an emotional player and a starting pro organisation. No big deal at all, its not like someone getting kicked out of a pro team or whole pro team dismantle for obscure reasons like happens in korea lol. The fact that this got so much attention i can only explain by the fact that everyone on this forum must be bored to death and dying for some drama to entertain. (me included). Dont think its good for the scene as a whole though, it makes the scene looks verry immature wich might deter sponsors. Think noone here has been seriously angry with Mow btw, nor with fuzer beside some silly haters.
Doesn't address why they didn't send the laywer a copy and why they only decided to pay him back once he threatened to come public with the information..
Also, the contract still sounded completely insane. I still think it was a smart decision to not sign it blindly.
clearly so much left out of this because they have no valid excuse for things like waking up all the players at night with parties.
the kitten pictures at the bottom only reinforce everyone's assumptions that the management can't even properly write a professional response, let alone a sane contract.
... i just stared at the first picture that said "you love us now, right?" wondering how anyone could have thought that would be convincing or acceptable. clearly their only motivation for writing this was so they wouldn't get bad publicity. they don't really give a shit about the situation. all they care about is their image.
Upon hearing about this 'Boss' from Fuzer's thread, and now reading this POS apology, I can't help but shake the feeling that we have another Gus Ledesma on our hands.
People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly.
In the end, I just have to go /facepalm to both parties... Fuzer wasn't smart enough to check up on the contract BEFORE he got to Poland. Any intelligent adult would think what the terms are before they get themselves involved in it. MoW screwed up in the sense that they cannot show any sort of professionalism in their business conduct. The fact that their amenities and the boss' conduct in the house just makes it seem that they cannot run a proper business.
I really like the idea of having an intense gaming house out of Korea, but it seems like the organization and even the contract seems extremely unprofessional.
On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote: People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly.
Your post would have been great on the first page; it might have made certain people think twice about posting their blind hatred fo-
Holy shit, did they really put kitten pictures up?
the only thing I'm going to say is I find it fishy when an organization thinks "omg he wants a lawyer to look over his contract. he must be stalling". i feel that that is a truly ridiculous philosophy and if there is a decent sized contract there should always be a lawyer.
At first I was happy when it seemed like people were offended by the cat photos, but then there were a bunch of comments responding positively to them. I guess that's the problem with a non-Reddit forum structure; I have no idea what the consensus is.
We should be PISSED that he tried to defuse this very serious situation by throwing in meme photos. He's insulting your intelligence. He thinks you're just a dumb jackoff and if he throws in cats, you'll forget the actual issue.
On September 14 2012 01:27 courtpanda wrote: "take us seriously please we want to be taken seriously"
"but here are kittens."
LOL, this is exactly what I was thinking, but still those kittens kinda blew my mind lol, I didn't expect that, I wish the mOw and the players best of luck but I just hope that Fuzer or no other players get ripped off, if they did. T_T
Nice pandering to the crowd with a stupid kitten meme. Do you want to be taken seriously or not?
Judging by the replies most of TL has no respect and is willing to be patronized like that anyway. Good job on reading the general level of self-respect here.
Yeah, as others have said, this statement wasn't exactly the best. Kittens aside, it didn't really seem to give the entire story from all of the confirmed things from the thread. I usually am weak to these kinds of statements, but for once (and without being a total negative nancy or cynic), I could kind of tell that said statement appeared to skirt some of the issues brought up. The posted FXOBoss statement was quite on point.
While the kittens were somewhat unprofessional and made it hard to take them seriously, imho it's also somewhat of an overreaction to claim that the kitten images were assumed to defuse the situation entirely. It was a rather silly addition in order to try to make light of the situation and/or appeal to the crowd (and which was, of course, ironic when considering the point of the statement), but I really don't think MoW expected a bunch of kitten photos to remedy everything. I find it dubious that any organization would insult people's intelligence at that level, really...
Overall, at least the whole scandal seems to have mostly abated by now.
MoW to me feels now more like MoF. I don't care about all the finer points of these contracts, just the fact that Fuzer wasn't paid back what belongs to him is enough for me to make the boss seem like a dick. The fact that the fee was paid beforehand and cannot be refunded, I wonder if they ever told Fuzer? Also, why on earth couldn't he? I just can't see it.. Not to mention all the shadiness and misleading wording in his statement(s).
the kittens are super cute but made me lose respect by leaps and bounds for the prose.
i mean yea some people are taking the drama too far... but like a sorry we will try to be even better or whatever is a good touch
i mean when aristotle wrote about rhetoric, he described ethos, pathos, logos, and insulting your audience's intelligence by giving them cute pictures and using that as an apology. oh wait. he didnt talk about the last one.
Hahaha, this is hilarious! 99% of the time this community will eat up any wall of text apology. But as soon as there's kitten pictures attached it's a different story.
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
So I don't have your money .... Seriously that is sleazy.
I am sure it has been sad 30 times but small mistakes by both parties, making sure the contract is signed and ready to go before moving in could have prevented all of this
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
or they should have just sent Fuzer a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer. How's that even hard? How? Why does MoW even want Fuzer's lawyer's credentials or whatever? What does it even concern them? Let's just omit all that and post pictures of kittens
Or, you can just not give random people money. You know? It's kind of standard in life. Would you just give some random guy $500? No, but that's what fuzer did. Never signed the contract, so this is his problem. He's the one who fucked up. Sneaky or not, MoW>fuzer.
except for MoW isn't a random someone, they've had notable community figures visiting their house, notable endorsements such as Razer, Twitch...etc.
With all those "credentials", you would expect some decency, honesty, and some ethics.....or not lol. Not even sneaky, this is shady, unethical business practice at best. I'd suggest you to watch DarkForce's video response or read what FXOBoSs has to say so you can understand the whole issue better.
No, I understand it. Just people acting stupid to other people acting stupid. Both sides here are pretty stupid. They both fucked up, I get that they aren't some random somebody. But holy fuck, don't send them money in the first place without a contract, that shit is shady. No idea why people are defending fuzer anyways
No you don't understand it.. Did you even read the part where Fuzer requested a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer, but it was denied by MoW? and MoW, for some reason wanted to see the lawyer's credentials? IMO, wanting a lawyer to go through your contract before signing it isn't stupid at all.
hindsight is 20/20, but it doesn't change the fact that MoW's contract is full of shit and the Boss guy is a very shady individual..etc.
Yes, I do understand it. I read it, still his fault. I'm sorry that fuzer isn't actually a smart person. He's an idiot. The end.
Let me add some more, he sent them money before a contract. That's all that needs to be said here.
I dont think you understand it at all. Sure, Fuzer might be out some money now if MoW doesnt give it back. But he will continue to be a part of this community and continue playing. MoW, on the other hand, is done. This community cares about the players and MoW should have thought about that before fucking with him.
Edit: this is more about profession integrity more than anything. If MoW doesnt have it then it is not going to be successful in a niche community like esports where organizations try to work together with everyone to make to scene grow.
I think the only people winning at the ministry of win is the management. Especially with these "clarifications." I don't blame Fuzer for deciding to not want to sign some agreement like that. You make it sound like he stayed there for awhile? If you want someone to "check out" your place you keep them there for a few days or a week at most. With the terms you guys are offering it seems like you guys are looking for indentured servants more than anything else. Good luck with that. You won't get anyone that has any self esteem.
I.don't understand what would be so hard about refunding the money less however many days he stayed stayed there then coming out with a press release saying he's been refunded. It's the only logical step.
Instead by dodging the most important question you're asking the community to doubt.your motives on everything.
On September 14 2012 01:24 Plansix wrote: Pretty much as expected. The offer of a refund was a good move and it sounds like a poor decision by both sides. This should be a lesson to all, do not put 10 year terms into your contracts for any reason. It sends the wrong message and makes all the other terms seem overly agressive. It is also not enforcable and unreasonable.
Also, the kittens are a critical part of the argument.
I agree with everything you said, especially the kittens. They are a necessary and formal part of this argument .
Well, I don't like the way things get blown up around eSports but I think the main thing people had an objection to was your initial refusal to refund the money, which gets not even a word of mention in this statement.
You should come out and apologize for that behaviour imo.
Edit - Or at least man up to that behaviour and don't try to shirk around it. There are valid reasons why you wouldn't refund all of his money, if that money has already been used on provisions for the coming months in anticipation of his stay in the house. That's perfectly valid. Just don't ignore it.
I honestly can't believe how many people like the kittens part of the post? Is this serious? They're trying to post a formal defense for themselves and they post pictures of fucking cats at the end of it? What would you think if the lease to your house had a cover page with cats on it. Pretty sure you'd wonder what the fuck are these people thinking. Same rules need to be applied here. It's supposed to be a professional business, they fucked someone over and then post a defense ending in cats. Fail as fuck.
very immature "statement", there wasnt anything concrete about the situation, or should I say, very little. This text is seriously brain insulting and retarded. People who care about drama doesent want to listen how is your house functioning but to hear more details of your defence. But there werent any. Shitty move, I am now more sorry for Fuzer. And ofc cats...Rofl, wtf. In serious statement you are putting few cats, I mean, this is either troll or immature stupid kid wrote this up.
Personally i think there has been BIG mistakes from both parties, MoW apologised and tried to rectify it (after the witch hunt), Fuzer didn't. Imho time to close the thread and move on.
p.s. Kittens in an official statement..... i wonder who is their PR - i really do
Adding these images in a jokingly manner does not bold well with this kind of statement. It shows the attitude of MoW does not taking the whole issue seriously and professionally.
It seems to me they are only releasing this because of pressure of not wanting to escalating this further, but in the same time with the underlying tone "Chill down, why mad bro?"
On September 14 2012 09:31 Sky101 wrote: So... sorry if I missed it somewhere, but is the MoW finally going to pay Fuzer back what they owed?
afaik, no. As stated in the official statement - the refund was offered and rejected. MoW also conveniently omitted the context and condition - Boss would only issue a refund on condition that Fuzer kept his mouth shut.
So they gave him 3 days to contact his lawyer and get him/her to submit the proper license. Then basically said sign or gtfo. That's way too short if you ask me. Lawyers have schedules too.
a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
What an underhanded way to put it. This statement doesn't refute that you at first REFUSED to pay the guy back and then after being threatened offered to refund the cash.
Yes, glossed over the portion of the situation that seems to be the main issue of concern for the community. What did this statement really say? "We should have had him sign the contract first. And, oh yea, we are working on the food. Now, please be pacified and kindly overlook the heart of the issue. Kittens."
Geez, what kind of "business" is this MoW, ffs?? Just pay the kid back his money. I refund my customers their money for much less than this. Some "business" this MoW is.
I say, fire this "boss" and get a real one, who knows how to run a business.
Thank you for posting the statement, now I have a clearer picture of things. Thank you also for starting a thread with kittens then leads to the random acts of puppy picture posting.
I just. I'm not sure why that was the response specifically. So much BS interlaced with what you needed to say. These things don't have to be so convoluted. I can tell that this is not sincere whatsoever. All I see is an organization trying to save face by making a move because they know that's what people expect.
I hope you really do learn something from this. It's not that you need a better 'method of dealings'. It's not that you need to rethink your procedures. You need to re-think your priorities. If your priorities are in the right place this would never happen, not like this, no way no how, it'd be impossible.
I wish you luck in the future, but I won't be going out of my way to support you. I wish all of your players much much luck however. As i'll always support all the players who don't cheat.
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
or they should have just sent Fuzer a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer. How's that even hard? How? Why does MoW even want Fuzer's lawyer's credentials or whatever? What does it even concern them? Let's just omit all that and post pictures of kittens
Or, you can just not give random people money. You know? It's kind of standard in life. Would you just give some random guy $500? No, but that's what fuzer did. Never signed the contract, so this is his problem. He's the one who fucked up. Sneaky or not, MoW>fuzer.
Wow, congratulations. You actually made me facepalm IRL. Doesn't happen every day over the internet!
people dont write super-ultra-obvious-political-like-we-did-nothing-wrong-we-super-innocent-we-love-u-pr-statement like this one then finish it off with kittens on a serious issue without other means.
i'm sure mow is laughing their ass off, "we dont give a fck what you guys think, we be makin $$$"
The guy in charge of MoW seems to be a pretty infamous and shady guy in the polish community, involved in things like refusing to pay prize money and such, then there is this blatant lie of having offered fuzer a refund when he did that after fuzer threatened to go public, and then the guy tries to pull this kitten bs, I'm thinking psychopath.
On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote: People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly.
It is not their business to ask for any credentials of Fuzer's lawyer. Fuzer has signed an NDA that already prevents him from leaking the contract so if Fuzer went and posted it around the internet MoW could take legal action against him. Fuzer should have every right to get advice about the contract.
EDIT: You can actually read it in the OP that Fuzer had 4 days to check the contract with his lawyer and two of these days were during a weekend. So basically they gave him two working days to do it...
On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote: People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly.
It is not their business to ask for any credentials of Fuzer's lawyer. Fuzer has signed an NDA that already prevents him from leaking the contract so if Fuzer went and posted it around the internet MoW could take legal action against him. Fuzer should have every right to get advice about the contract.
EDIT: You can actually read it in the OP that Fuzer had 4 days to check the contract with his lawyer and two of these days were during a weekend. So basically they gave him two working days to do it...
And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that.
Regardless, it's still not THAT big of a deal. Some semi-pro lost his rent money and had to eat fries. Oh yeah and he was asked to sign a NDA that prohibited him from starting a gaming house, which he doesn't have the resources or competence to do anyway.
This issue has now run its course, as Panthae stated. There's nothing more to be said, both sides have moved on and so should we.
On September 14 2012 04:32 coolguy00 wrote: (Skype log, censored the name of the guy who runs MoW = Boss)
[11.9.2012 12:41:24] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you have to pay me back from th emoney
[11.9.2012 12:41:33] Boss: nope, I don't have
[11.9.2012 12:41:40] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: ok
[11.9.2012 12:41:50] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so i paid you from this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:53] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: and im not here for this month
[11.9.2012 12:41:56] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: so you give back my money
[11.9.2012 12:41:58] Boss: You are breaking the rules
[11.9.2012 12:42:02] Boss: you know how it works?
[11.9.2012 12:42:06] Boss: If not - read the contract again
[11.9.2012 12:42:08] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: well
[11.9.2012 12:42:11] Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen: as you said i didnt sign it
[11.9.2012 12:42:17] Boss: So I don't have your money
[11.9.2012 12:42:32] Boss: Do you have any confirmation?
[11.9.2012 12:42:41] Boss: No. So now you see my situation when you don't sign the contract.
I don't understand how anyone who has read this^ could still defend MoW or "Boss".
I don't understand why people get so excited about this mouth off.
It like:
1. Give me back my money I am leaving. 2. You are entitled to get shit. 3. But I paid you for the whole month in advance and I am leaving now. 4. You violated the rules of the contract. 5. Hahahaha I never signed it so I dont have to obey the rules! 6. Hahahaha I never got your money. In fact you were never here.
except for
1. Give me back my money, you kicked me out because I didn't want to sign the contract before running it through my lawyer, which you wouldn't let me unless I provide you with the credentials of my lawyer. <- yeh okay dude. 2. pretty much as you said. 3. But I paid you in advance, and you kicked me out, because I won't be coerced to sign the shady contract, which I didn't want to sign before running it through my lawyer first. 4. You violated a contract you didn't even sign, so I get to keep the monies. 5. I didn't sign it. 6. har har, i never got your money.
Now that I provided the actual context, better?
Basically, he should have been forced to sign the contract before he moved in.
or they should have just sent Fuzer a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer. How's that even hard? How? Why does MoW even want Fuzer's lawyer's credentials or whatever? What does it even concern them? Let's just omit all that and post pictures of kittens
Or, you can just not give random people money. You know? It's kind of standard in life. Would you just give some random guy $500? No, but that's what fuzer did. Never signed the contract, so this is his problem. He's the one who fucked up. Sneaky or not, MoW>fuzer.
except for MoW isn't a random someone, they've had notable community figures visiting their house, notable endorsements such as Razer, Twitch...etc.
With all those "credentials", you would expect some decency, honesty, and some ethics.....or not lol. Not even sneaky, this is shady, unethical business practice at best. I'd suggest you to watch DarkForce's video response or read what FXOBoSs has to say so you can understand the whole issue better.
No, I understand it. Just people acting stupid to other people acting stupid. Both sides here are pretty stupid. They both fucked up, I get that they aren't some random somebody. But holy fuck, don't send them money in the first place without a contract, that shit is shady. No idea why people are defending fuzer anyways
No you don't understand it.. Did you even read the part where Fuzer requested a copy of the contract so he could run it through his lawyer, but it was denied by MoW? and MoW, for some reason wanted to see the lawyer's credentials? IMO, wanting a lawyer to go through your contract before signing it isn't stupid at all.
hindsight is 20/20, but it doesn't change the fact that MoW's contract is full of shit and the Boss guy is a very shady individual..etc.
Yes, I do understand it. I read it, still his fault. I'm sorry that fuzer isn't actually a smart person. He's an idiot. The end.
Let me add some more, he sent them money before a contract. That's all that needs to be said here.
Not true sir. They made a verbal contract to pay the rent per month. Sry but you are clearly wrong. And Fuzer paid in full on time. WOW, I just destroyed your post.
On September 14 2012 11:18 Doodsmack wrote: And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that.
Fuzer is not fluent in English, and as such he couldn't actually guarantee that all the "amendments" were exactly as they said.
And saying you don't need a lawyer to look over a contract is stupid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a lawyer to review a contract before you sign, and in many cases it's recommended.
Seriously MoW, what the hell are you trying to pull with this?
This whole drama shows how unprofessional your organization is. You clearly need to work on this, because something like this never happen, it is really shady. Then you decide to wrap up your post like this? Ridiculous.
On September 14 2012 11:18 Doodsmack wrote: And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that.
Fuzer is not fluent in English, and as such he couldn't actually guarantee that all the "amendments" were exactly as they said.
And saying you don't need a lawyer to look over a contract is stupid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a lawyer to review a contract before you sign, and in many cases it's recommended.
Knew I should have only said "this issue has run its course" because otherwise someone will just carry on the argument lol...
On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote: People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly.
It is not their business to ask for any credentials of Fuzer's lawyer. Fuzer has signed an NDA that already prevents him from leaking the contract so if Fuzer went and posted it around the internet MoW could take legal action against him. Fuzer should have every right to get advice about the contract.
EDIT: You can actually read it in the OP that Fuzer had 4 days to check the contract with his lawyer and two of these days were during a weekend. So basically they gave him two working days to do it...
And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that.
Regardless, it's still not THAT big of a deal. Some semi-pro lost his rent money and had to eat fries. Oh yeah and he was asked to sign a NDA that prohibited him from starting a gaming house, which he doesn't have the resources or competence to do anyway.
This issue has now run its course, as Panthae stated. There's nothing more to be said, both sides have moved on and so should we.
An NDA is not the same as an NCC. The NCC was a part of the contract which Fuzer never signed but the NDA is something you sign before you see the contract where you agree that you won't talk about the contract to a third party. You however have every right to show it to your lawyer (who I guess will also have to sign the NDA).
And where did you get the idea Fuzer had been negotiating the contract for a full month?
As I think I replied to you before, there are serious issues considering the ethics and legitimacy of the MoW business and yet you keep saying that it is Fuzer who is unprofessional when he exposes those issues. While you would rather avoid the drama because you are afraid someone will go crying to sponsors once again, it might hurts eSports a lot more if we don't investigate issues like this because there is a chance the MoW business is actually even being run with illegal or just abusive contracts with the intent of actually benefiting from the youth of the scene and business related to it. Things like this have happened many times before and there have been many liars in the eSports scene who only try to abuse it and the only way to get rid of all that shit is by exposing it.
On September 14 2012 11:18 Doodsmack wrote: And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that.
Fuzer is not fluent in English, and as such he couldn't actually guarantee that all the "amendments" were exactly as they said.
And saying you don't need a lawyer to look over a contract is stupid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a lawyer to review a contract before you sign, and in many cases it's recommended.
If its for something important, it should be reviewed by a lawyer. I've had stuff on contracts that I've never noticed stating things like "if you get kicked out of this location, the landlord gets to keep all your stuff" in really roundbout ways.
On September 14 2012 11:18 Doodsmack wrote: And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that.
Fuzer is not fluent in English, and as such he couldn't actually guarantee that all the "amendments" were exactly as they said.
And saying you don't need a lawyer to look over a contract is stupid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a lawyer to review a contract before you sign, and in many cases it's recommended.
Knew I should have only said "this issue has run its course" because otherwise someone will just carry on the argument lol...
As quite a few people have stated, and quite a few people have ignored, the contract is irrelevant, and MoW is an idiot for actually accepting his payment for letting him stay in the house (which by legal definition is a contract. Offer/Acceptance/Comsideration). He then asks him to sign a contract AFTER he accepts payment, which actually Fuzer actually has absolutely no obligation to sign. You don't negotiate a contract after you pay, because if you did, people can just make things up, and the seller will always have power over the consumer, which is what the Polish guy wanted. There's actually a case that is probably relevant to this, where a woman lost an item a hotel, and the hotel management didn't want to accept responsibility because they had a sign in the hotel room stating they they weren't liable for lost items, but she won the case because she was only made aware of that fact after she paid.
Not to sound like a pompous SOAB but as a successful business man I can confidently say these statements, behaviors, & situations is a spitting image of the major issue plaguing the growth of esports, professionalism. Best of luck MOW, Fuzer, LOL MLG summer championship finals teams (list goes on & on), but the impacts of behaviors like this go soooo far beyond your comprehensions. I'm 32 years old, recieved my first NES in '86, & have always had gaming a part of my life. It's a shame people blessed with such skill in an amazing & fun hobby/professions/activity have no respect or appreciation for how childish acticities truly hold this industry back.
Props to those teams, houses, players, businessmen who appreciate what they have & strive to grow such an amazing & rewarding topic like gaming into the "sport" it should be considered. Your tact & professionalism is appreciated by us all. Keep it up
"I honestly can't believe how many people like the kittens part of the post? Is this serious? They're trying to post a formal defense for themselves and they post pictures of fucking cats at the end of it?"
well the message is obvious: They are NOT trying to post a formal defence because they probably and rightfully find this whole situation rediculously blown out of proportion. So they add some kittens to help people see things in a bit broader perspective, and to show that this is not the end of the world.
That chat log does not make the "boss" look good btw to say the least but i guess there already has been a huge amount of arguing going on before he started acting like a jerk,maybe he was just full of it and had enough of it,i dont know. Such chat logs are difficult to judge without the context and everything said before and can be quiet misleading.
On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote: People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly.
It is not their business to ask for any credentials of Fuzer's lawyer. Fuzer has signed an NDA that already prevents him from leaking the contract so if Fuzer went and posted it around the internet MoW could take legal action against him. Fuzer should have every right to get advice about the contract.
EDIT: You can actually read it in the OP that Fuzer had 4 days to check the contract with his lawyer and two of these days were during a weekend. So basically they gave him two working days to do it...
And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that.
Regardless, it's still not THAT big of a deal. Some semi-pro lost his rent money and had to eat fries. Oh yeah and he was asked to sign a NDA that prohibited him from starting a gaming house, which he doesn't have the resources or competence to do anyway.
This issue has now run its course, as Panthae stated. There's nothing more to be said, both sides have moved on and so should we.
An NDA is not the same as an NCC. The NCC was a part of the contract which Fuzer never signed but the NDA is something you sign before you see the contract where you agree that you won't talk about the contract to a third party. You however have every right to show it to your lawyer (who I guess will also have to sign the NDA).
And where did you get the idea Fuzer had been negotiating the contract for a full month?
As I think I replied to you before, there are serious issues considering the ethics and legitimacy of the MoW business and yet you keep saying that it is Fuzer who is unprofessional when he exposes those issues. While you would rather avoid the drama because you are afraid someone will go crying to sponsors once again, it might hurts eSports a lot more if we don't investigate issues like this because there is a chance the MoW business is actually even being run with illegal or just abusive contracts with the intent of actually benefiting from the youth of the scene and business related to it. Things like this have happened many times before and there have been many liars in the eSports scene who only try to abuse it and the only way to get rid of all that shit is by exposing it.
I don't know maybe the OP? Sounds like you're a good example of an uninformed community "investigating" this issue lol. I guess an esports investigation consists of repeating hearsay on internet forums and perpetuating threads full of uninformed trolls arguing back and forth.
Yeah serious issues and drama here everyone, we better present cogent arguments as to why MoW lacks "ethics and legitimacy". My god this poor child had to eat fries 3x a week! And *gasp* got woken up at 4 am! MoW tried to get him to sign a malicious contract that they specifically negotiated with the original house guests (who were all agreeable to it)! It's almost like they're trying to exploit children into slave labor here. That certainly explains why all the other guests have said that MoW has responded well to their (private) criticism and feedback. And that they're grateful for MoW and they've definitely improved as players.
LOL such little drama queens you guys are...sorry but you have nothing new or insightful to say after nearly 150 pages of posts on this issue. The issue has been talked to death so please, join me in playing some SC2 .
On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote: People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly.
It is not their business to ask for any credentials of Fuzer's lawyer. Fuzer has signed an NDA that already prevents him from leaking the contract so if Fuzer went and posted it around the internet MoW could take legal action against him. Fuzer should have every right to get advice about the contract.
EDIT: You can actually read it in the OP that Fuzer had 4 days to check the contract with his lawyer and two of these days were during a weekend. So basically they gave him two working days to do it...
And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that.
Regardless, it's still not THAT big of a deal. Some semi-pro lost his rent money and had to eat fries. Oh yeah and he was asked to sign a NDA that prohibited him from starting a gaming house, which he doesn't have the resources or competence to do anyway.
This issue has now run its course, as Panthae stated. There's nothing more to be said, both sides have moved on and so should we.
An NDA is not the same as an NCC. The NCC was a part of the contract which Fuzer never signed but the NDA is something you sign before you see the contract where you agree that you won't talk about the contract to a third party. You however have every right to show it to your lawyer (who I guess will also have to sign the NDA).
And where did you get the idea Fuzer had been negotiating the contract for a full month?
As I think I replied to you before, there are serious issues considering the ethics and legitimacy of the MoW business and yet you keep saying that it is Fuzer who is unprofessional when he exposes those issues. While you would rather avoid the drama because you are afraid someone will go crying to sponsors once again, it might hurts eSports a lot more if we don't investigate issues like this because there is a chance the MoW business is actually even being run with illegal or just abusive contracts with the intent of actually benefiting from the youth of the scene and business related to it. Things like this have happened many times before and there have been many liars in the eSports scene who only try to abuse it and the only way to get rid of all that shit is by exposing it.
I don't know maybe the OP? Sounds like you're a good example of an uninformed community "investigating" this issue lol. I guess an esports investigation consists of repeating hearsay on internet forums and perpetuating threads full of uninformed trolls arguing back and forth.
Yeah serious issues and drama here everyone, we better present cogent arguments as to why MoW lacks "ethics and legitimacy". My god this poor child had to eat fries 3x a week! And *gasp* got woken up at 4 am! MoW tried to get him to sign a malicious contract that they specifically negotiated with the original house guests (who were all agreeable to it)! It's almost like they're trying to exploit children into slave labor here. That certainly explains why all the other guests have said that MoW has responded well to their (private) criticism and feedback. And that they're grateful for MoW and they've definitely improved as players.
LOL such little drama queens you guys are...sorry but you have nothing new or insightful to say after nearly 150 pages of posts on this issue. The issue has been talked to death so please, join me in playing some SC2 .
It is unethical business practice to get someone to sign a contract after payment. The testimonials have absolutely no relevance in this situation, and neither do witnesses of character.
Good to hear that Ministry Of Win admits that they were the ones that fucked up. Always sign a contract where both parties are clear about the deal BEFORE DOING ANYTHING. If you want to have a trial period to ship people over to let them experience it before making up their minds then HAVE A CONTRACT FOR THAT. Make them sign something that states any limitations of the trial period, like the person has to make up his mind within 20 days or he has to leave, etc etc. Whatever the case, Make it perfectly clear in a legal binding way.
On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote: People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly.
It is not their business to ask for any credentials of Fuzer's lawyer. Fuzer has signed an NDA that already prevents him from leaking the contract so if Fuzer went and posted it around the internet MoW could take legal action against him. Fuzer should have every right to get advice about the contract.
EDIT: You can actually read it in the OP that Fuzer had 4 days to check the contract with his lawyer and two of these days were during a weekend. So basically they gave him two working days to do it...
And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that.
Regardless, it's still not THAT big of a deal. Some semi-pro lost his rent money and had to eat fries. Oh yeah and he was asked to sign a NDA that prohibited him from starting a gaming house, which he doesn't have the resources or competence to do anyway.
This issue has now run its course, as Panthae stated. There's nothing more to be said, both sides have moved on and so should we.
An NDA is not the same as an NCC. The NCC was a part of the contract which Fuzer never signed but the NDA is something you sign before you see the contract where you agree that you won't talk about the contract to a third party. You however have every right to show it to your lawyer (who I guess will also have to sign the NDA).
And where did you get the idea Fuzer had been negotiating the contract for a full month?
As I think I replied to you before, there are serious issues considering the ethics and legitimacy of the MoW business and yet you keep saying that it is Fuzer who is unprofessional when he exposes those issues. While you would rather avoid the drama because you are afraid someone will go crying to sponsors once again, it might hurts eSports a lot more if we don't investigate issues like this because there is a chance the MoW business is actually even being run with illegal or just abusive contracts with the intent of actually benefiting from the youth of the scene and business related to it. Things like this have happened many times before and there have been many liars in the eSports scene who only try to abuse it and the only way to get rid of all that shit is by exposing it.
I don't know maybe the OP? Sounds like you're a good example of an uninformed community "investigating" this issue lol. I guess an esports investigation consists of repeating hearsay on internet forums and perpetuating threads full of uninformed trolls arguing back and forth.
Yeah serious issues and drama here everyone, we better present cogent arguments as to why MoW lacks "ethics and legitimacy". My god this poor child had to eat fries 3x a week! And *gasp* got woken up at 4 am! MoW tried to get him to sign a malicious contract that they specifically negotiated with the original house guests (who were all agreeable to it)! It's almost like they're trying to exploit children into slave labor here. That certainly explains why all the other guests have said that MoW has responded well to their (private) criticism and feedback. And that they're grateful for MoW and they've definitely improved as players.
LOL such little drama queens you guys are...sorry but you have nothing new or insightful to say after nearly 150 pages of posts on this issue. The issue has been talked to death so please, join me in playing some SC2 .
Who the fuck are you to claim that I am an uninformed community member? You don't know anything about who I am. For all you know I could be Fuzer's fucking mom. I have read all the facts given by both sides and even if I was Fuzer's mom and knew more, you wouldn't have to know it.
The OP says that they provided Fuzer with the contract "soon after", so who are you to tell us that Fuzer had it for the whole month when that is not what was stated? You are just full of bullshit man.
Even if you don't think those acts you stated were not "unethical or illegitimate", what I find quite disturbing in your ethics is that you don't find attempt of bribery an unethical or illegitimate act. It is a fact that the MoW boss tried to bribe Fuzer.
I think you should consult a doctor to get your head checked.
pretty sure nothing they said vindicates them either 1) refunding Fuzer for time not stayed, or 2) allowing him to stay until the time he paid for is over.
Sounds still iffy... especially if they have to make a contract with each individual person. That's weird. I feel like this guy is weird and creepy and especially with the cats...just... creepy.
If Fuzer first said "give me the money or I'll go public", it's kind of an exaggeration to call it a bribe. It's a response to a threat, and even if you think the threat is perfectly justified, the act of giving in isnt a bribe. That's just another example of you dramatizing things and lol @ you saying "what I find quite disturbing in your ethics". This issue is such small potatoes and even if MoW had been "unethical" in this case, I wouldn't give a flying fuck because the other players haven't had the same problem. Just give it a rest bud.
This was actually a really well written statement and made sense of the whole situation. It all seems fairly reasonable. The previous excuse for a press release was an epic failure, that actually did not address any of the issues brought to light by Fuzer. The whole ordeal seems kind of like a breakdown in communication and a total lack of trust by both parties involved trying to protect their own interest. Which is entirely understandable.
The unfortunate part is that they both tried to play hardball at the same time and took totally unreasonable approaches to both courses of action. I'm referring to the reluctance to pay Fuzer back and the complete failure of Fuzer to communicate his concerns and then overreacting and trying to tarnish MoW's reputation. I think most people would agree that the image for both parties involved has suffered. Fuzer now comes off as an immature child, while MoWs clean image has been brought into question.
What did we learn from this? Don't jump to conclusions next time and try to settle matters in civilized fashion, rather than bringing the public into this and damaging both parties. I think this whole esports business getting solved over Skype is really really stupid. I think people need to actually talk face to face or in some manner other than written elctronic form. How many more situations like this will we need to see before people start taking this stuff seriously and acting on a professional matter.
Esports is a business, and should be handled in a professional manner. No offense, but the kittens really didn't need to be there, and do nothing for you other than derail a perfectly succinct and rational explanation. This lack of professionalism is what started this shit in the first place. Next time, negotiate, get something both parties agree upon signed and don't hand over money or anything else until this is taken care of.
Enough of this cat and mouse, "how much can I get," bullshit. Get your business straight and don't take this circuitous, fine print, loophole contract shit. A contract should be cut and dry and only contain what is pertinent to the agreement. Nothing else should be in there. Fix your shit.
I think this is actually good thing that all the things came to light. We had a chance to see a sneak peek of the contract of MoW, I think that most of the players didn't even read the whole contract and singned it without knowing all the terms that it contained. It's not all about the money, it's for removing the scum out. E-sports have turned into a huge business and we have to be more professional. The contracts have to be fair and I hope MoW have learned their lesson and treat their players better. Things like progaming house have to be based on trust and the trust has to be both sided.
I hope you grow bigger and better and the players will have good training environment to become better gamers.
If Fuzer first said "give me the money or I'll go public", it's kind of an exaggeration to call it a bribe. It's a response to a threat, and even if you think the threat is perfectly justified, the act of giving in isnt a bribe. That's just another example of you dramatizing things and lol @ you saying "what I find quite disturbing in your ethics". This issue is such small potatoes and even if MoW had been "unethical" in this case, I wouldn't give a flying fuck because the other players haven't had the same problem. Just give it a rest bud.
He didn't say "give me the money or I'll go public". He said in his facebook page that it is time to write about MoW, and only after that did "Boss" try to bribe him to silence. This is yet another example of how you're trying to play down this serious issue.
On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote: People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly.
It is not their business to ask for any credentials of Fuzer's lawyer. Fuzer has signed an NDA that already prevents him from leaking the contract so if Fuzer went and posted it around the internet MoW could take legal action against him. Fuzer should have every right to get advice about the contract.
EDIT: You can actually read it in the OP that Fuzer had 4 days to check the contract with his lawyer and two of these days were during a weekend. So basically they gave him two working days to do it...
And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that.
Regardless, it's still not THAT big of a deal. Some semi-pro lost his rent money and had to eat fries. Oh yeah and he was asked to sign a NDA that prohibited him from starting a gaming house, which he doesn't have the resources or competence to do anyway.
This issue has now run its course, as Panthae stated. There's nothing more to be said, both sides have moved on and so should we.
An NDA is not the same as an NCC. The NCC was a part of the contract which Fuzer never signed but the NDA is something you sign before you see the contract where you agree that you won't talk about the contract to a third party. You however have every right to show it to your lawyer (who I guess will also have to sign the NDA).
And where did you get the idea Fuzer had been negotiating the contract for a full month?
As I think I replied to you before, there are serious issues considering the ethics and legitimacy of the MoW business and yet you keep saying that it is Fuzer who is unprofessional when he exposes those issues. While you would rather avoid the drama because you are afraid someone will go crying to sponsors once again, it might hurts eSports a lot more if we don't investigate issues like this because there is a chance the MoW business is actually even being run with illegal or just abusive contracts with the intent of actually benefiting from the youth of the scene and business related to it. Things like this have happened many times before and there have been many liars in the eSports scene who only try to abuse it and the only way to get rid of all that shit is by exposing it.
I don't know maybe the OP? Sounds like you're a good example of an uninformed community "investigating" this issue lol. I guess an esports investigation consists of repeating hearsay on internet forums and perpetuating threads full of uninformed trolls arguing back and forth.
Yeah serious issues and drama here everyone, we better present cogent arguments as to why MoW lacks "ethics and legitimacy". My god this poor child had to eat fries 3x a week! And *gasp* got woken up at 4 am! MoW tried to get him to sign a malicious contract that they specifically negotiated with the original house guests (who were all agreeable to it)! It's almost like they're trying to exploit children into slave labor here. That certainly explains why all the other guests have said that MoW has responded well to their (private) criticism and feedback. And that they're grateful for MoW and they've definitely improved as players.
LOL such little drama queens you guys are...sorry but you have nothing new or insightful to say after nearly 150 pages of posts on this issue. The issue has been talked to death so please, join me in playing some SC2 .
It is unethical business practice to get someone to sign a contract after payment. The testimonials have absolutely no relevance in this situation, and neither do witnesses of character.
Maybe... but isnt it a "little" weird to move in a house without accepting the terms? I mean... if I move to a new flat, I get the contract and have to sign it. If I dont do it, Im not allowed to bring my stuff there, sleep there,.... If I tell the landlord my lawyer has to see the contract, he will say: OK, but as long as you dont sign you dont live here... and if you dont hurry, I sell this flat to someone else" Both Parties fucked up. Fuzer for messing around and MoW for letting him stay before signing.
On September 14 2012 07:07 Panthae wrote: People are overreacting. MoW fucked up when they didn't have him sign before he got in. Fuzer fucked up when he moved in without a signed contract. Period. Everyone is at fault here, everyone learned, we move on. They asked for the lawyers credentials so that the actual contract format wouldn't get leaked on a site like teamliquid.net where our wonderful community will rage the shit out of anything, I get that. Fuzer very unprofessionally went and raged on a thread without having closed this issue, which only envenoms everything from thereon out. I mean geez guys, of course MoW gets a cut from the streams, the fact that they are in MoW brings in hundreds of more viewers and these players are getting top notch practice to perfect their play and win more money and more viewers in the future. The players win here, I'm not putting the fault only on MoW, I think what they are doing is a great thing and I think it's important to encourage such endeavors even if they are going to screw up from time to time.
If I had the money, I'd start a gaming house tomorrow... And trust me I would fuck many things up BIG TIME, but I'd learn throughout the process and I'd still be growing e-Sports. So please stop dissing MoW, who've done nothing wrong except end up with an unsigned player who was being difficult and then handled it poorly.
It is not their business to ask for any credentials of Fuzer's lawyer. Fuzer has signed an NDA that already prevents him from leaking the contract so if Fuzer went and posted it around the internet MoW could take legal action against him. Fuzer should have every right to get advice about the contract.
EDIT: You can actually read it in the OP that Fuzer had 4 days to check the contract with his lawyer and two of these days were during a weekend. So basically they gave him two working days to do it...
And Fuzer had already been negotiating the contract for a full month, including incorporating "amendments" that he himself requested. Guess he didn't need a lawyer for that.
Regardless, it's still not THAT big of a deal. Some semi-pro lost his rent money and had to eat fries. Oh yeah and he was asked to sign a NDA that prohibited him from starting a gaming house, which he doesn't have the resources or competence to do anyway.
This issue has now run its course, as Panthae stated. There's nothing more to be said, both sides have moved on and so should we.
An NDA is not the same as an NCC. The NCC was a part of the contract which Fuzer never signed but the NDA is something you sign before you see the contract where you agree that you won't talk about the contract to a third party. You however have every right to show it to your lawyer (who I guess will also have to sign the NDA).
And where did you get the idea Fuzer had been negotiating the contract for a full month?
As I think I replied to you before, there are serious issues considering the ethics and legitimacy of the MoW business and yet you keep saying that it is Fuzer who is unprofessional when he exposes those issues. While you would rather avoid the drama because you are afraid someone will go crying to sponsors once again, it might hurts eSports a lot more if we don't investigate issues like this because there is a chance the MoW business is actually even being run with illegal or just abusive contracts with the intent of actually benefiting from the youth of the scene and business related to it. Things like this have happened many times before and there have been many liars in the eSports scene who only try to abuse it and the only way to get rid of all that shit is by exposing it.
I don't know maybe the OP? Sounds like you're a good example of an uninformed community "investigating" this issue lol. I guess an esports investigation consists of repeating hearsay on internet forums and perpetuating threads full of uninformed trolls arguing back and forth.
Yeah serious issues and drama here everyone, we better present cogent arguments as to why MoW lacks "ethics and legitimacy". My god this poor child had to eat fries 3x a week! And *gasp* got woken up at 4 am! MoW tried to get him to sign a malicious contract that they specifically negotiated with the original house guests (who were all agreeable to it)! It's almost like they're trying to exploit children into slave labor here. That certainly explains why all the other guests have said that MoW has responded well to their (private) criticism and feedback. And that they're grateful for MoW and they've definitely improved as players.
LOL such little drama queens you guys are...sorry but you have nothing new or insightful to say after nearly 150 pages of posts on this issue. The issue has been talked to death so please, join me in playing some SC2 .
It is unethical business practice to get someone to sign a contract after payment. The testimonials have absolutely no relevance in this situation, and neither do witnesses of character.
Maybe... but isnt it a "little" weird to move in a house without accepting the terms? I mean... if I move to a new flat, I get the contract and have to sign it. If I dont do it, Im not allowed to bring my stuff there, sleep there,.... If I tell the landlord my lawyer has to see the contract, he will say: OK, but as long as you dont sign you dont live here... and if you dont hurry, I sell this flat to someone else" Both Parties fucked up. Fuzer for messing around and MoW for letting him stay before signing.
The thing is, MoWBoss said "He can move in and see what it's like" and then he wanted to see the contract.
From My point of view situation looks like this. 1. Duzer with MoW have some agreement that he comes to MoW probably for 2 months. He wanted to look at the house first before signing contract to look if environment, food etc. is acceptable for him. And if so, he will sing the contract. 2. According everything that was said by MoW statements, and Fuzer, he gave him contrat week/two weeks after he was already in the house and probably said that he likes it. 3. The contract was rejected by Duzer, because he doesn't like some statements. It was standard procedure in MoW to negotiate the contract, as we was said by other players who was there, and statements from MoW, that for example ammount streaming hours for players may differ, the same for twitch percent for streaming. We shouldn't forget part where players in MoW get opportunity to actually make money on stream, which Fuzer didn't have earlier ( Twitch partnership ). So if you earning 0$ and have opportunity to make i.e. 8$ after cut was taken, this is good for both players and house. Some of you doesn't know this. 4. So let's focus on this that Fuzer saw this contract few weeks after his department. So why he doesn't ask for his lawyer at start ? Why he said that THIS THIS AND THIS should be corrected only ? 5. Let say that they corrected things that was pointed from Fuzer, and then He found some another issues ? They corrected it and again something is not correct, which earlier was stated as 'OK'. 6. After few weeks of negotiating contract suddenly Fuzer said another excuse why he wouldn't sing the contract, because suddenly He does not understand this contract and need a lawyer. Ok,They ask for credential of lawyer by skan ( i think this was just to ensure that he isn't delaying signing contract deliberately. Some of you in previous posts has said, that Name will be sufficient, so my lawyer will be Bardy Rahikkala Law Office , so check internet.^^ As you can see getting name of Finland lawyer from internet is not a problem ant probably they thinked that if they allow him to give just a name he will find it in internet. Some of you may say that credential shouldn't be necessary, because every one he trust could be his adviser. That's true but i think, that at that point they doesn't trust Fuzer with anything, so to be sure they asked for it and the funny part is that Fuzer agrees to this terms of skan of lawyer credentials. Few days after he said that he wont do this. The question is why? It is a simple matter to ask my lawyer to skan me his credentials and i'm sure he was just stalling ) 7. So we are ending in a dead point, because Fuzer doesn't want to do anything with contract. 8. The biggest decision information is, what king of agreement was made before he came to Mow. If it was said that if He came and like house, he must sing contract ? OR If he just came to home and pay money and nothing more. 9. Nevertheless if they didn't sign contract whit him they have 2 options. Left him for rest of month and GTFO, or GTFO in the middle of the month, but they should give Him the money ( If no verbal agreements were made about some regulations i.e. about signing a contract ). 10. Skype drama - This is the worst part in this whole drama. I wondered how I would have behaved in this situation and i think this is just as FXOBOSS said about culture of power. He wanted to show Fuzer how important this contract is, because without it, he had no confirmation about anything, even paid money. I regret that Fuzer didn't wait to see if money were transferred to his account. We as people often said one thing when we are nervous and we behave differently when emotions have subsided 11. Conclusions: Both sides acted childish and irresponsible. Fuzer for unwillingness to sign the contract for whatever reason he has ( please take in mind that every other player who lived in house hasn't such trouble ), and the MoW management for talking before thinking, and for acting before thinking, for taking Fuzer without contract, so basically for NOT THINKING. I hope this will be lesson for house management, but after seeing how many hate, is in this thread, i would swear that you guys all live there, know better that rest of player what is good for them, and that food is bad, streaming hours are terrible, and 10 years of not able to CRATE your own gaming house(not to join them as many of you thinks). You also forgot that this contract was made with first players in house, so saying that something is unacceptable for players is just silly. I think that prices of Iphone for example are very silly compared to functionality, but there are millions of people who think differently about this, so please be so kind, to analyse by yourself and don't force you TRUTH as the only just and fair for everyone. Sorry for my gramma, but English is not my native. I usually just browse and read TL and very seldom write, because everything was already said, but in this case i wanted to add my 2 cents. And please don't bash me for what i'm just thinking. Everyone has right to his opinion. Kind regards ShaD321
Blaablaablaablaa. The whole "drama" was caused by the fact that Boss said he doesn't have Fuzer's money because Fuzer can't prove he does. That is called being an asshole. Maybe that will hold in court and he doesn't have to pay.
Everything else (food, streaming, high rent, even the 10year non-compete) is just part of business. If you make a contract it's your fault for agreeing to such terms. What you shouldn't have to agree is someone being dishonest. He has Fuzer's money whether Fuzer could prove it or not. This entire statement thus doesn't even touch the real issue.
Maybe he is an asshole, maybe he just said that in a heat of moment. If that was just a mistake, then apologize and get on with it.
I would never want to deal with people like that who will scam you if they can get away with it. I think Fuzer made the right thing bringing this up so everyone who deals with Boss later has all the information and can make up their own mind.
The Non-compete just rubs me the wrong way. My personal trainers, coaches, camps, etc... have NEVER tried to have me sign such a thing in my life and they never would. That's what you are, you are essentially a camp. How do you keep people attending your camp? By being a good fucking camp, not by banning people from competing against you. That's just completely fucking idiotic and shows the kind of people you really are. A bunch of goons just trying to cash in on e-Sports while taking advantage of naive young men. You sicken me and practices like yours will do nothing but stagnate the scene as you attempt to reap all the benefits.
On September 14 2012 17:28 Dosey wrote: The Non-compete just rubs me the wrong way. My personal trainers, coaches, camps, etc... have NEVER tried to have me sign such a thing in my life and they never would. That's what you are, you are essentially a camp. How do you keep people attending your camp? By being a good fucking camp, not by banning people from competing against you. That's just completely fucking idiotic and shows the kind of people you really are. A bunch of goons just trying to cash in on e-Sports while taking advantage of naive young men. You sicken me and practices like yours will do nothing but stagnate the scene as you attempt to reap all the benefits.
exactly. they clearly kept the conditions as sparse as possible and had very little regard for taking care of players. all they wanted was the money and a shimmering (FAKE) reputation.
Kittens are just a manipuation, they shouldn't be in the post regarding such a serious matter. ESPECIALLY when your reputation as professional is at stake. Just a little too rude manipulation.
OMG, one unhappy player and the whole house somehow becomes FAIL. Even thou you know that they are taking their first steps in this business. Even thou they said they will make amendments.
OMG, the guys runs a business and wants to make living at the expense of his customers (that is the player he houses). How cruel! Who would have thought that.
Grab your pitchforks and hop on the rage train. It's so much fun
This is almost a total agreement and a try to apologize on Fuzer's statement. I mean, srsly MoW get your things straight, even if you're at the start of you project these things are unacceptable!
And btw the kittens at the end, is this tumblr or what? This is a serious post about an difficult issue about money and then something like that...
It's funny that SETT article does not mention that (after a long time) almost all prices where paid to the teams participating. The polish article states that 6000 of the 7000 prize pool was paid out in one way or another in May 2011. At that time one team did not get their prize (1000 PLN = 250 euros). Hopefully this was sorted out by now.
On September 14 2012 08:20 CeriseCherries wrote: the kittens are super cute but made me lose respect by leaps and bounds for the prose.
i mean yea some people are taking the drama too far... but like a sorry we will try to be even better or whatever is a good touch
i mean when aristotle wrote about rhetoric, he described ethos, pathos, logos, and insulting your audience's intelligence by giving them cute pictures and using that as an apology. oh wait. he didnt talk about the last one.
What prose? His writing was pretentious and trying too hard. The entire post had a TON of awkward word usage and some that was even flat out wrong.
dudes you should get someone that can write english well if you wanna appear like a professional business. I couldn't even understand what some of the sentences meant because they are too wordy and have grammatical errors. I stopped reading after like the 2nd paragraph.
On September 14 2012 19:52 tyner wrote: dudes you should get someone that can write english well if you wanna appear like a professional business. I couldn't even understand what some of the sentences meant because they are too wordy and have grammatical errors. I stopped reading after like the 2nd paragraph.
Which part of that post don't you understand? I bet I can explain anything.
I thought that TL was international site and you would expect that not everyone will have perfect English here.
the kittens was to lighten up this situation and not make it so tence thats really all it was for. I do not understand why ever one is bashin MoW. fuzer GAVE THEM money BEFFOR sighing ANY papaer work, (thats if what i am hearing is true). its his own falt for that issue. Now did MoW handdle this right? absolutely not, you want people to pay you to use this gaming house fine but then you sneek in a added paymen that is mandatory thats IS some shaddy shit...
On September 14 2012 20:09 nikoYO wrote: its funny that in an esports community many of the polish members are offended just because its a polish house???
dudes, its the internetz, borders or nationalities shouldnt matter. stop with your patriotism and nationalism pls. its getting old.
Thats why i'm sorry to hear you will don't understand this song :D
On September 14 2012 20:09 nikoYO wrote: its funny that in an esports community many of the polish members are offended just because its a polish house???
dudes, its the internetz, borders or nationalities shouldnt matter. stop with your patriotism and nationalism pls. its getting old.
Thats why i'm sorry to hear you will don't understand this song :D
thats why i hope someone will finally ban you. you spout nonsense for the last 20 pages.
Forcing a person to pay a large amount of money before they even agree to something is seems wrong, especially when you don't don't say it's non-refundable, but you still don't refund it.
On September 14 2012 19:52 tyner wrote: dudes you should get someone that can write english well if you wanna appear like a professional business. I couldn't even understand what some of the sentences meant because they are too wordy and have grammatical errors. I stopped reading after like the 2nd paragraph.
"Since the public has been exposed only to the last and most fierce statements we feel compelled to put them into perspective and disclosing the bigger story."
This contains a grammatical error right?
either it should be: ' and are disclosing' or 'and to disclose' ?
On September 14 2012 20:11 shad321 wrote: Please quote which nonsense you mean
sorry i did confuse you with the other dude above you. but this post explains that you cant even grasp what the community has a problem with how MOW does business (if you wanna call that amateurish handling of the matter even business)
From My point of view situation looks like this. 1. Duzer with MoW have some agreement that he comes to MoW probably for 2 months. He wanted to look at the house first before signing contract to look if environment, food etc. is acceptable for him. And if so, he will sing the contract. 2. According everything that was said by MoW statements, and Fuzer, he gave him contrat week/two weeks after he was already in the house and probably said that he likes it. 3. The contract was rejected by Duzer, because he doesn't like some statements. It was standard procedure in MoW to negotiate the contract, as we was said by other players who was there, and statements from MoW, that for example ammount streaming hours for players may differ, the same for twitch percent for streaming. We shouldn't forget part where players in MoW get opportunity to actually make money on stream, which Fuzer didn't have earlier ( Twitch partnership ). So if you earning 0$ and have opportunity to make i.e. 8$ after cut was taken, this is good for both players and house. Some of you doesn't know this. 4. So let's focus on this that Fuzer saw this contract few weeks after his department. So why he doesn't ask for his lawyer at start ? Why he said that THIS THIS AND THIS should be corrected only ? 5. Let say that they corrected things that was pointed from Fuzer, and then He found some another issues ? They corrected it and again something is not correct, which earlier was stated as 'OK'. 6. After few weeks of negotiating contract suddenly Fuzer said another excuse why he wouldn't sing the contract, because suddenly He does not understand this contract and need a lawyer. Ok,They ask for credential of lawyer by skan ( i think this was just to ensure that he isn't delaying signing contract deliberately. Some of you in previous posts has said, that Name will be sufficient, so my lawyer will be Bardy Rahikkala Law Office , so check internet.^^ As you can see getting name of Finland lawyer from internet is not a problem ant probably they thinked that if they allow him to give just a name he will find it in internet. Some of you may say that credential shouldn't be necessary, because every one he trust could be his adviser. That's true but i think, that at that point they doesn't trust Fuzer with anything, so to be sure they asked for it and the funny part is that Fuzer agrees to this terms of skan of lawyer credentials. Few days after he said that he wont do this. The question is why? It is a simple matter to ask my lawyer to skan me his credentials and i'm sure he was just stalling ) 7. So we are ending in a dead point, because Fuzer doesn't want to do anything with contract. 8. The biggest decision information is, what king of agreement was made before he came to Mow. If it was said that if He came and like house, he must sing contract ? OR If he just came to home and pay money and nothing more. 9. Nevertheless if they didn't sign contract whit him they have 2 options. Left him for rest of month and GTFO, or GTFO in the middle of the month, but they should give Him the money ( If no verbal agreements were made about some regulations i.e. about signing a contract ). 10. Skype drama - This is the worst part in this whole drama. I wondered how I would have behaved in this situation and i think this is just as FXOBOSS said about culture of power. He wanted to show Fuzer how important this contract is, because without it, he had no confirmation about anything, even paid money. I regret that Fuzer didn't wait to see if money were transferred to his account. We as people often said one thing when we are nervous and we behave differently when emotions have subsided 11. Conclusions: Both sides acted childish and irresponsible. Fuzer for unwillingness to sign the contract for whatever reason he has ( please take in mind that every other player who lived in house hasn't such trouble ), and the MoW management for talking before thinking, and for acting before thinking, for taking Fuzer without contract, so basically for NOT THINKING. I hope this will be lesson for house management, but after seeing how many hate, is in this thread, i would swear that you guys all live there, know better that rest of player what is good for them, and that food is bad, streaming hours are terrible, and 10 years of not able to CRATE your own gaming house(not to join them as many of you thinks). You also forgot that this contract was made with first players in house, so saying that something is unacceptable for players is just silly. I think that prices of Iphone for example are very silly compared to functionality, but there are millions of people who think differently about this, so please be so kind, to analyse by yourself and don't force you TRUTH as the only just and fair for everyone. Sorry for my gramma, but English is not my native. I usually just browse and read TL and very seldom write, because everything was already said, but in this case i wanted to add my 2 cents. And please don't bash me for what i'm just thinking. Everyone has right to his opinion. Kind regards ShaD321
On September 14 2012 20:18 nikoYO wrote: sorry i did confuse you with the other dude above you. but this post explains that you cant even grasp what the community has a problem with how MOW does business (if you wanna call that amateurish handling of the matter even business)
The community (at least a vocal part of it) is providing us with a great mix of tunnel vision and pitchforking madness.
MoW failed hard with Fuzer, yeah, that's bad. Still, they seem to go along with every other player living in the house and it should be taken into consideration while judging the professional aspect of the whole endeavour.
They said that amendments will be made, but it seems that pitchfork wielders do not get the idea behind it. Yeah, esports is 100% serial (see SP / Manbearpig for reference).
So let's forget about every other player that enjoyed the MoW house, get everyone out of it (have you seen posts like: OMG TL must get Ret out of the house ASAP!!!!).
Then MoW crew should burn the house down to the ground and hang themselves on the nearby tree. Pitchforking mob would then come along and desecrate their bodies and then, perhaps, esports would be saved once again.
On September 14 2012 20:18 nikoYO wrote: sorry i did confuse you with the other dude above you. but this post explains that you cant even grasp what the community has a problem with how MOW does business (if you wanna call that amateurish handling of the matter even business)
The community (at least a vocal part of it) is providing us with a great mix of tunnel vision and pitchforking madness.
MoW failed hard with Fuzer, yeah, that's bad. Still, they seem to go along with every other player living in the house and it should be taken into consideration while judging the professional aspect of the whole endeavour.
They said that amendments will be made, but it seems that pitchfork wielders do not get the idea behind it. Yeah, esports is 100% serial (see SP / Manbearpig for reference).
So let's forget about every other player that enjoyed the MoW house, get everyone out of it (have you seen posts like: OMG TL must get Ret out of the house ASAP!!!!).
Then MoW crew should burn the house down to the ground and hang themselves on the nearby tree. Pitchforking mob would then come along and desecrate their bodies and then, perhaps, esports would be saved once again.
pitchforking mob...but why? you fuck up, you get what you deserve. its not too difficult, just do good business. it really isnt hard. its common sense.
you dont strongarm people (22:00 h sign or out) you dont blackmail him (skype convo) oh and you dont try to scam the COD tourney... (oh yeah he paid once again AFTER people made it public and put pressure on him)
edit: and no they shouldnt burn the house to the ground or hang themselves. just get rid of this bad manager
On September 14 2012 20:44 nikoYO wrote: pitchforking mob...but why? you fuck up, you get what you deserve. its not too difficult, just do good business. it really isnt hard. its common sense.
you dont strongarm people (22:00 h sign or out) you dont blackmail him (skype convo) oh and you dont try to scam the COD tourney... (oh yeah he paid once again AFTER people made it public and put pressure on him)
No, you don't strongarm people. This was a fail. Amendments were promised. No, you don't blackmail people. This was a fail. Fuzer was finally paid. No, you don't scam the COD tourney. This was a fail too. But hey, it's not like this is the only tourney in the world that ended up with delaying the payments, you can look it up on TL. And it was finally sorted out. And it was not run by MoW.
MoW does deserve some recognition for all the other things they've done over the last couple of months.
How come it didnt surprise me the guy already has a scamming background? Yes, I mean the CoD tournament which was played in shitty conditions and took long time before they even paid the prizes(not sure if everything is even paid).
Why not post this to the end instead of kittens? Would have given the same amount of professionalism.
Well, I still hope they can get over this and the house keeps rolling. Looks like the other players are happy and they dont have any problems. The esports need more gaming houses to grow this bigger, and maybe we could get more after MoW showing the way(not very good way yet lol). I hope the shitstorm taught them a lesson.
I don't have any sympathy for MoW. There is no excuse for not giving someone a copy of the contract before they sign it, to do whatever they want with. And there is no excuse for misrepresenting the content of a contract and then acting like 'oh we would never enforce it' WRONG, if you weren't to enforce it, you don't make a contract. You don't refuse to give someone a copy of the contract, and then decide tell them 'either sign the contract today or leave'.
It's disgusting and a perfect reason to always give someone a copy of the contract to inspect before they make a deal to come visit. If not then it is only your fault when they don't want to sign.
On September 14 2012 20:44 nikoYO wrote: pitchforking mob...but why? you fuck up, you get what you deserve. its not too difficult, just do good business. it really isnt hard. its common sense.
you dont strongarm people (22:00 h sign or out) you dont blackmail him (skype convo) oh and you dont try to scam the COD tourney... (oh yeah he paid once again AFTER people made it public and put pressure on him)
No, you don't strongarm people. This was a fail. Amendments were promised. No, you don't blackmail people. This was a fail. Fuzer was finally paid. No, you don't scam the COD tourney. This was a fail too. But hey, it's not like this is the only tourney in the world that ended up with delaying the payments, you can look it up on TL. And it was finally sorted out. And it was not run by MoW.
MoW does deserve some recognition for all the other things they've done over the last couple of months.
so he just made some mistakes twice or what ever no big deal. but first oh wait lets get a biased article on esfi so we look good...mhm still not enough.wtf is wrong with people? ok lets make a statement that says nothing. damn still not enough. mhm ok lets take a day and make a nice lawyer/PR speak article because we are serious. here are kittens.
how many more bad businesses does esports need? the house might be a good concept. the players here said it was good because the people in the house are good. and i dont think they ment the staff or the cleaning lady. basicly the other players.
recognition? for what? for providing what they advertised? (they didnt even do that , the food, the psychologist, the massager thingy?) so what now? are they a charity that deservers recognition or are they getting money to provide a service?
On September 14 2012 21:00 nikoYO wrote: so he just made some mistakes twice or what ever no big deal. but first oh wait lets get a biased article on esfi so we look good...mhm still not enough.wtf is wrong with people? ok lets make a statement that says nothing. damn still not enough. mhm ok lets take a day and make a nice lawyer/PR speak article because we are serious. here are kittens.
You can go on with hairsplitting even further. Split the same thing into 1000 parts more. It is still a single incident: MoW failed to deal with Fuzer.
This is how I see it. One "Fuzer incident" at MoW over a couple months. For me it's not enough to kick people out.
how many more bad businesses does esports need? the house might be a good concept. the players here said it was good because the people in the house are good. and i dont think they ment the staff or the cleaning lady. basicly the other players.
MoW is a good business once you get rid of your tunnel vision.
recognition? for what? for providing what they advertised? (they didnt even do that , the food, the psychologist, the massager thingy?) so what now? are they a charity that deservers recognition or are they getting money to provide a service?
Just a lot of vague statements. What statements should have really come out was:
The contract does not enforce 5 hours streaming time. The contract does not prevent you from playing in another game house.
Instead, it's just bs how they wont be stopping anyone from doing xyz.
And secondly, offering back his own rent money in exchange of shutting up is simply unethical. There is just no info in this post that wasn't there in those meaningless press releases few days back.
On September 14 2012 21:00 nikoYO wrote: so he just made some mistakes twice or what ever no big deal. but first oh wait lets get a biased article on esfi so we look good...mhm still not enough.wtf is wrong with people? ok lets make a statement that says nothing. damn still not enough. mhm ok lets take a day and make a nice lawyer/PR speak article because we are serious. here are kittens.
You can go on with hairsplitting even further. Split the same thing into 1000 parts more. It is still a single incident: MoW failed to deal with Fuzer.
This is how I see it. One "Fuzer incident" at MoW over a couple months. For me it's not enough to kick people out.
how many more bad businesses does esports need? the house might be a good concept. the players here said it was good because the people in the house are good. and i dont think they ment the staff or the cleaning lady. basicly the other players.
MoW is a good business once you get rid of your tunnel vision.
recognition? for what? for providing what they advertised? (they didnt even do that , the food, the psychologist, the massager thingy?) so what now? are they a charity that deservers recognition or are they getting money to provide a service?
your nationalist BS is obvious btw
On TL my nationality is Terran actually
guess you are really resitant. i give up. your arguments are to good. (the tunnel vision, its a good business just pushed me over.)
MOW did everything right! lets hope more people learn that you can do what ever you want, and dont fear any backlash whatsoever. good business!
With utmost sadness we have observed some of the details being released, at times partial and without proper context. This should have not happened under no circumstances and we fully acknowledge our managemental shortcomings in that regard. ...
Double negative...? You're not really saying anything here. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you meant "under ANY circumstances".
... 1. First and foremost Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen or any other guest of the house has not been, or will be stopped from pursuing a professional e-sport carrier beyond the Ministry of Win by means of a legal document or a verbal agreement. ...
They haven't been, but they might be...?
This statement is correct even if the contract says that they can't do it. You're just saying that you haven't acted on it YET.
But then you go on to say that not only can they join a team/prohouse/tournament but they WILL join teams/prohouses/tournaments!! I guess I'll give you the benefit of the doubt again: you meant to say "has not been and will not be stopped".
on Tuesday the 11th Samuli has been asked to either sign the contract or leave until 22:00. Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
...yeah, he just sorta went like "no its cool you can have it."???
very good post. this just shows the similarities to esports now and the early days of the music/film industry. strong arming them, blackmail and contracts that are so full of BS .
On September 14 2012 21:19 nikoYO wrote: guess you are really resitant. i give up. your arguments are to good. (the tunnel vision, its a good business just pushed me over.)
MOW did everything right! lets hope more people learn that you can do what ever you want, and dont fear any backlash whatsoever. good business!
I admitted in almost every post that MoW failed. The question at hand is what should happen next. I don't agree with the "kick the guy out" idea based upon single Fuzer incident and one failed unrelated CoD tournament from 2 years ago.
I believe MoW will get better through all this and they did deserve the backlash, but it went too far.
Also, large number of satisfied players (compared to single Fuzer) make MoW a good business. That's simple as that.
On September 14 2012 20:44 nikoYO wrote: pitchforking mob...but why? you fuck up, you get what you deserve. its not too difficult, just do good business. it really isnt hard. its common sense.
you dont strongarm people (22:00 h sign or out) you dont blackmail him (skype convo) oh and you dont try to scam the COD tourney... (oh yeah he paid once again AFTER people made it public and put pressure on him)
No, you don't strongarm people. This was a fail. Amendments were promised. No, you don't blackmail people. This was a fail. Fuzer was finally paid. No, you don't scam the COD tourney. This was a fail too. But hey, it's not like this is the only tourney in the world that ended up with delaying the payments, you can look it up on TL. And it was finally sorted out. And it was not run by MoW.
MoW does deserve some recognition for all the other things they've done over the last couple of months.
Where was it actually stated that Fuzer got paid? I didn't see this.
due to this incident, i bet MoW will now be more aware of their current situation they are in as a business. i believe this incident will only make them better, but they have to do more than before to earn the trust back and get back on track.
Can a Moderator please update the OP to clarify that Fuzer has been refunded the money he was owed?
Personally, I am completely happy with the way this has finally been resolved.
I hope MoW are serious when they say that they'll be taking steps to ensure situations like this don't happen in future, and for now I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. With any luck stuff like this won't happen again and we won't be hearing any uncalled for grievances from people already in the MoW.
I'm still kind of surprised how they handled the whole contract situation. If you make revisions to a contract at someone's request you can't just ask them to take you at your word that you made the revisions correctly. Why wouldn't they allow him to have his lawyer look at it again to make sure everything was in order? I would NEVER sign a contract of any kind without my lawyer looking at it.
I know that at one point they had mentioned they wanted to see his lawyer's credentials before letting him see it which is also asinine, who cares if his lawyer is legit or not? If his lawyer isn't legit he's either 1.) going to tell him the contract is good to sign when it's not or 2.) he's just going to make stupid recommendations at which point they could have just stopped the process. The fact that they prevented him from having the contract reviewed bodes a lot worse for MoW than it does for how Fuzer handled that particular interaction.
Still difficult to tell what exactly to make from this whole situation and I don't agree with the way both sides handled themselves but hopefully it was at least a good learning experience for everyone.
" Okay, looks like they want to learn from their mistakes. I got the money they owed me in my Paypal account and that side of the story is now cleared. They don't owe me money from the rent anymore. "
OK! Threads over, the thing that sucked the most about this ordeal has been solved. Time to move on, close this thread please, it hurts my brain.
Im glad I waited a few days to post because I would have reflexively defended fuzer, and would now have to backpeddle or make up some other greivance. Is it a sticky situation, and can MoW improve on their business practices? Absolutely. Is it worth crucifying them for? Hell no. I forgive.
Another poll should go alongside this one, like: do yo have any idea how much work did boss do for MoW before the Fuzer incident and how did he handle it?
Well, of course you don't, you focus only on single piece of failure to support your pitchforking idiocy.
On September 14 2012 21:00 nikoYO wrote: so he just made some mistakes twice or what ever no big deal. but first oh wait lets get a biased article on esfi so we look good...mhm still not enough.wtf is wrong with people? ok lets make a statement that says nothing. damn still not enough. mhm ok lets take a day and make a nice lawyer/PR speak article because we are serious. here are kittens.
You can go on with hairsplitting even further. Split the same thing into 1000 parts more. It is still a single incident: MoW failed to deal with Fuzer.
This is how I see it. One "Fuzer incident" at MoW over a couple months. For me it's not enough to kick people out.
how many more bad businesses does esports need? the house might be a good concept. the players here said it was good because the people in the house are good. and i dont think they ment the staff or the cleaning lady. basicly the other players.
MoW is a good business once you get rid of your tunnel vision.
recognition? for what? for providing what they advertised? (they didnt even do that , the food, the psychologist, the massager thingy?) so what now? are they a charity that deservers recognition or are they getting money to provide a service?
your nationalist BS is obvious btw
On TL my nationality is Terran actually
Let me get this clear, I think nobody here on TL, regardless of his/her opinion regarding the Fuzer incident, ever doubted that MoW is good business.
On September 14 2012 21:52 Achaia wrote: I'm still kind of surprised how they handled the whole contract situation. If you make revisions to a contract at someone's request you can't just ask them to take you at your word that you made the revisions correctly. Why wouldn't they allow him to have his lawyer look at it again to make sure everything was in order? I would NEVER sign a contract of any kind without my lawyer looking at it.
well according to Fuzer himself, he asked to have his lawyer look at the contract. MoW then asked to see his lawyers licence and credentials (to make sure hes a real, qualified lawyer) and nothing happened, no contact from said lawyer. at that point they told him to sign it or leave. I work under contracts as a musician, my agent has a solicitor (UK equiv of lawyer) that looks over the contracts for me but on a few occasions I lost a contract because the solicitor didn't get around to it and the deadline for signing it had passed.... I won't sign a contract that I don't understand and companies have deadlines to meet.... pretty standard really.
I can understand why he would legal advice and I can also understand why MoW would want to verify that said legal advice is coming from an actual legal practitioner or else Fuzer could have just sent the contract to his mother and got her to make amendments.
The whole thing is pretty messed up but there is fault on both sides, you don't ask for your lawyer to go over the contract and then either refuse or not bother to get him/her to e-mail the company and verify their credentials.
On September 14 2012 20:13 Xapti wrote: Forcing a person to pay a large amount of money before they even agree to something is seems wrong, especially when you don't don't say it's non-refundable, but you still don't refund it.
was he FORCED to pay befor doing any paper work? can i get some confermation on this pls
Another poll should go alongside this one, like: do yo have any idea how much work did boss do for MoW before the Fuzer incident and how did he handle it?
Well, of course you don't, you focus only on single piece of failure to support your pitchforking idiocy.
what's your problem? Afraid to know what community thinks of your precious Boss? Relax, we are not gonna fire him because we cant.
Don't care, they're just a business run by people with passion and some resources but no experience or knowledge how to run a proper training facility, let alone forge new talents. They'll need years to get this thing running like everyone expected it.
On September 14 2012 23:34 JustPassingBy wrote: Oh, and by the way, I am still waiting for the skype log which proves that Fuzer actually turned down the refund.
It's the first skype blog that ever got out posted by MoW boss?
On September 14 2012 21:52 Achaia wrote: I'm still kind of surprised how they handled the whole contract situation. If you make revisions to a contract at someone's request you can't just ask them to take you at your word that you made the revisions correctly. Why wouldn't they allow him to have his lawyer look at it again to make sure everything was in order? I would NEVER sign a contract of any kind without my lawyer looking at it.
well according to Fuzer himself, he asked to have his lawyer look at the contract. MoW then asked to see his lawyers licence and credentials (to make sure hes a real, qualified lawyer) and nothing happened, no contact from said lawyer. at that point they told him to sign it or leave. I work under contracts as a musician, my agent has a solicitor (UK equiv of lawyer) that looks over the contracts for me but on a few occasions I lost a contract because the solicitor didn't get around to it and the deadline for signing it had passed.... I won't sign a contract that I don't understand and companies have deadlines to meet.... pretty standard really.
I can understand why he would legal advice and I can also understand why MoW would want to verify that said legal advice is coming from an actual legal practitioner or else Fuzer could have just sent the contract to his mother and got her to make amendments.
The whole thing is pretty messed up but there is fault on both sides, you don't ask for your lawyer to go over the contract and then either refuse or not bother to get him/her to e-mail the company and verify their credentials.
The problem is that lawyers would never email their credentials because it makes absolutely no sense. Just how would someone in Poland verify the validity of a Finnish lawyer credential in email? What you do is ask for lawyer's name and firm and then look him up in directory / registry.
Also MoW didn't give Fuzer enough time (only 1 business day IIRC), and it was certainly less than 3 days.
On September 14 2012 21:52 Achaia wrote: I'm still kind of surprised how they handled the whole contract situation. If you make revisions to a contract at someone's request you can't just ask them to take you at your word that you made the revisions correctly. Why wouldn't they allow him to have his lawyer look at it again to make sure everything was in order? I would NEVER sign a contract of any kind without my lawyer looking at it.
well according to Fuzer himself, he asked to have his lawyer look at the contract. MoW then asked to see his lawyers licence and credentials (to make sure hes a real, qualified lawyer) and nothing happened, no contact from said lawyer. at that point they told him to sign it or leave. I work under contracts as a musician, my agent has a solicitor (UK equiv of lawyer) that looks over the contracts for me but on a few occasions I lost a contract because the solicitor didn't get around to it and the deadline for signing it had passed.... I won't sign a contract that I don't understand and companies have deadlines to meet.... pretty standard really.
I can understand why he would legal advice and I can also understand why MoW would want to verify that said legal advice is coming from an actual legal practitioner or else Fuzer could have just sent the contract to his mother and got her to make amendments.
The whole thing is pretty messed up but there is fault on both sides, you don't ask for your lawyer to go over the contract and then either refuse or not bother to get him/her to e-mail the company and verify their credentials.
The problem is that lawyers would never email their credentials because it makes absolutely no sense. Just how would someone in Poland verify the validity of a Finnish lawyer credential in email? What you do is ask for lawyer's name and firm and then look him up in directory / registry.
Also MoW didn't give Fuzer enough time (only 1 business day IIRC), and it was certainly less than 3 days.
it was 3 days or so, but it was a weekend, so 2 non-work days lol
Another poll should go alongside this one, like: do yo have any idea how much work did boss do for MoW before the Fuzer incident and how did he handle it?
Well, of course you don't, you focus only on single piece of failure to support your pitchforking idiocy.
All that work is irellevant. One failure of this magnitude is all it takes to ruin your reputation. This was a HUGE failure on MOW's part, in almost all aspects of how they handeled it. It displays poor professionalism and a severe lack of ability to correct their own mistakes. It would be idiocy to play this off as a singular event. This whole situation speaks volumes to what we can expect from MOW... and it doesn't look promising at all...
On September 14 2012 23:34 JustPassingBy wrote: Oh, and by the way, I am still waiting for the skype log which proves that Fuzer actually turned down the refund.
It's the first skype blog that ever got out posted by MoW boss?
the one with "you want a war?"
Oh, really? That was what they meant? But then the op is either outright lying, or at least shamelessly trying to defame Fuzer by leaving out key facts.
They made this:
1. Fuzer refuses to sign and leaves the house 2. Fuzer asks for a partial refund of his money 3. Boss declines a partial refund 4. Fuzer decides to go public with this incident 5. Boss concedes and offers a partial refund 6. Fuzer declines
into this:
1. Fuzer refuses to sign and leaves the house 2. Boss offers a partial refund 3. Fuzer declines
Whether lying or leaving out facts depends on how you understand the "upon" in
Words unbefitting a gentleman have been said, fences have not been mended and as a result on Tuesday the 11th Samuli has been asked to either sign the contract or leave until 22:00. Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
On September 15 2012 00:57 SupLilSon wrote: All that work is irellevant. One failure of this magnitude is all it takes to ruin your reputation. This was a HUGE failure on MOW's part, in almost all aspects of how they handeled it. It displays poor professionalism and a severe lack of ability to correct their own mistakes. It would be idiocy to play this off as a singular event. This whole situation speaks volumes to what we can expect from MOW... and it doesn't look promising at all...
I simply disagree.It's a matter of your attitude really. If I see that everyone expect Fuzer is happy with MoW then MoW is still doing okay.
You can go ahead and focus on this regrettable incident, I can still see the big picture and all the cool things MoW managed to do over the last couple of months. And I encourage everyone else to consider it before taking a vote in that stupid poll.
Words unbefitting a gentleman have been said, fences have not been mended and as a result on Tuesday the 11th Samuli has been asked to either sign the contract or leave until 22:00. Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
Okay, that's a good one.
The definition by dictionary.com states (upon):
4. immediately or very soon after: She went into mourning upon her husband's death.
So Fuzer leaves on 11.9.2012 before 22:00 and is offered the refund on 12.9.2012 at around 17:00... Is this very soon after or not? I'd say yes, but perhaps we need another poll on that
Are you serious? You consider yourself a business organisation and try to restore your fractured image by posting pictures of cats?
"Hey, sorry big American fruit logo company. Here are pictures of some puppies, we are cool, aren't we?" "Oh, you neat little Korean phone company, you are soooo sweet. Have some of my candies."
If you try to screw people with fishy contracts, be at least mature enough not to act like a giggling school girl and just confess your escapade.
I believe that this is what the first public statement should have been(and that statement should have been given in the time frame you yourselves set).
This is a good step in the right direction though
I am glad that you are able to see that there were faults on both sides of this problem and that they could be fixed fairly easily if taken seriously.
(I do want to say that the kitten photos, while being very cute, probably should have been left out )
On September 15 2012 00:57 SupLilSon wrote: All that work is irellevant. One failure of this magnitude is all it takes to ruin your reputation. This was a HUGE failure on MOW's part, in almost all aspects of how they handeled it. It displays poor professionalism and a severe lack of ability to correct their own mistakes. It would be idiocy to play this off as a singular event. This whole situation speaks volumes to what we can expect from MOW... and it doesn't look promising at all...
I simply disagree.It's a matter of your attitude really. If I see that everyone expect Fuzer is happy with MoW then MoW is still doing okay.
You can go ahead and focus on this regrettable incident, I can still see the big picture and all the cool things MoW managed to do over the last couple of months. And I encourage everyone else to consider it before taking a vote in that stupid poll.
It's not really an agree or disagree situation. You can see from this thread that the communities view of MoW is now very negative, and for good reason. Just like EC pulling that stupid publicity stunt, people will not forget this quickly. And what exactly has MoW done in the past besides Battle at MOW?
On September 15 2012 01:37 SupLilSon wrote: It's not really an agree or disagree situation. You can see from this thread that the communities view of MoW is now very negative, and for good reason. Just like EC pulling that stupid publicity stunt, people will not forget this quickly. And what exactly has MoW done in the past besides Battle at MOW?
You can either feel that MoW did a step in the right direction with today's statement, refund for Fuzer and the promise of amendments or you can feel otherwise.
I feel that they did the step in the right direction and I do not care about the cats in their post.
You feel otherwise (and apparently majority of people in this thread), still, there are people who it's fine (like me for example). I was critical about the MoW in the "drama" thread. Here they did just enough to persuade me that things will get better.
And for the cool stuff about MoW: they run a pretty successful (with the expection of Fuzer), worldwide-unique esports endeavour and I think that it is a good thing to do.
a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
What an underhanded way to put it. This statement doesn't refute that you at first REFUSED to pay the guy back and then after being threatened offered to refund the cash.
Have to agree with this. Came close to blackmailing.
I had little doubt that Fuzer's statement was exaggerated and melodramatic, but the bottom line is that if there is a contract to be signed, then that MUST be a prerequisite to any irreversible financial transaction. If he takes objection to the contract and refuses to sign it, then you must refund his money immediately, as it was your decision not to show him that contract beforehand. If not on a morality principle, then purely on a business principle. He is paying you. Even if you are producing the contract, you are the company and he is the customer. If a business requires customers to view, negotiate, and sign an agreement on terms and conditions of transaction AFTER they have paid, and that too in secrecy as to the contents of that contract, that business is doomed to fail. You have to show your customers the contract before payment is finalized.
We are expressing our disapproval because we care (most of us, anyway). Ministry of Win represents a new level of dedication to the betterment of gamers and the quality of SC2 entertainment as a whole. Your success as a business can only be good for eSports and the StarCraft II community. We're rooting for you. Don't just brush off our advice as us haytin'!
In response to the Team Liquid forum post by Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen and the public debate surrounding it, we, the Ministry of Win, would like to shed some light on the facts regarding the matter at hand.
With utmost sadness we have observed some of the details being released, at times partial and without proper context. This should have not happened under no circumstances and we fully acknowledge our managemental shortcomings in that regard. There have been words said in the heat of the moment unbecoming to what we aspire to be, and certainly below the required standards that we would like to set for ourselves as a part of the e-sport community.
There are several concerns that have been pointed out that we would like to address below.
1. First and foremost Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen or any other guest of the house has not been, or will be stopped from pursuing a professional e-sport carrier beyond the Ministry of Win by means of a legal document or a verbal agreement. Players absolutely can and will join teams, pro-houses, will also participate in tournaments and other e-sport ventures.
2. Ministry of Win does not enforce on players the amount of hours they have to stream. It is a part of a business contract and both parties negotiate an agreement. We understand that players have come to the house for the sole purpose of perfecting their skills and thus we do not exact the agreed hours to the last detail. Most players view streaming as a key income source for themselves and so we give them the best opportunity to profit from it. Thanks to the strategic partnership between the Ministry of Win and Twitch.tv the CPM ratio is superior to that of an individual streaming on one’s own. Furthermore the players that had no Twitch.tv partnership prior to joining the house obtain a possibility to start monetizing their exposure instantly omitting the regular Twitch.tv partnership acquireing process.
3. The fee of 2 500 PLN (circa €600 or $785) is charged up front for full months of all inclusive stay in the house. This is the first consideration the players are presented with before coming to the house. Please note that the Ministry of Win is not a hotel thus all operations, including guest departures and arrivals, food and supply purchases, etc..., are planned and partially executed at least a month ahead with accordance to the players stay roster.
4. We are aware of the issues regarding food, that the players have risen and are looking to resolve them as soon as possible. Since the house has not yet been fully manned with players with frequent changes the provisioning schedule was the hardest to keep up to date.
Since the public has been exposed only to the last and most fierce statements we feel compelled to put them into perspective and disclosing the bigger story. As correctly identified by many members of the public, the key error on our part was allowing Samuli to come to the house before agreeing together on all the fine parts of the contract and signing it.
Samuli expressed his interest in joining the Ministry of Win. In order to meet his expectations we decided to invite him in and let him experience the house-life first hand, so that he could make a more educated decision with regards to the contract. A monthly fee of 2 500 PLN has been established, paid up front each month, which has been delivered in cash by Samuli on arrival to the house. Soon after the Ministry of Win contract has been presented to him negotiations and consultations began.
Finally all the amendments proposed by Samuli have been fully incorporated into the contract and the final version has been submitted for his approval on Saturday the 8th. By that time the second month payment has already been concluded. Samuli refused to sign the agreed contract containing his amendments and requested another consultation period.
This has been received as a stalling tactics and brought unnecessary and unprofessional tension to the conversation, which in retrospect could have been avoided especially on our side. Leading a company revolving around people requires unwavering patience and calm especially in tense situations and this is a major lesson for us in all our future dealings. Words unbefitting a gentleman have been said, fences have not been mended and as a result on Tuesday the 11th Samuli has been asked to either sign the contract or leave until 22:00. Upon announcing that he chose the latter, a refund for the remaining days has been offered and turned down.
In conclusion, the Ministry of Win would like to apologize the whole e-sport community, the players, the viewers, everyone related to the Starcraft 2 scene and especially we apologize to Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen. Mistakes have been made and unfortunately time cannot be turned back. We are aware that as professionals, we should not let emotions take control over us and the whole situation should not have happened in the first place. After all we are here to support and help e-sports grow.
We are making an effort to prevent such a situation from ever happening again. A revised wording of the contract is being developed and a more clear contractual procedure devised. We hope that other players will benefit from existance of our house and our e-sport venture will help advance their careers. Virgil said “Hard work conquers all” — so we will do our best to make it happen.
To compensate the community more than one hundred pages of drama on the Team Liquid forum and numerous further posts all around the Internet, please take comfort in those quite lovely kittens photos.
Why don't you simply post the contract for the community to view? This sounds more like ministry of fail. Your getting rent paid on a house, taking a significant cut of the streaming revenues. I'm not sure any business person would agree to this contract. The only thing you are offering is exposure. The people in this house appear to be selling the skins for that.
Stall tatic? It takes 2-3 days for an attorney to review a contract. Not really an unreasonable request unless you were afraid of what was going to be pointed out.
I'm guessing we will never see this "contract" as it was originally presented.
On September 14 2012 01:14 MinistryOfWin wrote: 1. First and foremost Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen or any other guest of the house has not been, or will be stopped from pursuing a professional e-sport carrier beyond the Ministry of Win by means of a legal document or a verbal agreement. Players absolutely can and will join teams, pro-houses, will also participate in tournaments and other e-sport ventures.
I see why Fuzer had his reservations about your english contract.
PS. @Blizzard, we really DO want our carriers back. edit: oh wait, its already back. some buffs would be nice
Glad your "professional statement" is ended with kitten photos............ Like are you serious? Stop perpetuating that eSports is a joke with your professionalism.
On September 14 2012 01:14 MinistryOfWin wrote: 1. First and foremost Samuli "Fuzer" Romppanen or any other guest of the house has not been, or will be stopped from pursuing a professional e-sport carrier beyond the Ministry of Win by means of a legal document or a verbal agreement. Players absolutely can and will join teams, pro-houses, will also participate in tournaments and other e-sport ventures.
I see why Fuzer had his reservations about your english contract.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.d-esports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/logo_png_twitter.png){kind=logo}
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