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On August 25 2012 19:01 jinorazi wrote:
so if gom extends the qualifiers for gsl 4, kespa is down. only going by what has been said officially, kespa can join gsl 4 if scheduling can be altered (once more?) since their original excuse was scheduling conflict.
i'm not sure why kespa is complicating things by trying to speak for everyone...just let the team decide who can compete based on their availability and willingness/readiness.
None of this has anything to do with scheduling.
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yeah, thanks op
Way easier to follow it this way
and thx for tranlation Nostalgia
I know its a lot of work but perhaps someone can write a text over the past.
Many of the new guys dont know the history between them and the kespas politi of not sending players.
Its kind of needed to understand whats going on.
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On August 25 2012 19:10 TheAmazombie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I don't think this is fair. I am arguing and disagreeing, but he has a point. In his point of view he thinks that GOM giving in to KeSPA will be better in the long-run for eSports, where as most of us disagree with that outlook due to KeSPA's past.
Many people have pointed this out before, so I don't really feel the need to go into it too deeply, but basically this is all just business, it is about who gets to run the first combined GSL / Kespa player tournament.
Anyone who argues against it being anything but fair that players from both organisation are allowed to participate in both tournaments at the same time is wrong. There is no other argument here, that is the fairest possible way. At the end of the day, the competition surrounding the tournaments should soley depend on whomever puts on the best production, or ideally both tournaments should be profitable and able to run - if the end goal is growing eSports.
I don't feel the need to comment any further, as there is no argument against this other then delusion or plain troll.
Thanks
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On August 25 2012 18:57 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 18:49 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 18:46 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." I think that their goal is to carry Korean E-Sports a step forward globally, and they feel that GOM and all of the foreign tourneys have done this. KeSPA has made a lot of claims about wanting to open up, but everyone, even the players, are skeptical of that, with good reason to be. They are fighting not just for GOM, but for the KeSPA players, the foreign players, and the fans globally I think. Most of the fans support GOM and what they have done for the community, that includes the SC2 pro players it appears. This is just short sighted us vs them mentality. Consider what the scene has to lose by this. If the first OS2L ends up bombing because of this there's pretty much zero chance of the BW fanbase transitioning to SC2. If kespa can't transition then SC2 loses out on a massive amount of money and infrastructure. Dropping out doesn't benefit the fans or the players. I just refuse to think that is such a horrible thing at this time. I think that if KeSPA failed, people, sponsors, and fans would not just "forget" and give up on this industry. Yes, there might be a loss, but there is still a huge fan base for people like Flash and JD. If the infrastructure fails, those guys will get picked up by another team somewhere, I am sure, and they will keep playing. As long as their are fans, there will be money. I understand your point of view, but I don't think that it is the end of the world nor do I think it would hurt Korean eSports as badly if KeSPA completely fucks this up. Kespa is the sponsors and in many ways they are Korean esports. What's going to happen to the players if kespa fails? Even if they get picked up by other teams they won't be getting paid nearly as much. Plus television airtime isn't something you can just find anywhere. People need to stop thinking of this as "our guy" GOM vs the boogeyman kespa and actually consider what each group is actually capable of. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 18:51 CoR wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." even MC who isnt part of them follow the ESF direction ... you have a pointless stand and your pretty much the 1% on kespa side, kespa tryed EVERYTHING to DESTROY gom in sc1, they make it so hard in the end that gom had to STOP make their tournaments because kespa boykott everything and now they make the same in sc2 and its NOT possible to allow that a real fan not allow gom to die ... anyone who supports THAT kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of esport ... you are a fan of dictatorship of 1 organisation who NOT is known for support foreign things so you will have no good english cast etc etc ... jaeh your pointless! Kespa tried to destroy GOM? GOM is and always has been Blizzard's lapdog. Guess who tried and succeeded at destroyed kespa's flagship game? Look past the spin and see what's really going on here.
I won't jump the gun and judge you, because you might have a point. But please elaborate on your claims, don't hold back anything. In that case we know the real situation behind the contending parties.
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Kespa needs ESF players just for a short time, until they fully transition to sc2 and have gained momentum in exposure thanks to ESF vs Kespa matchups in first OSL. I would bet anything that given time, Kespa would allow only their players to play in OSL, which would completely destory current ESF teams, making a lot of their players either go foreign or retire.
ESF needs to ensure that both leagues have both Kespa and ESF players as that is the only way in which they don't get destroyed by OGN.
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On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
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On August 25 2012 19:10 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... im beginning to think he is one of kespa employees lol
Haha I got this impression too.
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There are 4 Kespa teams that still have to play BW for at least another month. I think the decision to not participate in GSL4 has a strong argument in that.
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On August 25 2012 19:27 Kergy wrote:
There are 4 Kespa teams that still have to play BW for at least another month. I think the decision to not participate in GSL4 has a strong argument in that.
I think if Kespa said that all their players could participate from GSL5 and onwards, there wouldn't be a problem.
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On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier.
Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing.
On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever.
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Its not about time.
Its not about gsl4
Its about:
Do kesba players can play in any gom event they want in future, or is kespa deciding this for them for every singe event...
i dont see any short term solution. there is no way kespa can now join gsl4. They would loose their face.
And this is not a "korean culture" thing. That would be the same everywhere.
Im looking forward for the big battle that should have happened long, long time ago.
Better a clear solution after the fight than several years sc2 with million little fights between companys about every tournament and split competition.
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Has anyone noticed that another potential F-you strategy KeSPA could pull is to drag the standoff out until they can't actually compete in the Qualifiers anymore? Then they have a valid 'excuse', and they'll attempt to call scum-bag on ESF if they remain out of the OSL.
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On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever.
A lot of the Korean players worked for KeSPA at one time. There are quite a few BW pros in SC2 in Korea and they don't want it to get back to where KeSPA was making the decisions for them, telling them what to wear, when to take pictures, when to talk to fans, what tourneys they can play in. You have to think of it from the player perspective, they lived it before, and they think that the current state and growth would better be achieved through the unified deal that was forged earlier in the year. They aren't trying to destroy or push KeSPA out, they are not saying that KeSPA needs to stay away, but based on the past dealing with the group, KeSPA wants to control EVERYTHING having to due with ESports in Korea and most of the players, teams, and fans agree that this new model (more international support, more global coverage, various Korean leagues) is a better model than the "KeSPA decides who will play and when in what tourney" model.
They feel that the recent moves by KeSPA was against their "Esports Vision" and a power-play attempt to take the scene back over. No one wants that. I don't think that KeSPA wants to ruin ESports, but that they are built on an antiquated system of control that the players (Yes, KeSPA players as well) feel is outdated and denies the global reach of SC2.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever.
Hmm, remember Gretech and GOM in BW? They we're gone because of KeSPA.
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On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever.
So apparently everyones claim is baseless, but somehow yours are full of support. You have yet to refute a point against Kespa. All you have done is to "say no" to our points, while flaunting your opinions as fact. We are not attacking the leagues, teams, or players. We are attacking Kespa's iron grip on everything they see.
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On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever.
even more baseless counter claims of kespa being a benevolent overlord
oh wait many years of brood war taught us different
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Korea (South)664 Posts
On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. If you think this is the first time kespa has done this to GOM, then you are wrong.
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Episode V The Empire strikes back,coming soon.
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The thing is, KESPA let everyone think that from GSL 4, Kespa players could play in GSL.
Then OGN has his group selection show, which is a huge success.
Then GSL should have his code A qualifiers, including Kespa players.
Then Kespa says "Oops, sorry, no Kespa players for you".
OSL will benefit from the whole hype and suddenly appear like the premier sc2 tournament, while GSL is relegated to a half scene tournament. This is all business as someone posted, and if GSL wants to survive they can't allow their resources to be pirated without compensation.
I'm not talking about the ethics, but the boycott makes sense from a business pov.
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Wake me up when all of this is over. What is the problem really here? Money? Sponsorship? Previous bad blood?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/raVou.jpg)
