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On August 25 2012 19:51 ne4aJIb wrote:
Kespa will just replace GSL players with Kespa's, I guess they will just make one day tournament to replace them.
Wow. That changes everything. Kespa has my respect now, such a boss move.
The way I see it from a business and power point of veiw, it's like this (and I know how businesses can be cunning and brutal):
Blizzard: Kespa, time's up, no more broodwarts, die bitch hahahaha, and oh, we partner with gom
Kespa: huhuhu, ok we kill broodwar, peace. let us join party?
GOM: ok, cooperation yesyesyes!
Kespa: yesyes, we have players, you have players, let's play!
(Kespa players start to improve)
Kespa (evil laugh, thinks to self): You kill our broodwar, watch what we do to you pieces of shits
Kespa: Ok we join forces and have our own tournaments, we send to you, you send to us
GOM: Really, teary eyes
Kespa: ooops, we can handle our own now. Fuck you bitches and your "tournamentlol"
GOM/ESF/etc: WTF Kespa
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 25 2012 19:58 MCXD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:55 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:53 Battle toad wrote:
I know very little about StarCraft 2 other than 5-games a day and my Day(9) dailies (compared to most), However i am a business investor that works within the Energy Sector.
I feel that preventing market saturation within an industry that is currently still in its infancy actually hinders a process of globalisation, which is what both the "consumers" and businesses (more so) really need to be incentivised to want to be in involved with competitive gaming.
While I understand there may be a conflict of interest from Kespas perspective I think the decision to limit exposure to what is currently a very niche marketplace is actually extremely short sighted and detrimental to the industry as a whole, in the long-term.(Even more so considering the dependence on sponsorships).
Apart from conveying an extremely negative image to a very informed consumer base, which Kespa will struggle to recover from. It means they are limiting awareness for a product that has yet to be fully globalised, which is … well its stupid.
As a simple Analogy: I could never trade energy with a business that had been un-touched by my competition, there would be no infrastructure, or desire for power, because everything runs on gas.
Selling competitive gaming would be a lot easier if they approached an already aware consumer base.
They should simply rely on having a superior product.
Exactly. I think that their system of control is antiquated and that they don't truly understand the state of global SC2, nor do they understand the players and fans. Frankly, they're just using it again because it worked in BW. The fact it went totally unchecked and they held a monopoly in BW gives them the impression they can do it again. Stick to what you know and what (they think) works.
The sad thing is that even if it ISN'T a power play or control play (that we all think it is), but just pure misunderstanding, KeSPA should be aware that due to their past they have not earned the trust from people to pull out of that which they were expected to play in, the GSL and that every move of their's will be suspect.
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i was disappointed in both kespa and esf throwing mud at each other. But now i am only disappointed in esf. This childish acts must come to an end, or the korean sc2 scene might just end up worse than it is now.
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ESF does the right thing here
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On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing.
Who said that it was? The problem is that they want full cooperation from GOM and don't want to cooperate themselves, that's not fair to either GOM or the players. If kespa cared about the fans they wouldn't be trying to strong-arm their biggest competitor and would be working with them instead.
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On August 25 2012 19:37 TheAmazombie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. A lot of the Korean players worked for KeSPA at one time. There are quite a few BW pros in SC2 in Korea and they don't want it to get back to where KeSPA was making the decisions for them, telling them what to wear, when to take pictures, when to talk to fans, what tourneys they can play in. You have to think of it from the player perspective, they lived it before, and they think that the current state and growth would better be achieved through the unified deal that was forged earlier in the year. They aren't trying to destroy or push KeSPA out, they are not saying that KeSPA needs to stay away, but based on the past dealing with the group, KeSPA wants to control EVERYTHING having to due with ESports in Korea and most of the players, teams, and fans agree that this new model (more international support, more global coverage, various Korean leagues) is a better model than the "KeSPA decides who will play and when in what tourney" model. They feel that the recent moves by KeSPA was against their "Esports Vision" and a power-play attempt to take the scene back over. No one wants that. I don't think that KeSPA wants to ruin ESports, but that they are built on an antiquated system of control that the players (Yes, KeSPA players as well) feel is outdated and denies the global reach of SC2. + Show Spoiler +
Which players have come out saying that they didn't like playing on their old teams? Please link me the interviews because I want to read them. As far as I know not even idra has complained about being a kespa player.
On August 25 2012 19:38 viasacra89 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. So apparently everyones claim is baseless, but somehow yours are full of support. You have yet to refute a point against Kespa. All you have done is to "say no" to our points, while flaunting your opinions as fact. We are not attacking the leagues, teams, or players. We are attacking Kespa's iron grip on everything they see.
Refute what points? All you're saying is that they're going to take over and ruin SC2. How about you explain why having an organization with several major sponsors and a tv network supporting the game is supposed to be a bad thing?
On August 25 2012 19:38 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. even more baseless counter claims of kespa being a benevolent overlord oh wait many years of brood war taught us different
Taught us what exactly? That they could turn an obscure video game playing on a cartoon channel into a major event with thousands of fans lasting over a decade? God forbid they do the same to SC2.
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On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
Just gonna repost my statement here :
All i care about is the quality of the games as a viewer. I don't give two shits whenever it is at OSL, GSL , PL or a foreign tournament or what the players want . I don't want players participaing in 31231221312131 different tournaments all the time playing mediocre games all the time . I liked the quality of games Kespa produced in BW , and it took their players 3 months to get to the level of top GSL players in 2 years .
Progamer is a serious job in Kespa . They get paid for working - practising the game , not just flying around showing off your sponsors all the time like EG for example . Yes thats work as well although a different one that i don't care about . If Kespa deemed it to intensive for players to go in to other tournaments , harming the quaility of their players's games , they have every right to pull out from that league . Also Proleague is their home league it's where their sponsors are getting their advertisement and it's what the Kespa players are geting paid for , they practise for OSL and other tournaments in their free time or if the team lets them .
They pulled out of MLG for the same reason Proleague playoffs > GSL and MLG . Since they are working together with OGN to broadcast Proleague , they'll of course participate in the OSL as well . I think people here still don't get it that Kespa progamers are being paid to perform in PL and OSL to some extent where their sponsors are advertised through OGN a korean TV channel ( most of the sponsors are local korean companies) .
I don't mind players eliminated from PL playing in GSL if the teams don't have other plans . Some of the teams do help each other with practise even if they are eliminated it . Samsung helped STX in the past all of the players from Samsung moved to the STX house to help them practise for the playoffs . Other teams might choose to go on vacation since PL is either a year long or half an year long where progamers practise 12 hours a day or something .
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On August 25 2012 19:18 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:01 jinorazi wrote:
so if gom extends the qualifiers for gsl 4, kespa is down. only going by what has been said officially, kespa can join gsl 4 if scheduling can be altered (once more?) since their original excuse was scheduling conflict.
i'm not sure why kespa is complicating things by trying to speak for everyone...just let the team decide who can compete based on their availability and willingness/readiness. None of this has anything to do with scheduling.
as i've said, going by official statements. there's no need for me to hop on "kespa wants to kill gom" bandwagon, there's plenty of people already on it.
lets do keep one thing in mind. the difference between mlg and gsl. gsl players prepare hard for their match up as they know who they're going up against and mlg is the opposite since its a short tournament. kespa's model isn't about players playing matches two three times a week in multiple tournaments, bw players prepare for all their matches long in advance. having to play multiple games in one week with different opponents gets rid of this preparation.
again, i'm just trying to stick with whats being said officially regardless of how plausible and likely their hidden motives may be because there's plenty of people already talking about that.
no need for me to support any side but just try to see a way to solve this issue for both party's benefit, and result in overall better scene.
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On August 25 2012 20:03 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. Who said that it was? The problem is that they want full cooperation from GOM and don't want to cooperate themselves, that's not fair to either GOM or the players. If kespa cared about the fans they wouldn't be trying to strong-arm their biggest competitor and would be working with them instead.
And yeah, if this really is somehow a huge misunderstanding and they really were just doing this innocently, then they're at fault for being incredibly ignorant of their terrible reputation amongst the community and players =/ Which would be a shame.
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ESF should have KeSPA sign some sort of contract where they have to allow their players to participate in GSL every season if their players want to. And if they breach this contract, they have to pay a huge amount of money to ESF. Blizzard should back ESF as well, this will force KeSPA into a corner.
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On August 25 2012 20:06 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. Just gonna repost my statement here : All i care about is the quality of the games as a viewer. I don't give two shits whenever it is at OSL, GSL , PL or a foreign tournament or what the players want . I don't want players participaing in 31231221312131 different tournaments all the time playing mediocre games all the time . I liked the quality of games Kespa produced in BW , and it took their players 3 months to get to the level of top GSL players in 2 years .
This is fanboy drivel and you know it. SC2 has been changed alot over those two years (especially maps), many BW pros have played more than three months, and the BW players had a ton of SC2 replays and videos to learn from to get to the level they are at now.
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On August 25 2012 19:55 TheAmazombie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:53 Battle toad wrote:
I know very little about StarCraft 2 other than 5-games a day and my Day(9) dailies (compared to most), However i am a business investor that works within the Energy Sector.
I feel that preventing market saturation within an industry that is currently still in its infancy actually hinders a process of globalisation, which is what both the "consumers" and businesses (more so) really need to be incentivised to want to be in involved with competitive gaming.
While I understand there may be a conflict of interest from Kespas perspective I think the decision to limit exposure to what is currently a very niche marketplace is actually extremely short sighted and detrimental to the industry as a whole, in the long-term.(Even more so considering the dependence on sponsorships).
Apart from conveying an extremely negative image to a very informed consumer base, which Kespa will struggle to recover from. It means they are limiting awareness for a product that has yet to be fully globalised, which is … well its stupid.
As a simple Analogy: I could never trade energy with a business that had been un-touched by my competition, there would be no infrastructure, or desire for power, because everything runs on gas.
Selling competitive gaming would be a lot easier if they approached an already aware consumer base.
They should simply rely on having a superior product.
Exactly. I think that their system of control is antiquated and that they don't truly understand the state of global SC2, nor do they understand the players and fans.
You missed the fact that most of the KeSPA sponsers do not care about the global scene. What benefits do a Korean telecom company/bank want from US anyways? The only one that remotely have interest in it would probably be Samsung.
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What about a signed agreement to participate in GSL starting from S5 as an inmediate solution? Kespa teams still have not made a full transition (4 of them have to play BW for at least one more month) so the decision to not participate in S4 can be justified to some extent.
ESF players not participating in OSL is also a huge blow for them, all parties would end up losing if the first SC2 OSL goes to shit. Both sides need to accept some sacrifices or this whole mess could escalate and totally shatter the korean scene 
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On August 25 2012 20:03 BrosephBrostar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:37 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. A lot of the Korean players worked for KeSPA at one time. There are quite a few BW pros in SC2 in Korea and they don't want it to get back to where KeSPA was making the decisions for them, telling them what to wear, when to take pictures, when to talk to fans, what tourneys they can play in. You have to think of it from the player perspective, they lived it before, and they think that the current state and growth would better be achieved through the unified deal that was forged earlier in the year. They aren't trying to destroy or push KeSPA out, they are not saying that KeSPA needs to stay away, but based on the past dealing with the group, KeSPA wants to control EVERYTHING having to due with ESports in Korea and most of the players, teams, and fans agree that this new model (more international support, more global coverage, various Korean leagues) is a better model than the "KeSPA decides who will play and when in what tourney" model. They feel that the recent moves by KeSPA was against their "Esports Vision" and a power-play attempt to take the scene back over. No one wants that. I don't think that KeSPA wants to ruin ESports, but that they are built on an antiquated system of control that the players (Yes, KeSPA players as well) feel is outdated and denies the global reach of SC2. + Show Spoiler + Which players have come out saying that they didn't like playing on their old teams? Please link me the interviews because I want to read them. As far as I know not even idra has complained about being a kespa player. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:38 viasacra89 wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. So apparently everyones claim is baseless, but somehow yours are full of support. You have yet to refute a point against Kespa. All you have done is to "say no" to our points, while flaunting your opinions as fact. We are not attacking the leagues, teams, or players. We are attacking Kespa's iron grip on everything they see. Refute what points? All you're saying is that they're going to take over and ruin SC2. How about you explain why having an organization with several major sponsors and a tv network supporting the game is supposed to be a bad thing? Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:38 Denzil wrote:On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote:
BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him... I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you. It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something. No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier. Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing. On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports." And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want. ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that. You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then. More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. even more baseless counter claims of kespa being a benevolent overlord oh wait many years of brood war taught us different Taught us what exactly? That they could turn an obscure video game playing on a cartoon channel into a major event with thousands of fans lasting over a decade? God forbid they do the same to SC2.
Idra (and other players) have stated on "Inside the Game" and other shows multiple times that KeSPA in SC2 is the last thing that they would want. I am sorry, I am not going to go through every single episode of ITG for you, but VODs are there for you to view when you feel up to it. Not only that, not a single non-KeSPA players has come out and said "Hell yeah, KeSPA, they were so great, we should totally work under them again!" There are articles of Stork (I think) talking about wanting to set up a players association to battle against KeSPA back in BW.
I am sorry that none of us can give you ABSOLUTE evidence to every claim that you are demanding, but they are all over TL, all over shows like SotG and ITG, all over Reddit, and anywhere else you wish to look to find more about the BW history. All you keep saying is that you want more and more evidence, but I am not Google for you and even if there was absolute fact written in front of you, it sounds like you will not be convinced by that any way.
I think that KeSPA in SC2 is overall a good thing, but that they need to learn that their system of control, control, control will not stand and ESF, GOM, Korean netizens, and global fans, for the most part, seem to agree.
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On August 25 2012 19:44 MCXD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:
Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports?
Because it favors them, financially. More money for them. History of BW is my evidence. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:
Isn't the objective to grow it?
In Korea only, and only if they have a monopoly and total control of the scene. History of BW is my evidence. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:
More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever. You're claims are equally baseless. Aside from making BW popular in terms of korea spectators and getting some sponsors, they've done basically nothing good for anyone and made things difficult for everyone. Even their own players and korean fanbase agree there.
you have no clue whatsoever, don't you`?!
you aren't able to even provide one source for any of your so called arguments.
that statement about what kespa did for bw, is just BY FAR the stupidest thing I've read in a while.
you don't even have a hint of an idea what kespa has done for e-sports in korea, as well as in general.
I suppose you have just read a couple of posts (well... judging from your postcount and your registration date, you might have spent 40hr weeks on tl.net since february) - of people who have no clue either - and made your opinion without having an actual clue about the situation of korean e-sports history.
I'm not saying what kespa does / the way they approach things is good. In my opinion they are all just working for their own good, and not for the development of e-sports.
The thing is you can't say kespa is evil and gom/esf is good. that's just stupid. there's a huge grey area.
the way to go is reform kespa and not destroy it!
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Damn eSF is being really stupid now. Pulling out of OSL in the first place was kind of questionable, their last statement is just bullshit. Can't help but wonder if they're actually scared of KeSPA players taking over their income (remember Puzzle directly saying he's thinking about retiring after his games vs CJ_herO?) and are trying to maintain a rift between the two organizations just to remain relevant. After all, there is absolutely no reason for GSL players to actually be wanting serious additional competition in both GSL and foreign tournaments, and KeSPA players already shown us that with right preparation, they can be a real threat to eSF players. I'm actually surprised people are missing that angle on this dispute.
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That's not the way to do business.
They should have done meeting&contracts way before this, right after the announcement of their collabo was made.
I cannot believe that they're doing b2b communication through press releases. All parties are to blame.
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On August 25 2012 20:15 Sethronu wrote:
Damn eSF is being really stupid now. Pulling out of OSL in the first place was kind of questionable, their last statement is just bullshit. Can't help but wonder if they're actually scared of KeSPA players taking over their income (remember Puzzle directly saying he's thinking about retiring after his games vs CJ_herO?) and are trying to maintain a rift between the two organizations just to remain relevant. After all, there is absolutely no reason for GSL players to actually be wanting serious additional competition in both GSL and foreign tournaments, and KeSPA players already shown us that with right preparation, they can be a real threat to eSF players. I'm actually surprised people are missing that angle on this dispute.
They are scared, but not of what you mentioned. If GOM dies, then KeSPA will probably force LG-IM to join them, and kill off/scatter the rest of the teams. It has nothing to do with how good the players on both sides are relative to each other.
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On August 25 2012 20:06 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:18 AndAgain wrote:On August 25 2012 19:01 jinorazi wrote:
so if gom extends the qualifiers for gsl 4, kespa is down. only going by what has been said officially, kespa can join gsl 4 if scheduling can be altered (once more?) since their original excuse was scheduling conflict.
i'm not sure why kespa is complicating things by trying to speak for everyone...just let the team decide who can compete based on their availability and willingness/readiness. None of this has anything to do with scheduling. as i've said, going by official statements. there's no need for me to hop on "kespa wants to kill gom" bandwagon, there's plenty of people already on it. lets do keep one thing in mind. the difference between mlg and gsl. gsl players prepare hard for their match up as they know who they're going up against and mlg is the opposite since its a short tournament. kespa's model isn't about players playing matches two three times a week in multiple tournaments, bw players prepare for all their matches long in advance. having to play multiple games in one week with different opponents gets rid of this preparation. again, i'm just trying to stick with whats being said officially regardless of how plausible and likely their hidden motives may be because there's plenty of people already talking about that. no need for me to support any side but just try to see a way to solve this issue for both party's benefit, and result in overall better scene.
Oh oohh another neutral party  I'm neutral like you, and it's nice to have someone like-minded, but you can't really deny that some of Kespa's actions have been kinda fishy.
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