On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote: BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him...
I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you.
It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something.
No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier.
Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing.
On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever.
A lot of the Korean players worked for KeSPA at one time. There are quite a few BW pros in SC2 in Korea and they don't want it to get back to where KeSPA was making the decisions for them, telling them what to wear, when to take pictures, when to talk to fans, what tourneys they can play in. You have to think of it from the player perspective, they lived it before, and they think that the current state and growth would better be achieved through the unified deal that was forged earlier in the year. They aren't trying to destroy or push KeSPA out, they are not saying that KeSPA needs to stay away, but based on the past dealing with the group, KeSPA wants to control EVERYTHING having to due with ESports in Korea and most of the players, teams, and fans agree that this new model (more international support, more global coverage, various Korean leagues) is a better model than the "KeSPA decides who will play and when in what tourney" model.
They feel that the recent moves by KeSPA was against their "Esports Vision" and a power-play attempt to take the scene back over. No one wants that. I don't think that KeSPA wants to ruin ESports, but that they are built on an antiquated system of control that the players (Yes, KeSPA players as well) feel is outdated and denies the global reach of SC2.
Which players have come out saying that they didn't like playing on their old teams? Please link me the interviews because I want to read them. As far as I know not even idra has complained about being a kespa player.
On August 25 2012 19:38 viasacra89 wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote: BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him...
I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you.
It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something.
No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier.
Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing.
On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever.
So apparently everyones claim is baseless, but somehow yours are full of support. You have yet to refute a point against Kespa. All you have done is to "say no" to our points, while flaunting your opinions as fact. We are not attacking the leagues, teams, or players. We are attacking Kespa's iron grip on everything they see.
Refute what points? All you're saying is that they're going to take over and ruin SC2. How about you explain why having an organization with several major sponsors and a tv network supporting the game is supposed to be a bad thing?
On August 25 2012 19:38 Denzil wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote: BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him...
I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you.
It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something.
No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier.
Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing.
On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever.
even more baseless counter claims of kespa being a benevolent overlord
oh wait many years of brood war taught us different
Taught us what exactly? That they could turn an obscure video game playing on a cartoon channel into a major event with thousands of fans lasting over a decade? God forbid they do the same to SC2.
Idra (and other players) have stated on "Inside the Game" and other shows multiple times that KeSPA in SC2 is the last thing that they would want. I am sorry, I am not going to go through every single episode of ITG for you, but VODs are there for you to view when you feel up to it. Not only that, not a single non-KeSPA players has come out and said "Hell yeah, KeSPA, they were so great, we should totally work under them again!" There are articles of Stork (I think) talking about wanting to set up a players association to battle against KeSPA back in BW.
I am sorry that none of us can give you ABSOLUTE evidence to every claim that you are demanding, but they are all over TL, all over shows like SotG and ITG, all over Reddit, and anywhere else you wish to look to find more about the BW history. All you keep saying is that you want more and more evidence, but I am not Google for you and even if there was absolute fact written in front of you, it sounds like you will not be convinced by that any way.
I think that KeSPA in SC2 is overall a good thing, but that they need to learn that their system of control, control, control will not stand and ESF, GOM, Korean netizens, and global fans, for the most part, seem to agree.
There is no evidence because it's 90% spin. BW fans talked down about kespa because of some stupid referee decisions and that free agency issue and then SC2 people who had no idea what good things kespa is responsible for blew it up into them being some kind of evil regime. Can you even explain what villainous things kespa will do if they do take over SC2?
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
Just gonna repost my statement here :
All i care about is the quality of the games as a viewer. I don't give two shits whenever it is at OSL, GSL , PL or a foreign tournament or what the players want . I don't want players participaing in 31231221312131 different tournaments all the time playing mediocre games all the time . I liked the quality of games Kespa produced in BW , and it took their players 3 months to get to the level of top GSL players in 2 years . ...
I hope you realized that the Kespa players that now are MAYBE on an even level as some of the GSL players only made it that fast because they had tons of replay and VOD material available and could catch up fast. The GSL players on the other hand had to think about the game and evolved the game to the point where it is now.
Beside that i do agree that players shouldn't play too many tournaments, but it SHOULD all be up to them. Players like Mvp probably could have played a lot more foreign tournaments for example, but he didn't. If the players think their schedule is too tight they don't have to play GSL, but as you could read in their WCS interviews they all were eager to play in the GSL.
On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote: BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him...
I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you.
It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something.
Addressing this specifically, it's a tit for tat situation, and one that means considerably more than any other issue in the eSports scene today. ESF decided to participate in the OS2L because they took it in good faith that KeSPA would be taking part in GSL S4. KeSPA says "nah" and ESF is like "ok, well then nah as well".
SC2 doesn't need KeSPA. I will admit fully that not getting them on board asap will slow the growth of eSports as a whole, but the difference between BW and SC2 is essentially that SC2 is already more popular in the foreign scene than BW ever was. GOM realizes this and looks internationally to increase it's exposure, OGN by nature really can't.
Essentially SC2 will live or die by it's own merits. If it is truly the eSport people want to succeed, it will succeed. KeSPA is no longer the big fish in the small pond, it's a medium sized fish with the potential to evolve lungs and legs and get out of that pond, but feels the pond is the best place for it to stay.
On August 25 2012 20:15 Sethronu wrote: Damn eSF is being really stupid now. Pulling out of OSL in the first place was kind of questionable, their last statement is just bullshit. Can't help but wonder if they're actually scared of KeSPA players taking over their income (remember Puzzle directly saying he's thinking about retiring after his games vs CJ_herO?) and are trying to maintain a rift between the two organizations just to remain relevant. After all, there is absolutely no reason for GSL players to actually be wanting serious additional competition in both GSL and foreign tournaments, and KeSPA players already shown us that with right preparation, they can be a real threat to eSF players. I'm actually surprised people are missing that angle on this dispute.
It's because that angle makes no sense. They withdrew from a tournament they probably would have placed well in (and earned money/fame from) to make a point. It's not like korea is swarming with tournaments and ways to earn money for the ESF now is there?
If they wanted to keep Kespa and ESF players separate there's better ways than to demand an equal distribution of ex BW/SC2 players between the GSL and OSL...
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
Just gonna repost my statement here :
All i care about is the quality of the games as a viewer. I don't give two shits whenever it is at OSL, GSL , PL or a foreign tournament or what the players want . I don't want players participaing in 31231221312131 different tournaments all the time playing mediocre games all the time . I liked the quality of games Kespa produced in BW , and it took their players 3 months to get to the level of top GSL players in 2 years .
This is fanboy drivel and you know it. SC2 has been changed alot over those two years (especially maps), many BW pros have played more than three months, and the BW players had a ton of SC2 replays and videos to learn from to get to the level they are at now.
Doesn't matter what excuse you make the fact is that they are competing even though they were playing BW as well . Maps change all the time , even in BW . It takes time for players to figure the best builds for each map . SC2 really isn't at perfect balance point yet either and with HOTS coming it doesn't really matter who has the slight edge of experience , but i don't see a skill difference between the two organizations from the sample of games i've seen .
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
Just gonna repost my statement here :
All i care about is the quality of the games as a viewer. I don't give two shits whenever it is at OSL, GSL , PL or a foreign tournament or what the players want . I don't want players participaing in 31231221312131 different tournaments all the time playing mediocre games all the time . I liked the quality of games Kespa produced in BW , and it took their players 3 months to get to the level of top GSL players in 2 years . ...
I hope you realized that the Kespa players that now are MAYBE on an even level as some of the GSL players only made it that fast because they had tons of replay and VOD material available and could catch up fast. The GSL players on the other hand had to think about the game and evolved the game to the point where it is now.
Beside that i do agree that players shouldn't play too many tournaments, but it SHOULD all be up to them. Players like Mvp probably could have played a lot more foreign tournaments for example, but he didn't. If the players think their schedule is too tight they don't have to play GSL, but as you could read in their WCS interviews they all were eager to play in the GSL.
Why should it all be up to the players? They are contracted professionals, unlike the vast majority of ESF players. Teams should have the final say in what tournaments their players will and will not participate.
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
Just gonna repost my statement here :
All i care about is the quality of the games as a viewer. I don't give two shits whenever it is at OSL, GSL , PL or a foreign tournament or what the players want . I don't want players participaing in 31231221312131 different tournaments all the time playing mediocre games all the time . I liked the quality of games Kespa produced in BW , and it took their players 3 months to get to the level of top GSL players in 2 years . ...
I hope you realized that the Kespa players that now are MAYBE on an even level as some of the GSL players only made it that fast because they had tons of replay and VOD material available and could catch up fast. The GSL players on the other hand had to think about the game and evolved the game to the point where it is now.
Beside that i do agree that players shouldn't play too many tournaments, but it SHOULD all be up to them. Players like Mvp probably could have played a lot more foreign tournaments for example, but he didn't. If the players think their schedule is too tight they don't have to play GSL, but as you could read in their WCS interviews they all were eager to play in the GSL.
Why should it all be up to the players? They are contracted professionals, unlike the vast majority of ESF players. Teams should have the final say in what tournaments their players will and will not participate.
Except KeSPA is not even teams, and they certainly do not act like one. ESF teams like ST and LG-IM have sponser obligations as well, but MvP certainly did not act like he has no idea what is going on when he was sent to IEM.
On August 25 2012 20:22 ne4aJIb wrote: By the way who is responsible for OSL liquipedia? I think crossing fnatic.Oz out was a mistake, since fnatic is not part of ESF.
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
Just gonna repost my statement here :
All i care about is the quality of the games as a viewer. I don't give two shits whenever it is at OSL, GSL , PL or a foreign tournament or what the players want . I don't want players participaing in 31231221312131 different tournaments all the time playing mediocre games all the time . I liked the quality of games Kespa produced in BW , and it took their players 3 months to get to the level of top GSL players in 2 years . ...
I hope you realized that the Kespa players that now are MAYBE on an even level as some of the GSL players only made it that fast because they had tons of replay and VOD material available and could catch up fast. The GSL players on the other hand had to think about the game and evolved the game to the point where it is now.
Beside that i do agree that players shouldn't play too many tournaments, but it SHOULD all be up to them. Players like Mvp probably could have played a lot more foreign tournaments for example, but he didn't. If the players think their schedule is too tight they don't have to play GSL, but as you could read in their WCS interviews they all were eager to play in the GSL.
Why should it all be up to the players? They are contracted professionals, unlike the vast majority of ESF players. Teams should have the final say in what tournaments their players will and will not participate.
Except KeSPA is not even teams, and they certainly do not act like one. ESF teams like ST and LG-IM have sponser obligations as well, but MvP certainly did not act like he has no idea what is going on when he was sent to IEM.
On August 25 2012 20:15 Sethronu wrote: Damn eSF is being really stupid now. Pulling out of OSL in the first place was kind of questionable, their last statement is just bullshit. Can't help but wonder if they're actually scared of KeSPA players taking over their income (remember Puzzle directly saying he's thinking about retiring after his games vs CJ_herO?) and are trying to maintain a rift between the two organizations just to remain relevant. After all, there is absolutely no reason for GSL players to actually be wanting serious additional competition in both GSL and foreign tournaments, and KeSPA players already shown us that with right preparation, they can be a real threat to eSF players. I'm actually surprised people are missing that angle on this dispute.
They are scared, but not of what you mentioned. If GOM dies, then KeSPA will probably force LG-IM to join them, and kill off/scatter the rest of the teams. It has nothing to do with how good the players on both sides are relative to each other.
Look at it this way though. IF KeSPA players remain weaker or at best on par with eSF players, GOM will maintain majority of their viewers regardless of whether KeSPA players are in GSL or not. Assuming they don't play in GSL - most of hardcore BW fans don't care about GSL anyway, and the people who watch GSL right now would have no real reason to stop watching GSL in favour of KeSPA games. If KeSPA players do join GSL, they aren't a serious threat to compete for the prizepools so eSF keep their 'cake' - and have a shot at OSL golds too. Only way GOM might lose viewers in that situation is if their production values / content pricing etc is worse than KeSPA's - but that's straight up business and it's up to the marketing teams to resolve, not some childish boycotts. eSF hasn't got much to lose (assuming KeSPA players don't surpass them).
IF KeSPA players become stronger than eSF players however, eSF guys are basically screwed regardless if KeSPA are in GSL or not. If KeSPA is in GSL and internationals and consistently beat eSF players, GOM gets extra viewers and is happy, but eSF teams have less chances to earn money from prizes - and they'd have an even harder time securing sponsorships for themselves. If KeSPA players are not in GSL (while being better than eSF players), GOM loses viewers which means it's harder for them to provide high prizepools and extra events - and again, eSF teams will have a harder time finding more sponsors.
Seems like for eSF teams (not GOM itself), is pretty logical to basically to fuck with KeSPA in every way possible and try to ruin their name and relationships with fans / other tournaments. They seem to be doing a pretty okay job at that so far; I find it really hard to believe that they are concerned about 'players rights' or what have you there. Their decisions over OSL are absolutely not fan-friendly in any way.
On August 25 2012 20:15 Sethronu wrote: Damn eSF is being really stupid now. Pulling out of OSL in the first place was kind of questionable, their last statement is just bullshit. Can't help but wonder if they're actually scared of KeSPA players taking over their income (remember Puzzle directly saying he's thinking about retiring after his games vs CJ_herO?) and are trying to maintain a rift between the two organizations just to remain relevant. After all, there is absolutely no reason for GSL players to actually be wanting serious additional competition in both GSL and foreign tournaments, and KeSPA players already shown us that with right preparation, they can be a real threat to eSF players. I'm actually surprised people are missing that angle on this dispute.
They are scared, but not of what you mentioned. If GOM dies, then KeSPA will probably force LG-IM to join them, and kill off/scatter the rest of the teams. It has nothing to do with how good the players on both sides are relative to each other.
Look at it this way though. IF KeSPA players remain weaker or at best on par with eSF players, GOM will maintain majority of their viewers regardless of whether KeSPA players are in GSL or not. Assuming they don't play in GSL - most of hardcore BW fans don't care about GSL anyway, and the people who watch GSL right now would have no real reason to stop watching GSL in favour of KeSPA games. If KeSPA players do join GSL, they aren't a serious threat to compete for the prizepools so eSF keep their 'cake' - and have a shot at OSL golds too. Only way GOM might lose viewers in that situation is if their production values / content pricing etc is worse than KeSPA's - but that's straight up business and it's up to the marketing teams to resolve, not some childish boycotts. eSF hasn't got much to lose (assuming KeSPA players don't surpass them).
IF KeSPA players become stronger than eSF players however, eSF guys are basically screwed regardless if KeSPA are in GSL or not. If KeSPA is in GSL and internationals and consistently beat eSF players, GOM gets extra viewers and is happy, but eSF teams have less chances to earn money from prizes - and they'd have an even harder time securing sponsorships for themselves. If KeSPA players are not in GSL (while being better than eSF players), GOM loses viewers which means it's harder for them to provide high prizepools and extra events - and again, eSF teams will have a harder time finding more sponsors.
Seems like for eSF teams (not GOM itself), is pretty logical to basically to fuck with KeSPA in every way possible and try to ruin their name and relationships with fans / other tournaments. They seem to be doing a pretty okay job at that so far; I find it really hard to believe that they are concerned about 'players rights' or what have you there. Their decisions over OSL are absolutely not fan-friendly in any way.
That is not true. If GSL players are on par but not significantly better than KeSPA players, GOM will lose a lot of viewership since OSL will have players from both sides.
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
Just gonna repost my statement here :
All i care about is the quality of the games as a viewer. I don't give two shits whenever it is at OSL, GSL , PL or a foreign tournament or what the players want . I don't want players participaing in 31231221312131 different tournaments all the time playing mediocre games all the time . I liked the quality of games Kespa produced in BW , and it took their players 3 months to get to the level of top GSL players in 2 years . ...
I hope you realized that the Kespa players that now are MAYBE on an even level as some of the GSL players only made it that fast because they had tons of replay and VOD material available and could catch up fast. The GSL players on the other hand had to think about the game and evolved the game to the point where it is now.
Beside that i do agree that players shouldn't play too many tournaments, but it SHOULD all be up to them. Players like Mvp probably could have played a lot more foreign tournaments for example, but he didn't. If the players think their schedule is too tight they don't have to play GSL, but as you could read in their WCS interviews they all were eager to play in the GSL.
Why should it all be up to the players? They are contracted professionals, unlike the vast majority of ESF players. Teams should have the final say in what tournaments their players will and will not participate.
On August 25 2012 20:15 Sethronu wrote: Damn eSF is being really stupid now. Pulling out of OSL in the first place was kind of questionable, their last statement is just bullshit. Can't help but wonder if they're actually scared of KeSPA players taking over their income (remember Puzzle directly saying he's thinking about retiring after his games vs CJ_herO?) and are trying to maintain a rift between the two organizations just to remain relevant. After all, there is absolutely no reason for GSL players to actually be wanting serious additional competition in both GSL and foreign tournaments, and KeSPA players already shown us that with right preparation, they can be a real threat to eSF players. I'm actually surprised people are missing that angle on this dispute.
They are scared, but not of what you mentioned. If GOM dies, then KeSPA will probably force LG-IM to join them, and kill off/scatter the rest of the teams. It has nothing to do with how good the players on both sides are relative to each other.
Look at it this way though. IF KeSPA players remain weaker or at best on par with eSF players, GOM will maintain majority of their viewers regardless of whether KeSPA players are in GSL or not. Assuming they don't play in GSL - most of hardcore BW fans don't care about GSL anyway, and the people who watch GSL right now would have no real reason to stop watching GSL in favour of KeSPA games. If KeSPA players do join GSL, they aren't a serious threat to compete for the prizepools so eSF keep their 'cake' - and have a shot at OSL golds too. Only way GOM might lose viewers in that situation is if their production values / content pricing etc is worse than KeSPA's - but that's straight up business and it's up to the marketing teams to resolve, not some childish boycotts. eSF hasn't got much to lose (assuming KeSPA players don't surpass them).
IF KeSPA players become stronger than eSF players however, eSF guys are basically screwed regardless if KeSPA are in GSL or not. If KeSPA is in GSL and internationals and consistently beat eSF players, GOM gets extra viewers and is happy, but eSF teams have less chances to earn money from prizes - and they'd have an even harder time securing sponsorships for themselves. If KeSPA players are not in GSL (while being better than eSF players), GOM loses viewers which means it's harder for them to provide high prizepools and extra events - and again, eSF teams will have a harder time finding more sponsors.
Seems like for eSF teams (not GOM itself), is pretty logical to basically to fuck with KeSPA in every way possible and try to ruin their name and relationships with fans / other tournaments. They seem to be doing a pretty okay job at that so far; I find it really hard to believe that they are concerned about 'players rights' or what have you there. Their decisions over OSL are absolutely not fan-friendly in any way.
That is not true. If GSL players are on par but not significantly better than KeSPA players, GOM will lose a lot of viewership since OSL will have players from both sides.
Maybe I didn't make that clear enough, but I'm assuming that if KeSPA does not play in GSLs ever ever, then eSF wouldn't be playing in OSLs ever ever - so OSL wouldn't have players from both sides, making the 'losing viewership' a pretty big stretch.
On August 25 2012 20:15 Sethronu wrote: Damn eSF is being really stupid now. Pulling out of OSL in the first place was kind of questionable, their last statement is just bullshit. Can't help but wonder if they're actually scared of KeSPA players taking over their income (remember Puzzle directly saying he's thinking about retiring after his games vs CJ_herO?) and are trying to maintain a rift between the two organizations just to remain relevant. After all, there is absolutely no reason for GSL players to actually be wanting serious additional competition in both GSL and foreign tournaments, and KeSPA players already shown us that with right preparation, they can be a real threat to eSF players. I'm actually surprised people are missing that angle on this dispute.
They are scared, but not of what you mentioned. If GOM dies, then KeSPA will probably force LG-IM to join them, and kill off/scatter the rest of the teams. It has nothing to do with how good the players on both sides are relative to each other.
Look at it this way though. IF KeSPA players remain weaker or at best on par with eSF players, GOM will maintain majority of their viewers regardless of whether KeSPA players are in GSL or not. Assuming they don't play in GSL - most of hardcore BW fans don't care about GSL anyway, and the people who watch GSL right now would have no real reason to stop watching GSL in favour of KeSPA games. If KeSPA players do join GSL, they aren't a serious threat to compete for the prizepools so eSF keep their 'cake' - and have a shot at OSL golds too. Only way GOM might lose viewers in that situation is if their production values / content pricing etc is worse than KeSPA's - but that's straight up business and it's up to the marketing teams to resolve, not some childish boycotts. eSF hasn't got much to lose (assuming KeSPA players don't surpass them).
IF KeSPA players become stronger than eSF players however, eSF guys are basically screwed regardless if KeSPA are in GSL or not. If KeSPA is in GSL and internationals and consistently beat eSF players, GOM gets extra viewers and is happy, but eSF teams have less chances to earn money from prizes - and they'd have an even harder time securing sponsorships for themselves. If KeSPA players are not in GSL (while being better than eSF players), GOM loses viewers which means it's harder for them to provide high prizepools and extra events - and again, eSF teams will have a harder time finding more sponsors.
Seems like for eSF teams (not GOM itself), is pretty logical to basically to fuck with KeSPA in every way possible and try to ruin their name and relationships with fans / other tournaments. They seem to be doing a pretty okay job at that so far; I find it really hard to believe that they are concerned about 'players rights' or what have you there. Their decisions over OSL are absolutely not fan-friendly in any way.
That is not true. If GSL players are on par but not significantly better than KeSPA players, GOM will lose a lot of viewership since OSL will have players from both sides.
if kespa doesn't allow their players in gsl, why would esf players play in osl....isn't that the issue here?
what a mess. only fault i see is kespa trying to control the all of its teams rather than letting teams decide who can play and who cant. leave out kespa wants to kill gom talk for the sake of conversion because that wont lead us anywhere.
On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote: BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him...
I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you.
It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something.
KeSPA refuses to allow their players to go to other tournaments. This weakens other tournaments potential viewership as the BW fans won't watch their leagues.
KeSPA however does state that other leagues players are allowed to play in their tournament. This STRENGTHENS their league as non-BW fans will follow their favourite players in the KeSPA event.
As a result, KeSPA becomes a stronger player in SC2, and GOMTV becomes weaker.
History shows us that KeSPA is very insular and has never provided for, nor shown themselves to give a shit about, an international audience, a policy which had negative and far reaching effects on the international SC:BW scene.
The SC2 scene thus far has been very internationally friendly, and is growing rapidly.
If KeSPA manages to take GOMTV's korean audience away from them (Which their move was calculated to do), then KeSPA has the opportunity to become monopolistic within Korea for the SC2 scene.
If they have a monopoly on SC2 within korea, then we know from past experience that the international scene means nothing to them. The likely result will be a total lack of international interest, and thus international SC2 will once again be seperate from Korean SC2, which can only be a negative effect.
Competition between the leagues can only be a good thing. KeSPA re-establishing their BW monopoly can only be a good thing if we expect KeSPA to provide for an international audience in which they have previously had no interest.
I don't think anyone reasonable can expect KeSPA to provide the international audience with what they want. Probably quite the opposite, going on past form.
On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote: BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him...
I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you.
It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something.
No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier.
Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing.
On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever.
A lot of the Korean players worked for KeSPA at one time. There are quite a few BW pros in SC2 in Korea and they don't want it to get back to where KeSPA was making the decisions for them, telling them what to wear, when to take pictures, when to talk to fans, what tourneys they can play in. You have to think of it from the player perspective, they lived it before, and they think that the current state and growth would better be achieved through the unified deal that was forged earlier in the year. They aren't trying to destroy or push KeSPA out, they are not saying that KeSPA needs to stay away, but based on the past dealing with the group, KeSPA wants to control EVERYTHING having to due with ESports in Korea and most of the players, teams, and fans agree that this new model (more international support, more global coverage, various Korean leagues) is a better model than the "KeSPA decides who will play and when in what tourney" model.
They feel that the recent moves by KeSPA was against their "Esports Vision" and a power-play attempt to take the scene back over. No one wants that. I don't think that KeSPA wants to ruin ESports, but that they are built on an antiquated system of control that the players (Yes, KeSPA players as well) feel is outdated and denies the global reach of SC2.
Which players have come out saying that they didn't like playing on their old teams? Please link me the interviews because I want to read them. As far as I know not even idra has complained about being a kespa player.
On August 25 2012 19:38 viasacra89 wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote: BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him...
I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you.
It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something.
No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier.
Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing.
On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever.
So apparently everyones claim is baseless, but somehow yours are full of support. You have yet to refute a point against Kespa. All you have done is to "say no" to our points, while flaunting your opinions as fact. We are not attacking the leagues, teams, or players. We are attacking Kespa's iron grip on everything they see.
Refute what points? All you're saying is that they're going to take over and ruin SC2. How about you explain why having an organization with several major sponsors and a tv network supporting the game is supposed to be a bad thing?
On August 25 2012 19:38 Denzil wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:30 BrosephBrostar wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:18 TheAmazombie wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:13 BrosephBrostar wrote:
On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote: BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him...
I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you.
It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something.
No, no one is forgetting that, but we see the rebellion on ESF's part as necessary and they must as well. They believe this is the right step. I doubt any of the players and people in the ESF are just doing this to thumb their noses. They believe this is what they MUST do to maintain the state of Esports. Due to KeSPA's history, they feel that if they give in, then KeSPA will maintain a monopoly. They went into the OSL on faith in the "Esport Vision" deal that was made earlier in the year, not to mention that KeSPA has implied that they would allow their players to play once they got more practice, and by the state of WCG most people feel that their players should be ready enough to at least try out for the qualifier.
Necessary for what? Why would they want to maintain the state of esports? Isn't the objective to grow it? I'm still waiting for a real reason why kespa entering the SC2 scene is a bad thing.
On August 25 2012 19:23 Disengaged wrote:
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
More baseless claims that kespa is some kind of boogeyman trying to ruin SC2 forever.
even more baseless counter claims of kespa being a benevolent overlord
oh wait many years of brood war taught us different
Taught us what exactly? That they could turn an obscure video game playing on a cartoon channel into a major event with thousands of fans lasting over a decade? God forbid they do the same to SC2.
Idra (and other players) have stated on "Inside the Game" and other shows multiple times that KeSPA in SC2 is the last thing that they would want. I am sorry, I am not going to go through every single episode of ITG for you, but VODs are there for you to view when you feel up to it. Not only that, not a single non-KeSPA players has come out and said "Hell yeah, KeSPA, they were so great, we should totally work under them again!" There are articles of Stork (I think) talking about wanting to set up a players association to battle against KeSPA back in BW.
I am sorry that none of us can give you ABSOLUTE evidence to every claim that you are demanding, but they are all over TL, all over shows like SotG and ITG, all over Reddit, and anywhere else you wish to look to find more about the BW history. All you keep saying is that you want more and more evidence, but I am not Google for you and even if there was absolute fact written in front of you, it sounds like you will not be convinced by that any way.
I think that KeSPA in SC2 is overall a good thing, but that they need to learn that their system of control, control, control will not stand and ESF, GOM, Korean netizens, and global fans, for the most part, seem to agree.
There is no evidence because it's 90% spin. BW fans talked down about kespa because of some stupid referee decisions and that free agency issue and then SC2 people who had no idea what good things kespa is responsible for blew it up into them being some kind of evil regime. Can you even explain what villainous things kespa will do if they do take over SC2?
Gold bases return! Destructible rocks everywhere! Dogs and cats living together!
On August 25 2012 18:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: I'll say it again, there's absolutely no way a fan of SC2 should support the ESF here. What they're doing is absolutely retarded. If their goal really is to "carry Korean E-sports a step forward" isn't getting on TV pretty much the biggest step they can take right now? Am I really supposed to believe that the players are willing to pass up their chance at playing in a Starleage, something they've probably been dreaming of since they became progamers, for the "dignity" of some organization? Don't make me laugh. It's obvious that GOM has ESF on a leash and they're yanking the chain because they're afraid of becoming irrelevant. Anyone that supports this kind of bogus politics has no right to call himself a fan of "esports."
And you think Kespa is in the right? Hell no. Kespa is the WORSE possible thing that can happen to SC2, should they force their way in and having shit done their way, whenever they want.
ESF is in the right and there is no point in trying to dispute that.
You supoort Kespa? Your no fan of Esports then.
Just gonna repost my statement here :
All i care about is the quality of the games as a viewer. I don't give two shits whenever it is at OSL, GSL , PL or a foreign tournament or what the players want . I don't want players participaing in 31231221312131 different tournaments all the time playing mediocre games all the time . I liked the quality of games Kespa produced in BW , and it took their players 3 months to get to the level of top GSL players in 2 years . ...
I hope you realized that the Kespa players that now are MAYBE on an even level as some of the GSL players only made it that fast because they had tons of replay and VOD material available and could catch up fast. The GSL players on the other hand had to think about the game and evolved the game to the point where it is now.
Beside that i do agree that players shouldn't play too many tournaments, but it SHOULD all be up to them. Players like Mvp probably could have played a lot more foreign tournaments for example, but he didn't. If the players think their schedule is too tight they don't have to play GSL, but as you could read in their WCS interviews they all were eager to play in the GSL.
Why should it all be up to the players? They are contracted professionals, unlike the vast majority of ESF players. Teams should have the final say in what tournaments their players will and will not participate.
Except KeSPA is not even teams, and they certainly do not act like one. ESF teams like ST and LG-IM have sponser obligations as well, but MvP certainly did not act like he has no idea what is going on when he was sent to IEM.
Kespa are the teams . They own the teams as well as every coach and player in it , and they do things which is the best for their interest and they have their own plans and vision of developing e - sports in the future , that may differ from other organizations .
On August 25 2012 19:06 Zhalad wrote: BrosephBrostar is either delusional or a troll, probably best just to ignore him...
I've yet to see anything but baseless fearmongering from anyone supporting the ESF. Everyone is conveniently forgetting that they're pulling out after previously agreeing to play and going through the preliminaries, but I guess that's ok because kespa is evil and trying to take SC2 away from you.
It's like I'm listening to Al Sharpton or something.
Addressing this specifically, it's a tit for tat situation, and one that means considerably more than any other issue in the eSports scene today. ESF decided to participate in the OS2L because they took it in good faith that KeSPA would be taking part in GSL S4. KeSPA says "nah" and ESF is like "ok, well then nah as well".
SC2 doesn't need KeSPA. I will admit fully that not getting them on board asap will slow the growth of eSports as a whole, but the difference between BW and SC2 is essentially that SC2 is already more popular in the foreign scene than BW ever was. GOM realizes this and looks internationally to increase it's exposure, OGN by nature really can't.
Essentially SC2 will live or die by it's own merits. If it is truly the eSport people want to succeed, it will succeed. KeSPA is no longer the big fish in the small pond, it's a medium sized fish with the potential to evolve lungs and legs and get out of that pond, but feels the pond is the best place for it to stay.
Took the metaphor too far, but at least you had me laughing.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/raVou.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i45.tinypic.com/1dahg.png)
