EPT[D] The raven buff does not address TvZ issues - Page 9
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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
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Kaleidos
Italy172 Posts
I foresee a no fungal vs air in hots with the hydra buff and hydra support buff (ya that doesn't help the current game). Talkin' about PvT, even just as a spectator (yup i'm Z), i noticed how HT's Feedback shutdown any attempt for the terran to go T3 Air, since both BC's and Ravens suffer immensely vs feedback, which the protoss always have in play late game. Maybe we should have Storm and Feedback on 2 different units (new Archon)? I don't know and it is not my job to find a solution, but i believe there might be an issue here too. | ||
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Kaeru
Sweden552 Posts
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larse
1611 Posts
To address this problem, the following buffs are needed: 1. Durability material upgrade is removed. But its effects become default. 2. Raven energy research time reduced to 80, down from 110. (Infestor's energy research time is 80). The cost of the research reduced to 100/100, down from 150/150 3. Seeker missile research time reduced to 80, down from 110. The cost of the research reduced to 100/100, down from 150/150. | ||
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Beastyqt
Serbia516 Posts
You upgrade infestor energy thing, make them and they are ready to fungal. You need to upgrade 3 things for raven AND +1 range +armor for buildings (5 upgrades that cost way too much) and even after that you have to wait long time before actually using HSM. Even when you have energy to do it you get fungaled and cant get HSM off because its range is crap. Also why do ravens cost 100-200? HT is way more cost effective for its cost. | ||
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Qntc.YuMe
United States792 Posts
On August 19 2012 14:55 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: Raven/bc/viking is insanely good combo, I probably never lost with it if I managed to get to it..problem is you cant get it because both ravens and bc's cost way too much. You upgrade infestor energy thing, make them and they are ready to fungal. You need to upgrade 3 things for raven AND +1 range +armor for buildings (5 upgrades that cost way too much) and even after that you have to wait long time before actually using HSM. Even when you have energy to do it you get fungaled and cant get HSM off because its range is crap. Also why do ravens cost 100-200? HT is way more cost effective for its cost. Yea beasty is right. Its one of those "unbeatable" compos similar to how toss goes super sky toss mode against zerg... but more costly and time consuming. What has to be worked is a much easier way to transition into that without sacrificing everything into it. As for avilo's thing, mass raven in his eyes are like the ultimate terran late game all in cuz once those ravens are gone, you are pretty much screwed. Ravens need more safety (yes faster movement is a start but fungal chain can stop it). Either they should be slightly more cost effective or allow it to live easier | ||
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PauseBreak
United States270 Posts
I hope Blizzard reads this, and I hope that even the very dense Dustin Browder can put his pride aside for once and admit that this Raven buff is an incorrect decision to fix what they broke with the Queens. It comes down to Fungal. It is broken in its current state. What possibly changes could we offer? Maybe it should work more like Plague did. Not kill but just drain life. And the fact that Terran is so micro centric it completely negates the work and effort into micro. | ||
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TsGBruzze
Sweden1190 Posts
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sam05396
United States783 Posts
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Rossen
Denmark177 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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DougJDempsey
747 Posts
On August 19 2012 15:16 TsGBruzze wrote: I am a terran and i Would be sad if they buffed terran... Let The metagame change... no reasons, no justification, no actual arguments to offer. just "I am a terran and i Would be sad if they buffed terran... Let The metagame change..." why did you even post? contribute something useful please, or leave. | ||
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RockIronrod
Australia1369 Posts
On August 19 2012 15:24 DougJDempsey wrote: no reasons, no justification, no actual arguments to offer. just "I am a terran and i Would be sad if they buffed terran... Let The metagame change..." why did you even post? contribute something useful please, or leave. It's a pretty straightforward post, he thinks Terran is balanced, and that the problem is in the metagame and not any innate weakness of the race. | ||
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VictorJones
United States235 Posts
As for the raven change, I agree that the speed change is dumb. I don't think the raven should be stronger or more accessible than it is though. It gets exponentially stronger the more you have. If you are going to keep the ability set on the raven as it is, buffing it will make it the new infestor since it has applications against every unit in the game. If you want it to be more accessible it needs to be more of a niche unit. The creep reduction is a good idea. I for one don't think the queen buff was excessive in theory. In practice it turned out that terran can no longer pressure zerg in the early game without committing a LOT. So be it. It's still better than zerg not being able to take a 3rd until the terran already has 3OC and having to play every ZvT from behind economically. Ideally, zerg wouldn't the Infestor Broodlord combo be so unbeatable but that's life. You kind of have to approach TvZ lategame with the mindset of "I'm not going to engage that army, I'm going to circumvent it". Players who can do that effectively are the ones who are beating zerg. Btw, even though I humored you enough to write this post, I have to include the following obligatory response because it is you. Get better avilo, stop whining~ | ||
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
On August 19 2012 13:25 iaguz wrote: Vortix lost in TSL 4 recently to MVPKeen, he also lost to Supernova in that same fucking tourney 2-1 in group stages. Every game against supernova was really tense and could of gone either way. Stop fucking talking about Vortix. He's really fucking good but he's not the reason ZvT is imbalanced or anything and the fact we think he's capable of occasionally beating Korean terrans on occasion somehow means ZvT is imbalanced doesn't make it true at all. It's actually just shitting on a really really really fucking good zerg's achievement. If he wins imba, if he loses then all is well. Fucking atrocious. Ditto Nerchio too. As for the OP... 1) Raven's are... difficult to use and I wouldn't personally mind a buff to them but nothing huge. The speed buff doesn't seem particularly relevant towards anything but even so sometimes ravens work and sometimes they don't and the trick is to fully figure out why and how we can use ravens most effectively. I don't think this is a fully explored avenue of Terran theory. 2) Queen range is healthy for the matchup and reversing it would fuck the TvZ metagame in an unhealthy way. Keep queens as is, change a different part. I think reversing a change or just straight up nerfing/removing something as an option is a bad way to change starcraft. Players should be encouraged to try new shiny things to fix problems, not have their shiny new thing just taken away (admittedly some exceptions apply, particularly those concerning certain High Templar's neckwear...) 3) Fungal growth is a very severe spell but it is possible to play around it with vikings. If you spread your vikings out across multiple screen lengths (which KR terrans do quite a bit, I remember seeing Gumiho do it most recently against one of hte SlayerS zergs in GSTL finals) then they cannot be fungalled that efficiently. Yeah infestors are really good. Wouldn't mind a nerf tbh but it's probably not going to happen. Combined with PDD vikings can actually dominate the air war against corrupters and if Zerg don't have air control they have trouble keeping broodlords alive. Just how I see's it currently, a random NA GM's Terran. O.O please take down zergs of SEA  | ||
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etofok
138 Posts
What if Terrans (like me) start making builds that are designed to incorporate Ravens at the 14 minute mark insted? This is at a timing where Terran has 3 bases and very high mineral income... A lot of that income is actually dumped into Scans for killing tumors. Some Ravens might give you 2-3 more Barracks worth of Marine production. The problem is that there almost no mid-game in TvZ right now, and with "14 mins transition into raven" we will receive no-early, no mid and no late-game, only something like post-late game with micro battles between ravens cloud and Zerg army. I think, that is just ridiculous. | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
On August 19 2012 15:16 TsGBruzze wrote: I am a terran and i Would be sad if they buffed terran... Let The metagame change... That's a very shitty and trolly post but i'll bite and say... Stop living under your 2010-terran rock and go ladder for a few hours. Then come back and say what you just said again, spoiler alert, YOU WON'T. Terran is in an awful position atm not only in TvZ, but TvP too. Take your time to actually read Avilo's thread here and you'll understand. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 19 2012 15:35 etofok wrote: The problem is that there almost no mid-game in TvZ right now, and with "14 mins transition into raven" we will receive no-early, no mid and no late-game, only something like post-late game with micro battles between ravens cloud and Zerg army. I think, that is just ridiculous. Sry, but what other races call "Zerg midgame", has turned into "I win if I just turtle through his allin", as Terrans (and Protoss) simply figured out that you can turtle through anything that does not include a thousand Broodlords. | ||
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DougJDempsey
747 Posts
On August 19 2012 15:26 RockIronrod wrote: It's a pretty straightforward post, he thinks Terran is balanced, and that the problem is in the metagame and not any innate weakness of the race. [D] The raven buff does not address TvZ issues do you notice this? like i said, no reasons, no justification, no actual arguments to offer. if you want to be considered post something with actual content please. | ||
digmouse
China6331 Posts
On August 19 2012 14:47 Kaleidos wrote: I think Blizzard knows how much bad design it is fungal vs air units. They even tested a no air fungal long time ago, but in WoL looked it simply was too much. I foresee a no fungal vs air in hots with the hydra buff and hydra support buff (ya that doesn't help the current game). Talkin' about PvT, even just as a spectator (yup i'm Z), i noticed how HT's Feedback shutdown any attempt for the terran to go T3 Air, since both BC's and Ravens suffer immensely vs feedback, which the protoss always have in play late game. Maybe we should have Storm and Feedback on 2 different units (new Archon)? I don't know and it is not my job to find a solution, but i believe there might be an issue here too. Feedback was indeed on a different unit in BW, the  Dark Archon | ||
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Incomplet
United Kingdom1419 Posts
MVP vs Nestea - HSM into Nesteas Corrupter Broodlords. Nestea GG's MVP vs Slivko - HSM into Slivko's infestors. Slivko GG's How did he do it to avoid fungals on his ravens? He scanned in advance to see his exact opponents composition and location, spread out his ravens and approached in small groups from multiple angles. This is all without the speed increase, let alone when the patch comes through. Yes it did take him ages to build up his group of ravens and then the energy. But he turtled hard and continuesly multi prong dropped to buy heaps of time. | ||
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