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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 19 2012 15:53 Incomplet wrote:
IEM in the past few days.
MVP vs Nestea - HSM into Nesteas Corrupter Broodlords. Nestea GG's
MVP vs Slivko - HSM into Slivko's infestors. Slivko GG's
How did he do it to avoid fungals on his ravens? He scanned in advance to see his exact opponents composition and location, spread out his ravens and approached in small groups from multiple angles. This is all without the speed increase, let alone when the patch comes through.
Yes it did take him ages to build up his group of ravens and then the energy. But he turtled hard and continuesly multi prong dropped to buy heaps of time.
I think you forgot to mention that the map in both those games were METROPOLIS. A map where terran can actually turtle hard enough to get out ravens. And you also failed to mention that the slivko game you referenced, MVP still almost died to the ultra transition after the first broodlord attack. Honest mistake im sure
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On August 19 2012 15:53 Incomplet wrote:
IEM in the past few days.
MVP vs Nestea - HSM into Nesteas Corrupter Broodlords. Nestea GG's
MVP vs Slivko - HSM into Slivko's infestors. Slivko GG's
How did he do it to avoid fungals on his ravens? He scanned in advance to see his exact opponents composition and location, spread out his ravens and approached in small groups from multiple angles. This is all without the speed increase, let alone when the patch comes through.
Yes it did take him ages to build up his group of ravens and then the energy. But he turtled hard and continuesly multi prong dropped to buy heaps of time.
I think what most are complaining about is how difficult it is to transition into sky terran with the exception of a few maps that allow for that kind of play to happen.
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On August 19 2012 16:00 ritzia1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 15:53 Incomplet wrote:
IEM in the past few days.
MVP vs Nestea - HSM into Nesteas Corrupter Broodlords. Nestea GG's
MVP vs Slivko - HSM into Slivko's infestors. Slivko GG's
How did he do it to avoid fungals on his ravens? He scanned in advance to see his exact opponents composition and location, spread out his ravens and approached in small groups from multiple angles. This is all without the speed increase, let alone when the patch comes through.
Yes it did take him ages to build up his group of ravens and then the energy. But he turtled hard and continuesly multi prong dropped to buy heaps of time. I think what most are complaining about is how difficult it is to transition into sky terran with the exception of a few maps that allow for that kind of play to happen.
I'd rather say it's the other way around. Skyterran transition is nearly fine and people get better and better with it. Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor transition is too early, though without any other artillery (or at least long ranged unit) earlier, it's a tough thing to get to the sweet spot.
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China6331 Posts
On August 19 2012 15:53 Incomplet wrote:
IEM in the past few days.
MVP vs Nestea - HSM into Nesteas Corrupter Broodlords. Nestea GG's
MVP vs Slivko - HSM into Slivko's infestors. Slivko GG's
How did he do it to avoid fungals on his ravens? He scanned in advance to see his exact opponents composition and location, spread out his ravens and approached in small groups from multiple angles. This is all without the speed increase, let alone when the patch comes through.
Yes it did take him ages to build up his group of ravens and then the energy. But he turtled hard and continuesly multi prong dropped to buy heaps of time.
Also, it is on Metropolis, the map that is easiest to get into split map turtle situation.
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I really think they just need to make toss and zerg harder somehow... Like with terrans there is a larger skill gap than between the other ones because they kept all the micro and interesting combinations of units that work but they patched out all the stupid stuff like mule on gold bases and 100% return on bunkers. Now maybe we should look at reverting some off the zerg and protoss buffs from the last patches or introduce something else. I honestly feel a little bad for terran sometimes on ladder (though not when they bully you with marauders ugh)
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On August 19 2012 15:53 Incomplet wrote:
IEM in the past few days.
MVP vs Nestea - HSM into Nesteas Corrupter Broodlords. Nestea GG's
MVP vs Slivko - HSM into Slivko's infestors. Slivko GG's
How did he do it to avoid fungals on his ravens? He scanned in advance to see his exact opponents composition and location, spread out his ravens and approached in small groups from multiple angles. This is all without the speed increase, let alone when the patch comes through.
Yes it did take him ages to build up his group of ravens and then the energy. But he turtled hard and continuesly multi prong dropped to buy heaps of time.
I think this bolded part is important.
If the two players are "even skill" I would say chances favour the engagement goings in Zergs favour however. With the speed change, I do think it will help to even such an engagement, although I personally would like to see changes that affect the early game/mid game as Zerg has become much like Protoss in TvP since the queen range buff. I say that in regards to the fact that many Terrans feel like they have to kill or cripple the Protoss to go into the late game with a fair chance.
By all means I feel a buff of Ravens would be nice (as a Terran player  ), but to me if feels like it wouldn't be necessary if Terran wasn't already behind from the safety and economy the queens provide in the early and mid game. Perhaps the creep changes combined with the Raven change will even things up together. I'm hoping so, but if not, I think taking away the Raven buff and either increasing Raven start energy/HSM cost/upgrade length/Raven build time, etc, or changing the queen range to 4 would be a nice start.
edit: I guess some other people got to this first. But yeah, the transition time needed for this with regards to Terrans position that he was put in from the mid game is the problem it would seem.
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From a pure game design stand point, it makes much more sense to me to have air-units be slowed by fungal and not rooted, since whatever "fungal" actually is doesn't stick a flying creature/machine to the ground simply because its not standing on the ground. It does however get into the engines/stick to the muscles of flying units hence they should be slowed (crashing would be unfair ).
Secondly why the hell can you stack infinity air-units on top of each other? Just give them the same collision-detection as ground units.
I'm not a pro-player, I'm not even an active player at all but I do enjoy watching the game and I have an analytic personality so don't take this as balance-arguments, but in my mind that solves the "fungal problem". I know this completely changes how air-play would work but does it seem reasonable?
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On August 19 2012 16:08 leveller wrote:
I really think they just need to make toss and zerg harder somehow... Like with terrans there is a larger skill gap than between the other ones because they kept all the micro and interesting combinations of units that work but they patched out all the stupid stuff like mule on gold bases and 100% return on bunkers. Now maybe we should look at reverting some off the zerg and protoss buffs from the last patches or introduce something else. I honestly feel a little bad for terran sometimes on ladder (though not when they bully you with marauders ugh)
I feel like 2 things need to happen:
Terran needs to be buffed OR zerg and protoss nerfed
AND
Skill ceiling for zerg and protoss need to be higher (however you interpret this, whether it be high multitasking/micro like terran, or in their own unique ways). For terran, there is a lot of reward if you're skilled. And so recently, we've been seeing the game balanced around that, so that lower level players poorly (as seen in that ladder thread showing the MMR offset that exists for racial imbalances)
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On August 19 2012 16:11 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 16:08 leveller wrote:
I really think they just need to make toss and zerg harder somehow... Like with terrans there is a larger skill gap than between the other ones because they kept all the micro and interesting combinations of units that work but they patched out all the stupid stuff like mule on gold bases and 100% return on bunkers. Now maybe we should look at reverting some off the zerg and protoss buffs from the last patches or introduce something else. I honestly feel a little bad for terran sometimes on ladder (though not when they bully you with marauders ugh) I feel like 2 things need to happen: Terran needs to be buffed OR zerg and protoss nerfed AND Skill ceiling for zerg and protoss need to be higher (however you interpret this, whether it be high multitasking/micro like terran, or in their own unique ways). For terran, there is a lot of reward if you're skilled. And so recently, we've been seeing the game balanced around that, so that lower level players poorly (as seen in that ladder thread showing the MMR offset that exists for racial imbalances)
While terran might need to split/kite during fight...or how you put it micro more, although not 100% true...the other races already got other things...you can just let your energy go to max and then throw 4 mules...everything will be fine...well zerg can't inject on full energy and everything be fine...the same goes for chronoboost(although to a lesser extent), zerg also has to creep spread and during fight even if you consider it A move for zerg they do have to keep their infestors alive cast fungal and surround your units as much as possible...while the protosses have to forcefield, keep their colosi back from vikings, blink the stalkers...make sure their zealots aren't stuck in the back....while as terran you just stim/siege and split...I do think that all of them take equal fight micro while the other races even take more than terran for macro...just my 2 cents.
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On August 19 2012 16:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 16:00 ritzia1 wrote:On August 19 2012 15:53 Incomplet wrote:
IEM in the past few days.
MVP vs Nestea - HSM into Nesteas Corrupter Broodlords. Nestea GG's
MVP vs Slivko - HSM into Slivko's infestors. Slivko GG's
How did he do it to avoid fungals on his ravens? He scanned in advance to see his exact opponents composition and location, spread out his ravens and approached in small groups from multiple angles. This is all without the speed increase, let alone when the patch comes through.
Yes it did take him ages to build up his group of ravens and then the energy. But he turtled hard and continuesly multi prong dropped to buy heaps of time. I think what most are complaining about is how difficult it is to transition into sky terran with the exception of a few maps that allow for that kind of play to happen. I'd rather say it's the other way around. Skyterran transition is nearly fine and people get better and better with it. Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor transition is too early, though without any other artillery (or at least long ranged unit) earlier, it's a tough thing to get to the sweet spot.
And the BL/infestor/corrupter transition can come so early is that in the early game, queens are much better defensively so Zerg can drone up and expand slightly quicker which leads to fast infestors which shuts down Terran early mid game. Then Terran has to wait for the pre BL push. But with the creep so far, that push can be cleaned up by ling bling infestor if Terran steps on creep. Zergs are getting hive tech earlier and earlier because of this.
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On August 19 2012 15:53 Incomplet wrote:
IEM in the past few days.
MVP vs Nestea - HSM into Nesteas Corrupter Broodlords. Nestea GG's
MVP vs Slivko - HSM into Slivko's infestors. Slivko GG's
How did he do it to avoid fungals on his ravens? He scanned in advance to see his exact opponents composition and location, spread out his ravens and approached in small groups from multiple angles. This is all without the speed increase, let alone when the patch comes through.
Yes it did take him ages to build up his group of ravens and then the energy. But he turtled hard and continuesly multi prong dropped to buy heaps of time.
MVP vs Nestea and MVP vs Slivko are games where MVP is a huge favorite(mvp is 14-5 vs nestead in KR tlpd).
The really really impressive raven games were Kas vs Nestea.
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On August 19 2012 16:18 Darkthorn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 16:11 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On August 19 2012 16:08 leveller wrote:
I really think they just need to make toss and zerg harder somehow... Like with terrans there is a larger skill gap than between the other ones because they kept all the micro and interesting combinations of units that work but they patched out all the stupid stuff like mule on gold bases and 100% return on bunkers. Now maybe we should look at reverting some off the zerg and protoss buffs from the last patches or introduce something else. I honestly feel a little bad for terran sometimes on ladder (though not when they bully you with marauders ugh) I feel like 2 things need to happen: Terran needs to be buffed OR zerg and protoss nerfed AND Skill ceiling for zerg and protoss need to be higher (however you interpret this, whether it be high multitasking/micro like terran, or in their own unique ways). For terran, there is a lot of reward if you're skilled. And so recently, we've been seeing the game balanced around that, so that lower level players poorly (as seen in that ladder thread showing the MMR offset that exists for racial imbalances) While terran might need to split/kite during fight...or how you put it micro more, although not 100% true...the other races already got other things...you can just let your energy go to max and then throw 4 mules...everything will be fine...well zerg can't inject on full energy and everything be fine...the same goes for chronoboost(although to a lesser extent), zerg also has to creep spread and during fight even if you consider it A move for zerg they do have to keep their infestors alive cast fungal and surround your units as much as possible...while the protosses have to forcefield, keep their colosi back from vikings, blink the stalkers...make sure their zealots aren't stuck in the back....while as terran you just stim/siege and split...I do think that all of them take equal fight micro while the other races even take more than terran for macro...just my 2 cents.
at a even remotely close to high level setting no one is gonna leave 4 mules undropped unless they need scan. your argument would only apply to the lower levels and a lesser extent to zerg because thats the only race who can make 20 workers at the same time. "equal fight micro"...... right. "just stim/siege and split"(not even mentioning tank focus fire and the fact that you are splitting roughly 50 marines) is easier than bunching everything on one control group(you can see this clearly in idra vs taeja in ASUS ROG recently and just yesterday in vortix vs supernova on multiple games.) and pressing F. im not saying zerg is completely broken, but do not pretend that it isn't easier for the zerg than the terran..
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On August 19 2012 15:53 Incomplet wrote:
IEM in the past few days.
MVP vs Nestea - HSM into Nesteas Corrupter Broodlords. Nestea GG's
MVP vs Slivko - HSM into Slivko's infestors. Slivko GG's
How did he do it to avoid fungals on his ravens? He scanned in advance to see his exact opponents composition and location, spread out his ravens and approached in small groups from multiple angles. This is all without the speed increase, let alone when the patch comes through.
Yes it did take him ages to build up his group of ravens and then the energy. But he turtled hard and continuesly multi prong dropped to buy heaps of time.
Good thing we all have the abilities of the 4time GSL champ.
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Well its only a buff in the sense that it now moves as fast as a medivac. The only situation I can possibly think of where this would be useful is if you want to drop something in the Zergs base but have PDD coverage in case there's queens and spores. In any other circumstance it doesn't really become a factor.
So yeah, the raven buff won't affect terran lategame much. But I reckon that the creep range nerf will help out a lot more for terran ( creep spreads slower, more tumours are visible in a scan ect ).
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On August 19 2012 15:53 Incomplet wrote:
IEM in the past few days.
MVP vs Nestea - HSM into Nesteas Corrupter Broodlords. Nestea GG's
MVP vs Slivko - HSM into Slivko's infestors. Slivko GG's
How did he do it to avoid fungals on his ravens? He scanned in advance to see his exact opponents composition and location, spread out his ravens and approached in small groups from multiple angles. This is all without the speed increase, let alone when the patch comes through.
Yes it did take him ages to build up his group of ravens and then the energy. But he turtled hard and continuesly multi prong dropped to buy heaps of time.
Do you know how many times has that strategy failed to work?
Because it's pretty important to understand whether your discussing examples proving the rule or just an exception to it.
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As a plat terran I can't do anything to harass zerg while they are getting their lair tech up by just defending with queens and lings and spines. Sometimes zergs with just attack me with lings because I'm focusing too much on harass which is doing no damage and I just get attacked by lings and I have nothing back at my base to defend because my macro isn't perfect. Zerg is a joke I sometimes get fake baneling busted they make like 60+ lings I scout it with a reaper or scan I make mass bunkers they go back into macro mode because I can't move out with my ground army due to their mass lings by my watch tower. I can't drop because they'll see it before it happens with their 6+queens and mass creep spread. I try to turtle up they go for super fast brood lords, what am I meant to do? If zergs ability to be literally untouched before their lair tech, I'm just gonna stop playing the game, it's just not fun.
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On August 19 2012 14:55 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
Raven/bc/viking is insanely good combo, I probably never lost with it if I managed to get to it..problem is you cant get it because both ravens and bc's cost way too much.
You upgrade infestor energy thing, make them and they are ready to fungal. You need to upgrade 3 things for raven AND +1 range +armor for buildings (5 upgrades that cost way too much) and even after that you have to wait long time before actually using HSM. Even when you have energy to do it you get fungaled and cant get HSM off because its range is crap.
Also why do ravens cost 100-200? HT is way more cost effective for its cost.
Agree with the upgrade costs being too high, but comparison v. HT is silly. Air units are more expensive than ground units for obvious reasons. (Imagine flying marines w/ stim, flying stalkers w/ blink, or flying banelings) If HTs could fly around @2.25 speed I am pretty certain that they would cost A LOT more.
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On August 19 2012 16:33 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 15:53 Incomplet wrote:
IEM in the past few days.
MVP vs Nestea - HSM into Nesteas Corrupter Broodlords. Nestea GG's
MVP vs Slivko - HSM into Slivko's infestors. Slivko GG's
How did he do it to avoid fungals on his ravens? He scanned in advance to see his exact opponents composition and location, spread out his ravens and approached in small groups from multiple angles. This is all without the speed increase, let alone when the patch comes through.
Yes it did take him ages to build up his group of ravens and then the energy. But he turtled hard and continuesly multi prong dropped to buy heaps of time. Do you know how many times has that strategy failed to work? Because it's pretty important to understand whether your discussing examples proving the rule or just an exception to it.
I'm sure mvp wouldn't be doing it in a tournament vs someone of nesteas caliber if he knew it didn't have a high success rate.
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I think removing the stun on the fungal growth would do great good to this game on so many different levels. It's simply a dumb game mechanic. You have one race that relies heavily on unit control and micro and the other races have ways of shutting that down easily.
If blizz was to keep the queen range buff they might need to nerf inject by one larva to make up for it.
As it is now whever you try to push zerg around 10min to keep him on his toes he'll have a creephighway making that attack take ages. Queens defend it easily and stall so much time that he can drope up to 70drones, deal with your attack and simply roll you over later on.
Besides some game design/balance issues I find the biggest problem to be the difference of skill required to play the different races.
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On August 19 2012 15:53 Incomplet wrote:
IEM in the past few days.
MVP vs Nestea - HSM into Nesteas Corrupter Broodlords. Nestea GG's
MVP vs Slivko - HSM into Slivko's infestors. Slivko GG's
How did he do it to avoid fungals on his ravens? He scanned in advance to see his exact opponents composition and location, spread out his ravens and approached in small groups from multiple angles. This is all without the speed increase, let alone when the patch comes through.
Yes it did take him ages to build up his group of ravens and then the energy. But he turtled hard and continuesly multi prong dropped to buy heaps of time.
actually, slivko wasted all his infestor energy on infested terrans and neural parasite trying to be cute and build a cc with a scv. Nestea didnt even see the ravens. He knew they were there but they all just kinda popped up and started dropping hsm like they were out of style.
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EPT
