EPTIf Blizzard insists on keeping the 22 range unit and the "lock down all resource crystals in a base" ability in HotS this increased trigger range should be fair. The slow moving missile isnt that OP anyways and the only Terran ability which will force an enemy to micro against it (like Banelings rolling in).
[D] The raven buff does not address TvZ issues - Page 11
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
If Blizzard insists on keeping the 22 range unit and the "lock down all resource crystals in a base" ability in HotS this increased trigger range should be fair. The slow moving missile isnt that OP anyways and the only Terran ability which will force an enemy to micro against it (like Banelings rolling in). | ||
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Mayd
Finland251 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 19 2012 16:22 vthree wrote: And the BL/infestor/corrupter transition can come so early is that in the early game, queens are much better defensively so Zerg can drone up and expand slightly quicker which leads to fast infestors which shuts down Terran early mid game. Then Terran has to wait for the pre BL push. But with the creep so far, that push can be cleaned up by ling bling infestor if Terran steps on creep. Zergs are getting hive tech earlier and earlier because of this. Yeah. But maybe we should ask ourselves, why Zergs go for Broodlords over everything else. Everything else has gotten figuered out, because it can't fight T1-T2 P/T compositions around max, but can't force engagements without range. Imo blizzard has failed to forsee Protoss Warpgate dependence (I don't blame them for that; it's a new unique concept) and then took the easy way out (you have to take the easy ways in alpha and beta stages, else a game won't finish), nerfing everything left and right that had the potential to crush Warpgate Units - leaving zerg without the designed-to-be-solid midgame units, roach and hydralisk and therefore with too little variety. Long story short, a Broodlord and Infestor "anti mass up" - nerf and a buff for zerg midgame units to mass up better (easiest way to do so: hive tech upgrades) is long overdue. It just won't happen in WoL, as it would be to drastic of a change. For WoL, the hope should be that they adjust everything in a way, that in the end the game ends up balanced, even if this means that sometimes maxed T3 battles are the best way to play. | ||
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PersonDudeGuy
Canada47 Posts
I feel very hopeless in the match up currently, it makes me sad to see zergs choose ultralisks when fighting MMM with ghosts and thors and still manage to win despite the mistake in unit composition. | ||
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BanditX
United States78 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3366 Posts
PvZ is also in a troubled state, so i feel whatever change that will have to happen, has to address PvZ as well. Whether that's a creep spread nerf, inject nerf (making queen spawn 3 larvae, instead of 4 on each hatch,) or a change to fungal growth, doesn't really matter. And yes, i have been trying to copy MC's play... | ||
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pmp10
3315 Posts
On August 19 2012 16:40 hunts wrote: I'm sure mvp wouldn't be doing it in a tournament vs someone of nesteas caliber if he knew it didn't have a high success rate. And yet in the very tournament you cite this approach failed more often that it succeeded. There are reasons why this strategy only works on 2 largest maps in pool - should they be removed it will go away. That should speak volumes as to its validity. | ||
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sam05396
United States783 Posts
Also, its good this thread is about this game and not one not even in beta yet | ||
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sam05396
United States783 Posts
On August 19 2012 16:40 hunts wrote: I'm sure mvp wouldn't be doing it in a tournament vs someone of nesteas caliber if he knew it didn't have a high success rate. kinda weird that it just so happens to be on metropolis right? ill chalk it up to coincidence | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
On August 19 2012 16:50 Mayd wrote: Ravens are good but sadly they just work on Metropolis. Ok i solved the problem. Not the raven is wrong, but every other map than metropolis! | ||
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fds
Slovenia258 Posts
Try to find mistakes in their play and compare them. From my observations it seems like playing certain race is much less forgiving. I would be very happy if Blizzard removes of 100% snare from fungal and replace it with 80% slow as it was suggested above. | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
Think of the MULE in the late/endgame: Basically, having enough orbitals means you get more army supply. Chrono boost? The way it interacts with upgrades makes for a more powerful maxed army. You get ALL the upgrades. However... The way zerg functioned, the late game actually meant they had even LESS army supply, as you'd generally have 8-12 supply sunk into queens. That was hard for Blizzard to balance. Now that queens can tag along with a Hive army and contribute in a meaningful way, it raises the skill cap for both players in both positioning and spell micro. And thematically it just feels better - watching the creep and spines push swarm forward slowly is what the game should have always been. Combine this late game point with the propensity for 90%+ terrans to open early hellions (because zerg had no real counter to hellion harass), and the queen buff makes perfect sense. However, this brought us to the unexpected consequence: Creep is really damn good, and now that it's possible to have more queens earlier without dying, creep pushing has reached its intended design. That turned the balance, and made it easier for zerg to hit their late game comfortably. Now, today, there are few terrans who play the late game to its highest potential. One player who does is MVP! When the late game hits, he thins out his bio, starts getting air upgrades, and transitions to a raven/BC composition. Creep is a lot less relevant against this army, and scans are no longer required to clean creep (leaving more energy for MULEs, therefore more supply for army size). From a design perspective, you can see what the intent is, but of course BC/raven have some shortcomings that never really got hashed out in balance patches because Terran early/midgame was so powerful for so long. Remember; every unit should be viable. This is why we can't nerf the queen, we have to buff the terran lategame. I think the raven speed buff does help address that. With a good spread (the same way you spread vikings), fungal is not as powerful as OP states; and Battlecruisers don't really give a damn about fungals and are able to protect each other from neurals pretty well. If I had to make an additional change (assuming the minor raven buff/creep nerf doesn't pan out), I'd probably just reduce the cost of terran air a bit. It makes sense that you can't go "bio forever", and using the high tech units should be encouraged. Heck, I'd even adjust how Battlecruisers deal damage, because low damage/high rate of fire sucks in the late game vs armor upgrades. But leave the Queen alone; The buff made early game a lot more stable especially in ZvZ.. Baneling all-ins were powerful, popular, and easy to execute at all levels of play from bronze to Pro, they were as common as hellion openings were. It helps with map balance as well. There's no reason zerg should be without a 5 range unit in the early game, it allowed for too many abusive strategies exploiting the 1-2 range deficit, especially with proxies/cheese (and these strategies still work, but they're no longer about finding a nook or cranny to block with a building). Don't fight buffs to the late game and demand a lopsided early game. Every patch since release has been trying to smooth out these problems, which did result in a lot of Terran nerfs. If anything, it's a step in the right direction. I hope the BC, Ghost and Thor receive similar attention. | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
On August 19 2012 17:19 fds wrote: Stop looking at statistics and open some replays from recent tournaments. Try to find mistakes in their play and compare them. From my observations it seems like playing certain race is much less forgiving. I would be very happy if Blizzard removes of 100% snare from fungal and replace it with 80% slow as it was suggested above. Great idea, or give it a slowing gradient, so that inner units get more slowed than the outer ones, so that targeting with the fungal spell is rewarding! | ||
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Chr15t
Denmark1103 Posts
On August 19 2012 14:50 larse wrote: It has been pointed out many times, that the problem of Raven is not that Raven is not powerful enough, but the transition to raven is extremely difficult. To address this problem, the following buffs are needed: 1. Durability material upgrade is removed. But its effects become default. 2. Raven energy research time reduced to 80, down from 110. (Infestor's energy research time is 80). The cost of the research reduced to 100/100, down from 150/150 3. Seeker missile research time reduced to 80, down from 110. The cost of the research reduced to 100/100, down from 150/150. I've been of the opinion that the Durable materials should have been default for a while now. I think 3 upgrades for the raven to get maximum usefulness is a bit too much , that require too much research time. I dont know if i agree that ALL the changes are needed together tho. EDIT: I would maybe try and suggest that its the maps we play on today that arent suited very well for Terrans. I think the mapmakers went overboard with the sizes of the maps, which imply a lategame focus, case and point; metropolis, atlantis, whirldwind. I think Taldarim is in the catagori aswell, but the features on the map /rocks on third /siege natural , makes up for distances, which is why the winrates arent as lopsided, (last i checked). This is isolated from the TvZ point btw, i know the map has a bad reputation in other mapmatchups aswell, because of the layout | ||
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Yonnua
United Kingdom2331 Posts
Raven speed makes it easier to split, dodge fungals and get in closer, faster to use HSMs. What's more, it's stupid to say that "fungal growth many times locks down ravens making it so you cannot HSM (regardless of how well you split" whereas HSM very rarely damages all the units. Both players need to split their units while casting spells to shut down the others' spellcasters. The infestors have a range advantage, you have a considerable speed advantage. | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
On August 19 2012 16:53 PersonDudeGuy wrote: I agree a bit, i would vote for an increase in range over anything else but i honestly think that the imbalance in TvZ is indisputable based on the numbers and that terran needs an a nice lategame buff to equalize. Watching so many foreign zergs beat top koreans is demoralizing, i just don't see what i can do in the match up anymore. I would not be in favor of reverting the queen buff for a number of reasons, the ovie and creep changes are good however. I certainly parallel what you talk about with creep denying aggression and lategame strength, only a few days ago i played a game where i killed a zerg's main hatchery and 3rd hatchery two times as well as a 4th, despite so much economic damage and being maxed at least once the zerg pulled ahead and utterly crushed me with ultralisks and zerglings even while i was going MMM with tanks. I feel very hopeless in the match up currently, it makes me sad to see zergs choose ultralisks when fighting MMM with ghosts and thors and still manage to win despite the mistake in unit composition. I think you are misunderstanding a lot of stuff. If you are referring to IEM with the foreign zergs doing well vs korean terrans - the games that the terrans lost they actually made some pretty poor choices and mistakes. It's not as cut and dried as "bad foreigner zerg beats pro korean terran", it's usually the foreign zergs have one fairly inflexible style they stick to that happens to beat what that terran is doing but wouldn't hold up if the terran had practiced against that style at all in the past. As for your game where you lost to ultra/ling, i don't know what level you play at but is it possible you forgot to get upgrades or didn't expand enough or something? Also (not aimed at PersonDudeGuy) can someone explain to me why everyone is complaining that fungal is overpowered but chooses to skip Ghosts? Even one or two good EMPs can change the whole game. Tanks are great vs infestors as well but everyone always flies their vikings too far away from the tank lines. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
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Chr15t
Denmark1103 Posts
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gh0un
601 Posts
I guess you just suck at TvZ and just need to step it up instead of creating threads in the forums you shouldnt be creating. At this point im quite sure that even if you revert the queen range change, zerg would still get 6 queens and start spreading creep. That change only helped zerg players realize that getting a lot of queens early on is actually incredibly powerful due to the amount of creep one gets out. Take the range away and i can see the stephano style 4 roach with a lot of queens and how it gets up the same amount of creep. The core issue with Terrans is that you guys do stupid shit, move out at wrong timings and lose all your army, and then blame creep spread for it. You cant just faceroll people anymore, time to rethink your strategies, maybe watch some taeja games. | ||
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
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