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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
I find it funny when people bring up Taeja's TvZ and saying theres no problem with the current state of affairs. Taeja does not represent the T race as a whole which seems to have alot of problems shown by the lack of success on ladder and tournaments.
What Taeja shows is that his incredible work ethic/skill and decision making can overcome this balance issue most T are facing. Hes an outlier and good on him for playing through hard times in terms of TvZ balance. Another good example would be how god awful the maps (BW) in 06~07 were T favoured (Longinus 2 and Reverse Temple) Savior is the ONLY zerg to overcome map imbalance yet that didn't mean zergs were "fine" at all.
The balance issue can be often be compensated by ones skills/decision making (well up to a point), but most of us know that alot of T players other than a few select korean pros find it very very hard to close that gap (Even these guys says its hard - cbf finding them references :D). So Im not surprised at all seeing the T populace go down, lack of foreigner Ts in the foreign scene and most of the upcoming foreigner pros being mostly Z or P.
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I guess this idea : "Make fungals unstackable. So if infestors hit aready fungaled units with the spell again, it does absolutely nothing, not even refresh the spell duration" may be good.
But i prefer the one of that fungal will not be able anymore to root "massive" units, like Archons, Carriers, BC, Mothership.
It is already the case for ultralisk. And with that solution, archon toilet will become easier to place (and then, zerg who are spamming "split ur viking" will have to split their own units, and positionning better, and carriers / BC will become more common.
That will change nothing for ravens, for sure. But it may help mega late game PvZ and TvZ.
And if bli wants to see raven used a little more, (actually, there are no reasons for removing carriers from the game, and keep ravens. I do not see more ravens that carriers), they may decrease the amount of energy needed for the missile, or improve the amount of energy which have ravens when they pop. Or increase the range of the missile, and decrease something else of this spell (damages, splash...)
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Master Terran here
To some Protoss players:
Next thing you gonna tell us is that PvZ is totally fine and you aren't forced to do a 2 base timings every single game since Zerg gets out of control in the early game and you cant pressure them any more with your early zealots etc, to deny the third due to queens kiting the crap out of your early units... Obviously, If you actually want to play like that all the time that's fine.
Oh and:
People keep mentioning Taeja.
Well if all you got is mentioning Taeja out of hundreds of Terran pros (both Korean and foreign) then you basically confirm the silliness of TvZ where you have to play perfectly to win OR all the other Terran pros have suddenly become shit at the matchup.
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On August 19 2012 16:40 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 16:33 pmp10 wrote:On August 19 2012 15:53 Incomplet wrote:
IEM in the past few days.
MVP vs Nestea - HSM into Nesteas Corrupter Broodlords. Nestea GG's
MVP vs Slivko - HSM into Slivko's infestors. Slivko GG's
How did he do it to avoid fungals on his ravens? He scanned in advance to see his exact opponents composition and location, spread out his ravens and approached in small groups from multiple angles. This is all without the speed increase, let alone when the patch comes through.
Yes it did take him ages to build up his group of ravens and then the energy. But he turtled hard and continuesly multi prong dropped to buy heaps of time. Do you know how many times has that strategy failed to work? Because it's pretty important to understand whether your discussing examples proving the rule or just an exception to it. I'm sure mvp wouldn't be doing it in a tournament vs someone of nesteas caliber if he knew it didn't have a high success rate.
No I'm sure he wouldn't be doing it in a tournament if he had any other viable choice in a late game turtle. What go harder bio? Harder mech? Harder turrets? Harder ghosts?
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It is quite obvious that fungal range needs to reduced. Chain fungals would still be possible with reduced range but the infestors would be more at risk if they needed to get closer to fungal.
HSM energy cost cannot be reduced since 2 HSM on one Raven would be OP.
Raven upgrades needs to be cheaper and have lower research time.
All of this is very obvious and it baffles me that Blizzard has not really implemented it yet.
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On August 19 2012 18:15 YyapSsap wrote:
I find it funny when people bring up Taeja's TvZ and saying theres no problem with the current state of affairs. Taeja does not represent the T race as a whole which seems to have alot of problems shown by the lack of success on ladder and tournaments.
What Taeja shows is that his incredible work ethic/skill and decision making can overcome this balance issue most T are facing. Hes an outlier and good on him for playing through hard times in terms of TvZ balance. Another good example would be how god awful the maps (BW) in 06~07 were T favoured (Longinus 2 and Reverse Temple) Savior is the ONLY zerg to overcome map imbalance yet that didn't mean zergs were "fine" at all.
The balance issue can be often be compensated by ones skills/decision making (well up to a point), but most of us know that alot of T players other than a few select korean pros find it very very hard to close that gap (Even these guys says its hard - cbf finding them references :D). So Im not surprised at all seeing the T populace go down, lack of foreigner Ts in the foreign scene and most of the upcoming foreigner pros being mostly Z or P.
There's never been many top foreign terrans, even when terrans ruled the earth in Korea.
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Please just rid of those damn free overlord parking spots that see Every unit that enters and leaves your base. Those were totally unnecessary.
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heh, I saw this thread on the sidebar and I knew Avilo must have written it
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Zerg is definitely quite strong now, but you didn't take into account at all that Infestors can be nullified with hts and ghosts.
Also, creep is getting nerfed so soon it should be a bit easier on the terran side of things.
As for the queen change.. I don't really know how to feel. In a way I feel like it completely nullifies all hellion openings and makes it very easy for zerg to get a good saturation without sacrificing any larvae. On the other hand, it might just take some time for terrans to figure out how to effectively play tvz.
Aren't the winrates still quite even? There is little statistical support to saying that something about zerg is imba.
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From ForGG's twitter:
"박지수 @ForGG1
fucking zerg imba..... "
And then you got random Zergs telling us TvZ is fine. rofl
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Lol.
I like ForGG, and i find that Zerg are actually imba, but anyway, he made so many mistakes agaisnt Vortix. He deserved his lose.
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Terran has such small timing windows to make something happen.
All early game cheeses patched out.
Mid-game (if they survived they can push with 2-2 bio +1 tank and do something.
Late game Terran has to outplay the zerg straight up. Running around the map sniping expos because they lose any straight up battle.
Ravens are garbage. I can't believe pro gamers are humoring blizzard by actually making them. Broodlords benefit from melee upgrades which compound all game. Why would you switch into air terran when you spent the whole game getting 3-3 bio and mech upgrades.
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On August 19 2012 18:13 ScienceNotBusiness wrote:
oh i get it....a terran player who can barely beat low GM on NA is proposing a balance argument. LOL
It may be reaaaally difficult for you. But maybe you can look past the fact that this thread hasn't been made by a Code S Korean and read the opening post.
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I play zerg and yet believe that fungal should snare instead of root. A massive slow, something like "units affected by fungal suffer an 80% slow" would make for a much better game imo.
Nerfing infestors is a very delicate thing to do, it's a staple of a lot of zerg builds to be able to not die before broodlords, and plays a big part in the big sentry/immortal pushes. But later on it becomes too strong, I think having broodlords with slightly less health (taking one less viking volley to kill for example) would also be a potential fix.
And to finish queens with 4 range, right between the old and new one. You have to admit that the old 3 range made double factory hellion allins much too strong, but the new 5 one turns the matchup into a 10mn no-rush borefest.
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On August 19 2012 11:07 avilo wrote:
Templar/infestors are able to become useful 100% right when they pop out in the form of either feedbacks, archons, fungal, or IT. Ravens are a gamble and incredible risk because of the time necessary to make them pay off with HSMs, and even in the case you do get an HSM, if your raven is fungalled you suddenly have a paper weight in terms of an investment. Then the ravens die, that's -200 gas for TErran and the infestors are able to burrow and get away.
:O
stopped reading 
PDD is not useless.
Any unit (except the ultra) is at the mercy of fungal. This is starcraft. With more raven speed maybe you can start raven splitting. "Oh zerg HAS to clump oup broods for HSM to be effective", well, if zerg can split broods, you certainly can split ravens. GL.
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On August 19 2012 11:19 cactusjack914 wrote:
Yea, lets just ignore having this discussion because avilo started the thread? Im guessing if this thread was started by someone else the discussion would have started insteaded of just being ignored completely.
How is your arguement plausible, when no one else started it? 
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On August 19 2012 18:44 NeonFox wrote:
I play zerg and yet believe that fungal should snare instead of root. A massive slow, something like "units affected by fungal suffer an 80% slow" would make for a much better game imo.
Nerfing infestors is a very delicate thing to do, it's a staple of a lot of zerg builds to be able to not die before broodlords, and plays a big part in the big sentry/immortal pushes. But later on it becomes too strong, I think having broodlords with slightly less health (taking one less viking volley to kill for example) would also be a potential fix.
And to finish queens with 4 range, right between the old and new one. You have to admit that the old 3 range made double factory hellion allins much too strong, but the new 5 one turns the matchup into a 10mn no-rush borefest.
Really like those ideas actually, it is really tough for terran when they get chain fungalled, yet were only a few pixels out of position. The idea that fungal stops you microing at all seems very negative for the game.
Queens with 4 range sounds about right too. The early game dynamic between marines and stalkers is quite interesting because of the 1 range difference and requires very precise micro, whereas with queens having equal range as marines/hellions means that battles are just attack move.
A 4 range queen would suddenly make micro more important again, although it would be a lot tougher for the terran player compared to the old 3 range. Any idiot could kite 3 range queens but it would require a lot more attention and skill if the range difference was only 1.
Changes that encourage more micro are surely good?
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On August 19 2012 18:54 Cutlery wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:07 avilo wrote:
Templar/infestors are able to become useful 100% right when they pop out in the form of either feedbacks, archons, fungal, or IT. Ravens are a gamble and incredible risk because of the time necessary to make them pay off with HSMs, and even in the case you do get an HSM, if your raven is fungalled you suddenly have a paper weight in terms of an investment. Then the ravens die, that's -200 gas for TErran and the infestors are able to burrow and get away.
:O stopped reading PDD is not useless. Any unit (except the ultra) is at the mercy of fungal. This is starcraft. With more raven speed maybe you can start raven splitting. "Oh zerg HAS to clump oup broods for HSM to be effective", well, if zerg can split broods, you certainly can split ravens. GL.
I like how you emphaize the "GL".
Ts need more than luck nowadays 
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Hi, first time posting on Team Liquid, thought i would address some stuff that avilo said in accordance to the TvZ matchup
A) Look at the Match Win-Rates for July. they are still close to 50-50, something you fail to concede when writing your posts
B) Yes, the queen buff IS powerful, but so are many of the utilities that Terran have to offer. Many terran's have lately been going a style that includes a fast 3 command centers, using hellions to kill creep tumors (when possible) and a banshee for harass. the banshee and hellions pull the queens in so many different directions, the zerg is forced to create units to deal the with hellions or loose drones/their creep spread. even the threat of an attack from the terran can force units from the zerg, balancing the advantage the zerg gets from being able to drone so hard in the early game
C) The Raven speed change does address the issues with late game TvZ brood lord Infestor. you whine about how imbalanced fungal growth is as a stunning spell, but a speed increase with the ravens will help in wasting fungals as the infestors try to fungal your army.
D) continuing with the complaints on Infestors, you talk about how they "force an engagement" in places that are unfavorable to your race. well i hate to break it to you, but we aren't the only ones with those capabilities. Protoss can use a combination of storm and force fields to both force an engagement and destroy an army in a matter of seconds. Terran's can use chokes to really punish ling heavy builds, and brood lord armies can be easily trapped due to how slow they are.
I understand you feel frustrated with the new patch changes, a race consistently feels at odds when it is nerfed or another is buffed, but with time, players learn to adapt to a changing situation with different strategies and mindsets. I would recomend checking out Demuslim or Supernova if you wanted to see their style in TvZ, which has been working out quite well for them!
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On August 19 2012 12:24 MasterKang wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 12:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 12:15 WhalesFromSpace wrote:On August 19 2012 11:58 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 11:56 vthree wrote:On August 19 2012 11:45 .Sic. wrote:
Why did a lot of the terrans stop getting ghosts for EMP and snipe vs infestors (I've seen a few like gumiho)? I know that protoss players try to actively feedback vs infestors or storm them. I think one of the issues with ghosts vs infestors is that fungals can hit cloaked ghosts with fungals. So in big engagements, fungals is actually better due to the size of infestors. Even if infestors are clumped up, it takes quite a few EMPs to land while it takes 1-2 fungals to nap all the ghosts. Also, if enemy has overseers, your ghosts are just so much harder to retain while infestors can stay in the back and usually get away. zergs have been a lot better with their infestor control and retention. ive seen one EMP get majoritty of the infesters of a Zerg, infesters clump up pretty nicely and we need all th energy we can get so even removing 2/3rd of the infesters can pretty mcuh gurantee you win the next engagement if your smart at it It takes 2 EMPs to remove fungal. You only need about 3-4 fungals to adequately accentuate your force for the duration of an engagement; I'd be surprised if a battle lasted longer than that. Also with the lower EMP radius, you really can't hit 2/3 of the infestors if they are maxed and have the appropriate ratio in their composition. 3-4 fungals does not destroy an entire Terran army... 3-4 fungals barely kills 2 small clumps of marines what? 3-4 fungals ALWAYS kills clumps of marines. I'm pretty sure it only takes 2 fungals to bring marines down to red and 3 to kil them
It's all dependent on medivac energy, sometimes 3-4 fungals dont kill a single marine.
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EPT
