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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 19 2012 11:27 Secret05 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:10 InDesconrowl wrote:
Give it some time, Taeja is doing just fine in TvZ.
Instead of asking blizzard to change the game because you are struggling why don't you analyze Taeja's gameplay and learn how he succeeds in TvZ. dude stop... that's always everyone excuse, mvp is doing fine, taeja is doing fine, well guess what, nestea won an entire gsl without dropping a single game, if you wanna say taeja is doing fine, then zerg shouldn't have ever been buffed, because nestea is doing fine
But terran is getting buff :s
Ah. this feels useless 
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On August 19 2012 12:15 WhalesFromSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:58 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 11:56 vthree wrote:On August 19 2012 11:45 .Sic. wrote:
Why did a lot of the terrans stop getting ghosts for EMP and snipe vs infestors (I've seen a few like gumiho)? I know that protoss players try to actively feedback vs infestors or storm them. I think one of the issues with ghosts vs infestors is that fungals can hit cloaked ghosts with fungals. So in big engagements, fungals is actually better due to the size of infestors. Even if infestors are clumped up, it takes quite a few EMPs to land while it takes 1-2 fungals to nap all the ghosts. Also, if enemy has overseers, your ghosts are just so much harder to retain while infestors can stay in the back and usually get away. zergs have been a lot better with their infestor control and retention. ive seen one EMP get majoritty of the infesters of a Zerg, infesters clump up pretty nicely and we need all th energy we can get so even removing 2/3rd of the infesters can pretty mcuh gurantee you win the next engagement if your smart at it It takes 2 EMPs to remove fungal. You only need about 3-4 fungals to adequately accentuate your force for the duration of an engagement; I'd be surprised if a battle lasted longer than that. Also with the lower EMP radius, you really can't hit 2/3 of the infestors if they are maxed and have the appropriate ratio in their composition.
What... you need way more than 3-4 fungals unless the terran is really bad and doesnt split his units. 2 emps from one ghost can render atleast 3 infesstors useless. If you snipe, even better cause the infestors are now dead.
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blizzard has never balanced a game perfectly.. not one of them ever, the only thing you can really do imo is adapt like how the scene did in BW and make maps that cater to certain races over other races to balance the issues out.
So really ask what would balance out issues in TvZ? personally i like the idea of having lots of up/down hills that deny easy creep spread as an example that would help keep creep back but not in anyway make Z at a real disadvantage, it would just slow down the creep spread a bit. Another example would be map sizes / distances from say main-nat-3rd for T drops vs Z.. just some examples. No need for anything extreme just experiment with maps and work your way towards a more balanced game.
leave the casters as is imo.
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On August 19 2012 17:56 Shebuha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 17:46 Tritanis wrote:
Make fungals unstackable. So if infestors hit aready fungaled units with the spell again, it does absolutely nothing, not even refresh the spell duration. This, in my opinion, would make fungal require a little more skill/timing to use, as opposed to how easy is to cast right now (with its instant cast time and refreshable duration it takes little skill to perform chain fungals from safe range).
That sounds incredibly stupid because it would make fungal the only spell with that function (not refreshing the spell when stacked) and make it incredibly punishing to Zerg. That's not even a nerf or a balance fix, it's literally just to fuck over ONLY Zerg players.
Wrong. Storm does not stack, and stacking EMPs has extremely dimished returns.
On August 19 2012 19:01 partydude89 wrote:
Hi, first time posting on Team Liquid, thought i would address some stuff that avilo said in accordance to the TvZ matchup
B) Yes, the queen buff IS powerful, but so are many of the utilities that Terran have to offer. Many terran's have lately been going a style that includes a fast 3 command centers, using hellions to kill creep tumors (when possible) and a banshee for harass. the banshee and hellions pull the queens in so many different directions, the zerg is forced to create units to deal the with hellions or loose drones/their creep spread. even the threat of an attack from the terran can force units from the zerg, balancing the advantage the zerg gets from being able to drone so hard in the early game
C) The Raven speed change does address the issues with late game TvZ brood lord Infestor. you whine about how imbalanced fungal growth is as a stunning spell, but a speed increase with the ravens will help in wasting fungals as the infestors try to fungal your army.
First, welcome to TL!
Second, The fact that the way Terran has to keep up with Zerg is by doing a 3 OC build is what people are angry about. It creates No-Rush, No Early Action, games that are down right terrible to watch. Last thing Starcraft needs is less viewers when its already dwarfed in viewership by a sub-par game. In order to kill creep with Hellions, Terran has to A) Find a hole in range 5 Queen defense. B) Find active creep tumors, usually located where the Queens are. and C) Fall behind in worker count/income to use a scan, while Zerg just drones behind his non-larva costing Queens. All this to deny their rapid spreading map vision. Seems like Zerg gets the best end of the bargain.
Third, spreading Ravens to avoid Fungals works, sometimes. Until you realize that Fungal is range 9 and HSM is range 6. IF Terran ever does get a HSM off without the Raven dying uselessy, I expect the Zerg to be required to split their units. Similar to how Terran is required to split when you attack move with Banelings. Not to mention Brood Lord tech and its supporting units (and even alternative if Brood Lords fail) all benefit from +Melee upgrades. Terran's tech tree is nowhere near as linear and simple as Zerg. You can research one upgrade and Fungal is good to go. Terran has to, at minium, research two. Corvid Reactor for Raven starting energy, which still isn't enough to HSM straight from the Starport, and HSM itself. Seems like Zerg, again, gets the better end of the bargain.
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TvZ may be "balanced" depending on how you wish to interpret the numbers, but ravens SUCK.
And i mean outright suck in their design, they have abilities that have no synergy whatsoever and are often not worth upgrading. Let's take a look at them:
- Pop-up Turret
On the surface it seems like a cheap wall that can synergize with the ranged terran army, unfortunately their 1x1 footprint and measley HP makes them utterly worthless. Not to mention that they are pea-shooters, and all the upgrades they can get have no impact on their functionality at all.
- PDD
Of course this can be useful, unfortunately it does not block the most important projectiles such as broodlings and colossi lasers. The only spell worth using.
- Seeker Missile
The all-time worst ability in the game, 2 years running and still an utter piece of shit unless the game somehow goes to mass air in TvT. Supposed to be a test of skill where the enemy micros away his units, unfortunately the missile is either:
A) Never launched because the raven gets blown up by fungals/feedback
B) Never hits the target because it moves like a 1970s daihatsu
C) Somehow manages to hit something and kills it but because it costs 125 energy the zerg remakes his army and you are now helpless
The obvious solution is just to give the Raven irradiate, which is far more versatile and skill testing. It is also a strategy in itself as making the powerful but fragile "raven cloud" supported by MMM can be very mobile and exciting to watch ala SK Terran.
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Master Terran/Zerg who has played both sides of the matchup extensively here.
I feel that if it's so easy to get to late game as Zerg (which it is which Queen buff given creep spread with extra Queens etc), fungal shouldn't be as powerful. Fungal not only deals damage but also negates micro. It takes an incredible amount of multitasking to keep marines spread out to avoid getting mass fungaled while worrying about macro (forget about multi-pronged attacks while Infestors are out). Brood Lord/Corruptor/Infestor is borderline impossible to deal with because of the tech switches required. Obviously MMM shouldn't be a viable counter to that unit composition, but in order to get a different tech tree, you need to completely switch your tech infrastructure and that takes time that you just don't have during the mid-game.
As for ideas to "balance" that...I'd say decreasing fungal radius or removing the negation of micro by the spell itself. The dynamic unit movement in Starcraft 2 essentially guarantees that Marines/whatever are going to move in a perfect ball, and that's a perfect environment for an Infestor to get 20+ kills with literally 5 clicks. It takes zero skill, and it's incredibly frustrating not only to play against a Zerg as a Terran and have your whole control group die, but also to watch games where Terrans clearly should win, but end up losing simply because the Zerg can preserve a handful of Infestors.
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On August 19 2012 18:28 Vapaach wrote:
On the other hand, it might just take some time for terrans to figure out how to effectively play tvz.
There is little statistical support to saying that something about zerg is imba.
yes you would probably still say this same fucking bullshit in 3 years....."let the terrans figure out how to play tvz"....i heard that sentece MONTHS ago....how fucking long do guys like you want to let "terra figure out"???
there is more then enough statistical support, ladderwinrates say nothing you should activate your brain or google how ladder winrates will allways be close to 50/50 even if one race is drasticly overpowered....and go check how many terrans/zergs/protoss are in GM in the different servers, THAT alone is enough statistical support
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I would like a revamp of raven's spells, HSM and turret sucks. Maybe an orbital strike or calldown destructible rocks?
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On August 19 2012 19:29 Sixer wrote:
Master Terran/Zerg who has played both sides of the matchup extensively here.
I feel that if it's so easy to get to late game as Zerg (which it is which Queen buff given creep spread with extra Queens etc), fungal shouldn't be as powerful. Fungal not only deals damage but also negates micro. It takes an incredible amount of multitasking to keep marines spread out to avoid getting mass fungaled while worrying about macro (forget about multi-pronged attacks while Infestors are out). Brood Lord/Corruptor/Infestor is borderline impossible to deal with because of the tech switches required. Obviously MMM shouldn't be a viable counter to that unit composition, but in order to get a different tech tree, you need to completely switch your tech infrastructure and that takes time that you just don't have during the mid-game.
As for ideas to "balance" that...I'd say decreasing fungal radius or removing the negation of micro by the spell itself. The dynamic unit movement in Starcraft 2 essentially guarantees that Marines/whatever are going to move in a perfect ball, and that's a perfect environment for an Infestor to get 20+ kills with literally 5 clicks. It takes zero skill, and it's incredibly frustrating not only to play against a Zerg as a Terran and have your whole control group die, but also to watch games where Terrans clearly should win, but end up losing simply because the Zerg can preserve a handful of Infestors.
So true.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
The changes to the Raven mean that it can now outrun these units, where previously it was slower:
- Sentries
- Unstimmed marines
- Ghosts
- Void rays
- Infesters (off creep)
- Hydras (off creep)
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well you could think these current changes don't affect alot, because tumors most of the time aren't spread on max range anyway, and the raven won't speed up an escape faster then other units(oops apparently it does quiet heavily even yay). But the tumors will have an effect on low level zergs creep spread, where terran is really hard to play. And the raven buff helps you escape, if you use the raven. So yes if you think about not changing anything, nothing will change for you. I personally have no problem keeping my raven up and running the whole game (unless i lose horrible against mutas), but i see alot of people losing their ravens needlessly. And most not even utilizing it. Its kind of like the refusal to use the mothership against zerg.
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When i have a raven and face infestator i have this strange feeling to be a spot against a frog.
The speed upgrad won't change my feeling against infestator.
User was warned for this post
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On August 19 2012 11:14 Arkansassy wrote:
I think you should have bolded this, avilo. Obivously some people just see your name and don't bother reading - or can't *shrugs*
Pretty much this. Did any other pro comment on this matter in this thread?
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
There's a few things that could make the raven much better.
Turrets get benefits from upgrades
Seeker Missile costs half, maybe 3/4 energy so you don't use one seeker missile and lose your entire amount of energy that takes ages to build up
Seeker missile initial fire range increased so your ravens don't insta die as soon as you cast it.
PDD is fine as it is.
Irradiate would be nice to have again, but I think with a good amount of seeker missile buffs it could be as good as the Sci vessel was with irradiate.
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Regardless of win rates, people need to learn that the effort involved needs to be considered in balance.
Terrans have to do SO much more than other races to get a win, and buffing Raven speed does nothing to change this.
IN FACT, akin to the pre speed-nerf infestor, this may indeed be a nerf to the Raven, getting it fungalled even easier.
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The amount of people going "Just play like TaeJa, ezpz" is aggravating. He's arguably the best player in the world right now, you can't just play like him. He's not using any kind of special builds, he's just amazingly good with everything he does.
Every Terran but him struggles with the match-up. Just look at the IEM results yesterday.
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The upgrades need to be accessible easier. There is 5 upgrades for Ravens which only affect the unit itself, 2 from Engineering bay and 3 from Startport's Tech-Lab and that's just way too much. They should look either at the Upgrades build time or cost and I would like to see Durable Materials removed and granted to Ravens automatically.
One of the issue with creep is that it just recedes insanely slowly. I say it's ridiculous in the current meta-game, NOTE; current, it was much different when creep spread wasn't so easily spread before so it just made sense it receded slowly. Right now the fact that it takes 120 seconds for creep tumor and 60 seconds for overlord creep to recede is really something Blizzard should look at when it comes to creep.
I understand Zerg should have the opportunity to have the defender's advantage with slow creep recede but in the current state it's too much in my opinion thus it would only need to be a slight reduce.
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what if the range on HSM was slightly more than fungal growth?
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On August 19 2012 18:30 Psychobabas wrote:
From ForGG's twitter:
"박지수 @ForGG1
fucking zerg imba..... "
And then you got random Zergs telling us TvZ is fine. rofl
ForGG is right!
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Op could be a post in the balance discussion thread imo.
But ontopic: Queen buff should not be reverted; i agree that fungal taking away micro is problematic.
Queen scenario: blizzard proposes queen change -> everyone plays with queen -> different queen buff comes up.
I feel like this will be the same scenario. The change is not final.
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EPT
