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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 19 2012 11:29 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 11:27 Secret05 wrote:On August 19 2012 11:10 InDesconrowl wrote:
Give it some time, Taeja is doing just fine in TvZ.
Instead of asking blizzard to change the game because you are struggling why don't you analyze Taeja's gameplay and learn how he succeeds in TvZ. dude stop... that's always everyone excuse, mvp is doing fine, taeja is doing fine, well guess what, nestea won an entire gsl without dropping a single game, if you wanna say taeja is doing fine, then zerg shouldn't have ever been buffed, because nestea is doing fine Or DRG's 90% win rate in TvZ at one point, infact if that's how we're going to approach it then maybe we should have nerfed zerg! But seriously, people need to actually have a discussion about the post instead of saying "avilo u r a fag" or "taeja does it". TL discussion is fucking embarrassing sometimes...
We can´t. I think other than Korean GM randoms like Mvp there is hardly anybody who is truy capable of judging. The super high level Zergs don´t know Terran enough and the other way around. Thats why I personally don´t care a lot about QXCs or Avilos opinion. Both are judging from their own perspective, but both are not capable of abusing terran like MKP, Taeja and in a certain way Mvp.
When we discuss balance we should always look at the highest level of play. Sadly there are only very, very few games between these strongest players. The sample size is just way too small do judge.
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I agree with most of the OP.
The biggest concern I have is the time the change was made, and the reason it was made to begin with.
Blizzard has stated in numerous interviews and blog posts that they thought zerg wasn't getting to be zergie enough with 4 hellions containing them. While I disagree that 4 hellions can contain a zerg (speedlings can surround them easily if terran isn't staring at the hellions for that exact moment, or roaches), I will consent for the sake of argument.
They change the queens to make zerg feel more zergie, this is a nice idea, zerg feels more zergie, whoopdie do!
The big problem here is that they made a clear balance change in favor of zerg, at a point when the matchup was even at all levels (and slowly moving towards the zerg's favor what with map and metagame changes). They combined the queen change with the overlord speed change, and a whole lot of maps that allow zerg to spot move outs from terrans through overlord cliffs next to the choke at the natural. This allows zerg to just build queens "blindly", because if terran moves out they will know about it immediately. Terran has to over-commit to do an attack that punishes queen play, meaning zerg can over-react in defense and still be in a superior position.
The simplest of answers is to reverse the queen range change. Hellions need to be able to provide that valuable information and map control. If terran has no safe way to scout without comitting, then they will always be forced to take risks to stay on par with a zerg who has a strong economy and catch-all defense.
The hellion builds from terran forced a reaction from zerg, they had to sim city and play tight, and if they wanted to take their third before lair without commiting a lot of larvae to speedlings, they would have to make some roaches or slowly push out with spine(s) and queens. This allowed terran to draw units to the front and get a fairly good idea of what was going on in the zerg's base without having to see it. It allowed zergs to drop macro hatches early in their main and power up on 2 bases for really unit heavy t2 midgames.
These factors combined made for a much more interactive TvZ midgame, the early was a bit predictable (terran would have an expo and 4-6 hellions). There was still the exciting posibility of killing drones if zerg made a mistake and terran could sneak some hellions in, or zerg might be able to kill off the hellions if they commited to speedlings and got a surround when terran wasn't paying close enough attention, but there was some sense of stability. Neither player was super scared of dieing immediately because they both had a good read on the game (overlords to check gas timings, hellions to spot tech choices and queen counts). The queen change essentially erased this portion of the game, it's skipped over entirely, and zerg can go straight to three base. They have the option of either teching quickly to infestors and then brood or ultra, or they have the option to just make a ton of units and killing a terran who played safe and didn't take a super fast third base. Neither of these promote lots of little engagements. If zerg is going heavy on the ling bane, and lighter on the infestors/mutas, then an aggressive terran dies more often than not because zerg has cheaper production and stronger economy. This forces terrans to rely on siege tanks to survive the midgame. However, if zerg is going heavier on the infestors/ling and teching more quickly to hive, the tanking terran won't be putting on any pressure and zerg will be able to get their scary econ/infestor/hive combo going more quickly than terran will be able to deal with. It's kind of a strange setup, where zerg has a range between 2 distinct styles, and terran has a range between 2 distinct styles. In it's simplest form, tank heavy does well against ling/bane heavy play, and aggro bio with expos behind it does well against turtly infestor play, however defensive tank play does very poorly against passive infestor/hive play, and aggro bio does very poorly against heavy ling/bane.
Since terran's production facilities cost so much, and tanks take so long to produce, commiting to a lot of tanks prevents terran from being aggressive with bio, and committing to a lot of barracks and quicker medivacs to put on pressure with bio prevents terran from suddenly having enough tanks to play an efficient defensive game vs heavy ling/bane. Zerg on the other hand can build an infestation pit, see a ton of bio coming, and still instantly morph 30 banelings and delay going hive tech until they've stabilized, or on the flipside, they can see a lot of tanks in a defensive posture and only make banelings to defend drops and dump all the rest of their gas into infestors and hive tech. These mechanics alone straight up favor zerg. The compensation is supposed to be that their units are less effective and they have to have more drones so their max army should be considerably weaker than that of a terran's, however this didn't pan out as previously zergs had to be able to engage fairly straight up. Terrans have resorted to doing extremely risky builds just to keep up with zerg, going 1 rax CC CC into double gas off only a few marines, and then going directly into double ebay. The flipside is 2 base marine/marauder hellion all-ins, which if scouted do quite poorly. These builds are becoming standard, which allows zergs to just all-in blindly, or after having a speedie ovie scout a vulnerability, and win an overwhelming percentage of their games through exploiting simple build order losses of terrans forced into a bad spot.
Reverting the queen change will remove a lot of the risk factor of the build order choices, and while the focus will still be around both players securing their third bases, the interaction surrounding that focus will return to it's previous wonderment. Zergs will have to identify and exploit mistakes from terran players, and terrans will have opportunities to identify timings and openings in zerg's defense, pulling their mutas and lings around the map with medivac harass, and pushing forward to deny more creep and threaten zerg's fourth. We will finally get to experience a terran player pushing with marine tank after pulling a zerg's army out of position with carefully timed and placed medivac drops, securing a strong position, and taking a good engagement. Or zerg masterfully deflecting drops with just the right number of units and well placed static defense and a good overlord spread, and then catching an army off-guard and chasing terran back to a defensive position at their third. What made TvZ such an amazing matchup is that terran had a lot of options with their army, they could put most of it into drops and just leave their tanks and marines behind to defend, or they could focus their entire army together and just drill a single position on the map. Zerg would have to react by cutting off reinforcements, balling up enough units, and then crushing the isolated army. The amazing displays of multitasking, unit control, and strategic army positioning was really a treat to watch. I have yet to see a TvZ post patch evoke the same feeling, and the closest I've gotten are from games where both players executed old pre-patch build orders.
TL;DR:
Terran defense loses to zerg passive hive, terran aggro loses to zerg aggro
Revert change to remove the high number of build order wins/losses, and most importantly:
Bring back terran's ability to move out on the map in the midgame by pulling zerg out of position with drop(s)
Rever the change, please.
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Such a silly thread. You contradicted yourself on the first paragraphs. How is it that a buff that improves ravens' ability to dodge/juke Fungal Growth doesn't help Ravens against infestors ?
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On August 19 2012 15:50 digmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 14:47 Kaleidos wrote:
I think Blizzard knows how much bad design it is fungal vs air units. They even tested a no air fungal long time ago, but in WoL looked it simply was too much.
I foresee a no fungal vs air in hots with the hydra buff and hydra support buff (ya that doesn't help the current game).
Talkin' about PvT, even just as a spectator (yup i'm Z), i noticed how HT's Feedback shutdown any attempt for the terran to go T3 Air, since both BC's and Ravens suffer immensely vs feedback, which the protoss always have in play late game. Maybe we should have Storm and Feedback on 2 different units (new Archon)?
I don't know and it is not my job to find a solution, but i believe there might be an issue here too. Feedback was indeed on a different unit in BW, the  Dark Archon
..and i didn't even play BW :D ..Blizzy is probably saving a change in the protoss templar tech for LotV.
Anyway i see many suggesting to nerf infestor range or nerf fungal some other way. I believe that you do not want to see Less chain fungals ..you want to see None of them. Gameplay first, then balance.
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On August 19 2012 20:14 Mondieu wrote:
Such a silly thread. You contradicted yourself on the first paragraphs. How is it that a buff that improves ravens' ability to dodge/juke Fungal Growth doesn't help Ravens against infestors ?
He is trying to explain that this buff will slightly help Terran but it will not solve late-game problem.
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On August 19 2012 11:10 InDesconrowl wrote:
Give it some time, Taeja is doing just fine in TvZ.
Instead of asking blizzard to change the game because you are struggling why don't you analyze Taeja's gameplay and learn how he succeeds in TvZ.
If we could imitate taeja then terrans would have no issues with TvZ / TvP. It's not hard to copy a BO, it's hard to copy a player's style and micro.
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Before the queen patch, the matchup was pretty even. Then it took a nose dive for terrans for the first couple of months after the patch. In the most recent tournaments however, the amount of terrans and zergs in the final stages have been more or less equal.
This behaviour of the TvZ winrate is to be expected after buff like that and does not indicate an imbalance before, after or even during the period of less winrate for terrans. The reason is that zerg players were not required to adapt to the new patch. They could play the old usual style without the big queen emphasis that we are seeing nowadays, and still fare well against terrans just like before the patch. Terrans were forced to adapt and create new builds to counter the new zerg playstyle. This process took some time, but now terrans and zergs are once again on even footing.
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I'm sure there are high master/GM zergs that would play a UMS where you change the game the game to adequately balance the issues at hand.
This would of course require that you make a UMS map where the balance changes you suggest take place, and take the time to refine them and have those changes evaluated by your peers.
I think the points made in the OP are certainly thought provoking, but the availability of the map editor means that there is a way to show proof of concept for changes that you believe would fix the issue. There is too much talk going on when there is the option to act.
I'm of the opinion that the multi-million dollar company who's job it is to make these changes and to keep their game current and balanced is better suited to theorycraft than anyone else, and this includes pro players. I do, however, think that it's possible they make mistakes. The burden of proof is on us, the community, to show them AT LEAST proof of concept of a change that would make better sense before stating that their direction is wrong.
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AS a GM terran player I can say that the true problem of tvz lies in infestors and creep. Giving zerg ability zerg to see everything whats happening. I mean, how many times youve seen terran to have comeback after bad start? And zerg?
And raven speed doesnt help to that... The problem with raven is that you need to invest shitton of money to get them, example. 3 upgrades, atleast 2 starports is already 1000/1000 for infestor you need 300/300 to get them... +no dmg upgrade for autoturret, but if youre able to get huge raven count I cant disagree with it, its good.
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the worst with the patching is that they patch it at different levels.
the games dont always reach late game, so while they buff terran late game the buff will not always be noticeable ingame, simply because you dont always get to late game.
the zerg buffs are all T1, every game you have sniperqueens, every game you have the overlord scouting.
this is just bad balancing by blizzard.
they should not buff a unit that is uesless, they should nerf stuff ppl (both terran and protoss) complain about. like funGGal
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On August 19 2012 19:01 .Sic. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 12:24 MasterKang wrote:On August 19 2012 12:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 12:15 WhalesFromSpace wrote:On August 19 2012 11:58 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 11:56 vthree wrote:On August 19 2012 11:45 .Sic. wrote:
Why did a lot of the terrans stop getting ghosts for EMP and snipe vs infestors (I've seen a few like gumiho)? I know that protoss players try to actively feedback vs infestors or storm them. I think one of the issues with ghosts vs infestors is that fungals can hit cloaked ghosts with fungals. So in big engagements, fungals is actually better due to the size of infestors. Even if infestors are clumped up, it takes quite a few EMPs to land while it takes 1-2 fungals to nap all the ghosts. Also, if enemy has overseers, your ghosts are just so much harder to retain while infestors can stay in the back and usually get away. zergs have been a lot better with their infestor control and retention. ive seen one EMP get majoritty of the infesters of a Zerg, infesters clump up pretty nicely and we need all th energy we can get so even removing 2/3rd of the infesters can pretty mcuh gurantee you win the next engagement if your smart at it It takes 2 EMPs to remove fungal. You only need about 3-4 fungals to adequately accentuate your force for the duration of an engagement; I'd be surprised if a battle lasted longer than that. Also with the lower EMP radius, you really can't hit 2/3 of the infestors if they are maxed and have the appropriate ratio in their composition. 3-4 fungals does not destroy an entire Terran army... 3-4 fungals barely kills 2 small clumps of marines what? 3-4 fungals ALWAYS kills clumps of marines. I'm pretty sure it only takes 2 fungals to bring marines down to red and 3 to kil them It's all dependent on medivac energy, sometimes 3-4 fungals dont kill a single marine.
It depends upon ratio of medivacs to marines. The situation you describe only really happens when marines numbers are very low and medivac numbers are really high. When it gets to the point where each marine has his own personal medivac then fungals are not effective at all, but at this point the zerg player should have a load of units ready to pop out.
In any sort of large scale engagement fungals are going to kill marines very effectively.
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On August 19 2012 19:01 partydude89 wrote:
Hi, first time posting on Team Liquid, thought i would address some stuff that avilo said in accordance to the TvZ matchup
A) Look at the Match Win-Rates for July. they are still close to 50-50, something you fail to concede when writing your posts
B) Yes, the queen buff IS powerful, but so are many of the utilities that Terran have to offer. Many terran's have lately been going a style that includes a fast 3 command centers, using hellions to kill creep tumors (when possible) and a banshee for harass. the banshee and hellions pull the queens in so many different directions, the zerg is forced to create units to deal the with hellions or loose drones/their creep spread. even the threat of an attack from the terran can force units from the zerg, balancing the advantage the zerg gets from being able to drone so hard in the early game
C) The Raven speed change does address the issues with late game TvZ brood lord Infestor. you whine about how imbalanced fungal growth is as a stunning spell, but a speed increase with the ravens will help in wasting fungals as the infestors try to fungal your army.
D) continuing with the complaints on Infestors, you talk about how they "force an engagement" in places that are unfavorable to your race. well i hate to break it to you, but we aren't the only ones with those capabilities. Protoss can use a combination of storm and force fields to both force an engagement and destroy an army in a matter of seconds. Terran's can use chokes to really punish ling heavy builds, and brood lord armies can be easily trapped due to how slow they are.
I understand you feel frustrated with the new patch changes, a race consistently feels at odds when it is nerfed or another is buffed, but with time, players learn to adapt to a changing situation with different strategies and mindsets. I would recomend checking out Demuslim or Supernova if you wanted to see their style in TvZ, which has been working out quite well for them!
i dont understand why you would be "forced" to fight terran in a choke. he would have to be right outside your base for this and only on certain maps. really poor analogy. and brood lord with corruptor and infestor support are not "easily trapped" because they win 90% of the fights they get into up front, thats why most of the time people just walk around broods if possible. i have never seen anyone make brood lords alone. and its not like brood lords are a hard unit to get into like battlecruisers or carriers otherwise either youd see more BC/carrier or less broods.
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i dont like queen change either, and i would prefer fungal to just slow units a la ensnare in BW
or make fungal have a latency so you can run from it. too much stuff in sc2 is impossible to avoid. id much rather have AOE spells like emp, storm and fungal be strong but possible to micro against, than deal low damage but impossible to avoid
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On August 19 2012 20:48 summerloud wrote:
i dont like queen change either, and i would prefer fungal to just slow units a la ensnare in BW
or make fungal have a latency so you can run from it. too much stuff in sc2 is impossible to avoid. id much rather have AOE spells like emp, storm and fungal be strong but possible to micro against, than deal low damage but impossible to avoid
problem is fungal USED to be low damage but impossible to avoid but they changed it so its pretty much a psi storm that you cant run out of once its been cast. the rooting effect was designed for a entirely different kind of damage/duration...
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This guy still qqing? Lets see zerg are doing fuckin horrible right now in almost every tourney
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On August 19 2012 20:51 Diizzy wrote:
This guy still qqing? Lets see zerg are doing fuckin horrible right now in almost every tourney
Really? Just seeing 3 zergs in top 4 at IEM? 
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On August 19 2012 20:52 Fuzer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 20:51 Diizzy wrote:
This guy still qqing? Lets see zerg are doing fuckin horrible right now in almost every tourney Really? Just seeing 3 zergs in top 4 at IEM?
and the only player left that is not a zerg is the only 4times GSL champion!
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foreigner mentality at it´s best - crying instead of getting better.
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Like this "buff" adresses anything anyway.
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On August 19 2012 20:58 CaF-Lunar wrote:
foreigner mentality at it´s best - crying instead of getting better.
From ForGG's twitter:
"박지수 @ForGG1
fucking zerg imba..... "
Say that again? -_-
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EPT
