|
If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 19 2012 22:04 iky43210 wrote:
all race matchup is fine, its quite balance as of now.
If you want to bitch about the unparalleled balance between each stage of the game, then that's a different story. But looking it as a whole, balance difference between protoss, terran, and zerg is most likely not significant (and if it is, not enough for significance to matter)
If it is significant, it matters. That's the definition of significant. Protoss is doing a bit better than the other 2 races. ~52.3% win-rate or so. I'd say it is significant, but if it is caused by the game itself or the meta-game is hard to say.
|
On August 19 2012 22:04 iky43210 wrote:
all race matchup is fine, its quite balance as of now.
If you want to bitch about the unparalleled balance between each stage of the game, then that's a different story. But looking it as a whole, balance difference between protoss, terran, and zerg is most likely not significant (and if it is, not enough for significance to matter)
It is imbalanced at different level of plays, you can't say that balance is the same at Gold, Diamond, Mater, Grand Master and Korean level.
And that is why people are whining sadly. The only thing I am looking at is pro level of play(Grand Master and Korean level), and there, you are right, the game is quite balanced.
|
On August 19 2012 13:36 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 13:21 mahO wrote:On August 19 2012 11:19 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:16 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 11:14 avilo wrote:On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup. a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues. b) thread is not about me personally c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment. the game doesnt need a giant change doing small things like making ravens faster and creep slower is exactly what blizz needs to do the game is so balanced right now that a careless nerf or buff just makes it more imbalanced they need small nerfs taht are carefully thought out and tested and watched religiously people said the same thing about warp prisoms now warp prism harass is hugely hard to deal with as Zerg You mean no careless unnecessary giant changes like giving the queen an extra two range in an already close to 50-50 balanced match-up...right?  As for blizzard going slow with changes, that is great, but changing raven speed does nothing to address any of the balance issues for the TvZ match-up that occurred after the queen buff patch. The creep spread nerf I'm sure most players agree blizzard needs to do. And I guess it was close to 50-50 when ghost were way more powerful? Tanks would hit at 50 on bio and we played on Steppes of War in GSL and ladder right? Plus speed reapers and faster raxx & bunkers, I guess you didnt complain back then... funny. Hilarious how people cant understand that it takes time, and yes the queen buff was necessary, harsh for the terran metagame clearly, but a simple helion build requiring a mass zergling production / roaches so the zerg could at least get out of his base, was too strong, and it has been too strong for way too long without people realizing it. You never asked yourself, why, out of all match ups in SC2, the helion opening was the most used? I mean, easily, 80% of TvZ were opened with helions. So yeah, you guys are lost because you lost a lot on practice and habits on a build that isnt that useful anymore, deal with it I find it bizarre that people believe ghosts were some tyrannical unit in the history of TvZ when they were only used for a tiny window. You'd be laughed at for suggesting it (I think IdrA was multiple times directly after the Infestor buff that he thought was a nerf). The history of TvZ is the history of early aggression being tested against defensive skills, not super late game ghost armies beating maxed brood lords. At some point they just tilted it farther in the direction of the defender than many Ts are comfortable with, and I agree with them. When one race has a superior late game, maps give three bases, and they have good scouting and defense against harassment, it's not hard to see why some Ts feel annoyed. It's exactly how Zs felt against mass reapers or 2rax or even that hellion build, all of which got nerfed fairly quickly, and Ts feel annoyed that Blizzard doesn't seem to be doing anything as substantial as the queen range buff was. Of course, Blizzard doesn't really care that much because they'd rather roll out HotS. Edit: I mean think of it this way. TvZ used to be the most exciting matchup to watch as a random player. When you sit down to watch a TvZ today, is it as interesting as a year ago? Not so much.
Because they were tyrannical on T3 units, and about the queen buff it's hilarious how all you terrans jumped on it so you could bitch about it. It cancels an abuse of helions being too annoying / restricting early game, END OF STORY, queens still cost 150, they still are long to build, and they still have shitty damage. Many zergs didnt even change their playstyle / queen number after the patch. This is ridiculous, when you had the most imbalanced units and features you were ok with it, but when Blizzard takes it in the right direction, which is diversifying the possibilities in this match up, you just yell at imbalance. Yes, terrans can macro, and yes, there is other way to prevent a zerg from droning.
Creep? Use your freaking ravens, for so fucking long I've seen so many terrans skipping ravens lategame, "but it's so fragile" oh because infestors arent? Ghost's emp is still viable against clumped up infestors, and even the best zergs are still fragile on their infestors positioning, 2 emps / 8 snipes, and you cancel / kill 600+ worth of gas, but hey, you really cant spend 200 on a raven, it's too fragile... It's not an harass unit, seeker missile / pdd is so underrated against broodlord armies it's hilarious to see that 95% of terran dont even try experimenting with their own race for years now, but they much prefer to whine and whine on TL / bnet about it.
Terran is fine, you just got lazy (and many pros too) getting used to play simplified builds that you trained over and over. You didnt toy around with your race like Protoss or Zergs did, and like Artosis said, this patch is good, disregarding balance, because it will force terrans to move their ass and finally try new things.
|
^Agree completely on every point.
|
Some Terrans such as MVP are starting to mess around with Sky Terran lategame. I wonder if it's going to catch on. If it does, this Raven buff won't be critical, but it'll certainly help. Hopefully it's not just winning from surprise value.
|
On August 19 2012 11:49 ilbh wrote:
I think avilo's points makes sense...
what about increasing the range of HSM? so you can still use it while fungal'ed. I don't remember if its possible to cast HSM while fungal'ed... if not possible they should make it possible.
imo Terran has some fundamental problems... but not going to discuss it here lol
I believe you can cast it while fungaled, it's just a matter of the range being an issue. I'd say a "solution" for HSM would be to allow ravens to target HSM onto the terran's own units. That way if you really want to land them, you can hsm a marine, stim it and run it in, and that way zerg will either have to fungal a single marine in place or run away (i believe if you kill a unit that has HSM on it, the HSM will travel to the death location and then explode, thus still making the kamikaze marine a good move)
|
On August 19 2012 18:30 Psychobabas wrote:
From ForGG's twitter:
"박지수 @ForGG1
fucking zerg imba..... "
And then you got random Zergs telling us TvZ is fine. rofl
holy shit omg wtf some pro complained about balance on twitter! this means i can use his statement as a fact for balance discussion
|
On August 19 2012 22:04 iky43210 wrote:
all race matchup is fine, its quite balance as of now.
If you want to bitch about the unparalleled balance between each stage of the game, then that's a different story. But looking it as a whole, balance difference between protoss, terran, and zerg is most likely not significant (and if it is, not enough for significance to matter)
i know blizz shares that opinion but i think its bullshit. no matchup should feel like on a timer. that terran win% would be beyond terrible if terrans stopped their timing attacks at min ~12 or so.
|
On August 19 2012 21:58 jdsowa wrote:
I've got an all Tier 1 bio army going into the late game and I'm losing games against opponents with mass Tier 3. This game is broken. Why can't Blizzard see that?
3/3 Marines with shield,stim and medivacs are not T1.
Having better "tier" army than your opponent should not guarantee you a free win.
The game is not balanced around "tiers" and the only race who truly has something close to tiers is Zerg.
|
On August 19 2012 21:58 jdsowa wrote:
I've got an all Tier 1 bio army going into the late game and I'm losing games against opponents with mass Tier 3. This game is broken. Why can't Blizzard see that?
Tanks medivacs 3/3 grades all Tier1, you heard it here first.
Terrans would built tier3 stuff if it wasnt gimmicky as shit.
|
Why don't terrans use the raven more? I find that Hunter Seeker Missile is the most annoying thing in the world to deal with as a zerg whether it be with a flock of corrupters or broodlords.
And don't say that infestors hard counter it, because that isn't true. You just have to be smart with it's usage.
|
I heard that if you EMP or Snipe the zergs infestors you just flat out roll his army. Terrans stuck inside that box of "How they are supposed to play."
|
Honestly as a Terran I don't really care about the Raven buff.
I mean, sure lategame Zerg is really hard to deal with but it's not what I think is the most important to fix. The creep change is IMO the more important change of this patch and this is why : what made ZvT the most interesting matchup pre-patch, was all the back and forth action all over the map during early and mid game.
Now with the queen buff, zergs can just skip this phase of the game and rush straight to lategame. Buffing terran lategame sure would fix the matchup as in "50% Balance" but it would just create boring turtle games - the same as we see in PvZ (and TvZ kinda also) - these are not interesting to watch nor to play.
And that's the real problem - Nowdays most non mirror matchups are boring turtlefests where Protoss and Zergs just rush to 200/200 from their highest tech.
Blizzard doesnt really need to nerf something, but there needs to be an incentive to do something else than turtle or 2base all-in in the early mid game, and this for all matchups. And if they fix this Terrans wont even need a lategame buff.
|
it doesnt address how the infestor still controls the matchup - at every stage of the game. The infestor is not just viable at every single stage of the game but a hard-counter to any and all army compositions for terran. I'm not saying that the unit is retarded OP or anything but it needs some tweaks. Most critical would be not rooting air I think. Im fine if it still does damage to air but it shouldnt root vikings to let corruption and transfuse just annihilate everything.
Edit: Oh, and I agree with the above. That queen buff made it insanely easy for zerg to rush to their late-game. I dont think anyone really knew just how powerful their late-game was until we started seeing so many TvZ match ups go there. An additional side effect of the queen buff is that they last even longer when you bring them up with your late-game army to transfuse. I really think they went overboard with that buff...
|
On August 19 2012 22:44 Ouija wrote:
I heard that if you EMP or Snipe the zergs infestors you just flat out roll his army. Terrans stuck inside that box of "How they are supposed to play."
Must reactor hellion expand every game, on every map, all the time....cannot use another build....every...
|
On August 19 2012 22:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:44 Ouija wrote:
I heard that if you EMP or Snipe the zergs infestors you just flat out roll his army. Terrans stuck inside that box of "How they are supposed to play." Must reactor hellion expand every game, on every map, all the time....cannot use another build....every...
yea making a unit more expensive than the one its supposed to counter, and also being absolutely useless in every other regard in that matchup, especially if you dont go bio. seems fair ...
|
How is avilo allowed to make balance-whine threads but no one else is?
|
On August 19 2012 22:44 Ouija wrote:
I heard that if you EMP or Snipe the zergs infestors you just flat out roll his army. Terrans stuck inside that box of "How they are supposed to play."
I heard that if you type IDDQD in chat all your marines gain +5 damage.
|
On August 19 2012 22:41 blug wrote:
Why don't terrans use the raven more? I find that Hunter Seeker Missile is the most annoying thing in the world to deal with as a zerg whether it be with a flock of corrupters or broodlords.
And don't say that infestors hard counter it, because that isn't true. You just have to be smart with it's usage.
Yes annoying is what HSM currently is. Raven casts HSM ,dies to corruptors while HSM puts 6 corruptors into 1/2 health.
Annoying? Yes. Cost effective? I doubt it.
|
Raven is the answer because ghost had to be nerfed..
You can't have a unit that is good against massive units like broodlords and ultralisks and then has nukes and EMP against infestors and HT's..
It was simply to much.. just watch MVP play.. ravens seems OP when he uses it..
Mech it up with early ravens that will help you cancel the creep advantage and spare your scans for the enemy base to check ou the hive timing or for mules! And then eventually go for the viking plus HMS..
Oh and btw the turret spamming with ravens can be very good also
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
