EPT[D] The raven buff does not address TvZ issues - Page 18
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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CaptainCrush
United States785 Posts
On August 19 2012 22:56 Corvi wrote: yea making a unit more expensive than the one its supposed to counter, and also being absolutely useless in every other regard in that matchup, especially if you dont go bio. seems fair ... Dont forget to add that since the radius got decreased, a ghost can EMP maybe 2 infestors at a time. It's not even close to a cost-efficient exchange, nor is it really a viable strat. That's why you dont see any terrans doing it. The koreans would ahave been all over it by now if it actually worked. | ||
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Alabast
United States65 Posts
Now I could be wrong..... but doesnt it have two other spells? The one that blocks projectile attacks and the other that gives you a turret to add to your firepower? You can build a turret wall to block movements paths. To cut off reinforcements. To harass so you dont have to split your army. You can use PDD to stop the corruptors. Raven is not only a HSM caster. I think if all the spells can be used than its a surprisingly strong unit. Use turrets to block lings or just help with broodlords. The turret I think is the key spell of the raven, not the HSM. | ||
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tsango
Australia214 Posts
Skyterran builds seem to ultimately be the answer, but lategame production facility demands are so different to midgame demands that it will always be a tough transition I think the other option could be fine tuning on nukes, those broodlord armys arent the speediest things out, if blizzard reduced (slightly) the time that it takes for a nuke to land that could have an interesting effect on the metagame | ||
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Ouija
United States129 Posts
On August 19 2012 22:58 CaptainCrush wrote: Dont forget to add that since the radius got decreased, a ghost can EMP maybe 2 infestors at a time. It's not even close to a cost-efficient exchange, nor is it really a viable strat. That's why you dont see any terrans doing it. The koreans would ahave been all over it by now if it actually worked. It is not viable to add ghost to your army late game like terran does vs Protoss?? But it is viable to add ravens??? 1 emp for 2 infestors seems cost effective for me considering that is now 200/300 resources spent that are rendered useless. I just watched KawaiiLight use ghosts vs infestors in a team league and utterly demolished the zerg right after. If you don't think it is worth it to try then just stop complaining and continue to lose all your TvZ's. Ghost counter infestors whether you like it or not it is up to you to use them. More expensive? Gas is a way more valuable resource in the late game...Don't you have like 7 mules? 200 minerals seems tough to come by. | ||
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IamMagic
Canada53 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
I've tried ghosts quite a bit in my lategame and I think they are mostly rubbish. They are very bad at dealing with big infestor counts even if they cloak and get in there, and nukes are very random, sometimes amazing usually pointless. Ghosts can be really good if one of two things can occur 1) a splash of emp's .3 seconds before a zerg has to fungal and he can't disengage his army without just getting murdered 2) constant nuke harass as part of a constant aggression strategy, keeping the zergs attention spread and any drone kills relevant (I find if both players are turtling successful nukes are pointless. You killed 25 drones? Big deal the zerg can reproduce that with his huge mineral bank in like 10 seconds). | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On August 19 2012 22:58 CaptainCrush wrote: Dont forget to add that since the radius got decreased, a ghost can EMP maybe 2 infestors at a time. This is just wrong. Are they very well split and you're not considering sniping three+ times instead? An accurate EMP blast hitting a crowd of infestors should hit 2 as a bare minimum. Whether that single, very energy-efficient expenditure of a petty 75 energy for up to 100 energy per target hit will be enough to deal with the entire ball is another matter, but then perhaps you should be prepared to launch multiple and practise your targetting. -_- | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 19 2012 22:58 CaptainCrush wrote: Dont forget to add that since the radius got decreased, a ghost can EMP maybe 2 infestors at a time. It's not even close to a cost-efficient exchange, nor is it really a viable strat. That's why you dont see any terrans doing it. The koreans would ahave been all over it by now if it actually worked. EMP does not need to completely engulf the unit to hit and drain energy. This is the reason why when the radius was so huge, protoss would get roll after 2 or 3 emp blanketed their army. The main reason why ghosts are hard to use late game has more to do with the zerglings and broodlings that lead the charge of the final push. Since the infestors are guarding the Broodlord, they are not near the front line, forcing the terran to use his ghosts from a no-mans land which is filled with path blocking melee units. Now most people will say that using "ghost drops" would be viable. Protoss have learned that any form of combat drop with spell casters is very risky. SC2 late game if filled with long range air units that can quickly focus down a drop ship filled with casters. This is why korean players have started to use the raven to combat the infestors. Although it is a flying unit, HSM fires instantly and there is no cumbersome drop animation they need to wait through before spell casting. So don't blame terrans for not using ghost against the death ball. Protoss have the same problem and we don't use rely on HT vs infestors to turn the tide. | ||
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Anomi
Sweden149 Posts
As the game functions right now the problem with fungal It’s not about that the ability itself but the advantage being to advance thru one tech tree without taking any major risk. What we have to remember fungal growth is one of the ability that have changed the most since the launch of sc2. The changes was done initially done to give zerg a better response to handling Protoss armored units. I think everyone agrees on that handling allot of the late game protoss composition without fungals would be impossible. The problem here is that the fungal when first presented had a low damage output and a long rotting effect(it was also a missile attack if remember it correctly). When increasing the damage to handle protoss ground units more effectively it lead to a different problem that is present now. This is also why this kind of big changes on abilities should not be done often as the effect of the changes can lead to different problems in the future. The problem that has occurred is the fugal effectives off handling air units. I think people agree on that choosing different unit composition should lead to different advantages and disadvantages. One unit should not be the answer to everything. The following logic was presented from blizzard when nerfing ghost: “Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic We felt the Snipe ability was countering zerg broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well. Especially at the pro level, we were seeing a lot of games where terran players were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts to counter most of the options zerg players had at their disposal. While we like to see creative and innovative use of units, we felt that in this case Snipe was becoming too effective against zerg’s most expensive units. When adjusting the ability, we tried to settle on a number that would allow using Snipe to remain a viable tactic, though not as powerful as it is now. With this change, brood lords will fall in ten casts of Snipe rather than six (taking into account health regeneration), while an ultralisk will die in 21 casts, up from 11. This also significantly increases the number of ghosts and stockpiled energy needed to pull this tactic off, which we feel confident about because, previously, terran players rarely needed to consider the energy on their ghosts units. “ (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4448820/Situation_Report_Patch_143-2_10_2012) The exact logic and be applied to fungal growth. Infesters are able to counter most options every other race can present. Previously a well executed air attack from protoss could force hydras if the zerg couldn’t handel it with spore crawlers and queens. Blizzard further patched the spore crawlers rooting time to make it easier for zergs. After the infester changed combined with people figuring out the effectiveness off fungal u could now bypass hydras completely without any problems at all. U end up going to the infesters tech which u would have gone for anyway. The opponent is no longer able to force u do adjust your play with his air play and can comfortably play as u wanted to do . Instead it should be choice of going hydras or doing a good defend with queens and spores. IF u wish to skip hydras/coroupters and take the risk to defend air only with queens and spores u should be rewarded with being able to go infesters. Currently there is no risk att all since the infesters with fungal combined with infested terran counters air units. Fungal growth is not game breaking with any means or overpowered but it does give a unfair advantage to zerg . I believe infesters effectives against air units should be addressed . There should be a bigger risk of going infesters for zerg since the other lair tech choices presents risk factors that seem to be lacking in the infesters. This problem because more apparent in late game where the fungal ability is used to both shut down the ground and air army. Making u rely less on your corrupters. Infested terran used to supplement the lack of attacking units witch allows u to have a higher supply of infesters. This is my take on it and its only an opinion and by no means facts. I believe people have different opinions in this subject and its more beneficial to present them that trashing down other people opinions. | ||
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naggerNZ
New Zealand708 Posts
There's no point even responding to your arguments because they're all loaded with the assumption that Vikings don't exist. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On August 19 2012 22:57 Elvin wrote: Yes annoying is what HSM currently is. Raven casts HSM ,dies to corruptors while HSM puts 6 corruptors into 1/2 health. Annoying? Yes. Cost effective? I doubt it. So, by your logic, you can trade 2 Ravens for 6 Corruptors? Yes, it is extremely cost efficient. Trading 200/400 for 900/600 is more than cost efficient... | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 19 2012 23:47 Ramiz1989 wrote: So, by your logic, you can trade 2 Ravens for 6 Corruptors? Yes, it is extremely cost efficient. Trading 200/400 for 900/600 is more than cost efficient... And target infestors with HSM, not corruptors. They are the back bone of the army and the unit you need to kill. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 19 2012 22:08 mahO wrote: Because they were tyrannical on T3 units, and about the queen buff it's hilarious how all you terrans jumped on it so you could bitch about it. It cancels an abuse of helions being too annoying / restricting early game, END OF STORY, queens still cost 150, they still are long to build, and they still have shitty damage. Many zergs didnt even change their playstyle / queen number after the patch. This is ridiculous, when you had the most imbalanced units and features you were ok with it, but when Blizzard takes it in the right direction, which is diversifying the possibilities in this match up, you just yell at imbalance. Yes, terrans can macro, and yes, there is other way to prevent a zerg from droning. Creep? Use your freaking ravens, for so fucking long I've seen so many terrans skipping ravens lategame, "but it's so fragile" oh because infestors arent? Ghost's emp is still viable against clumped up infestors, and even the best zergs are still fragile on their infestors positioning, 2 emps / 8 snipes, and you cancel / kill 600+ worth of gas, but hey, you really cant spend 200 on a raven, it's too fragile... It's not an harass unit, seeker missile / pdd is so underrated against broodlord armies it's hilarious to see that 95% of terran dont even try experimenting with their own race for years now, but they much prefer to whine and whine on TL / bnet about it. Terran is fine, you just got lazy (and many pros too) getting used to play simplified builds that you trained over and over. You didnt toy around with your race like Protoss or Zergs did, and like Artosis said, this patch is good, disregarding balance, because it will force terrans to move their ass and finally try new things. Helion contains were completely fair because a Z can exponentially grow much faster than a Terran can so it's not always necessary to be a base ahead while droning. The win percentages during that time period after the Ghost Nerf completely support this, there's no way around it. It was balanced. Everyone including high level pros like DRG agreed that it was completely fine. Now between the Queen Buff and the OL buff, you cannot punish Z's for taking a third. It is impossible. You can only punish them only if they are excessively greedy to the point it is stupid. And I love this talk about how Ghosts are suppose to counter Infestors. Please try walking through that wall of fucking Broodlords that are standing in front of them and see what happens. You can get 3 Infestors maybe if you get a perfect EMP while they are literally standing on top of each others asses. And that's if you manage to somehow get past the long range Blords + Overseers that they will have once he sees you have Ghosts. If you believe that Ghosts are the answer to TvZ late game along with Ravens you really need a wake up call. And Terran didn't try different builds? Zerg toyed with their race? You understand that Zerg has been utilizing the same openings and roughly the same timings and unit compositions since the FUCKING BETA. Please don't be stupid. Terran has utilized mech, speed reapers, mass Ravens (yes, Mass Ravens), and all other sorts of things. And what happened? Most of the time it got nerfed. Seeker Missile in beta was nerfed because of "team games" and a whole shitload of Zerg whine when Idra lost ALL of his mutas to Seeker Missiles (this was when Seeker Missile was at the Fusion Core mind you). Speed Reapers got nerfed even when Z's were adapting to it after the first nerf (look at the win percentages, it was nowhere near 60/40, it was like 55/45 on TERRIBLE maps for Z), etc. Every time Terran has tried something new, Blizzard nerfs it into the ground. Thors? No you can't use them. Tanks? We don't like Tanks (even though there are 500 anti-tank options in the game). Mech in general? N0pe. BC rushes (A legit opening vs P back then), nope, we don't want that shit happening. Ghosts? We'll nerf it purely off of one game where Nestea misplayed a late game situation terribly. Blue Flame Helion timings? Oh, we'll nerf it based on ONE tournament and a whole lot of Z whine. Alot of this bullshit has occurred because people on all three sides have whined over stupid shit, rather than adapting. That being said, Terran and Protoss players have adapted a hell of alot more than Z players; they didn't get massive unit face lifts to IMPROVE their race like you got with the Infestor. They didn't get build times on a legitimately pretty good unit in the Ultra late game. They didn't get free buffs on their scouting units, nor did they get an absolutely ridiculous buff to a virtual free defense unit now. On August 19 2012 23:47 naggerNZ wrote: The thing I like about Avilo balance whine is all the arguments are premised on deep imbalance to begin with. This isn't "Why Ravens aren't viable as the staple of a lategame TvZ composition", it's "We all agree that TvZ is super imbalanced and this is why Ravens won't fix it". There's no point even responding to your arguments because they're all loaded with the assumption that Vikings don't exist. Vikings do exist. And if you make one mistake the Z chain fungals them all to death and you auto lose the game. On August 20 2012 00:02 Plansix wrote: And target infestors with HSM, not corruptors. They are the back bone of the army and the unit you need to kill. Any decent Masters Z will keep his Infestors well behind his Blord/Corrupter army before you actually engage. When he sees the Ravens move up he will FG them instantly and they will pretty much flat out die before they can Seeker Missile. You are much better off using PDD premptively and taking out the Corrupters with Vikings/Thors. This is all assuming you aren't flat out dying to any 2/3 base variation baneling busts that can and will likely kill you since you're playing in the dark and the Z has all the map control/vision in the world in this particular match-up. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 19 2012 18:21 FinalForm wrote: Please just rid of those damn free overlord parking spots that see Every unit that enters and leaves your base. Those were totally unnecessary. Not quite the thread for this, but there isnt any map with "pillars" anymore where you can put a siege tank on top of. These things dont really matter for the Raven since it has to get into range 6 to "fire ze missiles" ... and since you cant do both apply a Point Defense Drone (100 energy) AND fire a Seeker Missile (125 energy) they dont really provide good hiding spots for Ravens. To make the Raven acceptable two changes are needed IMO: 1. Seeker Missile cast range increased to 9 or more (same as Fungal Growth and Psi Storm) and 2. make any mechanical units receive only half damage from feedback (Why should a bunch of wires and energy conductors in a machine be affected by a psionic ability anyways?). Ravens die too easily and for their cost they dont deal enough damage. Consequently they need a little tweaking ... just like the Carrier. | ||
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killy666
France204 Posts
The discussion is a bit narrow minded if you allow me. All i can see is 1/ We have issues with Zerg Hive Tech deathball 2/ We used to deal with it with ghosts but can't do that as effectively anymore 3/ We're looking for a cast that kills the whole army in HSM much like snipe used to 4/ It doesn't do the trick so we are here discussing the matter. I think a lot of the persons here are focusing a bit too much on HSM to deal with it. What if Ravens weren't the answer through HSM ? what if the buff to ravens was to prioritize ravens in the midgame to manage zerg creep spread? Perhaps people are reading a bit too much in Blizzard's various nerfs and buff, to the point they focus too much on them and forget that other unit compositions and build could perhaps be tried to counter that deathball. Ravens are the least used caster in the game, but is it because they are that bad, or is it because are trying to use it to another purpose than the one that they were originally intended to? | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
OP is essentially saying TvZ sucks because of fungal. So get ghosts. Ravens deal with broods, infestors, and corruptors quite admirably if you can have them on the flank of your vikings - look at MVP's play for an example. Ravens are also pretty tough. If they get fungal'd, back off. Your bio has stim, ultras and broods are slow. I do agree that the research time of raven upgrades should be reduced. You need a lot of starports, tech labs, and upgrades before you can even build ravens for them to be effective. Ghosts can EMP and snipe infestors, and while snipe has been nerfed it is still quite good against brood lords and pre-max upgraded Ultras. The problem, in my eyes, lies in that Zerg can techswitch so quickly Terran can't have enough of one unit to deal with it. Ultras - need marauders. Broods - need vikings and ravens. Infestors - need ghosts. Terrans have been asking how to spend their gas in late game, so I don't think cost is thaaaaaat much of an issue. But production certainly is, just due to how the mechanics work. The solution is to not sit back and allow the Zerg to get to this stage where they can tech-switch at will and exploit Terran's production style. It's to put them on the back foot, be aggressive, constantly drop and generally be a nuisance, reduce their income, and create a situation where they simply don't have the bank to tech switch constantly. | ||
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blug
Australia623 Posts
On August 19 2012 23:37 iaguz wrote: Ghosts were THE unit a few patches ago because snipe > Zerg. It was that simple. They had other abilities but they were just the tasty sides to the fucking 700 gm medium rare steak that was snipe. I've tried ghosts quite a bit in my lategame and I think they are mostly rubbish. They are very bad at dealing with big infestor counts even if they cloak and get in there, and nukes are very random, sometimes amazing usually pointless. Ghosts can be really good if one of two things can occur 1) a splash of emp's .3 seconds before a zerg has to fungal and he can't disengage his army without just getting murdered 2) constant nuke harass as part of a constant aggression strategy, keeping the zergs attention spread and any drone kills relevant (I find if both players are turtling successful nukes are pointless. You killed 25 drones? Big deal the zerg can reproduce that with his huge mineral bank in like 10 seconds). Was trying to remember where I've heard of your name... You're that guy everyone calls Gimly yeah? I was at WCS cheering you on xD | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 20 2012 00:29 Larkin wrote: Ghosts can EMP and snipe infestors, ... not with the vision advantage which Zerg has from Overlords everywhere and creep spread. Do remember that cloak gets nerfed in HotS to have a fixed duration with a cooldown. You dont have it available whenever you want (and the energy is there) AND you need several snipes for an Infestor, but one Fungal Growth will reveal the whole pack of Ghosts and keep them in place to be killed by Zerglings. So: - EMP: deals no direct damage and prevents damage if hit correctly - Fungal Growth: deals damage, locks down AND reveals cloaked units So please dont start saying "but you can EMP" ... only one or two Fungal Growths will be the death of the Ghosts due to revealing them and locking them down, while an EMP still lets you withdraw your Infestors ... and since the Zerg is usually the more mobile army that wont be a problem. | ||
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