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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 20 2012 01:34 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:33 blug wrote:On August 20 2012 01:31 Azzur wrote:
Absolutely totally agree - I saw at IEM Cologne Bomber vs Violet set1. The whole game evolved on the one money fungal which killed all the expensive vikings. I don't understand how a spell can be so OP to do that. If you think about it, Blizzard knew about the power of fungals that they wanted to remove it's ability to affect air units - but zerg qq reverted the change.
Zergs have fungals and protoss have HTs - terran doesn't have a easy kill spell. Errr... Hunter Seeker Missile eats broodlords/corrupters. Most underused ability in the game. MVP being a much better player than the one dimensional zerg players at IEM doesn't prove the viability of the ravens.
That's just a plain ignorant statement. Nerchio is one of the best zergs in the world.
The very presence of Seeker missile will force a reaction from the zerg which could be splitting broodlords however... Splitting slow units costs ALOT of dps time.
Also, if you think these players are so bad then why don't you try seeker missile on ladder against these one dimensional zergs. By your logic the zergs that are vsing MVP are the best of the one dimensional zergs, so the ones you vs should be really easy.
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The problem of most Terran players in my opinion is that they refuse to change their mindset.
They go for "old strategies" - bio, tank marine, mech, variations of the mentioned, and drill with it until the game is decided by battle. Very rarely and very few players ever think about transitioning to starport or they do after the game has already been decided. They have little experience in these situations and fail most of the time - thats normal, dont cry about it. It takes practice to be good at it. There are already a few players that are good at it but majority are shouting about imbalance.
MVP just showed today that it is doable vs Vortix and Nerchio. It would take some months for the rest of the terrans to learn.
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All of the information you wrote is true but has already been said for months. The problem is Blizzard doesn't real TL or anywhere else for that matter to decide on how to balance things. They have 2 guys making their own decisions, largely centered on making the game more "fun" and "fresh" so more people buy the games, rather than balancing it properly.
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Save for your opponent going only high templar, is there ever a time where it's bad to have infestors?
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MVP with 4 GSL titles stomping mediocre foreigners.
In other news, china produces rice.
@blug: seeker missiles only cost a 200 gas unit and then take 3 minutes to build up, nope, no window there to get something done.
On August 20 2012 01:41 Scila wrote:
All of the information you wrote is true but has already been said for months. The problem is Blizzard doesn't real TL or anywhere else for that matter to decide on how to balance things. They have 2 guys making their own decisions, largely centered on making the game more "fun" and "fresh" so more people buy the games, rather than balancing it properly.
Not mutually exclusive with competitive balance
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On August 20 2012 01:39 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:34 Azzur wrote:On August 20 2012 01:33 blug wrote:On August 20 2012 01:31 Azzur wrote:
Absolutely totally agree - I saw at IEM Cologne Bomber vs Violet set1. The whole game evolved on the one money fungal which killed all the expensive vikings. I don't understand how a spell can be so OP to do that. If you think about it, Blizzard knew about the power of fungals that they wanted to remove it's ability to affect air units - but zerg qq reverted the change.
Zergs have fungals and protoss have HTs - terran doesn't have a easy kill spell. Errr... Hunter Seeker Missile eats broodlords/corrupters. Most underused ability in the game. MVP being a much better player than the one dimensional zerg players at IEM doesn't prove the viability of the ravens. That's just a plain ignorant statement. Nerchio is one of the best zergs in the world. The very presence of Seeker missile will force a reaction from the zerg which could be splitting broodlords however... Splitting slow units costs ALOT of dps time.
Nerchio is one of the best zergs? Why doesn't he go to GSL and get into Code S then? Unless "one of the best" is like top 10, or top 25, or maybe even top 25, which is still lower than MVP being one of the best terrans.
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Did you seriously make this post because of losing to Alkresh? He didn't even use infestors that game and you lost, so infestors aren't the issue- maybe you just aren't playing the matchup properly.
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On August 20 2012 01:39 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:34 Azzur wrote:On August 20 2012 01:33 blug wrote:On August 20 2012 01:31 Azzur wrote:
Absolutely totally agree - I saw at IEM Cologne Bomber vs Violet set1. The whole game evolved on the one money fungal which killed all the expensive vikings. I don't understand how a spell can be so OP to do that. If you think about it, Blizzard knew about the power of fungals that they wanted to remove it's ability to affect air units - but zerg qq reverted the change.
Zergs have fungals and protoss have HTs - terran doesn't have a easy kill spell. Errr... Hunter Seeker Missile eats broodlords/corrupters. Most underused ability in the game. MVP being a much better player than the one dimensional zerg players at IEM doesn't prove the viability of the ravens. That's just a plain ignorant statement. Nerchio is one of the best zergs in the world. The very presence of Seeker missile will force a reaction from the zerg which could be splitting broodlords however... Splitting slow units costs ALOT of dps time. Also, if you think these players are so bad then why don't you try seeker missile on ladder against these one dimensional zergs. By your logic the zergs that are vsing MVP are the best of the one dimensional zergs, so the ones you vs should be really easy.
DRG, Symbol, Leenox, Curious, Life, Coca, Sniper, Hyun, and stephano are the zergs I would consider at the very top tier of zerg players. Nerchio is a very good zerg player. Out of non-koreans, he should be easily considered top 3. But he is not on the same level of MVP. This goes to everyone for the last few comments: MVP is a much better player than Nerchio. Nerchio is a very good player, but MVP is a significantly better player than Nerchio. The finals cannot be used to show whether or not ravens are the greatest unit ever. The games can hint that ravens might be viable, but MVP is a better player.
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Raven speed dosn't adress TvZ issues, couse there aren't any issues in that matchup at this moment.
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Mvp would like a word with you Avilo.
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I hope everyone watched MVP today
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Why is everyone jumping on the MVP bandwagon? He's beating Zergs that are a level below himself. pretty sure he could use any number of strats/unit comps to beat those guys...
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On August 20 2012 01:54 xrapture wrote:
Mvp would like a word with you Avilo.
;D came here to see if this someone had already been here, was not disapointed
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On August 20 2012 01:54 Little-Chimp wrote:
I hope everyone watched MVP today
MVP won more because of insane macro/upgrades and relentlessly counter dropping, than the occasional Seeker missiles going off. In most of the games in the final, he had basically won by that point in time anyway. Or at least the games very very much in his grasp and Seeker missiles weren't winning battles for him.
So yeah, informative games to watch for terran potential as a whole, but for Ravens, not so much.
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Guys, for the people who are saying that MVP would like a word, and referencing MVP's play as a counter argument to avilo... you do realize that its proving what he is saying, right?
Did you even read the OP?
Changing ravens would make them stronger... MvP thinks they are strong enough already. Avilo thinks that changing the raven will do nothing to address the TvZ issues currently.
I actually see no links between any of those points besides that both think the current ravens are preferable over the new change... (being that a change to make them stronger will make them used)
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On August 20 2012 01:57 Swift118 wrote:
Why is everyone jumping on the MVP bandwagon? He's beating Zergs that are a level below himself. pretty sure he could use any number of strats/unit comps to beat those guys...
Well, because the other day people were whining, because some midclass, jetlaged Korean Code A and Code S Terrans were losing to the European Elite playing at home in some very close games, that could have gone either way.
And now the stupid quit-pro-quo "I just saw tournament X" mentality of TL is flipping the other way around.
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On August 20 2012 01:50 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:39 blug wrote:On August 20 2012 01:34 Azzur wrote:On August 20 2012 01:33 blug wrote:On August 20 2012 01:31 Azzur wrote:
Absolutely totally agree - I saw at IEM Cologne Bomber vs Violet set1. The whole game evolved on the one money fungal which killed all the expensive vikings. I don't understand how a spell can be so OP to do that. If you think about it, Blizzard knew about the power of fungals that they wanted to remove it's ability to affect air units - but zerg qq reverted the change.
Zergs have fungals and protoss have HTs - terran doesn't have a easy kill spell. Errr... Hunter Seeker Missile eats broodlords/corrupters. Most underused ability in the game. MVP being a much better player than the one dimensional zerg players at IEM doesn't prove the viability of the ravens. That's just a plain ignorant statement. Nerchio is one of the best zergs in the world. The very presence of Seeker missile will force a reaction from the zerg which could be splitting broodlords however... Splitting slow units costs ALOT of dps time. Also, if you think these players are so bad then why don't you try seeker missile on ladder against these one dimensional zergs. By your logic the zergs that are vsing MVP are the best of the one dimensional zergs, so the ones you vs should be really easy. DRG, Symbol, Leenox, Curious, Life, Coca, Sniper, Hyun, and stephano are the zergs I would consider at the very top tier of zerg players. Nerchio is a very good zerg player. Out of non-koreans, he should be easily considered top 3. But he is not on the same level of MVP. This goes to everyone for the last few comments: MVP is a much better player than Nerchio. Nerchio is a very good player, but MVP is a significantly better player than Nerchio. The finals cannot be used to show whether or not ravens are the greatest unit ever. The games can hint that ravens might be viable, but MVP is a better player.
Ok, we'll disregard all of Taejas seeker missile usage as well.
We'll also disregard Violets participation in the tournament, and I'm quite shocked you didn't put him in the list since he is one of the most solid zergs in the world.
You talk as if people who are in GSL are the best of the best, but that simply isn't true. A lot of Korean players in the GSL are equivalent to foreign players. Nerchio I would consider a tier below MVP, however that doesn't mean MVP isn't trying his little heart out for the victories. I don't really see how a top tier zerg would of done anything different with his broodlord placement besides a possible split... however that is unviable to an extent due to how slow broodlords are.
Why are terrans trying to run away from ravens? If MVP can use them against these "low tier" players then surely seeker missiles would work better in everybody's game on these forums. Unless you guys are all GSL champions as well.
Anyways, no more arguing because it's impossible to have a rational argument with terrans that have the evidence right there in front of their faces. Seeker Missile is a great ability and in late game can rape face.
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my two cents. maps are gettting too big
i think the most overlooked factor is not necessarily the unit changes that have occured since the game came out, but rather the changes in the map size that blizzard puts on ladder. with protoss warp, and zerg creep, terran just doesn't matchup as well on larger maps. it also encourages turtling, not as entertaining to watch.
it would be nice to see a few smaller maps back in the pool. not steppes size, that was just silly, but xel'naga cavernesque maps.
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There is always an excuse at hand. Terran is competing and winning in the biggest tournaments in the world. We don't feel bad for you at all.
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I believe the way to fix late game TvZ is to simply put a timer on HSM so raven can use HSM as soon as they pop, and to prevent players from using HSM and PDD at the same time you could put a lock on PDD if HSM is used for a certain amount of time.
No, it wont fix it completely due to the fungal still being left but as long as you use the map to your advantage, have few tanks to target infestors and spread your raven in a big arc along with vikings you should be able to get few HSM to hit the broods/corrupters.
Forgot to add, its quite funny how the only foreigners doing good and all the new upcoming players are zergs, and there are no foreigner terran at any tournament doing even decently lately. On top of that why the tournaments have few terrans doing okey lately is because they are koreans and barely any korean zerg/protosses go to foreign tournaments, especially zergs.
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EPT
