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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
This was just one tournament, so isn't very good for statistics etc, but I'd like to say a few things;
Nerchio and the other zergs MVP beat ARE good at the game, and so the matches were difficult for MVP.
I think more importantly, MVP would not use ravens lategame if he had not practiced it. With his IM zerg practice partners (Nestea etc, some pretty strong zergs in there), and found that it worked well for him.
This was done BEFORE the patch which, while it doesn't directly address some issues with ravens, it IS a buff to ravens. (And a nerf to creep spread thrown in too).
MVP showed that you can safely play through the long ROI time of the raven, which is something we should already kind of know, since zerg armies pre-BL infestor generally can lose to a much lower supply terran army anyway, so therefore a terran can choose to transition around when a zerg starts hive, and be safe from attacks until the Gspire finishes. By then he will hopefully have some ravens with seeker missile ready, and can still do some of the hellion runbys//marine marauder drops that we see being so devastating against the immobile zerg army.
Terrans were beating the zerg lategame army with higher mobility tactics before MVP showed raven use, and ravens are just an example of a tool where you can engage the zerg's doom army after initially hurting his econ with the drops.
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Terran wins another championship, everyone still bitches throwing out a multitude of excuses as to why that occured. Surprise surprise surprise.
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On August 20 2012 02:05 Phays wrote:
I believe the way to fix lategame TvZ is to simply put a timer on HSM so raven can use HSM as soon as they pop,
Really good idea i thought about that to. Better that kind of buff then speed witch dont even matter broodlords are slow ravens are slow. Just to edit speed does matter later but its not as big as a hsm buff i think
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On August 20 2012 01:36 ROOTFayth wrote:
the problem isn't the raven
the problem is avilo
As has been the case since SC2 was even in beta
Still fun to have a discussion anyway.
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On August 20 2012 02:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Terran wins another championship, everyone still bitches throwing out a multitude of excuses as to why that occured. Surprise surprise surprise.
Avilo is bad and should feel bad for balance whining every chance he gets.
The reason he loses is not because of percieved imbalances -- he loses because he is bad just like Idra said.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 20 2012 01:54 Little-Chimp wrote:
I hope everyone watched MVP today
Stupid posts like this should be instantly banned.
MVP win shows nothing about state of TvZ.
Fruitdealer won GSL 1. Nestea won GSL 2. And all zergs were crying rivers at that moment. Double standards and lack of common sense in posts like these are just mind blowing.
Also, MVP's Ravens play worked because:
1) Zerg's super passive style allowed MVP split the map.
2) He got insane lead by multi-tasking (Drops/Run-bys).
3) There was zero micro from zerg's side:
Trying to break fortified tank lines.
Zero flanks.
Zero splitting.
Sends whole army in a line into terran's ball.
Leaves no energy infestors to chill and die.
Sends broodlords into most stupid locations without guard and usually loses
So Ravens only worked because opponents played/responded a lot worse, not because they are a great late game TvZ unit.
Nerchio and Vortix are great players but putting them at the level of MVP is just ignorant.
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While the Raven buff may not address the main TvZ issues, it is a start and Blizzard realizes that a change must be made.
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Whats the range on hsm? I saw mvp he was like driving the ravens really close when they fired seemed risky.
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On August 20 2012 02:07 Khazroul wrote:
This was just one tournament, so isn't very good for statistics etc, but I'd like to say a few things;
Nerchio and the other zergs MVP beat ARE good at the game, and so the matches were difficult for MVP.
I think more importantly, MVP would not use ravens lategame if he had not practiced it. With his IM zerg practice partners (Nestea etc, some pretty strong zergs in there), and found that it worked well for him.
This was done BEFORE the patch which, while it doesn't directly address some issues with ravens, it IS a buff to ravens. (And a nerf to creep spread thrown in too).
MVP showed that you can safely play through the long ROI time of the raven, which is something we should already kind of know, since zerg armies pre-BL infestor generally can lose to a much lower supply terran army anyway, so therefore a terran can choose to transition around when a zerg starts hive, and be safe from attacks until the Gspire finishes. By then he will hopefully have some ravens with seeker missile ready, and can still do some of the hellion runbys//marine marauder drops that we see being so devastating against the immobile zerg army.
Terrans were beating the zerg lategame army with higher mobility tactics before MVP showed raven use, and ravens are just an example of a tool where you can engage the zerg's doom army after initially hurting his econ with the drops.
To be honest, I don't think Nerchio played his best in the series. Game 1 defense was brilliant. Truly brilliant, but game 2 losing 70 drones is inexcusable as a pro player. This isn't the beta anymore and hellion run-bys are hardly new.
The same with other games where nerchio lost a ton.
But that's not to say that MVP didnt play flawlessly because he did. what I am saying is if they both played flawlessly, I think Nerchio wins even if he is much worse of a player. However, when MVP plays flawlessly and Nerchio plays considerably worse, it's a predictable outcome.
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not 100% sure but I think Terran players won the last 4 offline events (Taeja's two tourney wins, Kas won the eastern Euro tournament with Korean participants and now MVP won IEM). I think these successes mean that eventual issues in in TvZ are atleast largely exagerated.
In my lowbob opinion, I do not see issues at all if I watch tournament play, there was only a period of Terrans adjusting to Zerg's multiqueen play postpatch.
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On August 20 2012 02:20 AngryMag wrote:
not 100% sure but I think Terran players won the last 4 offline events (Taeja's two tourney wins, Kas won the eastern Euro tournament with Korean participants and now MVP won IEM). I think these successes mean that eventual issues in in TvZ are atleast largely exagerated.
In my lowbob opinion, I do not see issues at all if I watch tournament play, there was only a period of Terrans adjusting to Zerg's multiqueen play postpatch.
Yes but have you looked at how many Terrans have won in the last 200 tournaments? Ok, so they won a few recent tournaments, but that is dwarfed by the results of many, many before it.
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+1 range to HSM would be so nice with the speed+accerleration buff.
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On August 20 2012 02:20 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:07 Khazroul wrote:
This was just one tournament, so isn't very good for statistics etc, but I'd like to say a few things;
Nerchio and the other zergs MVP beat ARE good at the game, and so the matches were difficult for MVP.
I think more importantly, MVP would not use ravens lategame if he had not practiced it. With his IM zerg practice partners (Nestea etc, some pretty strong zergs in there), and found that it worked well for him.
This was done BEFORE the patch which, while it doesn't directly address some issues with ravens, it IS a buff to ravens. (And a nerf to creep spread thrown in too).
MVP showed that you can safely play through the long ROI time of the raven, which is something we should already kind of know, since zerg armies pre-BL infestor generally can lose to a much lower supply terran army anyway, so therefore a terran can choose to transition around when a zerg starts hive, and be safe from attacks until the Gspire finishes. By then he will hopefully have some ravens with seeker missile ready, and can still do some of the hellion runbys//marine marauder drops that we see being so devastating against the immobile zerg army.
Terrans were beating the zerg lategame army with higher mobility tactics before MVP showed raven use, and ravens are just an example of a tool where you can engage the zerg's doom army after initially hurting his econ with the drops. To be honest, I don't think Nerchio played his best in the series. Game 1 defense was brilliant. Truly brilliant, but game 2 losing 70 drones is inexcusable as a pro player. This isn't the beta anymore and hellion run-bys are hardly new. The same with other games where nerchio lost a ton. But that's not to say that MVP didnt play flawlessly because he did. what I am saying is if they both played flawlessly, I think Nerchio wins even if he is much worse of a player. However, when MVP plays flawlessly and Nerchio plays considerably worse, it's a predictable outcome.
Guess what? ALL pro players lose lots of workers, it happens.
Proof avilo fanboy trolls shouldn't be balance whining so much.
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On August 20 2012 02:21 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:20 AngryMag wrote:
not 100% sure but I think Terran players won the last 4 offline events (Taeja's two tourney wins, Kas won the eastern Euro tournament with Korean participants and now MVP won IEM). I think these successes mean that eventual issues in in TvZ are atleast largely exagerated.
In my lowbob opinion, I do not see issues at all if I watch tournament play, there was only a period of Terrans adjusting to Zerg's multiqueen play postpatch. Yes but have you looked at how many Terrans have won in the last 200 tournaments? Ok, so they won a few recent tournaments, but that is dwarfed by the results of many, many before it.
... Are you joking? Why do people say such stupid shit without ever looking into anything.
http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/Starcraft-II/1474/Talking-Starcraft-2-Prize-Money-Part-1/
Oh hey, an article which proves you're an idiot, who'd of thought.
"On the quarterly graph we can see that Terran has spent almost the entire duration of competitive Starcraft 2 at the top of the earnings race between the three races, dropping only the 1st Quarter to Zerg (which was when Fruitdealer won his whopping GSL prize). "
Time to have a reality check and stop posting here, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
"Terran : $1,362,778.00
Zerg : $927,790.00
Protoss : $740,394.00"
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MVP beat alot of VERY good zerg players in IEM, everyone really should go watch those replays with an open mind. I know I am.
I know one event alone doesn't mean much, but they start to add up, Taeja has pretty much been dominating lately so this just adds to the recent Terran win list.
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On August 20 2012 02:21 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:20 AngryMag wrote:
not 100% sure but I think Terran players won the last 4 offline events (Taeja's two tourney wins, Kas won the eastern Euro tournament with Korean participants and now MVP won IEM). I think these successes mean that eventual issues in in TvZ are atleast largely exagerated.
In my lowbob opinion, I do not see issues at all if I watch tournament play, there was only a period of Terrans adjusting to Zerg's multiqueen play postpatch. Yes but have you looked at how many Terrans have won in the last 200 tournaments? Ok, so they won a few recent tournaments, but that is dwarfed by the results of many, many before it.
The discussion is about the balance right now, which is determined by the latest events.
And your arguement is just wrong:
Premier Tournaments this year: 21
Terran wins: 11
other races wins: 10
Premier Tournemts last year: 40
Terran wins: 20
other races wins: 20
With 3races, Terran has won >50% of the biggest tournaments in the last one and a half year. Where have you been when you think they are not winning enough tournaments?
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On August 20 2012 02:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:21 zmansman17 wrote:On August 20 2012 02:20 AngryMag wrote:
not 100% sure but I think Terran players won the last 4 offline events (Taeja's two tourney wins, Kas won the eastern Euro tournament with Korean participants and now MVP won IEM). I think these successes mean that eventual issues in in TvZ are atleast largely exagerated.
In my lowbob opinion, I do not see issues at all if I watch tournament play, there was only a period of Terrans adjusting to Zerg's multiqueen play postpatch. Yes but have you looked at how many Terrans have won in the last 200 tournaments? Ok, so they won a few recent tournaments, but that is dwarfed by the results of many, many before it. ... Are you joking? Why do people say such stupid shit without ever looking into anything. http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/Starcraft-II/1474/Talking-Starcraft-2-Prize-Money-Part-1/ Oh hey, an article which proves you're an idiot, who'd of thought. "On the quarterly graph we can see that Terran has spent almost the entire duration of competitive Starcraft 2 at the top of the earnings race between the three races, dropping only the 1st Quarter to Zerg (which was when Fruitdealer won his whopping GSL prize). " Time to have a reality check and stop posting here, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. "Terran : $1,362,778.00 Zerg : $927,790.00 Protoss : $740,394.00"
...Look at your graph. It goes until may 2012...before the patch... It's now middle of august 2012, so what... almost 3 months of tournaments, and games.
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On August 20 2012 02:20 ReaperCo wrote:
Whats the range on hsm? I saw mvp he was like driving the ravens really close when they fired seemed risky.
HSM is 6 where as fungal is 9. That is why a lot of complaint about fungals because the zerg can fungal before you can get in range to launch an HSM.
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On August 20 2012 02:27 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 20 2012 02:21 zmansman17 wrote:On August 20 2012 02:20 AngryMag wrote:
not 100% sure but I think Terran players won the last 4 offline events (Taeja's two tourney wins, Kas won the eastern Euro tournament with Korean participants and now MVP won IEM). I think these successes mean that eventual issues in in TvZ are atleast largely exagerated.
In my lowbob opinion, I do not see issues at all if I watch tournament play, there was only a period of Terrans adjusting to Zerg's multiqueen play postpatch. Yes but have you looked at how many Terrans have won in the last 200 tournaments? Ok, so they won a few recent tournaments, but that is dwarfed by the results of many, many before it. ... Are you joking? Why do people say such stupid shit without ever looking into anything. http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/Starcraft-II/1474/Talking-Starcraft-2-Prize-Money-Part-1/ Oh hey, an article which proves you're an idiot, who'd of thought. "On the quarterly graph we can see that Terran has spent almost the entire duration of competitive Starcraft 2 at the top of the earnings race between the three races, dropping only the 1st Quarter to Zerg (which was when Fruitdealer won his whopping GSL prize). " Time to have a reality check and stop posting here, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. "Terran : $1,362,778.00 Zerg : $927,790.00 Protoss : $740,394.00" ...Look at your graph. It goes until may 2012...before the patch... It's now middle of august 2012, so what... almost 3 months of tournaments, and games.
He said quote "200 tournaments" as in the past 200 tournaments. And if I recall, Terran won the last 4 events no? Doing what you said would actually raise the Terran threshold even higher...
so from release to may it is proven Terran has dominated SC2 professional scene, then we hit may + and terran wins 4 events in a row? :O Terran is COMPLETELY underpowered, throw your game away Zerg isn't balanced let's burn Blizzard HQ down.
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On August 20 2012 02:28 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:20 ReaperCo wrote:
Whats the range on hsm? I saw mvp he was like driving the ravens really close when they fired seemed risky. HSM is 6 where as fungal is 9. That is why a lot of complaint about fungals because the zerg can fungal before you can get in range to launch an HSM.
Seeker missile actually HAD 9 range, but was nerfed in beta for some reason.
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EPT
