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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 20 2012 02:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Terran wins another championship, everyone still bitches throwing out a multitude of excuses as to why that occured. Surprise surprise surprise.
To be fair, neither Vortix nor Nerchio really used the super-composition of infestor/ corruptor/ broodlord that frequently (in the proper proportions), nor did they use it in a way that corruptors could take out the ravens. Most of the time, when Mvp used his ravens and their HSMs, he had free shots on the broodlords because there was a severe lack of support for those units.
Granted, Mvp had a lot of success with those ravens in the main attacks (and, of course, his multi-pronged harrasses did a tremendous amount of damage too, as Zerg late game becomes relatively immobile), but a lot of the time, the ravens ran right up to clumped broodlords (or open ultralisks) and just obliterated half the undefended Zerg army. If only Vortix or Nerchio had used each important element of the Zerg super-composition to aid each other, I think it would have been a lot tougher for Mvp.
Most of the time, there were zero corruptors or infestors for support. That's not the way to go.
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they should just make ravens have a much longer HSM range. it's retarded that they become fungal'd once and basically your 3 minute + $$$ gas investment goes down without being able to do anything.
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On August 20 2012 02:25 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:21 zmansman17 wrote:On August 20 2012 02:20 AngryMag wrote:
not 100% sure but I think Terran players won the last 4 offline events (Taeja's two tourney wins, Kas won the eastern Euro tournament with Korean participants and now MVP won IEM). I think these successes mean that eventual issues in in TvZ are atleast largely exagerated.
In my lowbob opinion, I do not see issues at all if I watch tournament play, there was only a period of Terrans adjusting to Zerg's multiqueen play postpatch. Yes but have you looked at how many Terrans have won in the last 200 tournaments? Ok, so they won a few recent tournaments, but that is dwarfed by the results of many, many before it. ... Are you joking? Why do people say such stupid shit without ever looking into anything. http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/Starcraft-II/1474/Talking-Starcraft-2-Prize-Money-Part-1/ Oh hey, an article which proves you're an idiot, who'd of thought. "On the quarterly graph we can see that Terran has spent almost the entire duration of competitive Starcraft 2 at the top of the earnings race between the three races, dropping only the 1st Quarter to Zerg (which was when Fruitdealer won his whopping GSL prize). " Time to have a reality check and stop posting here, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. "Terran : $1,362,778.00 Zerg : $927,790.00 Protoss : $740,394.00"
This doesn't address the issue of "Most recent" at all. Listing off the amount of Prize money means nothing.
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On August 20 2012 02:41 ReaperCo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:38 Zoesan wrote:
Actually, that is a really dumb argument.
What is relevant should be looking at GSL winrates etc, where a lot of top players compete.
As people have already written: nestea won the GSL last year without dropping a map and had a whopping 19-0 record between may and august.
Yet everyone was crying about how overpowered terran was. So now the situation is reversed with zergs overall winning and a single terran still at the top and terran is still the overpowered race.
Yeah, nice double standards there. I dont think terran is overpowered but i think bad terrans think they are underpowered. I would say if you play like mvp does taking bases like he does and cutting of positions terran is op. But bad terrans cant do that.
Why bad? can you say normal terran .
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On August 20 2012 02:38 Zoesan wrote:
Actually, that is a really dumb argument.
What is relevant should be looking at GSL winrates etc, where a lot of top players compete.
As people have already written: nestea won the GSL last year without dropping a map and had a whopping 19-0 record between may and august.
Yet everyone was crying about how overpowered terran was. So now the situation is reversed with zergs overall winning and a single terran still at the top and terran is still the overpowered race.
Yeah, nice double standards there.
Just curious but which single terran are we talking? MVP? taeja? Gumiho? MKP?
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On August 20 2012 02:27 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:21 zmansman17 wrote:On August 20 2012 02:20 AngryMag wrote:
not 100% sure but I think Terran players won the last 4 offline events (Taeja's two tourney wins, Kas won the eastern Euro tournament with Korean participants and now MVP won IEM). I think these successes mean that eventual issues in in TvZ are atleast largely exagerated.
In my lowbob opinion, I do not see issues at all if I watch tournament play, there was only a period of Terrans adjusting to Zerg's multiqueen play postpatch. Yes but have you looked at how many Terrans have won in the last 200 tournaments? Ok, so they won a few recent tournaments, but that is dwarfed by the results of many, many before it. The discussion is about the balance right now, which is determined by the latest events. And your arguement is just wrong: Premier Tournaments this year: 21 Terran wins: 11 other races wins: 10 Premier Tournemts last year: 40 Terran wins: 20 other races wins: 20 With 3races, Terran has won >50% of the biggest tournaments in the last one and a half year. Where have you been when you think they are not winning enough tournaments?
Wrong once again. Check out TLPD:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues#tblt-19766-9-0-DESC
Why don't you do everyone a favor and count how many Terrans won the most Recent tournaments (Post-Patch) for pages 1 and 2. But you can even go more if you want....
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I wonder where this discussion thread will go. Like if i said that something is OP and cries it out nothing is ever gonna change anyways. Or if i says that something is wrong in the meta game nothing can be changed right now anyways. We need to figure out how to play this game better. The metagame is evolving everyday and ppl balance whining before a major update to the game comes out (hots) Just wait and see what happens iknow some stuff can be frustrating.
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So much ad hominem in this Thread, it makes me Sick.
Whether or not you like or hate Avilo or something in between, use some basic logic and address the substance of his argument and not the person himself.
I expect better from posters on TL. Looks like some people here seriously need to take the LSAT...
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On August 20 2012 01:54 Little-Chimp wrote:
I hope everyone watched MVP today
I did. Im off to practice dropping in multiple spots, late game micro engagements and production plans.
I hope to find those "oh my god 2 scvs 1 marine - PULL ALL DRONES" types of high skilled zergs. Top 3 my ass.
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In general people who whine about balance just aren't very good at the game and don't play properly
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I think the bigger problem has always been(minus the first few months of release where T was very OP) is that we have a MU that may be somewhat fine now for the Korean Terrans(everyone seems to be screaming Taeja in this thread, but one guy doing well doesnt really help expalin why so many Terrans are doing bad, Taeja seems to be just on a roll gameplay wise, wins after wins build confidence) but not so fine for Master/GM players.
This is an incredibly complex problem, because at this point it seems impossible to get Terran to a level where it can be balanced at Korean level and rebalanced at Master/GM level. I know so many Terrans myself that have quit because of these issues, not to mention we have had so many threads (Where did all the Terrans go" comes to mind) that point to this issue as well.
So I agree with Avilo, that the raven change is not going to work. Blizz is going to have to get super creative to fix this problem. Then again, with HoTs around the corner, I hope that blizz can hit the same home run they did with BW.
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Community is far too knee jerk and confident when it comes to identifying balance issues.
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None of this actually matters. Heart of the Swarm is going to come out and break everything anyway.
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On August 20 2012 03:22 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:27 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 02:21 zmansman17 wrote:On August 20 2012 02:20 AngryMag wrote:
not 100% sure but I think Terran players won the last 4 offline events (Taeja's two tourney wins, Kas won the eastern Euro tournament with Korean participants and now MVP won IEM). I think these successes mean that eventual issues in in TvZ are atleast largely exagerated.
In my lowbob opinion, I do not see issues at all if I watch tournament play, there was only a period of Terrans adjusting to Zerg's multiqueen play postpatch. Yes but have you looked at how many Terrans have won in the last 200 tournaments? Ok, so they won a few recent tournaments, but that is dwarfed by the results of many, many before it. The discussion is about the balance right now, which is determined by the latest events. And your arguement is just wrong: Premier Tournaments this year: 21 Terran wins: 11 other races wins: 10 Premier Tournemts last year: 40 Terran wins: 20 other races wins: 20 With 3races, Terran has won >50% of the biggest tournaments in the last one and a half year. Where have you been when you think they are not winning enough tournaments? Wrong once again. Check out TLPD: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues#tblt-19766-9-0-DESCWhy don't you do everyone a favor and count how many Terrans won the most Recent tournaments (Post-Patch) for pages 1 and 2. But you can even go more if you want....
No, not wrong at all. It clearly said Premier Tournaments (even though I made a typo the second time I wrote it)
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
Count it yourself if you don't believe me.
And yes, I really don't care about those one night 50€ regional online tournaments, played in Bo1s that some random GM player wins, as he is the only one at this level. You could as well just post EU and US Grandmaster race distribution, as it basically says exactly the same.
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On August 20 2012 03:06 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:03 Zergrusher wrote:
guys
listen to me on this ok?
Look at the cast ranges of the ravens spells..... they are pathetic!
PDD and Auto turret cast range is 3!
Blizzard should buff the cast ranges to 6
Seeker missle cast range should be buffed from 6 to 8
Because right now any time you try yo deploy a spell from a raven(regardless of match up) your more then likey TO LOSE the raven itself.
Because simply the cast range is to short for all the spells. And on the flip side it's spells are really good after deployed. It seems to work out, so why would you change them that drastically?
lets think about this.
The raven is a support caster... but it will die trying to do the spells that are used to support.
see how flawed that logic is?
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It's been a while since my last post on SC2 strategy, and I did not read the comments from page 3 onwards. So I'm sorry if my question had been answered somewhere in this thread.
I want to know why is it that Ghosts are no longer popular against Zerg? I know that the Snipe was nerfed a long while back, but it's still powerful, and can bring Broodlords and Ultralisks down to low health, where they can be finished off by the rest of the army.
I'm also somewhat aware of the discussions about the army efficiency issue regarding Ghosts. It is said that having >10 Ghosts in a TvZ army takes away food supply that can be used for other units which can be more efficient than the Ghosts in terms of fighting. But snipe is still doing quite a lot of damage! So why are pros not using Ghosts anymore?
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Raven range makes them Kamikaze, no matter how fast they are. If they get off HSM vs Zerg, the raven should not live, EVER. That 3 minute investment for 2 (expensive) upgrades, starports, and the raven itself is a huge coinflip.
Creep is free map hack that does HUGE economic damage in the form of forcing scans to eliminate because ravens take too long.
Either the range of HSM needs HUGE buff or T needs the ability to get it much, much sooner/cheaper
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On August 20 2012 03:54 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:06 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 03:03 Zergrusher wrote:
guys
listen to me on this ok?
Look at the cast ranges of the ravens spells..... they are pathetic!
PDD and Auto turret cast range is 3!
Blizzard should buff the cast ranges to 6
Seeker missle cast range should be buffed from 6 to 8
Because right now any time you try yo deploy a spell from a raven(regardless of match up) your more then likey TO LOSE the raven itself.
Because simply the cast range is to short for all the spells. And on the flip side it's spells are really good after deployed. It seems to work out, so why would you change them that drastically? lets think about this. The raven is a support caster... but it will die trying to do the spells that are used to support. see how flawed that logic is?
Who says it is a support caster? Some blizzard help text?
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On August 20 2012 03:38 Wyk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:54 Little-Chimp wrote:
I hope everyone watched MVP today I did. Im off to practice dropping in multiple spots, late game micro engagements and production plans. I hope to find those "oh my god 2 scvs 1 marine - PULL ALL DRONES" types of high skilled zergs. Top 3 my ass.
Im not gonna lie. you sir, are awesome. I burst out laughing at the nerchio drone pull reference.
I do think nerchio is a decently skilled zerg but he couldnt have botched that worst.
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On August 20 2012 03:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:22 zmansman17 wrote:On August 20 2012 02:27 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 02:21 zmansman17 wrote:On August 20 2012 02:20 AngryMag wrote:
not 100% sure but I think Terran players won the last 4 offline events (Taeja's two tourney wins, Kas won the eastern Euro tournament with Korean participants and now MVP won IEM). I think these successes mean that eventual issues in in TvZ are atleast largely exagerated.
In my lowbob opinion, I do not see issues at all if I watch tournament play, there was only a period of Terrans adjusting to Zerg's multiqueen play postpatch. Yes but have you looked at how many Terrans have won in the last 200 tournaments? Ok, so they won a few recent tournaments, but that is dwarfed by the results of many, many before it. The discussion is about the balance right now, which is determined by the latest events. And your arguement is just wrong: Premier Tournaments this year: 21 Terran wins: 11 other races wins: 10 Premier Tournemts last year: 40 Terran wins: 20 other races wins: 20 With 3races, Terran has won >50% of the biggest tournaments in the last one and a half year. Where have you been when you think they are not winning enough tournaments? Wrong once again. Check out TLPD: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues#tblt-19766-9-0-DESCWhy don't you do everyone a favor and count how many Terrans won the most Recent tournaments (Post-Patch) for pages 1 and 2. But you can even go more if you want.... No, not wrong at all. It clearly said Premier Tournaments (even though I made a typo the second time I wrote it) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsCount it yourself if you don't believe me. And yes, I really don't care about those one night 50€ regional online tournaments, played in Bo1s that some random GM player wins, as he is the only one at this level. You could as well just post EU and US Grandmaster race distribution, as it basically says exactly the same.
Actually, your interpretation of the data is still flawed. Given that we are talking about Post-Patch, we would need only reference the Tournaments since the patch in early May. And granted, this is if we accept these tournaments over TLPD numbers, which I do not. Therefore, I will include both numbers.
But even using these numbers, we are left with these tournaments:
August IEM Season VII - Global Challenge Cologne IEM $31,800 24 Mvp Nerchio
August ASUS ROG Summer 2012 ASUS ROG $30,000 32 TaeJa MC
July TeamLiquid StarLeague 4 TSL $34,500 32
July 2012 MLG Summer Arena MLG $26,400 32 TaeJa Alicia
July HomeStory Cup V HomeStory $25,000 32 Nerchio YongHwa
June 2012 DreamHack Open - Summer DreamHack $29,770 128 MaNa DIMAGA
June 2012 MLG Spring Championship MLG $76,000 32 DongRaeGu Alicia
May 2012 GSL Season 3 GSL $147,920 32 Seed MC
May 2012 MLG Spring Arena 2 MLG $26,400 32 viOLet Symbol
Including MVP and his most recent win at IEM, we have a Grand Total of 3 Terrans out of 16 for Winners and Runner-Ups.
So even using your Data and Ignoring All the Other Tournaments, which still recruit the Best players in the world, and a large number of participants, There aren't many Terrans.
However, if we use TLPD and all the Recent Tournaments since the Patch, we have 34 Terran winners to 240 Zerg and Protoss Tournament Winners.
So it looks like you fail to interpret data.
Check for yourself: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/leagues/index.php?section=sc2-international&type=individual&tabulator_page=9&tabulator_order_col=0&tabulator_order_desc=1&tabulator_search=#tblt-20607-1-0-DESC
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EPT
