EPT[D] The raven buff does not address TvZ issues - Page 24
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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. | ||
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Xonix
225 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On August 20 2012 03:56 U_G_L_Y wrote: Raven range makes them Kamikaze, no matter how fast they are. If they get off HSM vs Zerg, the raven should not live, EVER. That 3 minute investment for 2 (expensive) upgrades, starports, and the raven itself is a huge coinflip. Creep is free map hack that does HUGE economic damage in the form of forcing scans to eliminate because ravens take too long. Either the range of HSM needs HUGE buff or T needs the ability to get it much, much sooner/cheaper Talking about map hack, what about sensor towers? Oh right, those things are really really expensive... | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2843 Posts
I bet we could watch your games and point out a number of mistakes you make in your TvZs, avilo. Shit's gotta start at home. | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
On August 20 2012 03:57 Big J wrote: Who says it is a support caster? Some blizzard help text? think about it logically. also its supposed to be the spiritual sucessor to the science vessel | ||
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Corrosive
Canada3741 Posts
hmm... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 20 2012 04:02 zmansman17 wrote: Actually, your interpretation of the data is still flawed. Given that we are talking about Post-Patch, we would need only reference the Tournaments since the patch in early May. And granted, this is if we accept these tournaments over TLPD numbers, which I do not. But even using these numbers, we are left with these tournaments: August IEM Season VII - Global Challenge Cologne IEM $31,800 24 Mvp Nerchio August ASUS ROG Summer 2012 ASUS ROG $30,000 32 TaeJa MC July TeamLiquid StarLeague 4 TSL $34,500 32 July 2012 MLG Summer Arena MLG $26,400 32 TaeJa Alicia July HomeStory Cup V HomeStory $25,000 32 Nerchio YongHwa June 2012 DreamHack Open - Summer DreamHack $29,770 128 MaNa DIMAGA June 2012 MLG Spring Championship MLG $76,000 32 DongRaeGu Alicia May 2012 GSL Season 3 GSL $147,920 32 Seed MC May 2012 MLG Spring Arena 2 MLG $26,400 32 viOLet Symbol Including MVP and his most recent win at IEM, we have a Grand Total of 3 Terrans out of 16 for Winners and Runner-Ups. So even using your Data and Ignoring All the Other Tournaments, which still recruit the Best players in the world, and a large number of participants, There aren't many Terrans. Well, but they are doing better than you say. Of course the patch fucked a ton of stuff up, there is absolutly no denying. I'm not even saying that TvZ imbalanced don't exist at all (though the longer Terrans had time to adapt to the new metagame, the better they seem to perform at the highest level). But you are completly overexaggerating. Even 3/16 is not that bad, considering that statistically you should have 5.3333/16, if the game was perfectly balanced and 16 was a useful statistical size. | ||
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Cutlery
Norway565 Posts
On August 19 2012 18:15 Saat wrote: I guess this idea : "Make fungals unstackable. So if infestors hit aready fungaled units with the spell again, it does absolutely nothing, not even refresh the spell duration" may be good. But i prefer the one of that fungal will not be able anymore to root "massive" units, like Archons, Carriers, BC, Mothership. It is already the case for ultralisk. And with that solution, archon toilet will become easier to place (and then, zerg who are spamming "split ur viking" will have to split their own units, and positionning better, and carriers / BC will become more common. That will change nothing for ravens, for sure. But it may help mega late game PvZ and TvZ. And if bli wants to see raven used a little more, (actually, there are no reasons for removing carriers from the game, and keep ravens. I do not see more ravens that carriers), they may decrease the amount of energy needed for the missile, or improve the amount of energy which have ravens when they pop. Or increase the range of the missile, and decrease something else of this spell (damages, splash...) Damage and splash of the missile are not too low. No way. That's not an issue. Also "helping lategame zvp and zvt" doesn't neccesarily make sense. Does protoss need help also now? So any suggestion that nerfs Z in zvp is, in a way, quite off limits. Buffing archon toilet I also strongly disagree with. It feels more like a freak of nature than an actually intended tactic, considering how much they switched things up; tho' didn't want to remove it, which I guess is ok. Latest news about the ultra is that in HOTS it will NOT be immune to fungal growth snare. So blizzard is actually thinking about going that route rather than making more units immune to it. Your fungal suggestion is quite silly either way. And again, buffing archon toilet, yeahno, don't see that happening any time soon. Sorry but I feel like you're wanting to change a perfectly fine game. All I can think of is how casting multiple fungals to cover a larger area becomes a hazard as the "edges" of your individual fungal will start failing as one fungal ends somewhere and your next fungal ends up fungaling 50% of its area and everybody gets confused. According to blizzard there isn't actually any notable imbalance at any level. Except perhaps at the pro level where terrans went from dominating everything to taking perhaps a backseat for the very first time. Doesn't mean that the metagame can't handle it, and it certainly doesn't mean the game should be drastically altered. | ||
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Moochlol
United States456 Posts
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MrF
United States320 Posts
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CrtBalorda
Slovenia704 Posts
But looking at the latest GSL I feel like TvZ is fine. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 20 2012 04:14 Zergrusher wrote: think about it logically. also its supposed to be the spiritual sucessor to the science vessel I think about it logically. Blizzard made a unit called the Raven, gave it a bunch of abilities and gave it to the players of SC2 to develop a role for it and then balance it accordingly. It turned out not to be a support caster, but a unit that is mostly used as lategame antiair unit, used against compositions that can kill it as well. | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
On August 20 2012 04:23 Big J wrote: I think about it logically. Blizzard made a unit called the Raven, gave it a bunch of abilities and gave it to the players of SC2 to develop a role for it and then balance it accordingly. It turned out not to be a support caster, but a unit that is mostly used as lategame antiair unit, used against compositions that can kill it as well. look at all the ravens spells. they are supportive in nature. also look at the tech postion/upgrades of the raven, Saying its not a supportive caster is like saying the spine crawler is not a defensive structure. and spellcasters by nature are supportive. | ||
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kranten
Netherlands236 Posts
Anyway, TvZ doesn't seem to be imbalanced, but TvZ is less fun to watch lately, so many games play out the same, terran going for 3 cc, zerg turtling for BL/infestor/corruptor. | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10126 Posts
On August 20 2012 04:05 Ramiz1989 wrote: Talking about map hack, what about sensor towers? Oh right, those things are really really expensive... Well those cost 100gas. So aren't cheap like you would say spreading creep since 4 queens against T is pretty standard, and still doesn't tell you your enemy army composition. Different stuff is different. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 20 2012 04:36 Zergrusher wrote: look at all the ravens spells. they are supportive in nature. also look at the tech postion/upgrades of the raven, Saying its not a supportive caster is like saying the spine crawler is not a defensive structure. and spellcasters by nature are supportive. No, HSM is not a support spell. It's a biggass damage dealer. PDD defends units around it. Does not mean that you have to use other units that the raven supports. PDD defends the Raven just as well. Auto Turret: many applications, defends or attacks a location. For example the Raven. And no, spellcasters are not support by nature. Infestor is basically standalone. Science Vessel in BW is basically standalone against Zerg. (that does not mean that either of them should be used on its own. But they can deal quite well with everything) As long as you have enough energy (which you have with vessel, raven, infestor when you mass them), they can fight properly on their own. | ||
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Pazuzu
United States632 Posts
On August 20 2012 04:04 Xonix wrote: Guys lets be totally honest with the game play right now. In the history of sc2 there has been many things that have supposibly "broke" the game. If you want to beat a zerg, don't keep doing the same thing you lose with and cry until a patch comes out... take action and develop a new strategy to beat a zerg. Simple as that This is exactly the issue. also its an avilo thread.... | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On August 20 2012 04:45 Godwrath wrote: Well those cost 100gas. So aren't cheap like you would say spreading creep since 4 queens against T is pretty standard, and still doesn't tell you your enemy army composition. Different stuff is different. 4 Queens are 600 minerals, and one of those is 100 gas, that Terran usually end up with 2000 because they aren't using any gas expensive units? Yeah... I am just sick of people whining how some race got advantage with something while completely ignoring what their race can do and the stuff they have advantage with. | ||
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NiteshadeSC2
Canada98 Posts
On August 20 2012 04:05 Ramiz1989 wrote: Talking about map hack, what about sensor towers? Oh right, those things are really really expensive... Apples to apples, oranges to oranges please. Creep costs neither minerals nor gas. Creep self-replicates in any direction the player wishes. Creep requires detection to eliminate. Creep provides a speed buff to most units (some exceptions). Terran and Protoss cannot build next to a creep tumor. Creep (or rather the tumors) allow for the vision of the exact unit type over it (save for cloaked). Creep does not appear on the minimap without first scouting it with a unit. VS: The sensor tower does not do any of the above. They are not the same, not even close. Best, Niteshade | ||
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