|
If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
Anyone currently arguing that MVP's win at IEM proves balance in TvZ is either a complete idiot or did not watch the games.
Nerchio completely threw away the finals. He played like absolute garbage. It may have been nerves, but he made mistake after mistake, choosing terrible engagements and mismicroing every one (headbutting marauders and tanks with infestors? making unupgraded roaches when he had a greater spire? rallying lings the the fourth straight into tanks and marines?) so terribly that MVP could have had no hands and still won. Same goes for Slikvo vs. MVP. Losing 20+ drones to 4 hellions and 2 banshees when you have 4 queens and multiple spores and spines is absolutely inexcusable. He played like shit.
Please, I implore you, download the replays and watch them. Casters like to make players sound better than they are, and make games seem closer than they are, because it hypes the tournament. MVP won not because he is an amazing terran (although he is,) but because he played against opponents that turned their brains off during the games.
And by the way, does anyone think a Terran who makes mistakes as egregious and easily rectified as these two trashy euro zergs would stand a chance at getting to the finals of a major tournament? Fuck no.
|
On August 20 2012 06:09 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:17 InSpiReZerG wrote:
If at first you don't succeed, Cry Cry Again. Tell your balance problems to MVP. Suggestion: spend your time studying better players instead of doing the same thing and expecting it to miraculously work. So there are no balance issues because there are 2 players doing well? I guess by that logic the game was completely balanced at release as well. After all, Fruitdealer and Nestea both won the first two GSLs! If anything, Zerg was too strong back then.
Next game just morph your command center into a box of Kleenex for all the tear drops. Terran are winning TvZ all across the board. If you aren't, its not balance. You're builds are flawed. if they werent you'd be GM. Any fix bliz employs will change the overall win rates of tvz by less than 1%. Trust me, it wont change anything in your build and you'll still have some L's to hold. HOLD DAT.
|
On August 20 2012 05:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:30 jidolboy wrote:On August 20 2012 05:27 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 05:25 jidolboy wrote:On August 20 2012 05:20 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 05:14 jidolboy wrote:On August 20 2012 05:05 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:56 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:50 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Zergrusher wrote:
[quote]
look at all the ravens spells.
they are supportive in nature.
also look at the tech postion/upgrades of the raven,
Saying its not a supportive caster is like saying the spine crawler is not a defensive structure.
and spellcasters by nature are supportive. No, HSM is not a support spell. It's a biggass damage dealer. PDD defends units around it. Does not mean that you have to use other units that the raven supports. PDD defends the Raven just as well. Auto Turret: many applications, defends or attacks a location. For example the Raven. And no, spellcasters are not support by nature. Infestor is basically standalone. Science Vessel in BW is basically standalone against Zerg. (that does not mean that either of them should be used on its own. But they can deal quite well with everything) As long as you have enough energy (which you have with vessel, raven, infestor when you mass them), they can fight properly on their own. I'm abit concerned about what you understand about game design 0_o OK, so please define what a support unit is. From my understanding, it is a unit that cannot fight properly on it's own, but provides something extra to protect the rest of your army, fill niche roles or just strengthens your army. The Raven can fight properly on it's own. Not against everything (for example vikings, infestors or ultras), but against a big variety of stuff. According to your logic then Infestors and HT are NOT supporting units because they can fight properly on their own too. Infestors = Use Infested Terran to attack HT = Storm units that is attacking them and merge them into Archons Infestors aren't support units. If the infestor was a support unit, then noone would be talking about mass infestor. HTs are support units, because storms dont stack. Archons are not support units. Infestors are supporting units. If you attack let's say MMM with just Infestors with nothing else, you will lose majority, if not all of your unit However, if you attacked with lings,blings and infestors, then you can demolish other player's unit or lose some of your units. same thing vis versa; if you only go ling/bling, mass MMM can deal with that. But with infestors, it gets pretty tough. Does that mean that ling/bling is a support? No! Sure, It gets tough, but Infestors aren't necessary to attack other player's unit. However, if you try to attack with Infestor alone then you will get fucked because they aren't meant to be used offensively. No you are not fucked. ZvZ tends to come down to mass infestor vs mass infestor a lot, TvZ we see numbers of 15+ infestors in the lategame quite commonly. IT + fungal is standalone. Again, that does not mean that 9.5 range artillery, additional anti air or just cheap stuff that fights quite well, or even better, synergizes with fungal (like blings and ultras) isn't superior. But that doesn't mean that the infestor only has a support role. Look at MMM. Is the marine a support unit? No. Is pure marine superior to MMM? Usually not. It makes your composition more well rounded. Your logic is out of control lol.
|
i was threre on iem
alot of cameras where pointed during the game and it was awuly hot
not good enviroment to play properly
|
The problem with TvZ atm, at least in my opinion, is that the Queen buff has made all aggression from Terran borderline negligible. Hellions are far weaker at containing and harassing, early bio timings are so much weaker, and banshee openings are so much weaker. Because of this, terrans can't force the zerg to stop making drones - so when terran opens aggresively, and the zerg can just make 80 drones without batting an eyelid anyway, the terran falls wayyyy behind.
The most recent solution to this is for terran to just play stupid greedy - 3 CCs off of 1 rax etc. Again, the problem with this is that because zerg can spam drones so quickly, the moment they scout a double expand they wil stop making anything other than drones, and even then, with the terran on 3 CCs, the zerg will still get to 80 drones before the terran gets to even just 50 SCVs - terrans again fall wayyyyy behind.
It seems to me that no matter whether they are aggresive or passive, terrans just can't get ahead in this matchup anymore (assuming that both players are of equal skill level).
This is why I have starting playing TvZ ForGG style - just suiciding hellions into mineral lines. It's actually what I have also been seeing from a lot of pro terrans as well. I guess the mentality is this: You can't stop the zerg from making drones, so the only other solution is to kill the drones at all costs. I saw SuperNova, MVP, Bomber and more literally suiciding hellions into mineral lines so much during IEM, but the problem with this is that it is such a huge gamble. If there are a lot of queens, 300 resources worth of roaches, spine crawlers etc. that kind of play just falls a part.
|
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz.
|
On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz.
Hm. You must not be watching good zergs, as it is quite easy with range 5 queens to deny all hellion runbys if the zerg is not absolutely awful. Perhaps you only watch your own games?
|
Whatever the unit is, there's just little to no control on some units that have a serious influence on the outcome of the game. Let's face it; you're going to want a lot of ravens and to keep them all alive more often than, say, a marine ball, with the latter supposedly being the main army. Yes, this applies to any unit in the game, but this effect is even more noticable when the unit is a spellcaster and when it gets extremely difficult to control the number of those units.
This happened to the HT, Ghost, Collosus, Thor, Siege tank, and any unit with a potentially abusable spell/skillset. All of them got nerfed, some more severely than others. It's too easy to abuse in SC2 because of the AI, and it's ridiculously difficult to kill a large amount of any unit with an abusable spell. Speed buffing spellcasters is the safest bet towards balancing the game, but it is also the one that is least likely to change anything at all. Does anyone even remember or notice the medivac and infestor speed nerfs?
As most people can tell, a giant ball of infestors with a potential 9 range root spell is difficult to touch. A giant ball of spellcasters is usually pretty difficult to kill. There are major issues that need to be addressed (the larvae mechanic, smart cast : ability power ratio, lack of unique micro, map making procedures, the deathball immortallity, just to name a few), but as it stands right now, all Blizzard can do is speed buff anything that needs help because they do not want to tamper with the game until HotS, where they will have another balancing nightmare, moreso than WoL.
|
On August 20 2012 06:34 DebtSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz. Hm. You must not be watching good zergs, as it is quite easy with range 5 queens to deny all hellion runbys if the zerg is not absolutely awful. Perhaps you only watch your own games?
TSL is on right now. Keen got 20+ drone kills everytime he went hellions so far. go check it and zip dat lip.
|
On August 20 2012 05:17 Callynn wrote:
If you look at the bigger picture you can see the design intention behind the spellcasters in SC2.
Protoss have a tier 1 spellcaster (Sentry) and a generic land spellcaster with an AoE ability (Templar storm).
Zerg have only a generic land spellcaster with an AoE ability, but does not need to research it's AoE (Infestor fungal).
Terran have a generic land spellcaster with an AoE ability that is mainly effective against protoss at the moment due to the snipe nerf (Ghost) and a tier 3 spellcaster (Raven) which has it's AoE damage ability behind because it's a flying unit (which can be overpowered if they increased the HSM range by only a bit).
To solve the problem, they should just increase Ghost Snipe damage against massive biological units!
This fixes a direct balance issue that is being complained about, though I personally think a good player should be able to rush Ravens.
Another way to 'fix' the problem is slightly reduce the cost of Ravens (from 200 gas down to maybe 175).
Just my 2 cents.
This is the best balance idea ive heard pertaining to this issue. Having snipe do bonus vs massive would only affect TvZ and would give terran an answer to Broods/Ultras in the lategame as well as allowing Terrans to spend thier gas buildup. As for the raven, blizzard either needs to buff it to make in viable or change its abilities entirely. There is a reason that Koreans didnt use it until now.
|
On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz.
First, that is impossible.
Second, how would you feel if the game was balanced in such a way that the only way zerg could beat terran was by building one very specific unit and suiciding them at one very specific target, when the entire thing is a gamble to begin with?
Yeah, you'd feel pretty dam pi*sed off.
|
On August 20 2012 06:39 InSpiReZerG wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:34 DebtSC2 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz. Hm. You must not be watching good zergs, as it is quite easy with range 5 queens to deny all hellion runbys if the zerg is not absolutely awful. Perhaps you only watch your own games? TSL is on right now. Keen got 20+ drone kills everytime he went hellions so far. go check it and zip dat lip.
I don't care for your argument, but no he hasn't. He gets a good 3-4 but with a decent wall/queen prep. Keen's runbys have been pretty bad
|
Thats not the only way to win..... macro terran is very powerful as well. But the biggest complaint i hear by you plat league morons is that you cant harrass zerg. when korean terran literally go hellion banshee 90% of the time and have great success with a HARRASS FOCUSSED BUILD.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On August 20 2012 06:34 DebtSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz. Hm. You must not be watching good zergs, as it is quite easy with range 5 queens to deny all hellion runbys if the zerg is not absolutely awful. Perhaps you only watch your own games?
Your argument is flawed, that depends on the map a lot, and if the Zerg has pushed with the Queens, or is guarding the chokes with them. Queens still do terrible damage, you can destroy the Hellions if they stand there, or if they fight with the Queens, you absolutely can't destroy Hellions if they just run-by. Even on creep, Queens are damn slow. Sure, those Hellions will die if they run-by, but you are going to kill a lot of drones anyway.
|
On August 20 2012 06:42 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:34 DebtSC2 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz. Hm. You must not be watching good zergs, as it is quite easy with range 5 queens to deny all hellion runbys if the zerg is not absolutely awful. Perhaps you only watch your own games? Your argument is flawed, that depends on the map a lot, and if the Zerg has pushed with the Queens, or is guarding the chokes with them. Queens still do terrible damage, you can destroy the Hellions if they stand there, or if they fight with the Queens, you absolutely can't destroy Hellions if they just run-by. Even on creep, Queens are damn slow. Sure, those Hellions will die if they run-by, but you are going to kill a lot of drones anyway.
Amen bro. I really feel like most complaints here are coming from Bronze league/ stream watchers. anyone playing the game at current balance knows Terran lategame trouble has nothing to do with queen balance.
|
Both major and keen have now played games vs jonnyrecco that they lost where they had a massive excess of gas and did not make any ravens.
Just saying.
You are supposed to spend your resources. All of them. This is a very basic concept in StarCraft.
|
I don't know why you would be arguing over whether or not runby's always pay for themselves because they clearly don't. Terrans suicide their hellions and get negligible amounts of drone kills all the time. Plus, once you lose your hellions, you lose map control unless you are building hellions constantly. But if you build that many hellions and the zerg builds roaches you are screwed.
|
Korean Terrans have been figuring out the matchup again and doing well again lately. It's only the NA/EU Terrans that would rather complain rather than get replays/VODs of those players that are having success and practice using builds and styles that are being developed by the Korean pros.
|
On August 20 2012 06:45 InSpiReZerG wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:42 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:34 DebtSC2 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz. Hm. You must not be watching good zergs, as it is quite easy with range 5 queens to deny all hellion runbys if the zerg is not absolutely awful. Perhaps you only watch your own games? Your argument is flawed, that depends on the map a lot, and if the Zerg has pushed with the Queens, or is guarding the chokes with them. Queens still do terrible damage, you can destroy the Hellions if they stand there, or if they fight with the Queens, you absolutely can't destroy Hellions if they just run-by. Even on creep, Queens are damn slow. Sure, those Hellions will die if they run-by, but you are going to kill a lot of drones anyway. Amen bro. I really feel like most complaints here are coming from Bronze league/ stream watchers. anyone playing the game at current balance knows Terran lategame trouble has nothing to do with queen balance.
I really feel like most of the "Zerg defense force" and "everything is fine" crowd are Zergs with under 1k posts.
Getting a return on hellion harassment has a lot more to it than just 2 drones per hellion. Investments are made by both players and risks are taken, and some combinations of strategies require as much as 4 drones per hellion to come out ahead, and some will vault you ahead with a "break even" cost.
|
On August 20 2012 06:52 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Korean Terrans have been figuring out the matchup again and doing well again lately. It's only the NA/EU Terrans that would rather complain rather than get replays/VODs of those players that are having success and practice using builds and styles that are being developed by the Korean pros.
Again, it's not "Korean pros." It's Taeja, and MVP beating up on foreign Zergs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
