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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 20 2012 06:34 DebtSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz. Hm. You must not be watching good zergs, as it is quite easy with range 5 queens to deny all hellion runbys if the zerg is not absolutely awful. Perhaps you only watch your own games?
I think the queen changes have very little to do with stopping hellion run by's. It's more of the fact that at the time run by's would occur, there are 4 queens that you can position along with 2 evolution chambers to completely block out hellion harass
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On August 20 2012 06:42 InSpiReZerG wrote:
Thats not the only way to win..... macro terran is very powerful as well. But the biggest complaint i hear by you plat league morons is that you cant harrass zerg. when korean terran literally go hellion banshee 90% of the time and have great success with a HARRASS FOCUSSED BUILD.
The problem is that helion and banshee micro along with macro takes lots of apm and multitasking to do efficiently so it's only seen done effectively at high levels of play whereas good spore crawler placement and sim city can be done at almost any level. Zerg players sit here and say Terran should just l2p, but really when did Zerg do the same? They didn't do anything to innovate against 5 rax reaper, 2 rax bunker pressure against hatch first, bfh helion and marine elevators, and they could have just had better reaction times yet instead medivac speed gets nerfed, etc yet they're allowed to whine and get buffs? Nice double standards there. I'll use your argument against you. Why didn't you just play like Nestea when he went undefeated in one of his Code S runs? Or why weren't you doing what Fruitdealer did when Terran was supposedly OP yet Zerg wins the first GSL? It's a terrible argument as you see.
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"A raven speed buff does zero to address these issues because the problem is and never will be raven speed. The problem is how fungal growth pins down "
oh my god LOL
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On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz.
Could you stop posting in this thread? You're like a multiple choice question on exams that contains the word "all" "every time" or "always" that you know you can eliminate because it's a fucking generality that is "never" true. Also, I like how you turned "all" into "90%" in your next post as well. Just drop 10% from it, now you're MUCH more credible. 90% of helion runbys with banshee backup is auto Terran win, yep. I need a way to cross out your posts to read any legitimate discussion. People have to respond to your crap because you're trolling us.
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On August 20 2012 02:41 ReaperCo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:38 Zoesan wrote:
Actually, that is a really dumb argument.
What is relevant should be looking at GSL winrates etc, where a lot of top players compete.
As people have already written: nestea won the GSL last year without dropping a map and had a whopping 19-0 record between may and august.
Yet everyone was crying about how overpowered terran was. So now the situation is reversed with zergs overall winning and a single terran still at the top and terran is still the overpowered race.
Yeah, nice double standards there. I dont think terran is overpowered but i think bad terrans think they are underpowered. I would say if you play like mvp does taking bases like he does and cutting of positions terran is op. But bad terrans cant do that.
"I don't think zerg is underpowered but i think bad zergs (sup idra) think they are underpowered. I would say if you play like nestea does taking bases like he does and cutting of positions zerg is op. But bad zergs can't do that."
Still a bullshit argument.
I'm not actually saying terran is anything, but the argumentation is so conceptually flawed and hypocritical it isn't even funny anymore.
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On August 20 2012 06:53 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:45 InSpiReZerG wrote:On August 20 2012 06:42 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:34 DebtSC2 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz. Hm. You must not be watching good zergs, as it is quite easy with range 5 queens to deny all hellion runbys if the zerg is not absolutely awful. Perhaps you only watch your own games? Your argument is flawed, that depends on the map a lot, and if the Zerg has pushed with the Queens, or is guarding the chokes with them. Queens still do terrible damage, you can destroy the Hellions if they stand there, or if they fight with the Queens, you absolutely can't destroy Hellions if they just run-by. Even on creep, Queens are damn slow. Sure, those Hellions will die if they run-by, but you are going to kill a lot of drones anyway. Amen bro. I really feel like most complaints here are coming from Bronze league/ stream watchers. anyone playing the game at current balance knows Terran lategame trouble has nothing to do with queen balance. I really feel like most of the "Zerg defense force" and "everything is fine" crowd are Zergs with under 1k posts.Getting a return on hellion harassment has a lot more to it than just 2 drones per hellion. Investments are made by both players and risks are taken, and some combinations of strategies require as much as 4 drones per hellion to come out ahead, and some will vault you ahead with a "break even" cost.
You heard it here first folks, if you have less than 1k posts, your argument is invalid.
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I play low-Masters Terran and it always feels like all the pressure is on me to somehow make the Zerg lose or they just get that über army and roll me.
I rage and whine over this injustice all the time while laddering.
Then you'll watch high-level Korean Terrans play and realize you just suck and while equally sucky players may beat you at your skill tier because of race mechanics that really doesn't say much about the actual balance of the game.
Also we have HotS so soon that this entire discussion is just irrelevant.
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On August 20 2012 06:56 Stropheum wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:34 DebtSC2 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz. Hm. You must not be watching good zergs, as it is quite easy with range 5 queens to deny all hellion runbys if the zerg is not absolutely awful. Perhaps you only watch your own games? I think the queen changes have very little to do with stopping hellion run by's. It's more of the fact that at the time run by's would occur, there are 4 queens that you can position along with 2 evolution chambers to completely block out hellion harass
I still think it has to do with the fact that there is little tradeoff with going for a mass queen defensive opening. So much larvae can be dedicated for upfront drone production or recovery drone production while still remaining safe at every stage of the game. It's not like getting extra queens reduce the early or mid game scouting of Zerg, the economy of Zerg, or the tech options of Zerg. It's a no brainer to do.
Even before the buff, you could have gone 4 queen and blocked off the entrance. With good play, you would perfectly counter any hellion opening, but you would have to invest in a few lings or roaches as well. That made it very risky to do blind, and with slower overlords, it required a bit of gambling.
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What bothers me about the raven is that it's a luck-based unit. Ghosts were effective If you had the APM to snipe quickly enough. Seeker missile is more of "Okay, I'm in position. Let's hope that he has all of his stuff clumped up!" type of ability.
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On August 20 2012 07:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:53 aksfjh wrote:On August 20 2012 06:45 InSpiReZerG wrote:On August 20 2012 06:42 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:34 DebtSC2 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz. Hm. You must not be watching good zergs, as it is quite easy with range 5 queens to deny all hellion runbys if the zerg is not absolutely awful. Perhaps you only watch your own games? Your argument is flawed, that depends on the map a lot, and if the Zerg has pushed with the Queens, or is guarding the chokes with them. Queens still do terrible damage, you can destroy the Hellions if they stand there, or if they fight with the Queens, you absolutely can't destroy Hellions if they just run-by. Even on creep, Queens are damn slow. Sure, those Hellions will die if they run-by, but you are going to kill a lot of drones anyway. Amen bro. I really feel like most complaints here are coming from Bronze league/ stream watchers. anyone playing the game at current balance knows Terran lategame trouble has nothing to do with queen balance. I really feel like most of the "Zerg defense force" and "everything is fine" crowd are Zergs with under 1k posts.Getting a return on hellion harassment has a lot more to it than just 2 drones per hellion. Investments are made by both players and risks are taken, and some combinations of strategies require as much as 4 drones per hellion to come out ahead, and some will vault you ahead with a "break even" cost. You heard it here first folks, if you have less than 1k posts, your argument is invalid.
Yep, if DRG made an account on here to contribute to the discussion, his argument would be invalid too.
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On August 20 2012 07:13 IAmMajiC wrote:
What bothers me about the raven is that it's a luck-based unit. Ghosts were effective If you had the APM to snipe quickly enough. Seeker missile is more of "Okay, I'm in position. Let's hope that he has all of his stuff clumped up!" type of ability.
Kind of true, but all of the units that you use HSM against are pretty slow, and are quite hard to spread on time in direct engagement.
If he spreads it before, you can tear it up, bit by bit with your army. And almost all of the pros have their Infestors clumped up, so it is not that hard to kill them. The real problem is that you can't cast HSM if you get hit by the Fungal, which just means you will have to spread all of your Ravens like people do nowadays with the Vikings, and cast with all of them HSM. Zerg will try to fungal them, because he can't escape the Ravens with Infestors and Brood Lords, but he won't be able to stop all of them if you come from multiple sides.
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On August 20 2012 07:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:53 aksfjh wrote:On August 20 2012 06:45 InSpiReZerG wrote:On August 20 2012 06:42 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:34 DebtSC2 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz. Hm. You must not be watching good zergs, as it is quite easy with range 5 queens to deny all hellion runbys if the zerg is not absolutely awful. Perhaps you only watch your own games? Your argument is flawed, that depends on the map a lot, and if the Zerg has pushed with the Queens, or is guarding the chokes with them. Queens still do terrible damage, you can destroy the Hellions if they stand there, or if they fight with the Queens, you absolutely can't destroy Hellions if they just run-by. Even on creep, Queens are damn slow. Sure, those Hellions will die if they run-by, but you are going to kill a lot of drones anyway. Amen bro. I really feel like most complaints here are coming from Bronze league/ stream watchers. anyone playing the game at current balance knows Terran lategame trouble has nothing to do with queen balance. I really feel like most of the "Zerg defense force" and "everything is fine" crowd are Zergs with under 1k posts.Getting a return on hellion harassment has a lot more to it than just 2 drones per hellion. Investments are made by both players and risks are taken, and some combinations of strategies require as much as 4 drones per hellion to come out ahead, and some will vault you ahead with a "break even" cost. You heard it here first folks, if you have less than 1k posts, your argument is invalid.
It's more along the lines that many of us have had this entire discussion before. There are points made and taken, and others refuted. There are very clear arguments that are made by idiots, like "EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself." Your argument isn't automatically "invalid" with a low post count, but does increase the chance your argument is based on lines of one of the following:
a) Game is fine. It's just the metagame evolving. Blizzard should just give it time and not make any more changes!
b) Players who pick Zerg are just better.
c) There are some players who still win against Zerg, so there's nothing wrong with the matchup.
d) Marines!
There are others as well.
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On August 20 2012 07:10 Mylin wrote:
I play low-Masters Terran and it always feels like all the pressure is on me to somehow make the Zerg lose or they just get that über army and roll me.
I rage and whine over this injustice all the time while laddering.
Then you'll watch high-level Korean Terrans play and realize you just suck and while equally sucky players may beat you at your skill tier because of race mechanics that really doesn't say much about the actual balance of the game.
Also we have HotS so soon that this entire discussion is just irrelevant.
Such a smart response, props  Yeah you watch Taeja or MVP vs Zerg and realize that with proper understanding of the game, Terran is certainly capable of beating any Zerg.
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I think the issue is the timing of when the ravens can come out. If you can set up 7/8 ravens with enough energy for 1 HSM each, the ravens with viking/ground force support can rip through most broodlord/infestor/corruptor army even with 3-4 HSM hitting the zerg army.
It feels like TvZ super-late game is beginning to be like the 14-17 min mark for zerg vs protoss if Zerg is trying to press out brood lords after roach. The protoss needs to have done good damage with a strong push before the broods start pounding at the front of the toss's base. If the protoss is sucessful at doing some damage and keep some army alive, it can proceed to getting that archon/mothership setup or MC style mass mass-gateway-constant-aggression to combat the brood/infestor.
The speed/acceleration on the raven will have a significant effect on matchup. The reason is simply: HSM has a short cast range, and it's really hard to micro the missile casts due to their awful accel/movespeed. The implications of this buff would be that less ravens would be required to cast multiple HSM before dying. Right now from pro games of late late TvZ, the raven count has to be 8+ just to be able to cast 3-4 HSM successfully because of fungals and clunkiness of ravens. This change would likely make ravens more maneuverable and squeeze out more successful HSM casts from fewer ravens.
In short ravens become more effective even in smaller numbers (3 or 4 with 125 energy.)
I think the issue becomes: "How can terrans transition into late game with 4+ effective ravens with 125 energy before the brood lord infestor ball kills the terran?"
The commonalities of this transition I've observed in pro games so far are:
1) Lots of drops. Switching out marine/marauder drops supply for ravens.
2) Huge maps (Metropolis, Atlanta Spaceship, Daybreak, Whirlwind?). This seems to be almost a given for the ravens to be viable currently, but I hope someone can figure out the transition to ravens in smaller maps.
3) Making the base counterattack-proof. Lots of turrets with excess minerals/planetary fortresses/simcities with good tanks seiged/good posturing of main army.
4) Lots of orbitals to switch out scvs for MULEs for larger effective army size. This also makes counterattacks that kill SCVs less effective.
This was my humble two cents.
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On August 20 2012 06:57 bellsNkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:42 InSpiReZerG wrote:
Thats not the only way to win..... macro terran is very powerful as well. But the biggest complaint i hear by you plat league morons is that you cant harrass zerg. when korean terran literally go hellion banshee 90% of the time and have great success with a HARRASS FOCUSSED BUILD. The problem is that helion and banshee micro along with macro takes lots of apm and multitasking to do efficiently so it's only seen done effectively at high levels of play whereas good spore crawler placement and sim city can be done at almost any level. Zerg players sit here and say Terran should just l2p, but really when did Zerg do the same? They didn't do anything to innovate against 5 rax reaper, 2 rax bunker pressure against hatch first, bfh helion and marine elevators, and they could have just had better reaction times yet instead medivac speed gets nerfed, etc yet they're allowed to whine and get buffs? Nice double standards there. I'll use your argument against you. Why didn't you just play like Nestea when he went undefeated in one of his Code S runs? Or why weren't you doing what Fruitdealer did when Terran was supposedly OP yet Zerg wins the first GSL? It's a terrible argument as you see.
I never see anyone argue against this for some reason. Go figure.
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Damn, Keen, Ghosts did really win you the game vs Zerg!
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On August 20 2012 06:53 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:45 InSpiReZerG wrote:On August 20 2012 06:42 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:34 DebtSC2 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz. Hm. You must not be watching good zergs, as it is quite easy with range 5 queens to deny all hellion runbys if the zerg is not absolutely awful. Perhaps you only watch your own games? Your argument is flawed, that depends on the map a lot, and if the Zerg has pushed with the Queens, or is guarding the chokes with them. Queens still do terrible damage, you can destroy the Hellions if they stand there, or if they fight with the Queens, you absolutely can't destroy Hellions if they just run-by. Even on creep, Queens are damn slow. Sure, those Hellions will die if they run-by, but you are going to kill a lot of drones anyway. Amen bro. I really feel like most complaints here are coming from Bronze league/ stream watchers. anyone playing the game at current balance knows Terran lategame trouble has nothing to do with queen balance. I really feel like most of the "Zerg defense force" and "everything is fine" crowd are Zergs with under 1k posts.
Everything is fine.
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I agree with avilo,the slight increased speed to ravens alone won't help in real battle situations.
It will only make it easier to keep the raven with your army,without it falling behind due to slower speed.
A raven costs 100m/200g,60seconds to build and requires an additional research for HSM.
You have to wait another 3minutes for it to fill up enough energy for HSM and be able to be of use.
Once you fire a HSM,they are dead flying paper that won't be able to assist in combat for at least 1-3 more minutes.
HSM has a casting range of 6,meanwhile an infestor can reach a raven from an 9(11) range away.
Both FG and HSM can be devastating if they reach a clumped up group of units,however it is too easy for infestors to deny Ravens from even firing HSMs and killing them without them being able to retreat or fire anything.
We may as well consider Ravens flying banelings at this point,since they are usually only able to fire none or one HSM and then die,making them very inefficient both in resources and time cost for what they provide.
The only reason ravens are considered amazing sometimes,is because zergs clump up their army and are not used to spreading their army like a terran has to do constantly against banelings and infestors.A good zerg player will spread his army while attacking; while also fungaling/NP any ravens that try to get close,making HSM not much of a threat.
I think they should change HSM casting range to 7 or even 8 in addition to the speed buff.
This will give a better chance for ravens to cast their HSMs before they are locked down or killed, as well as a chance to escape from combat and live to fight another battle.
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On August 20 2012 05:19 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:56 NiteshadeSC2 wrote:On August 20 2012 04:05 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Talking about map hack, what about sensor towers? Oh right, those things are really really expensive... Apples to apples, oranges to oranges please. Creep costs neither minerals nor gas. Creep self-replicates in any direction the player wishes. Creep requires detection to eliminate. Creep provides a speed buff to most units (some exceptions). Terran and Protoss cannot build next to a creep tumor. Creep (or rather the tumors) allow for the vision of the exact unit type over it (save for cloaked). Creep does not appear on the minimap without first scouting it with a unit. VS: The sensor tower does not do any of the above. They are not the same, not even close. Best, Niteshade Exactly what I was talking about in the comment just before yours. You just ignored everything what Sensor Tower can do, while listing everything what Creep is doing and said how they are different. The perfect example of what was I talking about.
It appears that Niteshade seemed to out-logic you. Please study basic logic before trying to refute someone's argument..
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On August 20 2012 07:34 Kwanny wrote:
Damn, Keen, Ghosts did really win you the game vs Zerg!
Miracles never cease to exist ^_^
Keen is so much better than people give him credit for.
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EPT
