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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 20 2012 04:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:36 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:23 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:14 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 03:57 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 03:54 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 03:06 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 03:03 Zergrusher wrote:
guys
listen to me on this ok?
Look at the cast ranges of the ravens spells..... they are pathetic!
PDD and Auto turret cast range is 3!
Blizzard should buff the cast ranges to 6
Seeker missle cast range should be buffed from 6 to 8
Because right now any time you try yo deploy a spell from a raven(regardless of match up) your more then likey TO LOSE the raven itself.
Because simply the cast range is to short for all the spells. And on the flip side it's spells are really good after deployed. It seems to work out, so why would you change them that drastically? lets think about this. The raven is a support caster... but it will die trying to do the spells that are used to support. see how flawed that logic is? Who says it is a support caster? Some blizzard help text? think about it logically. also its supposed to be the spiritual sucessor to the science vessel I think about it logically. Blizzard made a unit called the Raven, gave it a bunch of abilities and gave it to the players of SC2 to develop a role for it and then balance it accordingly. It turned out not to be a support caster, but a unit that is mostly used as lategame antiair unit, used against compositions that can kill it as well. look at all the ravens spells. they are supportive in nature. also look at the tech postion/upgrades of the raven, Saying its not a supportive caster is like saying the spine crawler is not a defensive structure. and spellcasters by nature are supportive. No, HSM is not a support spell. It's a biggass damage dealer. PDD defends units around it. Does not mean that you have to use other units that the raven supports. PDD defends the Raven just as well. Auto Turret: many applications, defends or attacks a location. For example the Raven. And no, spellcasters are not support by nature. Infestor is basically standalone. Science Vessel in BW is basically standalone against Zerg. (that does not mean that either of them should be used on its own. But they can deal quite well with everything) As long as you have enough energy (which you have with vessel, raven, infestor when you mass them), they can fight properly on their own.
I'm abit concerned about what you understand about game design 0_o
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On August 20 2012 04:04 Xonix wrote:
Guys lets be totally honest with the game play right now. In the history of sc2 there has been many things that have supposibly "broke" the game. If you want to beat a zerg, don't keep doing the same thing you lose with and cry until a patch comes out... take action and develop a new strategy to beat a zerg. Simple as that
Its not simple as that. Reactor Hellions were the standard build for a reason. They provide map control because they are so fast and are so strong against lings. You can´t just run around with marines like that to kill creep. Thus the creep gets out of hand and you can´t do anything about it.
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I thought Raven use at IEM was pretty damn cool this weekend. I'm quite excited to see if the meta continues to evolve to incorporate them more regularly.
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On August 20 2012 04:56 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:50 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:23 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:14 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 03:57 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 03:54 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 03:06 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 03:03 Zergrusher wrote:
guys
listen to me on this ok?
Look at the cast ranges of the ravens spells..... they are pathetic!
PDD and Auto turret cast range is 3!
Blizzard should buff the cast ranges to 6
Seeker missle cast range should be buffed from 6 to 8
Because right now any time you try yo deploy a spell from a raven(regardless of match up) your more then likey TO LOSE the raven itself.
Because simply the cast range is to short for all the spells. And on the flip side it's spells are really good after deployed. It seems to work out, so why would you change them that drastically? lets think about this. The raven is a support caster... but it will die trying to do the spells that are used to support. see how flawed that logic is? Who says it is a support caster? Some blizzard help text? think about it logically. also its supposed to be the spiritual sucessor to the science vessel I think about it logically. Blizzard made a unit called the Raven, gave it a bunch of abilities and gave it to the players of SC2 to develop a role for it and then balance it accordingly. It turned out not to be a support caster, but a unit that is mostly used as lategame antiair unit, used against compositions that can kill it as well. look at all the ravens spells. they are supportive in nature. also look at the tech postion/upgrades of the raven, Saying its not a supportive caster is like saying the spine crawler is not a defensive structure. and spellcasters by nature are supportive. No, HSM is not a support spell. It's a biggass damage dealer. PDD defends units around it. Does not mean that you have to use other units that the raven supports. PDD defends the Raven just as well. Auto Turret: many applications, defends or attacks a location. For example the Raven. And no, spellcasters are not support by nature. Infestor is basically standalone. Science Vessel in BW is basically standalone against Zerg. (that does not mean that either of them should be used on its own. But they can deal quite well with everything) As long as you have enough energy (which you have with vessel, raven, infestor when you mass them), they can fight properly on their own. I'm abit concerned about what you understand about game design 0_o
OK, so please define what a support unit is.
From my understanding, it is a unit that cannot fight properly on it's own, but provides something extra to protect the rest of your army, fill niche roles or just strengthens your army.
The Raven can fight properly on it's own. Not against everything (for example vikings, infestors or ultras), but against a big variety of stuff.
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we've barely had time to even see how the raven will improve terran, and yet here you are telling us terran is UP... AGAIN
come on man, don't you have anything better to do? I think it would be wiser to keep practicing.
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On August 20 2012 05:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:56 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:50 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:23 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:14 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 03:57 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 03:54 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 03:06 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 03:03 Zergrusher wrote:
guys
listen to me on this ok?
Look at the cast ranges of the ravens spells..... they are pathetic!
PDD and Auto turret cast range is 3!
Blizzard should buff the cast ranges to 6
Seeker missle cast range should be buffed from 6 to 8
Because right now any time you try yo deploy a spell from a raven(regardless of match up) your more then likey TO LOSE the raven itself.
Because simply the cast range is to short for all the spells. And on the flip side it's spells are really good after deployed. It seems to work out, so why would you change them that drastically? lets think about this. The raven is a support caster... but it will die trying to do the spells that are used to support. see how flawed that logic is? Who says it is a support caster? Some blizzard help text? think about it logically. also its supposed to be the spiritual sucessor to the science vessel I think about it logically. Blizzard made a unit called the Raven, gave it a bunch of abilities and gave it to the players of SC2 to develop a role for it and then balance it accordingly. It turned out not to be a support caster, but a unit that is mostly used as lategame antiair unit, used against compositions that can kill it as well. look at all the ravens spells. they are supportive in nature. also look at the tech postion/upgrades of the raven, Saying its not a supportive caster is like saying the spine crawler is not a defensive structure. and spellcasters by nature are supportive. No, HSM is not a support spell. It's a biggass damage dealer. PDD defends units around it. Does not mean that you have to use other units that the raven supports. PDD defends the Raven just as well. Auto Turret: many applications, defends or attacks a location. For example the Raven. And no, spellcasters are not support by nature. Infestor is basically standalone. Science Vessel in BW is basically standalone against Zerg. (that does not mean that either of them should be used on its own. But they can deal quite well with everything) As long as you have enough energy (which you have with vessel, raven, infestor when you mass them), they can fight properly on their own. I'm abit concerned about what you understand about game design 0_o OK, so please define what a support unit is. From my understanding, it is a unit that cannot fight properly on it's own, but provides something extra to protect the rest of your army, fill niche roles or just strengthens your army. The Raven can fight properly on it's own. Not against everything (for example vikings, infestors or ultras), but against a big variety of stuff.
1) the raven is that "cannot fight properly on its own"
2) PDD and auto turrets fill the "something extra to protect your army"
3) as a supportive caster it does "Strengthen your army" if you know how to use it.
also SM and Auto turrets can help fill the offensive need and in auto turrets case possible harassment.
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On August 20 2012 05:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:56 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:50 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:23 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:14 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 03:57 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 03:54 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 03:06 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 03:03 Zergrusher wrote:
guys
listen to me on this ok?
Look at the cast ranges of the ravens spells..... they are pathetic!
PDD and Auto turret cast range is 3!
Blizzard should buff the cast ranges to 6
Seeker missle cast range should be buffed from 6 to 8
Because right now any time you try yo deploy a spell from a raven(regardless of match up) your more then likey TO LOSE the raven itself.
Because simply the cast range is to short for all the spells. And on the flip side it's spells are really good after deployed. It seems to work out, so why would you change them that drastically? lets think about this. The raven is a support caster... but it will die trying to do the spells that are used to support. see how flawed that logic is? Who says it is a support caster? Some blizzard help text? think about it logically. also its supposed to be the spiritual sucessor to the science vessel I think about it logically. Blizzard made a unit called the Raven, gave it a bunch of abilities and gave it to the players of SC2 to develop a role for it and then balance it accordingly. It turned out not to be a support caster, but a unit that is mostly used as lategame antiair unit, used against compositions that can kill it as well. look at all the ravens spells. they are supportive in nature. also look at the tech postion/upgrades of the raven, Saying its not a supportive caster is like saying the spine crawler is not a defensive structure. and spellcasters by nature are supportive. No, HSM is not a support spell. It's a biggass damage dealer. PDD defends units around it. Does not mean that you have to use other units that the raven supports. PDD defends the Raven just as well. Auto Turret: many applications, defends or attacks a location. For example the Raven. And no, spellcasters are not support by nature. Infestor is basically standalone. Science Vessel in BW is basically standalone against Zerg. (that does not mean that either of them should be used on its own. But they can deal quite well with everything) As long as you have enough energy (which you have with vessel, raven, infestor when you mass them), they can fight properly on their own. I'm abit concerned about what you understand about game design 0_o OK, so please define what a support unit is. From my understanding, it is a unit that cannot fight properly on it's own, but provides something extra to protect the rest of your army, fill niche roles or just strengthens your army. The Raven can fight properly on it's own. Not against everything (for example vikings, infestors or ultras), but against a big variety of stuff.
According to your logic then Infestors and HT are NOT supporting units
because they can fight properly on their own too.
Infestors = Use Infested Terran to attack
HT = Storm units that is attacking them and merge them into Archons
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If you look at the bigger picture you can see the design intention behind the spellcasters in SC2.
Protoss have a tier 1 spellcaster (Sentry) and a generic land spellcaster with an AoE ability (Templar storm).
Zerg have only a generic land spellcaster with an AoE ability, but does not need to research it's AoE (Infestor fungal).
Terran have a generic land spellcaster with an AoE ability that is mainly effective against protoss at the moment due to the snipe nerf (Ghost) and a tier 3 spellcaster (Raven) which has it's AoE damage ability behind because it's a flying unit (which can be overpowered if they increased the HSM range by only a bit).
To solve the problem, they should just increase Ghost Snipe damage against massive biological units!
This fixes a direct balance issue that is being complained about, though I personally think a good player should be able to rush Ravens.
Another way to 'fix' the problem is slightly reduce the cost of Ravens (from 200 gas down to maybe 175).
Just my 2 cents.
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If at first you don't succeed, Cry Cry Again. Tell your balance problems to MVP. Suggestion: spend your time studying better players instead of doing the same thing and expecting it to miraculously work.
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This threads become another largely Terran whine thread - probably what it was meant to do as, now that I think of it, I don't recall the OP asking for any Zerg opinion. It's good to see so many game designers on TL though. Real refreshing.
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On August 20 2012 04:56 NiteshadeSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:05 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Talking about map hack, what about sensor towers? Oh right, those things are really really expensive... Apples to apples, oranges to oranges please. Creep costs neither minerals nor gas. Creep self-replicates in any direction the player wishes. Creep requires detection to eliminate. Creep provides a speed buff to most units (some exceptions). Terran and Protoss cannot build next to a creep tumor. Creep (or rather the tumors) allow for the vision of the exact unit type over it (save for cloaked). Creep does not appear on the minimap without first scouting it with a unit. VS: The sensor tower does not do any of the above. They are not the same, not even close. Best, Niteshade
Exactly what I was talking about in the comment just before yours. You just ignored everything what Sensor Tower can do, while listing everything what Creep is doing and said how they are different. The perfect example of what was I talking about.
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I really think the Raven speed buff will do more for pure air tvp than tvz. I used to do a 200 energy raven 4 banshee timing that could destroy expos and tech while letting me expo and tech. This will probably make stuff like that more powerful - and it will allow for easier sniping of observers with pure air builds.
For tvz, I think Avilo is right. Fungal shuts down the Raven very hard. But if you get a good composition with a lot of tanks, thors, vikings and ravens, terran becomes very powerful even against broodlord/infestor. Auto turret spam also lets you be in 2-3 places at once on maps like Antiga or Shakuras, if you've managed to win the first big fight. It's very hard for zerg to deal with a lot of turrets in their main with their reinforcing units. The problem is getting to that composition...
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On August 20 2012 05:18 aZealot wrote:
This threads become another largely Terran whine thread - probably what it was meant to do as, now that I think of it, I don't recall the OP asking for any Zerg opinion. It's good to see so many game designers on TL though. Real refreshing.
Thread from Avilo, what did you expect? Everyone to agree with him?
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On August 20 2012 05:14 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:05 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:56 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:50 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:23 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:14 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 03:57 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 03:54 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 03:06 Big J wrote:
[quote]
And on the flip side it's spells are really good after deployed. It seems to work out, so why would you change them that drastically? lets think about this. The raven is a support caster... but it will die trying to do the spells that are used to support. see how flawed that logic is? Who says it is a support caster? Some blizzard help text? think about it logically. also its supposed to be the spiritual sucessor to the science vessel I think about it logically. Blizzard made a unit called the Raven, gave it a bunch of abilities and gave it to the players of SC2 to develop a role for it and then balance it accordingly. It turned out not to be a support caster, but a unit that is mostly used as lategame antiair unit, used against compositions that can kill it as well. look at all the ravens spells. they are supportive in nature. also look at the tech postion/upgrades of the raven, Saying its not a supportive caster is like saying the spine crawler is not a defensive structure. and spellcasters by nature are supportive. No, HSM is not a support spell. It's a biggass damage dealer. PDD defends units around it. Does not mean that you have to use other units that the raven supports. PDD defends the Raven just as well. Auto Turret: many applications, defends or attacks a location. For example the Raven. And no, spellcasters are not support by nature. Infestor is basically standalone. Science Vessel in BW is basically standalone against Zerg. (that does not mean that either of them should be used on its own. But they can deal quite well with everything) As long as you have enough energy (which you have with vessel, raven, infestor when you mass them), they can fight properly on their own. I'm abit concerned about what you understand about game design 0_o OK, so please define what a support unit is. From my understanding, it is a unit that cannot fight properly on it's own, but provides something extra to protect the rest of your army, fill niche roles or just strengthens your army. The Raven can fight properly on it's own. Not against everything (for example vikings, infestors or ultras), but against a big variety of stuff. According to your logic then Infestors and HT are NOT supporting units because they can fight properly on their own too. Infestors = Use Infested Terran to attack HT = Storm units that is attacking them and merge them into Archons
Infestors aren't support units. If the infestor was a support unit, then noone would be talking about mass infestor.
HTs are support units, because storms dont stack.
Archons are not support units.
On August 20 2012 05:10 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:05 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:56 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:50 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:23 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:14 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 03:57 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 03:54 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 03:06 Big J wrote:
[quote]
And on the flip side it's spells are really good after deployed. It seems to work out, so why would you change them that drastically? lets think about this. The raven is a support caster... but it will die trying to do the spells that are used to support. see how flawed that logic is? Who says it is a support caster? Some blizzard help text? think about it logically. also its supposed to be the spiritual sucessor to the science vessel I think about it logically. Blizzard made a unit called the Raven, gave it a bunch of abilities and gave it to the players of SC2 to develop a role for it and then balance it accordingly. It turned out not to be a support caster, but a unit that is mostly used as lategame antiair unit, used against compositions that can kill it as well. look at all the ravens spells. they are supportive in nature. also look at the tech postion/upgrades of the raven, Saying its not a supportive caster is like saying the spine crawler is not a defensive structure. and spellcasters by nature are supportive. No, HSM is not a support spell. It's a biggass damage dealer. PDD defends units around it. Does not mean that you have to use other units that the raven supports. PDD defends the Raven just as well. Auto Turret: many applications, defends or attacks a location. For example the Raven. And no, spellcasters are not support by nature. Infestor is basically standalone. Science Vessel in BW is basically standalone against Zerg. (that does not mean that either of them should be used on its own. But they can deal quite well with everything) As long as you have enough energy (which you have with vessel, raven, infestor when you mass them), they can fight properly on their own. I'm abit concerned about what you understand about game design 0_o OK, so please define what a support unit is. From my understanding, it is a unit that cannot fight properly on it's own, but provides something extra to protect the rest of your army, fill niche roles or just strengthens your army. The Raven can fight properly on it's own. Not against everything (for example vikings, infestors or ultras), but against a big variety of stuff. 1) the raven is that "cannot fight properly on its own" 2) PDD and auto turrets fill the "something extra to protect your army" 3) as a supportive caster it does "Strengthen your army" if you know how to use it. also SM and Auto turrets can help fill the offensive need and in auto turrets case possible harassment.
Well, it actually can fight properly on its own, that's why TvZ and TvT lategame is a lot about mass raven.
It just is too expensive to go mass raven from the start, but that doesn't mean it's a support unit. You can't go mass Broodlord from the start, and that one is neither a support unit.
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On August 20 2012 05:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:14 jidolboy wrote:On August 20 2012 05:05 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:56 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:50 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:23 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:14 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 03:57 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 03:54 Zergrusher wrote:
[quote]
lets think about this.
The raven is a support caster... but it will die trying to do the spells that are used to support.
see how flawed that logic is? Who says it is a support caster? Some blizzard help text? think about it logically. also its supposed to be the spiritual sucessor to the science vessel I think about it logically. Blizzard made a unit called the Raven, gave it a bunch of abilities and gave it to the players of SC2 to develop a role for it and then balance it accordingly. It turned out not to be a support caster, but a unit that is mostly used as lategame antiair unit, used against compositions that can kill it as well. look at all the ravens spells. they are supportive in nature. also look at the tech postion/upgrades of the raven, Saying its not a supportive caster is like saying the spine crawler is not a defensive structure. and spellcasters by nature are supportive. No, HSM is not a support spell. It's a biggass damage dealer. PDD defends units around it. Does not mean that you have to use other units that the raven supports. PDD defends the Raven just as well. Auto Turret: many applications, defends or attacks a location. For example the Raven. And no, spellcasters are not support by nature. Infestor is basically standalone. Science Vessel in BW is basically standalone against Zerg. (that does not mean that either of them should be used on its own. But they can deal quite well with everything) As long as you have enough energy (which you have with vessel, raven, infestor when you mass them), they can fight properly on their own. I'm abit concerned about what you understand about game design 0_o OK, so please define what a support unit is. From my understanding, it is a unit that cannot fight properly on it's own, but provides something extra to protect the rest of your army, fill niche roles or just strengthens your army. The Raven can fight properly on it's own. Not against everything (for example vikings, infestors or ultras), but against a big variety of stuff. According to your logic then Infestors and HT are NOT supporting units because they can fight properly on their own too. Infestors = Use Infested Terran to attack HT = Storm units that is attacking them and merge them into Archons Infestors aren't support units. If the infestor was a support unit, then noone would be talking about mass infestor. HTs are support units, because storms dont stack. Archons are not support units.
Infestors are supporting units.
If you attack let's say MMM with just Infestors with nothing else, you will lose majority, if not all of your unit
However, if you attacked with lings,blings and infestors, then you can demolish other player's unit or lose some of your units.
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On August 20 2012 05:25 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:20 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 05:14 jidolboy wrote:On August 20 2012 05:05 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:56 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:50 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:23 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:14 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 03:57 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Who says it is a support caster? Some blizzard help text? think about it logically. also its supposed to be the spiritual sucessor to the science vessel I think about it logically. Blizzard made a unit called the Raven, gave it a bunch of abilities and gave it to the players of SC2 to develop a role for it and then balance it accordingly. It turned out not to be a support caster, but a unit that is mostly used as lategame antiair unit, used against compositions that can kill it as well. look at all the ravens spells. they are supportive in nature. also look at the tech postion/upgrades of the raven, Saying its not a supportive caster is like saying the spine crawler is not a defensive structure. and spellcasters by nature are supportive. No, HSM is not a support spell. It's a biggass damage dealer. PDD defends units around it. Does not mean that you have to use other units that the raven supports. PDD defends the Raven just as well. Auto Turret: many applications, defends or attacks a location. For example the Raven. And no, spellcasters are not support by nature. Infestor is basically standalone. Science Vessel in BW is basically standalone against Zerg. (that does not mean that either of them should be used on its own. But they can deal quite well with everything) As long as you have enough energy (which you have with vessel, raven, infestor when you mass them), they can fight properly on their own. I'm abit concerned about what you understand about game design 0_o OK, so please define what a support unit is. From my understanding, it is a unit that cannot fight properly on it's own, but provides something extra to protect the rest of your army, fill niche roles or just strengthens your army. The Raven can fight properly on it's own. Not against everything (for example vikings, infestors or ultras), but against a big variety of stuff. According to your logic then Infestors and HT are NOT supporting units because they can fight properly on their own too. Infestors = Use Infested Terran to attack HT = Storm units that is attacking them and merge them into Archons Infestors aren't support units. If the infestor was a support unit, then noone would be talking about mass infestor. HTs are support units, because storms dont stack. Archons are not support units. Infestors are supporting units. If you attack let's say MMM with just Infestors with nothing else, you will lose majority, if not all of your unit However, if you attacked with lings,blings and infestors, then you can demolish other player's unit or lose some of your units.
same thing vis versa; if you only go ling/bling, mass MMM can deal with that. But with infestors, it gets pretty tough.
Does that mean that ling/bling is a support? No!
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On August 20 2012 05:27 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:25 jidolboy wrote:On August 20 2012 05:20 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 05:14 jidolboy wrote:On August 20 2012 05:05 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:56 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:50 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:23 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:14 Zergrusher wrote:
[quote]
think about it logically.
also its supposed to be the spiritual sucessor to the science vessel I think about it logically. Blizzard made a unit called the Raven, gave it a bunch of abilities and gave it to the players of SC2 to develop a role for it and then balance it accordingly. It turned out not to be a support caster, but a unit that is mostly used as lategame antiair unit, used against compositions that can kill it as well. look at all the ravens spells. they are supportive in nature. also look at the tech postion/upgrades of the raven, Saying its not a supportive caster is like saying the spine crawler is not a defensive structure. and spellcasters by nature are supportive. No, HSM is not a support spell. It's a biggass damage dealer. PDD defends units around it. Does not mean that you have to use other units that the raven supports. PDD defends the Raven just as well. Auto Turret: many applications, defends or attacks a location. For example the Raven. And no, spellcasters are not support by nature. Infestor is basically standalone. Science Vessel in BW is basically standalone against Zerg. (that does not mean that either of them should be used on its own. But they can deal quite well with everything) As long as you have enough energy (which you have with vessel, raven, infestor when you mass them), they can fight properly on their own. I'm abit concerned about what you understand about game design 0_o OK, so please define what a support unit is. From my understanding, it is a unit that cannot fight properly on it's own, but provides something extra to protect the rest of your army, fill niche roles or just strengthens your army. The Raven can fight properly on it's own. Not against everything (for example vikings, infestors or ultras), but against a big variety of stuff. According to your logic then Infestors and HT are NOT supporting units because they can fight properly on their own too. Infestors = Use Infested Terran to attack HT = Storm units that is attacking them and merge them into Archons Infestors aren't support units. If the infestor was a support unit, then noone would be talking about mass infestor. HTs are support units, because storms dont stack. Archons are not support units. Infestors are supporting units. If you attack let's say MMM with just Infestors with nothing else, you will lose majority, if not all of your unit However, if you attacked with lings,blings and infestors, then you can demolish other player's unit or lose some of your units. same thing vis versa; if you only go ling/bling, mass MMM can deal with that. But with infestors, it gets pretty tough. Does that mean that ling/bling is a support? No!
Sure, It gets tough, but Infestors aren't necessary to attack other player's unit. However, if you try to attack with Infestor alone then you will get fucked because they aren't meant to be used offensively.
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On August 20 2012 05:30 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:27 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 05:25 jidolboy wrote:On August 20 2012 05:20 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 05:14 jidolboy wrote:On August 20 2012 05:05 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:56 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:50 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Zergrusher wrote:On August 20 2012 04:23 Big J wrote:
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I think about it logically. Blizzard made a unit called the Raven, gave it a bunch of abilities and gave it to the players of SC2 to develop a role for it and then balance it accordingly. It turned out not to be a support caster, but a unit that is mostly used as lategame antiair unit, used against compositions that can kill it as well. look at all the ravens spells. they are supportive in nature. also look at the tech postion/upgrades of the raven, Saying its not a supportive caster is like saying the spine crawler is not a defensive structure. and spellcasters by nature are supportive. No, HSM is not a support spell. It's a biggass damage dealer. PDD defends units around it. Does not mean that you have to use other units that the raven supports. PDD defends the Raven just as well. Auto Turret: many applications, defends or attacks a location. For example the Raven. And no, spellcasters are not support by nature. Infestor is basically standalone. Science Vessel in BW is basically standalone against Zerg. (that does not mean that either of them should be used on its own. But they can deal quite well with everything) As long as you have enough energy (which you have with vessel, raven, infestor when you mass them), they can fight properly on their own. I'm abit concerned about what you understand about game design 0_o OK, so please define what a support unit is. From my understanding, it is a unit that cannot fight properly on it's own, but provides something extra to protect the rest of your army, fill niche roles or just strengthens your army. The Raven can fight properly on it's own. Not against everything (for example vikings, infestors or ultras), but against a big variety of stuff. According to your logic then Infestors and HT are NOT supporting units because they can fight properly on their own too. Infestors = Use Infested Terran to attack HT = Storm units that is attacking them and merge them into Archons Infestors aren't support units. If the infestor was a support unit, then noone would be talking about mass infestor. HTs are support units, because storms dont stack. Archons are not support units. Infestors are supporting units. If you attack let's say MMM with just Infestors with nothing else, you will lose majority, if not all of your unit However, if you attacked with lings,blings and infestors, then you can demolish other player's unit or lose some of your units. same thing vis versa; if you only go ling/bling, mass MMM can deal with that. But with infestors, it gets pretty tough. Does that mean that ling/bling is a support? No! Sure, It gets tough, but Infestors aren't necessary to attack other player's unit. However, if you try to attack with Infestor alone then you will get fucked because they aren't meant to be used offensively.
No you are not fucked. ZvZ tends to come down to mass infestor vs mass infestor a lot, TvZ we see numbers of 15+ infestors in the lategame quite commonly.
IT + fungal is standalone. Again, that does not mean that 9.5 range artillery, additional anti air or just cheap stuff that fights quite well, or even better, synergizes with fungal (like blings and ultras) isn't superior. But that doesn't mean that the infestor only has a support role.
Look at MMM. Is the marine a support unit? No. Is pure marine superior to MMM? Usually not. It makes your composition more well rounded.
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I think it would be cool if they increased the movement speed on ravens, I think We terran players should be happy over ANY buff we get. Finaly it´s not another nerf Happening.
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On August 20 2012 05:17 InSpiReZerG wrote:
If at first you don't succeed, Cry Cry Again. Tell your balance problems to MVP. Suggestion: spend your time studying better players instead of doing the same thing and expecting it to miraculously work.
So there are no balance issues because there are 2 players doing well?
I guess by that logic the game was completely balanced at release as well. After all, Fruitdealer and Nestea both won the first two GSLs! If anything, Zerg was too strong back then.
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EPT
