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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 20 2012 05:19 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Exactly what I was talking about in the comment just before yours. You just ignored everything what Sensor Tower can do, while listing everything what Creep is doing and said how they are different. The perfect example of what was I talking about.
My apologies. I interpreted what you said as a "the sensor tower is an equivalent to creep" statement. I misunderstood. Again, my apologies.
If you would like me to list the differences a tower is to creep I don't think that it would be any different.
I do not feel that broodlords, creep or queens give Zerg an "edge". Certainly the queen gives zerg some "edge", but moreso I feel that it gives them an adequate defence to the was-too-common hellion harrass. Now, you have to harrass differently.
What i do feel is imbalanced, is the infestor; more specifically fungal growth. I feel the infestors ability to control unit movement is a huge edge. How fungals can stop air units from moving is beyond me.
Even forcefields can be flown over.
But I've learned to adapt to zerg. Simply put: attack before infestors can have fungals 
Best, Niteshade
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On August 20 2012 05:01 MrBitter wrote:
I thought Raven use at IEM was pretty damn cool this weekend. I'm quite excited to see if the meta continues to evolve to incorporate them more regularly.
I doubt people will incorporate them any more on the basis of that "buff" alone. Your casting is ok mr. Bitter, but your zerg bias is always evident. To be honest, I'd like to hear what Koreans have to say about the Raven and the patch. If anyone has interviews or context, I'd like to see it.
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On August 20 2012 08:11 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:34 Kwanny wrote:
Damn, Keen, Ghosts did really win you the game vs Zerg! Miracles never cease to exist ^_^ Keen is so much better than people give him credit for.
He was sarcastic, he went ghosts to deal with infestors and killed 3 the entire game and the rest just got destroyed. The ghosts pretty much lost him the game since they were a huge waste of resources.
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On August 20 2012 08:12 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:01 MrBitter wrote:
I thought Raven use at IEM was pretty damn cool this weekend. I'm quite excited to see if the meta continues to evolve to incorporate them more regularly. I doubt people will incorporate them any more on the basis of that "buff" alone. Your casting is ok mr. Bitter, but your zerg bias is always evident. To be honest, I'd like to hear what Koreans have to say about the Raven and the patch. If anyone has interviews or context, I'd like to see it.
how is he zerg biased, he said the games he saw that terrans used ravens were cool
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On August 20 2012 04:02 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:53 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 03:22 zmansman17 wrote:On August 20 2012 02:27 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 02:21 zmansman17 wrote:On August 20 2012 02:20 AngryMag wrote:
not 100% sure but I think Terran players won the last 4 offline events (Taeja's two tourney wins, Kas won the eastern Euro tournament with Korean participants and now MVP won IEM). I think these successes mean that eventual issues in in TvZ are atleast largely exagerated.
In my lowbob opinion, I do not see issues at all if I watch tournament play, there was only a period of Terrans adjusting to Zerg's multiqueen play postpatch. Yes but have you looked at how many Terrans have won in the last 200 tournaments? Ok, so they won a few recent tournaments, but that is dwarfed by the results of many, many before it. The discussion is about the balance right now, which is determined by the latest events. And your arguement is just wrong: Premier Tournaments this year: 21 Terran wins: 11 other races wins: 10 Premier Tournemts last year: 40 Terran wins: 20 other races wins: 20 With 3races, Terran has won >50% of the biggest tournaments in the last one and a half year. Where have you been when you think they are not winning enough tournaments? Wrong once again. Check out TLPD: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues#tblt-19766-9-0-DESCWhy don't you do everyone a favor and count how many Terrans won the most Recent tournaments (Post-Patch) for pages 1 and 2. But you can even go more if you want.... No, not wrong at all. It clearly said Premier Tournaments (even though I made a typo the second time I wrote it) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_TournamentsCount it yourself if you don't believe me. And yes, I really don't care about those one night 50€ regional online tournaments, played in Bo1s that some random GM player wins, as he is the only one at this level. You could as well just post EU and US Grandmaster race distribution, as it basically says exactly the same. Actually, your interpretation of the data is still flawed. Given that we are talking about Post-Patch, we would need only reference the Tournaments since the patch in early May. And granted, this is if we accept these tournaments over TLPD numbers, which I do not. Therefore, I will include both numbers. But even using these numbers, we are left with these tournaments: August IEM Season VII - Global Challenge Cologne IEM $31,800 24 Mvp Nerchio August ASUS ROG Summer 2012 ASUS ROG $30,000 32 TaeJa MC July TeamLiquid StarLeague 4 TSL $34,500 32 July 2012 MLG Summer Arena MLG $26,400 32 TaeJa Alicia July HomeStory Cup V HomeStory $25,000 32 Nerchio YongHwa June 2012 DreamHack Open - Summer DreamHack $29,770 128 MaNa DIMAGA June 2012 MLG Spring Championship MLG $76,000 32 DongRaeGu Alicia May 2012 GSL Season 3 GSL $147,920 32 Seed MC May 2012 MLG Spring Arena 2 MLG $26,400 32 viOLet Symbol Including MVP and his most recent win at IEM, we have a Grand Total of 3 Terrans out of 16 for Winners and Runner-Ups.
So even using your Data and Ignoring All the Other Tournaments, which still recruit the Best players in the world, and a large number of participants, There aren't many Terrans. However, if we use TLPD and all the Recent Tournaments since the Patch, we have 34 Terran winners to 240 Zerg and Protoss Tournament Winners. So it looks like you fail to interpret data. Check for yourself: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/leagues/index.php?section=sc2-international&type=individual&tabulator_page=9&tabulator_order_col=0&tabulator_order_desc=1&tabulator_search=#tblt-20607-1-0-DESC
As a purely factual statement, one could say Terrans are under-represented (If we accept a proportion of 1:3 to be representative) in recent tournament results as determined by winners and runner-ups for both "premier" and all other "recorded" tournaments on TLPD. I'm not making any sweeping conclusions here.
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I wish people in this thread (and in the community in general) realize that they are just bad players. As a Terran, you're not playing DRG, viOLet, Stephano or Life; you're playing Random Scrub Diamond Zerg #22354.
I am a 1.1k masters Z; I am awful. I get rolled by better Terrans often -- I think it's probably about a 50/50 matchup for me. I am confident in it but I still lose often to players of my own skill. For everyone below GM, you are making so many countless mistakes (myself included) that balance is an absurd abstract for you to be complaining about. Queen range and fungal aren't beating you -- you're beating yourself because you're fucking awful.
At the highest level, it is perhaps slightly Zerg favored; yet, Terrans continue to compete -- and win -- major events. As a member of the 99.9% scrubhood, I implore you to improve the myriad of things you're bad at. You'll beat the other scrub zergs you're playing, I promise.
<3 gl hf
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On August 20 2012 08:18 IPA wrote:
I wish people in this thread (and in the community in general) realize that they are just bad players. As a Terran, you're not playing DRG, viOLet, Stephano or Life; you're playing Random Scrub Diamond Zerg #22354.
I am a 1.1k masters Z; I am awful. I get rolled by better Terrans often -- I think it's probably about a 50/50 matchup for me. I am confident in it but I still lose often to players of my own skill. For everyone below GM, you are making so many countless mistakes (myself included) that balance is an absurd abstract for you to be complaining about. Queen range and fungal aren't beating you -- you're beating yourself because you're fucking awful.
At the highest level, it is perhaps slightly Zerg favored; yet, Terrans continue to compete -- and win -- major events. As a member of the 99.9% scrubhood, I implore you to improve the myriad of things you're bad at. You'll beat the other scrub zergs you're playing, I promise.
<3 gl hf
I think the principal issue is not that TvZ is heavily zerg favored at the top level. In fact, as a low master terran, I don't think it is. If one can make use of the terran race to its full potential, it may very well be the strongest race in the game.
The issue is the skill disparity required. Although one can never provide exact numbers for this sort of thing, I think its sort of like this: at 200 apm Terran can be used to 65% of its potential, while Zerg can be used to 85% of its potential. So two low level, equally skilled players play eachother, the Zerg is heavily favored. However when both races can be played to their full potential, Terran may very well be stronger.
There are so many things that Terran can work on. It has much, much, much more micro potential, much more potential for build variety and innovation. A Terran that plays 12 hours a day and has alot of talent can make use of all of the difficult to realize strengths of the race. A Zerg that plays 12 hours a day runs out of stuff to perfect/practice much sooner. The race is just much simpler in almost every aspect. Mid master Terrans cannot control their armies anywhere near the efficacy Taeja could, but most mid master Zergs can control their army very nearly as well as a pro player. Of course pro zergs are better at many other things, that's why they are pro's, but I think there is a much bigger gap between top level Terrans and just below top, than there is between top level Zergs and just below top, etc.
Does that make any sense?
To add to that:
I think for HOTS, Blizzard should be working on increasing the skill ceiling of Zerg and Protoss, and not in any way decreasing the ceiling for Terran.
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On August 20 2012 08:18 IPA wrote:
I wish people in this thread (and in the community in general) realize that they are just bad players. As a Terran, you're not playing DRG, viOLet, Stephano or Life; you're playing Random Scrub Diamond Zerg #22354.
I am a 1.1k masters Z; I am awful. I get rolled by better Terrans often -- I think it's probably about a 50/50 matchup for me. I am confident in it but I still lose often to players of my own skill. For everyone below GM, you are making so many countless mistakes (myself included) that balance is an absurd abstract for you to be complaining about. Queen range and fungal aren't beating you -- you're beating yourself because you're fucking awful.
At the highest level, it is perhaps slightly Zerg favored; yet, Terrans continue to compete -- and win -- major events. As a member of the 99.9% scrubhood, I implore you to improve the myriad of things you're bad at. You'll beat the other scrub zergs you're playing, I promise.
<3 gl hf
I wish most people on TL or SC2 players in general would just realise this.
You could argue balance from a passion for the game kinda perspective but 9.9/10 are not. They are just complaining cause they've lost game as a particular race themselves.
Very well written sir. I completely agree.
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On August 20 2012 02:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:57 Swift118 wrote:
Why is everyone jumping on the MVP bandwagon? He's beating Zergs that are a level below himself. pretty sure he could use any number of strats/unit comps to beat those guys... Well, because the other day people were whining, because some midclass, jetlaged Korean Code A and Code S Terrans were losing to the European Elite playing at home in some very close games, that could have gone either way. And now the stupid quit-pro-quo "I just saw tournament X" mentality of TL is flipping the other way around.
What?
Those same midclass Code-A/Code-S Terrans would stomp the living shit out of the European "Elite" (who aren't anywhere close to Elite) Z players under a more balanced patch. The fact that they are losing is a testament to the idiotic nature of the game; the Terran has to just either be unrealistically superior than his opponent (MVP isn't just a level ahead of Nerchio, he is at least two levels ahead of him) or has to pray the Zerg does something tremendously dumb (see Reality vs Symbol games; despite Symbol making massive blunders, he still could have easily won both games despite all of his dumb plays).
On August 20 2012 08:18 IPA wrote:
I wish people in this thread (and in the community in general) realize that they are just bad players. As a Terran, you're not playing DRG, viOLet, Stephano or Life; you're playing Random Scrub Diamond Zerg #22354.
I am a 1.1k masters Z; I am awful. I get rolled by better Terrans often -- I think it's probably about a 50/50 matchup for me. I am confident in it but I still lose often to players of my own skill. For everyone below GM, you are making so many countless mistakes (myself included) that balance is an absurd abstract for you to be complaining about. Queen range and fungal aren't beating you -- you're beating yourself because you're fucking awful.
At the highest level, it is perhaps slightly Zerg favored; yet, Terrans continue to compete -- and win -- major events. As a member of the 99.9% scrubhood, I implore you to improve the myriad of things you're bad at. You'll beat the other scrub zergs you're playing, I promise.
<3 gl hf
This argument is totally stupid. First of all, Terran is significantly harder than Z by alot. Like, alot. Most of the Z builds are set in stone, and require almost no risk at all. It's pure memorization of what to do, what to build, etc. You're the one who has the map control, the vision on the map, and all the cards in your hands. The Terran either has to have absolutely phenomenal Helion/Banshee control, or has to ridiculously cut corners to keep even on economy; otherwise he just has to straight all-in.
It's a hell of alot easier to play Z than it is to play Terran right now. Zerg players get so much more free shit than Terrans do. They can't be bunkered on alot of maps in tournament play, they have a virtually free natural due to the extremely long rush distances now, the nerfing of bunker timings and the barracks timings, they also get a free third now no matter what due to the presence of the new Queen range. Sure, you can beat it; but it's a hell of alot harder to play from behind economically, against a race that can outproduce you by a country mile.
If you think it's just bitching, then why aren't people making threads about how Terran sucks complete dick against Protoss late game? You do understand that Protoss late game actually matches up much better against Terran than Zerg does right? Late game, at least you can abuse the mobility of Broodlords on larger maps; there is no such thing in TvP. If the Protoss takes a 4th and secures it, you are likely 99.9% dead if the Protoss doesn't severely misplays. Hell, the Protoss taking a 3rd is already a huge advantage towards the Protoss. And yet Avilo, nor various other notable players bitch about TvP at all. Want to know why? Because Protoss doesn't get a free pass to just sit there on their asses with complete control of the map with all the vision in the world. They don't get to take a free third, nor do they get to probe as hard as they want. Terran actually has options to actually punish a Protoss player if he plays too greedy. That is not the case in TvZ; a Z WILL take that third no matter what, and it's only a matter of time.
The Protoss player has to WORK to secure his third, and his natural. If he plays too greedy, he dies to all sorts of shennanigans or is severely hurt by it (such as proxy Mara builds, or various double reactor builds off 1 rax CCs, etc.) A Z basically has no fear of getting hit by any of that, because between Creep, OLs, and Lings at watch towers, you can spot any kind of all-in/timing well ahead of time, and produce units by the dozen off of 3 hatch easily and deflect any pressure. The upgraded Queen Range just put the nail in the coffin.
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On August 20 2012 08:18 IPA wrote:
I wish people in this thread (and in the community in general) realize that they are just bad players. As a Terran, you're not playing DRG, viOLet, Stephano or Life; you're playing Random Scrub Diamond Zerg #22354.
I am a 1.1k masters Z; I am awful. I get rolled by better Terrans often -- I think it's probably about a 50/50 matchup for me. I am confident in it but I still lose often to players of my own skill. For everyone below GM, you are making so many countless mistakes (myself included) that balance is an absurd abstract for you to be complaining about. Queen range and fungal aren't beating you -- you're beating yourself because you're fucking awful.
At the highest level, it is perhaps slightly Zerg favored; yet, Terrans continue to compete -- and win -- major events. As a member of the 99.9% scrubhood, I implore you to improve the myriad of things you're bad at. You'll beat the other scrub zergs you're playing, I promise.
<3 gl hf
I respectfully disagree.
Talking about balance on lower levels of play is not absurd, but this whole idea of "it doesn't matter if the balance sucks for everyone except the top 10 people in the world" seems pretty absurd to me.
Optimally, the game would be perfectly balanced on all levels of play. All three races should take as much time and effort to learn, master, and advance to the next level with. Realistically, the game will never get to that point, but that is still what we should strive for. Having a game that is badly balanced for 99.9 % of all players ("the scrubhood") is bad game design, a bad marketing strategy for blizzard, and in the long run also bad for the highest level of play and e-sports in general. If people at low or mid-levels lose interest in striving to become better players because the balance at their level doesn't work, it will mean fewer potential progamers and a smaller scene overall.
Obviously that doesn't mean we should sacrifice pro-level game balance for, say, Silver League balance, but, again, there's no reason we shouldn't aim to have both.
Of course you aren't wrong when you say that if you just try to improve you will get better. Obviously you will, but if the amount of time and effort required to improve with one race is significantly higher than for the other races, more lower-level players of that race are going to lose interest and stop trying to reach higher.
No disrespect intended, but this whole "just reach arbitrary level x and then you can start talking about balance"-reasoning seems pretty useless since almost noone will ever reach the level you speak of, and because said level is, indeed, arbitrary. What constitutes awful play depends entirely on what you compare with. You could set the bar at Gold, Diamond or Masters (and quite a few people who use the same reasoning as you do just that) or even above the current pro level, and the argument would still be the same. Every player can always improve. Even pros make mistakes and have imperfections in their play. Maybe pro level players shouldn't discuss balance either, but instead
just get back to practice and stop missing those injects and clumping up those marines?
So, again, no disrespect intended, but I don't think posting what is essentially a well-written and polite rephrasing of "stop QQ l2p" adds anything to this discussion. Sure, obviously not all losses on the ladder can be chalked down to balance imperfections, but there's still no reason why we shouldn't try to iron out as many of them as we can.
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I dont get one thing about some terran whine is when zerg for example is up they suck both at top level and noob level. when terran is up they own at top level and they say suck at noob level. Just crazy to me maybe your race have higher skill cap or maybe they are not up you just change you shit up like zerg have been for 100 years.
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On August 20 2012 08:33 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:01 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 01:57 Swift118 wrote:
Why is everyone jumping on the MVP bandwagon? He's beating Zergs that are a level below himself. pretty sure he could use any number of strats/unit comps to beat those guys... Well, because the other day people were whining, because some midclass, jetlaged Korean Code A and Code S Terrans were losing to the European Elite playing at home in some very close games, that could have gone either way. And now the stupid quit-pro-quo "I just saw tournament X" mentality of TL is flipping the other way around. What? Those same midclass Code-A/Code-S Terrans would stomp the living shit out of the European "Elite" (who aren't anywhere close to Elite) Z players under a more balanced patch. The fact that they are losing is a testament to the idiotic nature of the game; the Terran has to just either be unrealistically superior than his opponent (MVP isn't just a level ahead of Nerchio, he is at least two levels ahead of him) or has to pray the Zerg does something tremendously dumb (see Reality vs Symbol games; despite Symbol making massive blunders, he still could have easily won both games despite all of his dumb plays). Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:18 IPA wrote:
I wish people in this thread (and in the community in general) realize that they are just bad players. As a Terran, you're not playing DRG, viOLet, Stephano or Life; you're playing Random Scrub Diamond Zerg #22354.
I am a 1.1k masters Z; I am awful. I get rolled by better Terrans often -- I think it's probably about a 50/50 matchup for me. I am confident in it but I still lose often to players of my own skill. For everyone below GM, you are making so many countless mistakes (myself included) that balance is an absurd abstract for you to be complaining about. Queen range and fungal aren't beating you -- you're beating yourself because you're fucking awful.
At the highest level, it is perhaps slightly Zerg favored; yet, Terrans continue to compete -- and win -- major events. As a member of the 99.9% scrubhood, I implore you to improve the myriad of things you're bad at. You'll beat the other scrub zergs you're playing, I promise.
<3 gl hf This argument is totally stupid. First of all, Terran is significantly harder than Z by alot. Like, alot. Most of the Z builds are set in stone, and require almost no risk at all. It's pure memorization of what to do, what to build, etc. You're the one who has the map control, the vision on the map, and all the cards in your hands. The Terran either has to have absolutely phenomenal Helion/Banshee control, or has to ridiculously cut corners to keep even on economy; otherwise he just has to straight all-in. It's a hell of alot easier to play Z than it is to play Terran right now. Zerg players get so much more free shit than Terrans do. They can't be bunkered on alot of maps in tournament play, they have a virtually free natural due to the extremely long rush distances now, the nerfing of bunker tmings and the barracks timings, they also get a free third now no matter what due to the presence of the new Queen range. Sure, you can beat it; but it's a hell of alot harder to play from behind economically, against a race that can outproduce you by a country mile. If you think it's just bitching, then why aren't people making threads about how Terran sucks complete dick against Protoss late game? You do understand that Protoss late game actually matches up much better against Terran than Zerg does right? Late game, at least you can abuse the mobility of Broodlords on larger maps; there is no such thing in TvP. If the Protoss takes a 4th and secures it, you are likely 99.9% dead if the Protoss doesn't severely misplays. Hell, the Protoss taking a 3rd is already a huge advantage towards the Protoss. And yet Avilo, nor various other notable players bitch about TvP at all. Want to know why? Because Protoss doesn't get a free pass to just sit there on their asses with complete control of the map with all the vision in the world. They don't get to take a free third, nor do they get to probe as hard as they want. Terran actually has options to actually punish a Protoss player if he plays too greedy. That is not the case in TvZ; a Z WILL take that third no matter what, and it's only a matter of time. The Protoss player has to WORK to secure his third, and his natural. If he plays too greedy, he dies to all sorts of shennanigans or is severely hurt by it (such as proxy Mara builds, or various double reactor builds off 1 rax CCs, etc.) A Z basically has no fear of getting hit by any of that, because between Creep, OLs, and Lings at watch towers, you can spot any kind of all-in/timing well ahead of time, and produce units by the dozen off of 3 hatch easily and deflect any pressure. The upgraded Queen Range just put the nail in the coffin.
Why do you have to show up in every single balance thread and cry like no tomorrow? Do you even have time to play the game between all the complaining you do on the forums?
-It doesn't make any sense to talk about one race being easier, at all.
-Really? Map size? Are you still beating that dead horse? Did you really prefer the game when it potentially ended in the first 5 alot of the time?
-What does it matter that the game revolves around three bases and then becomes a game of trying to prevent the fourth? It basically just means that we will have longer and greater games. Also if you can't handle that the races play out differently and don't have exactly the same advantage at a given time in the game then this game is probably not for you.
You are so biased it just blows my mind reading your posts. Another thing I can't understand is how you have managed to stay unbanned for all this time...
The guy you quoted had a really nice and motivating post and you just had to smash through it with all your balance complaints. Even if you must complain, please make the effort to sound abit nice and preferably more objective as well. That would be really nice for those of us trying to read it
RaZorwire basically just showed you how you can disagree very respectfully and hence his post comes across much better and is much more pleasant to read
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On August 20 2012 08:18 IPA wrote:
I wish people in this thread (and in the community in general) realize that they are just bad players. As a Terran, you're not playing DRG, viOLet, Stephano or Life; you're playing Random Scrub Diamond Zerg #22354.
I am a 1.1k masters Z; I am awful. I get rolled by better Terrans often -- I think it's probably about a 50/50 matchup for me. I am confident in it but I still lose often to players of my own skill. For everyone below GM, you are making so many countless mistakes (myself included) that balance is an absurd abstract for you to be complaining about. Queen range and fungal aren't beating you -- you're beating yourself because you're fucking awful.
At the highest level, it is perhaps slightly Zerg favored; yet, Terrans continue to compete -- and win -- major events. As a member of the 99.9% scrubhood, I implore you to improve the myriad of things you're bad at. You'll beat the other scrub zergs you're playing, I promise.
<3 gl hf
I wish more people would accept this statement. It would make them so much better.
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I am not masters.
but I don't agree with this buff either.
Sure, you can get Ravens to the field faster, but that's really nothing.
Raven deserves as HSM buff, like a speed buff or aoe buff.
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Not crazy because i can understand human intellect but on paper its kind of crazy
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On August 20 2012 08:59 XERtirips wrote:
I am not masters.
but I don't agree with this buff either.
Sure, you can get Ravens to the field faster, but that's really nothing.
Raven deserves as HSM buff, like a speed buff or aoe buff.
hey more movablility on the raven is good.
what they ALSO should do is increase the cast range of seeker missle to 8 range
and auto turret and PDD to 6
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Honestly, it's not just ravens. All the air casters in WOL are stupid units, for different reasons. Raven,Mothership,overseer, all screwy units. I miss Arbiter, Science vessel, Queen, they are just so much better.
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I don't have a huge argument to put in but look at recent results- with the slow but steady style adaptation we have seen from terran players, the matchup is becoming increasingly balanced in terms of win rates, both on the ladder and in the pro scene. I don't think there is much room for complaint anymore.
In my opinion, the main problem to address is the maps. We've seen Terran's go toe to toe many times in long games on those very big GSL maps (think metropolis, atlantis spaceship), and we've seen Zerg unable to transition into the late game properly on the smaller maps (ohana, antigua, cloud kingdom). The only thing that seems to work for Zerg on these maps is the extremely greedy play into a very fast hive and a 'tier 3 all-in' where there is not much room for transition. It's been working, but the style is being figured out and slowly dying off. In my opinion, the problem lies in those big-ish maps, like daybreak. It's not big enough for Terran to take bases quickly and go toe-to-toe with the Zerg macro wise, but it's too big to be agressive. Blizzard needs to switch their map making philosophy and gear it towards balance instead making Zerg maps and Terran maps. That's what the GSL does, and Terrans are doing just fine.
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On August 20 2012 08:57 Cereb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:33 superstartran wrote:On August 20 2012 02:01 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 01:57 Swift118 wrote:
Why is everyone jumping on the MVP bandwagon? He's beating Zergs that are a level below himself. pretty sure he could use any number of strats/unit comps to beat those guys... Well, because the other day people were whining, because some midclass, jetlaged Korean Code A and Code S Terrans were losing to the European Elite playing at home in some very close games, that could have gone either way. And now the stupid quit-pro-quo "I just saw tournament X" mentality of TL is flipping the other way around. What? Those same midclass Code-A/Code-S Terrans would stomp the living shit out of the European "Elite" (who aren't anywhere close to Elite) Z players under a more balanced patch. The fact that they are losing is a testament to the idiotic nature of the game; the Terran has to just either be unrealistically superior than his opponent (MVP isn't just a level ahead of Nerchio, he is at least two levels ahead of him) or has to pray the Zerg does something tremendously dumb (see Reality vs Symbol games; despite Symbol making massive blunders, he still could have easily won both games despite all of his dumb plays). On August 20 2012 08:18 IPA wrote:
I wish people in this thread (and in the community in general) realize that they are just bad players. As a Terran, you're not playing DRG, viOLet, Stephano or Life; you're playing Random Scrub Diamond Zerg #22354.
I am a 1.1k masters Z; I am awful. I get rolled by better Terrans often -- I think it's probably about a 50/50 matchup for me. I am confident in it but I still lose often to players of my own skill. For everyone below GM, you are making so many countless mistakes (myself included) that balance is an absurd abstract for you to be complaining about. Queen range and fungal aren't beating you -- you're beating yourself because you're fucking awful.
At the highest level, it is perhaps slightly Zerg favored; yet, Terrans continue to compete -- and win -- major events. As a member of the 99.9% scrubhood, I implore you to improve the myriad of things you're bad at. You'll beat the other scrub zergs you're playing, I promise.
<3 gl hf This argument is totally stupid. First of all, Terran is significantly harder than Z by alot. Like, alot. Most of the Z builds are set in stone, and require almost no risk at all. It's pure memorization of what to do, what to build, etc. You're the one who has the map control, the vision on the map, and all the cards in your hands. The Terran either has to have absolutely phenomenal Helion/Banshee control, or has to ridiculously cut corners to keep even on economy; otherwise he just has to straight all-in. It's a hell of alot easier to play Z than it is to play Terran right now. Zerg players get so much more free shit than Terrans do. They can't be bunkered on alot of maps in tournament play, they have a virtually free natural due to the extremely long rush distances now, the nerfing of bunker tmings and the barracks timings, they also get a free third now no matter what due to the presence of the new Queen range. Sure, you can beat it; but it's a hell of alot harder to play from behind economically, against a race that can outproduce you by a country mile. If you think it's just bitching, then why aren't people making threads about how Terran sucks complete dick against Protoss late game? You do understand that Protoss late game actually matches up much better against Terran than Zerg does right? Late game, at least you can abuse the mobility of Broodlords on larger maps; there is no such thing in TvP. If the Protoss takes a 4th and secures it, you are likely 99.9% dead if the Protoss doesn't severely misplays. Hell, the Protoss taking a 3rd is already a huge advantage towards the Protoss. And yet Avilo, nor various other notable players bitch about TvP at all. Want to know why? Because Protoss doesn't get a free pass to just sit there on their asses with complete control of the map with all the vision in the world. They don't get to take a free third, nor do they get to probe as hard as they want. Terran actually has options to actually punish a Protoss player if he plays too greedy. That is not the case in TvZ; a Z WILL take that third no matter what, and it's only a matter of time. The Protoss player has to WORK to secure his third, and his natural. If he plays too greedy, he dies to all sorts of shennanigans or is severely hurt by it (such as proxy Mara builds, or various double reactor builds off 1 rax CCs, etc.) A Z basically has no fear of getting hit by any of that, because between Creep, OLs, and Lings at watch towers, you can spot any kind of all-in/timing well ahead of time, and produce units by the dozen off of 3 hatch easily and deflect any pressure. The upgraded Queen Range just put the nail in the coffin. Why do you have to show up in every single balance thread and cry like no tomorrow? Do you even have time to play the game between all the complaining you do on the forums? -It doesn't make any sense to talk about one race being easier, at all. -Really? Map size? Are you still beating that dead horse? Did you really prefer the game when it potentially ended in the first 5 alot of the time? -What does it matter that the game revolves around three bases and then becomes a game of trying to prevent the fourth? It basically just means that we will have longer and greater games. Also if you can't handle that the races play out differently and don't have exactly the same advantage at a given time in the game then this game is probably not for you. You are so biased it just blows my mind reading your posts. Another thing I can't understand is how you have managed to stay unbanned for all this time... The guy you quoted had a really nice and motivating post and you just had to smash through it with all your balance complaints. Even if you must complain, please make the effort to sound abit nice and preferably more objective as well. That would be really nice for those of us trying to read it RaZorwire basically just showed you how you can disagree very respectfully and hence his post comes across much better and is much more pleasant to read
Because you don't get better against a race that gets free economic, map control, and vision advantages over you. That's not how proper RTS gameplay works. And if you have to play that way, you better have a card in your hand that actually is legitimately deadly, such as BW Mech that would literally smash any army on the planet if you were positioned properly. No one bitched or moaned and groaned in BW about Terran other than Idra, because everyone understood that if Terran was allowed to deathball up, they would go over and kill you and there's jack shit you can do about it (unless you properly flank and use casters to their full potential). This is especially true on alot of maps where there are narrow attack paths that really heavily favor Mech play in BW.
SC2, Terran not only is playing from behind from a tech, economy, and map control stand point, they have virtually no options that are better than Z's late game. So between not having any kind of all-ins, no deadly late game army, and virtually no ability to contest the map other than for a short window (Helion/Banshee, which gets shut down badly by 8 Mutas), Terran is left with basically no option but to virtually all-in every game or play very risky in some form or fashion.
Z players that tell Terran players to get better aren't doing themselves any favor, because they simply bitch moaned and groaned until they got all the changes they wanted and now they believe the game is completely fine. Any Z player that tells you to "get better" is pretty much being a jackass, whether he means to or not, because Z players did not magically become better; they got free buffs that gave them alot more options, and alot more tools. Alot of it was direct, but also indirect such as map size, free OL parking spots, etc. etc. If people didn't "bitch" back then, we'd still have 3 rax Speedreapers, terrible maps, etc. etc. and right now we're in a bad spot in the game where almost every TvZ and PvZ is watching both T and P make huge risky gambles that only pay off because Z's are being ultra greedy.
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"This argument is totally stupid. First of all, Terran is significantly harder than Z by alot. Like, alot. Most of the Z builds are set in stone, and require almost no risk at all. It's pure memorization of what to do, what to build, etc. You're the one who has the map control, the vision on the map, and all the cards in your hands. The Terran either has to have absolutely phenomenal Helion/Banshee control, or has to ridiculously cut corners to keep even on economy; otherwise he just has to straight all-in. "
Yo do realize that zerg is a reactive race? We don't control the game, we react to what you do, of course we have tool to have map control, we need that.
"It's a hell of alot easier to play Z than it is to play Terran right now. Zerg players get so much more free shit than Terrans do. They can't be bunkered on alot of maps in tournament play, they have a virtually free natural due to the extremely long rush distances now, the nerfing of bunker timings and the barracks timings, they also get a free third now no matter what due to the presence of the new Queen range. Sure, you can beat it; but it's a hell of alot harder to play from behind economically, against a race that can outproduce you by a country mile. "
I get bunker rush a lot, whatever the map is. Unless the terran is a complete noob, it often hurts me quite a lot.
"If you think it's just bitching, then why aren't people making threads about how Terran sucks complete dick against Protoss late game? You do understand that Protoss late game actually matches up much better against Terran than Zerg does right? Late game, at least you can abuse the mobility of Broodlords on larger maps; there is no such thing in TvP. If the Protoss takes a 4th and secures it, you are likely 99.9% dead if the Protoss doesn't severely misplays. Hell, the Protoss taking a 3rd is already a huge advantage towards the Protoss. And yet Avilo, nor various other notable players bitch about TvP at all. Want to know why? Because Protoss doesn't get a free pass to just sit there on their asses with complete control of the map with all the vision in the world. They don't get to take a free third, nor do they get to probe as hard as they want. Terran actually has options to actually punish a Protoss player if he plays too greedy. That is not the case in TvZ; a Z WILL take that third no matter what, and it's only a matter of time."
Dude, when did you start playing starcraft? Zerg needed at least 1 more base than T/P for more than a decade. It was like that in Sc1 and it's like that in Sc2 because zergs unit arent as cost efficient as your units.
"The Protoss player has to WORK to secure his third, and his natural. If he plays too greedy, he dies to all sorts of shennanigans or is severely hurt by it (such as proxy Mara builds, or various double reactor builds off 1 rax CCs, etc.) A Z basically has no fear of getting hit by any of that, because between Creep, OLs, and Lings at watch towers, you can spot any kind of all-in/timing well ahead of time, and produce units by the dozen off of 3 hatch easily and deflect any pressure. The upgraded Queen Range just put the nail in the coffin."
I honestly don't know what to answer to that. You seem to believe that zergs has an auto-pilot button that does everything by itself.
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