EPT[D] The raven buff does not address TvZ issues - Page 30
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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. | ||
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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Raggamuffinoo
United Kingdom117 Posts
Personally I don't think a buff is even necessary, terran's will be able to recognise when their economy can support 2 or more starports for ravens. Usually after 3 bases and starting their 3/3 upgrades for which ever composition they are utilizing. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On August 20 2012 10:53 Kharnage wrote: Hey, want some food for thought? Mothership is getting a snare in HotS. Picture this. Storm and Snare. Yeeeaaah baby. Fungal on roids. @Iron_ in principle I agree with you. Fungals compelte dominance of phoenix play / VR harass is stupid, however balancing the 'snare' component would be really difficult. If the snare is too slow then effectly there is no difference. Even slowing as much as concussive shell you're still going to lose everything since SC2 is a game of seconds when it comes to large engagements. lol storm and snare, u dont have 15 mothership running around who will be able to snare indefinitely though | ||
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EuLoGy[kTw]
United States82 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On August 20 2012 11:13 Raggamuffinoo wrote: The raven buff is comparable to the warpprism buff. Blizzard -know- the raven is a useful support unit for lategame terran, they are just giving a slight buff to say "use it more!". Personally I don't think a buff is even necessary, terran's will be able to recognise when their economy can support 2 or more starports for ravens. Usually after 3 bases and starting their 3/3 upgrades for which ever composition they are utilizing. Except the Raven isn't useful in its current iteration. 200 gas unit that requires 2-3 upgrades (150/150 each) to be considered useful. Hell, even the energy upgrade for the Raven doesn't let you use any abilities when it pops out of the starport. It just makes it so you only have to wait ~90s instead of ~130s for HSM, and ~45s instead of ~90s for PDDs. No matter how you compare it to other casters, it sucks balls with or without these buffs under test. | ||
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EuLoGy[kTw]
United States82 Posts
On August 20 2012 08:59 XERtirips wrote: I am not masters. but I don't agree with this buff either. Sure, you can get Ravens to the field faster, but that's really nothing. Raven deserves as HSM buff, like a speed buff or aoe buff. Oh so you can just win all games late game vs Zerg? Standard. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
On August 20 2012 09:26 aksfjh wrote: Interesting fact, the 2 maps in TSL4 that are GSL maps have TvZ winrates of roughly 40% a piece. Yeah, but consider that it takes into consideration all games since the patch. For a while after the patch, it was a lot worse that 40%, but, as I said, terrans are figuring out how to play the late game, and things are balancing out slowly. | ||
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ValhallaDude
United States24 Posts
On August 20 2012 11:13 Raggamuffinoo wrote: The raven buff is comparable to the warpprism buff. Blizzard -know- the raven is a useful support unit for lategame terran, they are just giving a slight buff to say "use it more!". Personally I don't think a buff is even necessary, terran's will be able to recognise when their economy can support 2 or more starports for ravens. Usually after 3 bases and starting their 3/3 upgrades for which ever composition they are utilizing. How is a 42% increase in health comparable to a 10% increase in movement speed? The difference is that a warp prism comes out of a robo, something protoss all ready have from making obs and colossi. To make ravens require a starport with a tech lab. So Terran have a building entirely dedicated to making ravens which costs 200/125. This cost is akin to zerg making a single macro hatchery to make a single unit from at a time, never using larva inject on it. You could imagine how it would be if zerg needed to create an entirely new hatchery just to make one unit at a time. Ravens also take 60 seconds to build and an eternity more to have enough energy to do anything useful. All this to just help fight against broodlord infestor only. If terran somehow survive the massive timing window that making ravens opens them up to, then he needs to rely on his opponent being stupid and creating a massive clump with his broodlords and corruptors. Another point is that once you kill the broodlords and corruptors, what will the ravens do about an ultralisk switch? Absolutely nothing, lol. | ||
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Raggamuffinoo
United Kingdom117 Posts
On August 20 2012 11:23 aksfjh wrote: Except the Raven isn't useful in its current iteration. 200 gas unit that requires 2-3 upgrades (150/150 each) to be considered useful. Hell, even the energy upgrade for the Raven doesn't let you use any abilities when it pops out of the starport. It just makes it so you only have to wait ~90s instead of ~130s for HSM, and ~45s instead of ~90s for PDDs. No matter how you compare it to other casters, it sucks balls with or without these buffs under test. I don't deny it's cost and time requirements, what I am saying is: a carefully planned transition to ravens during the mid/lategame is a very viable counter to zerg broodlord corruptor mix. I would assume most terrans admit that they bank alot of gas after 3 bases and starting 3/3. As long as terran has been expanding or adding macro orbitals during the midgame, the transition to raven is very affordable and even helpful to burn off some gas for a supply efficient support unit. How I percieve many of these "but you can't use it right away" arguments is a lack of patience in the lategame, all this talk of "having to kill zerg before..." gets players anxious. Ravens are the opposite. They are the terran players' way of saying "let zerg come to me". | ||
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
On August 20 2012 06:47 a_flayer wrote: Both major and keen have now played games vs jonnyrecco that they lost where they had a massive excess of gas and did not make any ravens. Just saying. You are supposed to spend your resources. All of them. This is a very basic concept in StarCraft. The problem with ravens is the time it takes to get them out, even if you have the gas to do it, you need units to stay alive and keep some sort of presence in the game. You can't instantly turn 2k gas into 10 ravens, you'd need 5 minutes to do that. And what can a zerg do in 5 minutes late game? kill you, and take every expo on the map. | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On August 20 2012 11:35 CatNzHat wrote: The problem with ravens is the time it takes to get them out, even if you have the gas to do it, you need units to stay alive and keep some sort of presence in the game. You can't instantly turn 2k gas into 10 ravens, you'd need 5 minutes to do that. And what can a zerg do in 5 minutes late game? kill you, and take every expo on the map. I heard Ultras take time to get out too, oh and Broodlords take time.. Need a spire+hive then a greater spire.. Then a WHOLE other unit and then after that you need to convert that unit into a broodlord. If times the issue, make fucking time for it. This may be my last post here, I'll start getting angry at all of the stupid comments. The only true arguments in TvZ one could make are directly related to fungal and the Zerg remax Broodlord to Ultralisk, but even that has been proven to be counterable by Terran so I don't see it as much of a problem. This "ravens take so long to build" bullshit needs to get thrown right out the door. | ||
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Raggamuffinoo
United Kingdom117 Posts
On August 20 2012 11:33 ValhallaDude wrote: How is a 42% increase in health comparable to a 10% increase in movement speed? The difference is that a warp prism comes out of a robo, something protoss all ready have from making obs and colossi. To make ravens require a starport with a tech lab. So Terran have a building entirely dedicated to making ravens which costs 200/125. This cost is akin to zerg making a single macro hatchery to make a single unit from at a time, never using larva inject on it. You could imagine how it would be if zerg needed to create an entirely new hatchery just to make one unit at a time. Ravens also take 60 seconds to build and an eternity more to have enough energy to do anything useful. All this to just help fight against broodlord infestor only. If terran somehow survive the massive timing window that making ravens opens them up to, then he needs to rely on his opponent being stupid and creating a massive clump with his broodlords and corruptors. Another point is that once you kill the broodlords and corruptors, what will the ravens do about an ultralisk switch? Absolutely nothing, lol. It is comparable in regard to it being a subtle message from Blizzard saying "try to use this more often". I do not agree with your argument about having to dedicate starports to ravens, with an aggressively expanding terran midgame, you should have ample resources to afford 2 or more starports. Also, terran have the options to buy time. Drops are quite efficient for cost, tanks, bunkers and planetary fortresses with repair also make it a nightmare for zerg to want to commit across the map. theorycraft In regards to zerg splitting, PDD + upgraded vikings give terran the advantage in the air. So long as you are able to avoid gamechanging fungals, you can trade vikings for corruptors all day. If zerg switches to ultras, you already have the infrastructure to deal with it and zerg gives up air superiority so you can go BC or banshee for a clean win. /theorycraft | ||
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
Terran's only aoe spell is HSM which is a projectile costs a lot and takes time blah blah etc. Protoss has storm which is instant and DOT zerg's spell is also instant DOT and root. replacing hsm with irradiate would make it more in line with the other races/useful overall/easier to balance and also more interesting to watch in general (mass hsm is like KABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMM, well, game over). | ||
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BgSBendeR
Canada170 Posts
If you spent all that time practising instead of whining on the internet. You might actually become slightly better. Mvp makes good use of the raven and doesn't complain about TvZ Balance so your entire post is irrelevant. | ||
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ValhallaDude
United States24 Posts
On August 20 2012 11:46 Raggamuffinoo wrote: It is comparable in regard to it being a subtle message from Blizzard saying "try to use this more often". I do not agree with your argument about having to dedicate starports to ravens, with an aggressively expanding terran midgame, you should have ample resources to afford 2 or more starports. Also, terran have the options to buy time. Drops are quite efficient for cost, tanks, bunkers and planetary fortresses with repair also make it a nightmare for zerg to want to commit across the map. theorycraft In regards to zerg splitting, PDD + upgraded vikings give terran the advantage in the air. So long as you are able to avoid gamechanging fungals, you can trade vikings for corruptors all day. If zerg switches to ultras, you already have the infrastructure to deal with it and zerg gives up air superiority so you can go BC or banshee for a clean win. /theorycraft 42% increase in health isn't subtle. Do you even know what that word means? I'm giving solid numbers and actual events. I.e building ravens opens you up for a massive timing window. Ravens take 60 seconds to build from infrastructure that costs more than a hatchery. While you are here spewing your stupidity and claiming everything that disagrees with you is theory crafting. Are you dense? | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On August 20 2012 12:12 BgSBendeR wrote: @Avilo, TvZ is fine. If you spent all that time practising instead of whining on the internet. You might actually become slightly better. Mvp makes good use of the raven and doesn't complain about TvZ Balance so your entire post is irrelevant. Koreans are actually horribly bad balance whiners. They just still practice and figure out ways to win anyway. Western players seem content to wait on Blizzard to fix things while throwing their hands up in the air and claiming OP. | ||
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Femari
United States2900 Posts
On August 20 2012 12:12 BgSBendeR wrote: @Avilo, TvZ is fine. If you spent all that time practising instead of whining on the internet. You might actually become slightly better. Mvp makes good use of the raven and doesn't complain about TvZ Balance so your entire post is irrelevant. Lack of whining from the best SC2 player to date, when he never really says anything in the first place, doesn't say much. TvZ isn't broken. Terran is just UP. We have no late game, and therein lies the problem. This buff does not help the late game. Ravens are still not worth what they cost. If Zerg is going to be uncontested, make sure Terran has a viable late game. That solves the TvP issue as well. | ||
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bellsNkeys
United States52 Posts
On August 20 2012 12:20 Femari wrote: Lack of whining from the best SC2 player to date, when he never really says anything in the first place, doesn't say much. TvZ isn't broken. Terran is just UP. We have no late game, and therein lies the problem. This buff does not help the late game. Ravens are still not worth what they cost. If Zerg is going to be uncontested, make sure Terran has a viable late game. That solves the TvP issue as well. I don't think it's because Terran doesn't have a late game at all, it's because Zerg gets their ultimate t3 army so much easier and earlier than we do. Typical timing for infestor/corruptor/BL timing now is what 17:00ish minutes? Assuming high level play of course. Now imagine if Terran could realistically have a mass bc/raven/viking composition at the 17:00 minute mark. It would even out the playing field in the late game. So maybe the problem is Zerg just needs to somehow get their late game composition in the actual late game like Terran does. | ||
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BgSBendeR
Canada170 Posts
On August 20 2012 12:20 Femari wrote: Lack of whining from the best SC2 player to date, when he never really says anything in the first place, doesn't say much. TvZ isn't broken. Terran is just UP. We have no late game, and therein lies the problem. This buff does not help the late game. Ravens are still not worth what they cost. If Zerg is going to be uncontested, make sure Terran has a viable late game. That solves the TvP issue as well. Terran has no late game? What in the actual fuck. Terran actually has the best late game army of the 3 races. Mvp beats zerg late game. so yes You guys are whining for no reason. Start actually practising and maybe you won't be as bad. | ||
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cristo1122
Australia505 Posts
2) probly could be controlled by terran map presense and contesting the space this would also force the zerg to make units as they will not be able to make a substantial creep spread unless they remove the units that you have out on the map from the immediate vicinity. This makes map presence and control more important with the zerg spreading the creep while the terran seeks to deny it. 3) The composition you describe is dependant on 2 factors creep spread (an infestor cant out run a HSM) and gas income. (Additionally this composition is good when kept togethor and some drops could be part of late game tactics.) Both of these two factors will be decided in the mid game as the zeerg needs to able to take enough expansions to afford such a gas heavy composition and spread creep in order to maximise its effectivness. The main issue as i see it is that terrans do not have a plan for the late game other then whats the zerg doing and how do i deal with it. Rather than saying what can i do to reduce its effecice or conversly have enough economy to win a battle of attrition. Finally i dont accept the idea that because of clumping of units + fungal growth = overpowered especially when its not that hard to declump your units as well as using more than one control group for vikings (radical concept). | ||
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