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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 20 2012 07:12 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:56 Stropheum wrote:On August 20 2012 06:34 DebtSC2 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz. Hm. You must not be watching good zergs, as it is quite easy with range 5 queens to deny all hellion runbys if the zerg is not absolutely awful. Perhaps you only watch your own games? I think the queen changes have very little to do with stopping hellion run by's. It's more of the fact that at the time run by's would occur, there are 4 queens that you can position along with 2 evolution chambers to completely block out hellion harass I still think it has to do with the fact that there is little tradeoff with going for a mass queen defensive opening. So much larvae can be dedicated for upfront drone production or recovery drone production while still remaining safe at every stage of the game. It's not like getting extra queens reduce the early or mid game scouting of Zerg, the economy of Zerg, or the tech options of Zerg. It's a no brainer to do. Even before the buff, you could have gone 4 queen and blocked off the entrance. With good play, you would perfectly counter any hellion opening, but you would have to invest in a few lings or roaches as well. That made it very risky to do blind, and with slower overlords, it required a bit of gambling.
Very good post, the main thing is that zergs these days do not need to gamble anymore, they can defend pretty much everything, while if Terran wants to get greedy, we are extremely susceptible to early attacks or baneling busts
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On August 20 2012 17:00 iaguz wrote:
We had irradiate. It was renamed Snipe (spell: Choose target zerg unit. End it's life) with the exception that it wasn't aoe and instead of having a set duration the actual duration was 'as fast as you could shift click'. We all know what happened to that.
And Kawaii is totally wrong, Ghosts have hte single most damaging ability in the game: Launch Nuclear Missile! Jeez do you even play Terran at a high level?
Can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not with the part of Nukes~
Look basically,
Tanks, were nerfed~
Ghost Snipe, nerfed~
Everything is nerfed!!~
/end rant
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On August 20 2012 17:00 iaguz wrote:
We had irradiate. It was renamed Snipe (spell: Choose target zerg unit. End it's life) with the exception that it wasn't aoe and instead of having a set duration the actual duration was 'as fast as you could shift click'. We all know what happened to that.
And Kawaii is totally wrong, Ghosts have hte single most damaging ability in the game: Launch Nuclear Missile! Jeez do you even play Terran at a high level?
Well, im pretty sure snipe was nerfed because it dealt with both ultra and broods at the same time. Yet fungal continues to be good against both air and ground... Double standards from blizzard is mindblowing.
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I find that HSM is flawed mainly because you often will blow up your own guys due to its range. Acceleration has something to do with also, when I cast HSM I usually - shift run backwards away from the aoe but ravens still move forward after they cast it before they turn around and turning around (acceleration) is slow and clunky. Also the units you cast it on move towards you. This means any subsequent ravens that move in to cast HSM become more and more likely to get caught in the blast radius.
I would happily sacrifice some of the damage or aoe for an increase in range.
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Avilo is right, but in my opinion it is a good change, because if the raven gets a little bit faster you can micro it easier and that's good for the late-late-game in TvZ, but the patch won't do anything more than that.
Greetz
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On August 20 2012 14:17 Aterons_toss wrote:
As someone who doesn't know shit about tvz from a player perspective, could i ask, what is wrong with tvz atm if you play it the same way mvp does ? Is there a "fix" needed ? isn't the speed buff enough to simply allow that MVP style to work perfectly ( since ravens will be faster than infestors... right ?, i don't remember what the speed increase was ;p ).
not all map allow to turtle like mvp did on metropolis.
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On August 20 2012 08:10 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:19 Ramiz1989 wrote:On August 20 2012 04:56 NiteshadeSC2 wrote:On August 20 2012 04:05 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Talking about map hack, what about sensor towers? Oh right, those things are really really expensive... Apples to apples, oranges to oranges please. Creep costs neither minerals nor gas. Creep self-replicates in any direction the player wishes. Creep requires detection to eliminate. Creep provides a speed buff to most units (some exceptions). Terran and Protoss cannot build next to a creep tumor. Creep (or rather the tumors) allow for the vision of the exact unit type over it (save for cloaked). Creep does not appear on the minimap without first scouting it with a unit. VS: The sensor tower does not do any of the above. They are not the same, not even close. Best, Niteshade Exactly what I was talking about in the comment just before yours. You just ignored everything what Sensor Tower can do, while listing everything what Creep is doing and said how they are different. The perfect example of what was I talking about. It appears that Niteshade seemed to out-logic you. Please study basic logic before trying to refute someone's argument..
Oh damn, hahahaha he out-logic me. He even apologized in the next post and said how he misunderstood my post. But I didn't even think you would understand it, so I won't even waste my time to explain it.
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On August 20 2012 17:08 DougJDempsey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:00 iaguz wrote:
We had irradiate. It was renamed Snipe (spell: Choose target zerg unit. End it's life) with the exception that it wasn't aoe and instead of having a set duration the actual duration was 'as fast as you could shift click'. We all know what happened to that.
And Kawaii is totally wrong, Ghosts have hte single most damaging ability in the game: Launch Nuclear Missile! Jeez do you even play Terran at a high level? Well, im pretty sure snipe was nerfed because it dealt with both ultra and broods at the same time. Yet fungal continues to be good against both air and ground... Double standards from blizzard is mindblowing.
Yes, because these abilities are the same right?
You can minimize the fungal damage and effect by spreading units, you can't minimize snipe effect, you just killed everything what was in your sight with them. The way you think is really mindblowing...
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On August 20 2012 17:01 PiPoGevy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:12 aksfjh wrote:On August 20 2012 06:56 Stropheum wrote:On August 20 2012 06:34 DebtSC2 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:32 InSpiReZerG wrote:
^lmfao. Every, EVERY hellion runby ive ever seen has gotten more than enough drone kills to pay for itself. next point plz. Hm. You must not be watching good zergs, as it is quite easy with range 5 queens to deny all hellion runbys if the zerg is not absolutely awful. Perhaps you only watch your own games? I think the queen changes have very little to do with stopping hellion run by's. It's more of the fact that at the time run by's would occur, there are 4 queens that you can position along with 2 evolution chambers to completely block out hellion harass I still think it has to do with the fact that there is little tradeoff with going for a mass queen defensive opening. So much larvae can be dedicated for upfront drone production or recovery drone production while still remaining safe at every stage of the game. It's not like getting extra queens reduce the early or mid game scouting of Zerg, the economy of Zerg, or the tech options of Zerg. It's a no brainer to do. Even before the buff, you could have gone 4 queen and blocked off the entrance. With good play, you would perfectly counter any hellion opening, but you would have to invest in a few lings or roaches as well. That made it very risky to do blind, and with slower overlords, it required a bit of gambling. Very good post, the main thing is that zergs these days do not need to gamble anymore, they can defend pretty much everything, while if Terran wants to get greedy, we are extremely susceptible to early attacks or baneling busts
Are you telling me that having to guess which all in the Terran was doing from a range of about 25 different ones was good balanced gameplay?
I can't tell you how many times I'd been in a situation wondering if it was going to be Hellion or Banshee and I sacked an Overlord just to nothing to end up finding out the guys doing something completely different which I auto lose to
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Judging from MVP's performance vs Vortix in the Semi-Finals and Nerchio in the Finals, it's not a game balance problem but a player skill problem that Terreans are facing. As MVP demonstrated, even tho' Queens are capable of defending the main base and the natural base from Hellion and Banshee harrassment, the 7:00 minute third base is vulnerable to a direct attack from Hellions and Banshees and the Zerg have to either A) move out with 2+ Queens and Zergling to defend it or B) sacrifice it in order to counter the opponent's main base or army with Mutalisks. In case of A) Terrans can now harass Zerg's natural with Hellions when the Queens come out to defend the 3rd vs the Banshees, and in the case of B) Terrans can expand behind the attack and end one base up on Zerg.
Even MVPs openings took advantage of Vortix and Nerchio's early predictable and passive styles, with Command Center first and Barracks Expand into a 3rd Command Center openings gaining the economic advantage vs Vortix repeatedly in their match up. In both end games vs Vortix and Nerchio, MVP demolished the Zerg end game compositions with Ravens and Hunter Seeker Missiles with relative ease, so it appears Terrand don't have a significant end game disadvantage vs Broodlord, Corrupter, Infestor at all and I'm doubtful Ravens need a speed increase considering the immobility of Broodlords to begin with.
The match up seems fine, MVP managed to dismantle both Vortix and Nerchio in rapid secession, and I think it's Zerg, not Terran, who need to reconsider their strategies, tactics and build orders in the match up because the 15 Hatchery, 16 Spawning Pool, 4 Queens and 2+ Gas at 40 supply has absolutely no dynamicism vs Terrans and you can freely harass the opponents 3rd while taking your own 3rd and have a chance either kill the opponents 3rd or draw out the Queens and suicide into Zerg mineral lines ... all of this while taking your 3rd unppposed ...
And altho' MVP beat Vortix and Nerchio decisively, I'm not even certain he played optimally to do it, because the Terrans are investing 200/200 into Banshee Cloack that I think is for all intents and purposes unnecessary, because tactically your only using Banshees to either kill the 3rd or draw out the Queens and Zerg have no problem dealing with Cloak when they have easy access to Spore Crawlers and a Lair -> Overseer(s) so it's 200/200 resources that could be better spent elsewhere (a faster 2nd Factory, a faster Stim Pack, or an unorthodox 2nd Starport perhaps)
I'm not convinced the Creep Spread is the issue, the ability to spread Creep pre-patch was the same as it is now post-patch and the only difference is that small numbers of Hellion's can't deny Creep Spreed as easily vs 2+ Queens. Strategically, I think this is fine, because now Terrans have to choose between committing to Hellions at 6+ or expend Scans in order to eliminate the Creep Tumors the Queens leave behind. This doesn't mean that Creep Spread is OP, it means that Terrans can't /faceroll their keyboards and deny creep without having to make trade offs between their map position and their economy.
If it's a question of "balancing" Zerg Queens, I think the main problem Zerg Queens pose is that they don't have any Armor Type. In the interests of giving Terran more opening chances vs Zerg, I think it'd be interesting to change the Queen's Armor Type to Armored and allow Marauders to attack them for 10 (+10) damage, then Terrans have a reason to include Marauders into their Hellion mixtures and directly push the front or for Zerg to have a reason to actually build other units than Queens (or more than 4xQueens?)
In short, watch MLG Germany's MVP semi-final and finals match up vs Vortix and Nerchio and take notes, because MVP destroyed both of them handedly and if I were a Zerg player I'd be seriously reconsidering my Spawning Pool and Vespene Gas timings in order to either pose the threat of Speedlings, Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes or 2 Base Speedling, Baneling, Roach all ins or 2 Base + Macro Hatch and Roach Expand builds instead of turtling on 2 bases, hanging 3rd bases and betting the house on a Mutalisk counter attack or 11 minute Hives into Greater Spires that depend on having a 4th when you can't even guarantee your 3rd ...
All I have to say is earlier Gas and Roach Warrens are looking a hell of a lot better than they did before, and TERRANS OP :p
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On August 20 2012 14:17 Aterons_toss wrote:
As someone who doesn't know shit about tvz from a player perspective, could i ask, what is wrong with tvz atm if you play it the same way mvp does ? Is there a "fix" needed ? isn't the speed buff enough to simply allow that MVP style to work perfectly ( since ravens will be faster than infestors... right ?, i don't remember what the speed increase was ;p ).
Why do people do things like this? Why do people point to MVP and TaeJa and just say 'play like they do, TvZ is fine.'
Have you maybe, just maybe considered that MVP and TaeJa are beating zergs regularly becasue THEY ARE JUST BETTER PLAYERS THAN THEIR OPPONENTS. God, how can you expect Master's players to play like MVP and TaeJa? It isn't the style that makes them strong, it is their exceptional macro, unit control and map awareness that allows them to beat anyone. This exact same thing happened in the first GSL with FruitDealer, but nobody told zerg players to 'Just play like FruitDealer' becasue not everyone is freaking fruitdealer. Jesus this is such a stupid argument.
Now that I've vented my annoyance at some idiocy, I want to clarify something that I said earlier:
'The problem with TvZ atm, at least in my opinion, is that the Queen buff has made all aggression from Terran borderline negligible. Hellions are far weaker at containing and harassing, early bio timings are so much weaker, and banshee openings are so much weaker. Because of this, terrans can't force the zerg to stop making drones - so when terran opens aggresively, and the zerg can just make 80 drones without batting an eyelid anyway, the terran falls wayyyy behind.
The most recent solution to this is for terran to just play stupid greedy - 3 CCs off of 1 rax etc. Again, the problem with this is that because zerg can spam drones so quickly, the moment they scout a double expand they wil stop making anything other than drones, and even then, with the terran on 3 CCs, the zerg will still get to 80 drones before the terran gets to even just 50 SCVs - terrans again fall wayyyyy behind.
It seems to me that no matter whether they are aggresive or passive, terrans just can't get ahead in this matchup anymore (assuming that both players are of equal skill level).
This is why I have starting playing TvZ ForGG style - just suiciding hellions into mineral lines. It's actually what I have also been seeing from a lot of pro terrans as well. I guess the mentality is this: You can't stop the zerg from making drones, so the only other solution is to kill the drones at all costs. I saw SuperNova, MVP, Bomber and more literally suiciding hellions into mineral lines so much during IEM, but the problem with this is that it is such a huge gamble. If there are a lot of queens, 300 resources worth of roaches, spine crawlers etc. that kind of play just falls a part.'
^^My point here is that the problems with TvZ lategame have arisen becasue of the queen buff. It is so hard to pressure the zerg early now, that their drone count hits 80 by 10 minutes and Broodlords are killing your bio before you've had the change to build one thor. There is potential, however for this to be balanced by a lategame terran buff, such as that to the Raven, but to be honest, a MS buff won't really do much.
Either make zerg more vulnerable early, or make terran stronger late. Blizzard brought this rubbish upon themselves when they decided that the Queen needed to have it's utility and power doubled in a matchup that was essentially balanced up until that point. I think that Dustin went out drinking and was recovering from a hangover on the day that the devs decided that a queen buff was a fantastic idea.
Edit: At the above poster; MVP beat both Nerchio and Vortix becasue he is better than them, not becasue terran has somehow in your post gone from UP to OP. How can you even consider current zerg play styles weak when the winrate sits at 45/55 in favour of zerg internationally? MVP is just BETTER than those two. Honestly, Vortix is just bad - his teching patterns are predictable, his unit control is pretty bad, and he constantly gets into terrible engagements where he just 1a moves his entire ultralisk infestor ling army into sieged tanks and marauders. On top of this, his desicion making is so poor when looking at expansions. Even Day9 pointed out in one of his games against SuperNova (I think it was SN), he constantly fails to expand when he has the oppotunity, and he seems to always take the worst expansion avaliable. The guy is just a scrub benefiting from the current metagame which has zergs sitting on top.
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On August 19 2012 11:26 pwnopotamus wrote:
I reserve judgement on Raven usefulness until after I see Terrans use Ghosts more to counter Infestors. Ghosts can 2x snipe or EMP to take care of Infestors, then Ravens are free to HSM. Increased speed/acceleration should give Ravens the ability to run away a bit more easily than before.
Actually...I think Ravens are still largely useless due to the time it takes to get just one HSM (as you mentioned). I really just wanted to comment on the lack of good Ghost usage vs. Infestors in the TvZ matchup.
The problem with ghost is that they really not that great for anything other than this role even if your going pure bio with 3/3 they slow your bio down a good deal good zerg will just bring 2-3 overseers or FG the cloaked ghosts.
scanning and sniping a obs is great in tvp as most times they will not have more than one with there army but vs zerg every OL has the potental to be a OS makes using stealth units hard in a major battle and ghost need to be at the front.
infestors on the other hand are good vs every thing the only time that having infestors is bad is when they are out of energy
ghost could be good for the mid game before BL or ultra's but in a late game its just to much supply minreals and gas in your army to be missing (plus vs infestors EMP is just to short a radius to emp all the guys infestors you need to be damn lucky or he has to mess up bad any strat that is based on the other guy messing up is not a good one)
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Comparing how fast Zerg gets their top late game units and how fast other races get their top late game units is not really relevant. Every race works very differently and requires different transitions at different times for a variety of reasons.
It's quite clear right now that if you are good enough, you can make Ravens work very well on certain maps. They might not be the one unit to rule them all or to use in every single game, but they have a role, they perform it well and while the transition to them can be difficult or require smart planning, it certainly is possible.
The proposed speed boost for Ravens will make them even more useful and it would be wise for Blizzard to not go beyond this without seeing the effects. Small changes are often all that's required to nudge players into new strategies and get them exploring new ideas.
The Infestor is obviously a strong unit, there are lots of complaints over it hitting both ground and air, as well as it being too energy efficient and all manner of other complaints. It's become the poster child for Terran complaints and even Protoss players are in on the act too. The Infestor is used so frequently because it's incredibly important for any Zerg army to have some kind of AoE damage/control in order to have a chance at an efficient engagement, or to force a trade. The Zerg army is heavily melee oriented and melee vs. ranged is something that's impossible to balance. Without some kind of root to force engagements and allow the melee units to close the gap and deal some damage, these melee units would be even less cost effective and it would be far harder for the Zerg player to take advantage of mistakes. As the race with the weakest anti air in the game, the Infestors abilities are also very important and any change to them in a negative way will likely give aerial play against Zerg a huge boost when it's already excellent. This last fact shouldn't be forgotten when people are throwing around potential nerfs to the unit.
I personally dislike the Infestor being such an important unit for Zerg because it's not that fun always having to build the same thing if you want to have the best chance at winning, or at least not losing. If you take something away from the Infestor, then something else will need to be replacing it in order for the Zerg army to work. If you remove the root aspect of fungal for example, you'll now need to improve the ability of some Zerg melee units and anti air units at performing their roles, or they will simply be too weak without the root.
Once again I'd also like to mention the Ghost. Infestors have become such a common sight in ZvT and you see so many pro players with poor and/or sloppy Infestor control. They frequently send them into dangerous situations at the head of the army, or leave them unattended in vulnerable positions. This behaviour has become more and more prevalent since Terran players unilaterally decided to dump the Ghost. It's like in nature when the natural predator for a certain creature reduces in numbers, that creature suddenly becomes dominant and out of control. By never building Ghosts, Zerg players have become cocky and confident with their Infestors. I can tell you it's far easier to use Infestors when you never have to worry about Emp or Snipe, when you never have to build Overseers to take with your army so you can deal with Ghosts. The burden of actions you place on another player when you have a threatening cloaked unit like the Ghost around is quite high, particularly when that person is taking maximum advantage of units that Ghosts can and should be directly countering.
It's quite ridiculous for so many Terran players to incessantly complain about Infestors when they completely refuse to use Ghosts. It's like Zerg complaining about Dark Templar and refusing to build Overseers, or Protoss complaining about mass bio but never building Colossi. I feel you lose some of the right to complain about a unit if you flat out refuse to try and use one of the best counters to it. Even if you feel the Ghost wont instantly beat every Infestor army out there (there's no reason why it should, or why you should expect that) it certainly can have a profound effect on the game by simply being there and if you ask most Zerg players they will tell you this. It's also nice to remember that multi pronged Nuke harass is fantastic when done correctly, particularly against a Broodlord army. In fact, any kind of multi pronged, run by/drop play can be immensely powerful against such an army while you try to establish your Raven count (Mvp has shown this repeatedly this weekend).
Starcraft 2 is an interesting game with a lot of variety. It's never going to be truly balanced for so many reasons. Instead of always looking for one solution or one build that deals with everything you should be using your heads to think of a variety of strategies that can be employed on different maps, against different races using various strategies. What works on Metropolis or Atlantis Spaceship (Mvp's excellent Raven/BC/PF usage) wont necessarily work on Ohana (a good place for Mech!).
ZvT may be slightly tilted towards Zerg now, but it has been quite substantially tilted towards Terran for a long time previously and while I don't believe there should be 'turns' when one race is favoured over another, it does make me wonder at what point you guys will stop complaining. Are you just here to get things as close to 50% as possible? Are you here to get things back to the way they were, with Terran clearly on top? Do you simply want to get it close to 50%, but with a slight Terran edge? It can be hard to judge the motives of some of the loudest complainers as they seem to be the least rational.
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On August 20 2012 18:37 wTeffecT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 14:17 Aterons_toss wrote:
As someone who doesn't know shit about tvz from a player perspective, could i ask, what is wrong with tvz atm if you play it the same way mvp does ? Is there a "fix" needed ? isn't the speed buff enough to simply allow that MVP style to work perfectly ( since ravens will be faster than infestors... right ?, i don't remember what the speed increase was ;p ). Why do people do things like this? Why do people point to MVP and TaeJa and just say 'play like they do, TvZ is fine.' Have you maybe, just maybe considered that MVP and TaeJa are beating zergs regularly becasue THEY ARE JUST BETTER PLAYERS THAN THEIR OPPONENTS.
Have you ever considered, that the other Terrans lose to the same zergs, because THEY ARE JUST WORSE PLAYERS THAN THEIR OPPONENTS?
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On August 20 2012 18:37 wTeffecT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 14:17 Aterons_toss wrote:
As someone who doesn't know shit about tvz from a player perspective, could i ask, what is wrong with tvz atm if you play it the same way mvp does ? Is there a "fix" needed ? isn't the speed buff enough to simply allow that MVP style to work perfectly ( since ravens will be faster than infestors... right ?, i don't remember what the speed increase was ;p ). Why do people do things like this? Why do people point to MVP and TaeJa and just say 'play like they do, TvZ is fine.' Have you maybe, just maybe considered that MVP and TaeJa are beating zergs regularly becasue THEY ARE JUST BETTER PLAYERS THAN THEIR OPPONENTS. God, how can you expect Master's players to play like MVP and TaeJa? It isn't the style that makes them strong, it is their exceptional macro, unit control and map awareness that allows them to beat anyone. This exact same thing happened in the first GSL with FruitDealer, but nobody told zerg players to 'Just play like FruitDealer' becasue not everyone is freaking fruitdealer. Jesus this is such a stupid argument. Now that I've vented my annoyance at some idiocy, I want to clarify something that I said earlier: 'The problem with TvZ atm, at least in my opinion, is that the Queen buff has made all aggression from Terran borderline negligible. Hellions are far weaker at containing and harassing, early bio timings are so much weaker, and banshee openings are so much weaker. Because of this, terrans can't force the zerg to stop making drones - so when terran opens aggresively, and the zerg can just make 80 drones without batting an eyelid anyway, the terran falls wayyyy behind.
The most recent solution to this is for terran to just play stupid greedy - 3 CCs off of 1 rax etc. Again, the problem with this is that because zerg can spam drones so quickly, the moment they scout a double expand they wil stop making anything other than drones, and even then, with the terran on 3 CCs, the zerg will still get to 80 drones before the terran gets to even just 50 SCVs - terrans again fall wayyyyy behind.
It seems to me that no matter whether they are aggresive or passive, terrans just can't get ahead in this matchup anymore (assuming that both players are of equal skill level).
This is why I have starting playing TvZ ForGG style - just suiciding hellions into mineral lines. It's actually what I have also been seeing from a lot of pro terrans as well. I guess the mentality is this: You can't stop the zerg from making drones, so the only other solution is to kill the drones at all costs. I saw SuperNova, MVP, Bomber and more literally suiciding hellions into mineral lines so much during IEM, but the problem with this is that it is such a huge gamble. If there are a lot of queens, 300 resources worth of roaches, spine crawlers etc. that kind of play just falls a part.'^^My point here is that the problems with TvZ lategame have arisen becasue of the queen buff. It is so hard to pressure the zerg early now, that their drone count hits 80 by 10 minutes and Broodlords are killing your bio before you've had the change to build one thor. There is potential, however for this to be balanced by a lategame terran buff, such as that to the Raven, but to be honest, a MS buff won't really do much. Either make zerg more vulnerable early, or make terran stronger late. Blizzard brought this rubbish upon themselves when they decided that the Queen needed to have it's utility and power doubled in a matchup that was essentially balanced up until that point. I think that Dustin went out drinking and was recovering from a hangover on the day that the devs decided that a queen buff was a fantastic idea. Edit: At the above poster; MVP beat both Nerchio and Vortix becasue he is better than them, not becasue terran has somehow in your post gone from UP to OP. How can you even consider current zerg play styles weak when the winrate sits at 45/55 in favour of zerg internationally? MVP is just BETTER than those two. Honestly, Vortix is just bad - his teching patterns are predictable, his unit control is pretty bad, and he constantly gets into terrible engagements where he just 1a moves his entire ultralisk infestor ling army into sieged tanks and marauders. On top of this, his desicion making is so poor when looking at expansions. Even Day9 pointed out in one of his games against SuperNova (I think it was SN), he constantly fails to expand when he has the oppotunity, and he seems to always take the worst expansion avaliable. The guy is just a scrub benefiting from the current metagame which has zergs sitting on top.
I think your making a point thats pretty valid
the problem is its not balance thats the issue, its the level of difficulty which this is the reason that Taeja and MVP win cause they are really good players they can do the really hard stuff well and thus the disparity in difficulty in the TVZ match up is not there.
with regard to Vortix he is not bad thats a farse to say about any one competing at this level however you are right that he is predictable but thats cause he really does not have to be anything else how many times did he lose he 3rd on second to last day and still win the game loads
but why well thats simple he was doing the same build over and over to kill the 3rd the terran invested in hellions and Banshees
even if the 3rd dies and the terran loses nothing both them units have one thing in common they cannot shoot air and every game he was going spire at the time the 3rd dies the muta's are almost out soon as they are 2 things happen either the terran has little to no anti air and loses lot in his base (worse case) or he straight up lose's map control.
from this point Vortix just went on the offence bane bursts and lings (vs supernova he pretty much caught him with his pants down 2 games nothing to defend this type of attack) from this point the terran is mostly having to rebuild or is going in to the next stage of his build why Vortix was going low amount of infestors and going fast hive BL he almost always skipped the mid game and put gas in to corruptor BL and won
thats why we saw MPV and SN fighting BL with thors tanks and hellions not cause its planned cause the quick BL exploit the fact that if terran goes mass air with no ground army they straight up lose to so many things.
If vs vortix any terran had gone for a 2 base all in he would of been dead due to what he skipped. The problem with this is as always from the Terrans POV if the zerg hold just barely by the skin of there teeth the BL pop and its game.
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So according to you Big J: All Zergs have become better than lots of Terrans who were beating them before patch ?
I'm not whinning, i have a pretty decent winrates versus Zerg: but's it's a fact that a simple patch radically changes the TvZ winrates in favor of Zergs, it has NOTHING to do with Zerg suddenly getting better, all by magic.
Now, a few months of disapearance of Terrans in internationnal Tournaments, and a blizzard statement of Terrans getting suddenly smashed by Zergs in Ladder is blatly revelant than the queen patch changes a lot. And that Terran need a buff, whether or not the changes must be on the raven is a good question but your post is stupid, is biaised and don't solves anything. MVP is one of the best player in the world, Nerchio is wonderful but isn't a progamer, and Vortix haven't made anything really great before IEM.
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On August 20 2012 19:17 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:37 wTeffecT wrote:On August 20 2012 14:17 Aterons_toss wrote:
As someone who doesn't know shit about tvz from a player perspective, could i ask, what is wrong with tvz atm if you play it the same way mvp does ? Is there a "fix" needed ? isn't the speed buff enough to simply allow that MVP style to work perfectly ( since ravens will be faster than infestors... right ?, i don't remember what the speed increase was ;p ). Why do people do things like this? Why do people point to MVP and TaeJa and just say 'play like they do, TvZ is fine.' Have you maybe, just maybe considered that MVP and TaeJa are beating zergs regularly becasue THEY ARE JUST BETTER PLAYERS THAN THEIR OPPONENTS. Have you ever considered, that the other Terrans lose to the same zergs, because THEY ARE JUST WORSE PLAYERS THAN THEIR OPPONENTS?
So your saying that the 45/55 win rate in TvZ has come about becasue somehow, on that exact day that patch 1.4.3 was introduced, all zerg players on average just became better than all terran players? Yeah smart. Real logical.
Learn to use that big mass of flesh sitting inside of your skull.
Exceptional skill explains just that, the exceptions (MVP and TaeJa).
Edit: ^^ got in before me XD
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On August 19 2012 11:32 Ozell wrote:
As a spectator, I find tvz to be effing boring since the queen buff...
TvZ now equals no rush 20 minutes.
You watching silver league games, so much more early-mid game pressure from terran as they feel zerg has an easy time since the queen change, drones, creep etc.
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On August 20 2012 19:25 DuckNuked wrote:
So according to you Big J: All Zergs have become better than lots of Terrans who were beating them before patch ?
No. Where did I write something like this?
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The only balance issues in this matchup are mainly in EU, and I think it's not because T being bad, but because european zergs are just becoming too good(there are way more Z in EU than terran) The top terrans, in both EU, Korea and US are doing really well in TvZ still.
And saying raven are only good if Z makes mistake is the most wrong thing I have ever heard. With perfect spreads, raven are still cost-effictive, but if Z clumbs up it's an instant loss vs HSM.
People also forget that HSM is not the only unit, you have PDD that you can use, making corrupters useless so that vikings can attack blords freely. If you're vs ultralisk compostion, it's even stronger being able to HSM on all the lings and blings instead, the infestors will always be a bit in the back, so it's easy to hit before ravens get fungal
More important than anything, people forget that auto turrets are also insanely good, you don't get as many of them but they are better than infested terrans and they start to attack instantly...
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EPT
