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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 20 2012 22:28 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:19 vthree wrote:On August 20 2012 21:14 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 20:42 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 20 2012 20:40 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 19:58 syriuszonito wrote:
Lol, the reduced creep spread and raven buff is a very good move by blizzard and exactly address the problem with zvt atm (that is inefficiency of mid game pushes bcoz of creep spread and a lategame deathball by zerg). If you think that the queen range buff should be reverted so you can again control the game since 5 min with 4 helions then its time for you to wake up and start thinking about new strategies instead of making xXx qq topics on forum about balance. In all seriousness I wonder why Avilo makes these topics instead of trying to improve and incorperate the new changes into his game play. It's not going to change anything. You wonder why because you have likely never played terran. Queen buff should not be reverted completely, but a jump from 3-5 range was too much. It should go back to 4. The creep change is a step in the right direction, but ravens are just a completely different tech path from anything useful in the TvZ early game so that is not the right area to address for this matchup. Unless you're GM or high master I highly doubt a Queen having 2 extra range is the reason you're losing. go improve your macro go improve your game sense go switch up some builds whining about a change that isn't ridiculous seems silly (i'm talking colossus 22 range silly) when you have so many other aspects you can improve to get the win through those means Does Avilo have amazing gamesense? Does he have amazing macro? Has he switched up his builds and tried new things and timings? I can guess the answer to these based on how many times he's written out posts such as these addressing things that don't really matter to him.(don't get me wrong he's a decent semi-pro) Perhaps he should go practice and aquire these things through practicing and working hard instead of writing a new balance post every 3 weeks. Watching IdrA v Bomber at one of the MLGs I can't remember (it was a while ago but still relevant) proved the power of Terran macro and never missing cycles where everytime idrA just managed to destroy the army Bomber had 1 almost surpassing the previous' size ready to send, and the main reason why IdrA managed to deal with it was because of how on with his injects he was and matching Bomber's macro Don't blame an extra 2 range on something that is really irrelevant when you can just improve other aspects and win regardless. Korean Terrans sucked it up and did the above. The result? They're winning. Actually, MVP mentioned a lot of times he was struggling with vZ. Funny thing is, when the TOP pros complain or comment on balance, people always say they that of course they will complain so their race gets buffed and can win more money. So, non top players can't comment on balance and top players can't comment on balance. A lot of Korean Terrans mentioned they were struggling vZ as I expect they would when they answer isn't clear, when they start seriously implying it's flat out impossible thats when to get worried. I expect the same happened in Brood War when a metagame shift happened there except a lot of them didn't get interviewed and thus get a chance to express their thoughts on Brood War balance. On a side note Leenock recently said that he was struggling as Zerg, therefore who to believe?
Just because something is beatable doesn't mean it's balanced. Blizzard could give a +1 attack and range buff along with combat shield not needing a research to the marine and it would be beatable early game, but pretty difficult. I'm willing to bet Zerg players would start whining to no end about it though. Zerg would cry they can't hatch first anymore even though it'd be the same situation you and other people point out that Terran is just upset they can't do the same builds anymore.
I said it before. 5 rax reaper on Steppes of War was beatable. Proxy 2 rax bunker pressure was beatable. Bfh and marine elevator in the main was beatable. Where were your Zerg innovations then? Why didn't Zerg adapt to the game? Why did pro Zerg players (Nestea even claimed T was imba even though he won a GSL) complain about stuff like that? They could have just gotten better but no they did exactly what Terran is doing now.
Innovation is Protoss getting smashed by 1-1-1 in PvT and learning the proper scouting method, unit compositions, and positioning to deal with it. An even decently executed 1-1-1 in TvP is pretty much unstoppable in anything lower than masters. Zerg never did anything of the sort. So I completely disregard any Zerg telling Terran to stop whining and innovate because Terran has innovated much more than Zerg ever has, but gets nerfed everytime they do.
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I read "avilo" and started reading this with a big smile :D
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On August 20 2012 21:13 CaptainCrush wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:52 Juisson wrote:On August 20 2012 20:42 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 20 2012 20:40 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 19:58 syriuszonito wrote:
Lol, the reduced creep spread and raven buff is a very good move by blizzard and exactly address the problem with zvt atm (that is inefficiency of mid game pushes bcoz of creep spread and a lategame deathball by zerg). If you think that the queen range buff should be reverted so you can again control the game since 5 min with 4 helions then its time for you to wake up and start thinking about new strategies instead of making xXx qq topics on forum about balance. In all seriousness I wonder why Avilo makes these topics instead of trying to improve and incorperate the new changes into his game play. It's not going to change anything. You wonder why because you have likely never played terran. Queen buff should not be reverted completely, but a jump from 3-5 range was too much. It should go back to 4. The creep change is a step in the right direction, but ravens are just a completely different tech path from anything useful in the TvZ early game so that is not the right area to address for this matchup. Like banshees? They can give a terran an edge, but again, with that queen buff they are more of a gimmick than anything dangerous. They can kill a few drones before zerg defends but then they are useless unless the army moves out with no AA. Then once infestors hit they are beyond useless, at that point its kinda like making hydras in a TvZ.
Queen buff didn't affect their anti-air attack at all.... Only their ground one. Banshees becoming less useful has to do with the change in timings, and zergs getting better at defending.
About the topic at hand, I am not good enough to comment much.
Although I have the *feeling* zerg may be a BIT strong in the match up. BUT, at the same time I don't see enough variation in Terran playstyles to say that these balance problems are real or just an adaptation problem.
BCs + Yamato, Banshees + HS, Ghosts + Nukes should be tested more before any heavy balance changes.
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On August 20 2012 21:13 CaptainCrush wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:52 Juisson wrote:On August 20 2012 20:42 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 20 2012 20:40 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 19:58 syriuszonito wrote:
Lol, the reduced creep spread and raven buff is a very good move by blizzard and exactly address the problem with zvt atm (that is inefficiency of mid game pushes bcoz of creep spread and a lategame deathball by zerg). If you think that the queen range buff should be reverted so you can again control the game since 5 min with 4 helions then its time for you to wake up and start thinking about new strategies instead of making xXx qq topics on forum about balance. In all seriousness I wonder why Avilo makes these topics instead of trying to improve and incorperate the new changes into his game play. It's not going to change anything. You wonder why because you have likely never played terran. Queen buff should not be reverted completely, but a jump from 3-5 range was too much. It should go back to 4. The creep change is a step in the right direction, but ravens are just a completely different tech path from anything useful in the TvZ early game so that is not the right area to address for this matchup. Like banshees? They can give a terran an edge, but again, with that queen buff they are more of a gimmick than anything dangerous. They can kill a few drones before zerg defends but then they are useless unless the army moves out with no AA. Then once infestors hit they are beyond useless, at that point its kinda like making hydras in a TvZ.
I wouldn't say useless... If all else fails, they are a great way to control the map, and expand behind.
P.S. - Air attack didn't change...
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I think terrans should go back to try using more ghosts against zerg. I understand that the ghost is alot worse than it was a few patches go, but emp'ing infestors is really important when playing against broodlord infestor. The tricky part would probobly be ultra transitions, but emp'ing infestors would make it alot easier. There also would be the utility of nukes as well as snipe that u can use on overseers to remain cloaked.
Ravens are really hard to get to and im not sure what Blizzard could to make them worth it without making it op. Perhapps try a reasonable health buff?
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On August 20 2012 22:37 Solarist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:01 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 21:54 Solarist wrote:On August 20 2012 21:14 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 20:42 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 20 2012 20:40 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 19:58 syriuszonito wrote:
Lol, the reduced creep spread and raven buff is a very good move by blizzard and exactly address the problem with zvt atm (that is inefficiency of mid game pushes bcoz of creep spread and a lategame deathball by zerg). If you think that the queen range buff should be reverted so you can again control the game since 5 min with 4 helions then its time for you to wake up and start thinking about new strategies instead of making xXx qq topics on forum about balance. In all seriousness I wonder why Avilo makes these topics instead of trying to improve and incorperate the new changes into his game play. It's not going to change anything. You wonder why because you have likely never played terran. Queen buff should not be reverted completely, but a jump from 3-5 range was too much. It should go back to 4. The creep change is a step in the right direction, but ravens are just a completely different tech path from anything useful in the TvZ early game so that is not the right area to address for this matchup. Unless you're GM or high master I highly doubt a Queen having 2 extra range is the reason you're losing. go improve your macro go improve your game sense go switch up some builds whining about a change that isn't ridiculous seems silly (i'm talking colossus 22 range silly) when you have so many other aspects you can improve to get the win through those means Does Avilo have amazing gamesense? Does he have amazing macro? Has he switched up his builds and tried new things and timings? I can guess the answer to these based on how many times he's written out posts such as these addressing things that don't really matter to him.(don't get me wrong he's a decent semi-pro) Perhaps he should go practice and aquire these things through practicing and working hard instead of writing a new balance post every 3 weeks. Watching IdrA v Bomber at one of the MLGs I can't remember (it was a while ago but still relevant) proved the power of Terran macro and never missing cycles where everytime idrA just managed to destroy the army Bomber had 1 almost surpassing the previous' size ready to send, and the main reason why IdrA managed to deal with it was because of how on with his injects he was and matching Bomber's macro Don't blame an extra 2 range on something that is really irrelevant when you can just improve other aspects and win regardless. Korean Terrans sucked it up and did the above. The result? They're winning. Well now i've seen you defend zerg in every thread containing the word Terran, and all you've basicly said is that terran should get better and questioning peoples skill in every form. I gotta ask, what rank GM are you and how many years have you been pro? Every thread as in this one and the one where I defend JRecco's improvement in form as he left school? I'll question your credentials on stating there is a problem first before I show you mine for defending the whine So in other words you arent high rated, woudent that be easier to say? And stop saying other people should just play better when you arent pro yourself.
In e-sports involving team play people blame teammates when they lose, in Starcraft 2 since it's 1v1, people will rather blame balance before trying to improve themselves because it's a natural human reaction. Having that said blizzard is doing a good job at balancing the game, only long-term bad results would prove anything wrong with any match-ups and seems like 51% vs 49% isnt something to blame your lose over.
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On August 20 2012 22:53 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 21:13 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 20 2012 20:52 Juisson wrote:On August 20 2012 20:42 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 20 2012 20:40 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 19:58 syriuszonito wrote:
Lol, the reduced creep spread and raven buff is a very good move by blizzard and exactly address the problem with zvt atm (that is inefficiency of mid game pushes bcoz of creep spread and a lategame deathball by zerg). If you think that the queen range buff should be reverted so you can again control the game since 5 min with 4 helions then its time for you to wake up and start thinking about new strategies instead of making xXx qq topics on forum about balance. In all seriousness I wonder why Avilo makes these topics instead of trying to improve and incorperate the new changes into his game play. It's not going to change anything. You wonder why because you have likely never played terran. Queen buff should not be reverted completely, but a jump from 3-5 range was too much. It should go back to 4. The creep change is a step in the right direction, but ravens are just a completely different tech path from anything useful in the TvZ early game so that is not the right area to address for this matchup. Like banshees? They can give a terran an edge, but again, with that queen buff they are more of a gimmick than anything dangerous. They can kill a few drones before zerg defends but then they are useless unless the army moves out with no AA. Then once infestors hit they are beyond useless, at that point its kinda like making hydras in a TvZ. Queen buff didn't affect their anti-air attack at all.... Only their ground one. Banshees becoming less useful has to do with the change in timings, and zergs getting better at defending. About the topic at hand, I am not good enough to comment much. Although I have the *feeling* zerg may be a BIT strong in the match up. BUT, at the same time I don't see enough variation in Terran playstyles to say that these balance problems are real or just an adaptation problem. BCs + Yamato, Banshees + HS, Ghosts + Nukes should be tested more before any heavy balance changes.
Queen buff didn't affect their anti-air. But since they are much better at holding ground aggressive. Zergs are making more queens and less lings/spines so in effect, zerg opening are MUCH better vs banshees.
As for your BC, Ghosts, etc. No one has every claimed that super late game terran army is not good. It is just very HARD to make that transition without dying first. The reason why there have been more complaints about infestor/BL from terrans is that the queen changes made zergs able to drone harder in the early game thus earlier tech, more queens for creep spread which makes the terran pre BL tank marine push much easier to hold. The BL/Corrupter/Infestor combo wasn't changed at all in the patch, but GETTING there is a lot easier.
Things snowball a lot in RTS games. Even being able to have 3 more drones on gas early game just speeds up everything so much.
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On August 20 2012 23:00 Radament wrote:Ravens are really hard to get to and im not sure what Blizzard could to make them worth it without making it op. Perhapps try a reasonable health buff?
Imo the best would be to buff the launch range of HSM while nerfing it's speed (and maybe it's lifespan). That way Ravens are no suicide commandos anymore. The HSM being quite slow would let most units out-run it, but that's also an effect. Picking just 1 unit out of your army and sending it away, because it's got the HSM lock isn't that easy. Atleast players would profit from good micro skills. For the not so good players it's run away with the whole army, which can be a tactical advantage for the Terran.
The only unit that couldn't out-run is probably the Broodlord. But then you can spread them and/or guard them properly.
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On August 20 2012 23:11 Bellazuk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:37 Solarist wrote:On August 20 2012 22:01 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 21:54 Solarist wrote:On August 20 2012 21:14 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 20:42 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 20 2012 20:40 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 19:58 syriuszonito wrote:
Lol, the reduced creep spread and raven buff is a very good move by blizzard and exactly address the problem with zvt atm (that is inefficiency of mid game pushes bcoz of creep spread and a lategame deathball by zerg). If you think that the queen range buff should be reverted so you can again control the game since 5 min with 4 helions then its time for you to wake up and start thinking about new strategies instead of making xXx qq topics on forum about balance. In all seriousness I wonder why Avilo makes these topics instead of trying to improve and incorperate the new changes into his game play. It's not going to change anything. You wonder why because you have likely never played terran. Queen buff should not be reverted completely, but a jump from 3-5 range was too much. It should go back to 4. The creep change is a step in the right direction, but ravens are just a completely different tech path from anything useful in the TvZ early game so that is not the right area to address for this matchup. Unless you're GM or high master I highly doubt a Queen having 2 extra range is the reason you're losing. go improve your macro go improve your game sense go switch up some builds whining about a change that isn't ridiculous seems silly (i'm talking colossus 22 range silly) when you have so many other aspects you can improve to get the win through those means Does Avilo have amazing gamesense? Does he have amazing macro? Has he switched up his builds and tried new things and timings? I can guess the answer to these based on how many times he's written out posts such as these addressing things that don't really matter to him.(don't get me wrong he's a decent semi-pro) Perhaps he should go practice and aquire these things through practicing and working hard instead of writing a new balance post every 3 weeks. Watching IdrA v Bomber at one of the MLGs I can't remember (it was a while ago but still relevant) proved the power of Terran macro and never missing cycles where everytime idrA just managed to destroy the army Bomber had 1 almost surpassing the previous' size ready to send, and the main reason why IdrA managed to deal with it was because of how on with his injects he was and matching Bomber's macro Don't blame an extra 2 range on something that is really irrelevant when you can just improve other aspects and win regardless. Korean Terrans sucked it up and did the above. The result? They're winning. Well now i've seen you defend zerg in every thread containing the word Terran, and all you've basicly said is that terran should get better and questioning peoples skill in every form. I gotta ask, what rank GM are you and how many years have you been pro? Every thread as in this one and the one where I defend JRecco's improvement in form as he left school? I'll question your credentials on stating there is a problem first before I show you mine for defending the whine So in other words you arent high rated, woudent that be easier to say? And stop saying other people should just play better when you arent pro yourself. In e-sports involving team play people blame teammates when they lose, in Starcraft 2 since it's 1v1, people will rather blame balance before trying to improve themselves because it's a natural human reaction. Having that said blizzard is doing a good job at balancing the game, only long-term bad results would prove anything wrong with any match-ups and seems like 51% vs 49% isnt something to blame your lose over.
It is not just Blizzard balancing. It is also the maps. I think if you bought back Steppes of War, T will still do will even with the queen patch.
And I don't agree that you can't complain because there are still improvements you can make to your game. EVERYONE can still make improves including MVP, Taeja, MKP, DRG, MC, Seed. I think it comes down to the difficulty in execution for the attacking and defending player. One good example of this would be the 1-1-1. It was pretty abusive. It was possible to hold it off but the margin for error was much less. Many protoss players complained. It was not like they were facing a PuMa 1-1-1 on ladder. I am sure that if you are in Platinum, you can hold off a 1-1-1 with better play. Doesn that mean they don't have a right to complain?
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On August 20 2012 22:50 bellsNkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:28 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:19 vthree wrote:On August 20 2012 21:14 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 20:42 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 20 2012 20:40 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 19:58 syriuszonito wrote:
Lol, the reduced creep spread and raven buff is a very good move by blizzard and exactly address the problem with zvt atm (that is inefficiency of mid game pushes bcoz of creep spread and a lategame deathball by zerg). If you think that the queen range buff should be reverted so you can again control the game since 5 min with 4 helions then its time for you to wake up and start thinking about new strategies instead of making xXx qq topics on forum about balance. In all seriousness I wonder why Avilo makes these topics instead of trying to improve and incorperate the new changes into his game play. It's not going to change anything. You wonder why because you have likely never played terran. Queen buff should not be reverted completely, but a jump from 3-5 range was too much. It should go back to 4. The creep change is a step in the right direction, but ravens are just a completely different tech path from anything useful in the TvZ early game so that is not the right area to address for this matchup. Unless you're GM or high master I highly doubt a Queen having 2 extra range is the reason you're losing. go improve your macro go improve your game sense go switch up some builds whining about a change that isn't ridiculous seems silly (i'm talking colossus 22 range silly) when you have so many other aspects you can improve to get the win through those means Does Avilo have amazing gamesense? Does he have amazing macro? Has he switched up his builds and tried new things and timings? I can guess the answer to these based on how many times he's written out posts such as these addressing things that don't really matter to him.(don't get me wrong he's a decent semi-pro) Perhaps he should go practice and aquire these things through practicing and working hard instead of writing a new balance post every 3 weeks. Watching IdrA v Bomber at one of the MLGs I can't remember (it was a while ago but still relevant) proved the power of Terran macro and never missing cycles where everytime idrA just managed to destroy the army Bomber had 1 almost surpassing the previous' size ready to send, and the main reason why IdrA managed to deal with it was because of how on with his injects he was and matching Bomber's macro Don't blame an extra 2 range on something that is really irrelevant when you can just improve other aspects and win regardless. Korean Terrans sucked it up and did the above. The result? They're winning. Actually, MVP mentioned a lot of times he was struggling with vZ. Funny thing is, when the TOP pros complain or comment on balance, people always say they that of course they will complain so their race gets buffed and can win more money. So, non top players can't comment on balance and top players can't comment on balance. A lot of Korean Terrans mentioned they were struggling vZ as I expect they would when they answer isn't clear, when they start seriously implying it's flat out impossible thats when to get worried. I expect the same happened in Brood War when a metagame shift happened there except a lot of them didn't get interviewed and thus get a chance to express their thoughts on Brood War balance. On a side note Leenock recently said that he was struggling as Zerg, therefore who to believe? Just because something is beatable doesn't mean it's balanced. Blizzard could give a +1 attack and range buff along with combat shield not needing a research to the marine and it would be beatable early game, but pretty difficult. I'm willing to bet Zerg players would start whining to no end about it though. Zerg would cry they can't hatch first anymore even though it'd be the same situation you and other people point out that Terran is just upset they can't do the same builds anymore. I said it before. 5 rax reaper on Steppes of War was beatable. Proxy 2 rax bunker pressure was beatable. Bfh and marine elevator in the main was beatable. Where were your Zerg innovations then? Why didn't Zerg adapt to the game? Why did pro Zerg players (Nestea even claimed T was imba even though he won a GSL) complain about stuff like that? They could have just gotten better but no they did exactly what Terran is doing now. Innovation is Protoss getting smashed by 1-1-1 in PvT and learning the proper scouting method, unit compositions, and positioning to deal with it. An even decently executed 1-1-1 in TvP is pretty much unstoppable in anything lower than masters. Zerg never did anything of the sort. So I completely disregard any Zerg telling Terran to stop whining and innovate because Terran has innovated much more than Zerg ever has, but gets nerfed everytime they do.
OT but Protoss got +1 to Immortal range and Terran +5 seconds to barracks build time. Protoss got patched out of 1/1/1
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On August 20 2012 23:29 Trololol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:50 bellsNkeys wrote:On August 20 2012 22:28 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:19 vthree wrote:On August 20 2012 21:14 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 20:42 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 20 2012 20:40 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 19:58 syriuszonito wrote:
Lol, the reduced creep spread and raven buff is a very good move by blizzard and exactly address the problem with zvt atm (that is inefficiency of mid game pushes bcoz of creep spread and a lategame deathball by zerg). If you think that the queen range buff should be reverted so you can again control the game since 5 min with 4 helions then its time for you to wake up and start thinking about new strategies instead of making xXx qq topics on forum about balance. In all seriousness I wonder why Avilo makes these topics instead of trying to improve and incorperate the new changes into his game play. It's not going to change anything. You wonder why because you have likely never played terran. Queen buff should not be reverted completely, but a jump from 3-5 range was too much. It should go back to 4. The creep change is a step in the right direction, but ravens are just a completely different tech path from anything useful in the TvZ early game so that is not the right area to address for this matchup. Unless you're GM or high master I highly doubt a Queen having 2 extra range is the reason you're losing. go improve your macro go improve your game sense go switch up some builds whining about a change that isn't ridiculous seems silly (i'm talking colossus 22 range silly) when you have so many other aspects you can improve to get the win through those means Does Avilo have amazing gamesense? Does he have amazing macro? Has he switched up his builds and tried new things and timings? I can guess the answer to these based on how many times he's written out posts such as these addressing things that don't really matter to him.(don't get me wrong he's a decent semi-pro) Perhaps he should go practice and aquire these things through practicing and working hard instead of writing a new balance post every 3 weeks. Watching IdrA v Bomber at one of the MLGs I can't remember (it was a while ago but still relevant) proved the power of Terran macro and never missing cycles where everytime idrA just managed to destroy the army Bomber had 1 almost surpassing the previous' size ready to send, and the main reason why IdrA managed to deal with it was because of how on with his injects he was and matching Bomber's macro Don't blame an extra 2 range on something that is really irrelevant when you can just improve other aspects and win regardless. Korean Terrans sucked it up and did the above. The result? They're winning. Actually, MVP mentioned a lot of times he was struggling with vZ. Funny thing is, when the TOP pros complain or comment on balance, people always say they that of course they will complain so their race gets buffed and can win more money. So, non top players can't comment on balance and top players can't comment on balance. A lot of Korean Terrans mentioned they were struggling vZ as I expect they would when they answer isn't clear, when they start seriously implying it's flat out impossible thats when to get worried. I expect the same happened in Brood War when a metagame shift happened there except a lot of them didn't get interviewed and thus get a chance to express their thoughts on Brood War balance. On a side note Leenock recently said that he was struggling as Zerg, therefore who to believe? Just because something is beatable doesn't mean it's balanced. Blizzard could give a +1 attack and range buff along with combat shield not needing a research to the marine and it would be beatable early game, but pretty difficult. I'm willing to bet Zerg players would start whining to no end about it though. Zerg would cry they can't hatch first anymore even though it'd be the same situation you and other people point out that Terran is just upset they can't do the same builds anymore. I said it before. 5 rax reaper on Steppes of War was beatable. Proxy 2 rax bunker pressure was beatable. Bfh and marine elevator in the main was beatable. Where were your Zerg innovations then? Why didn't Zerg adapt to the game? Why did pro Zerg players (Nestea even claimed T was imba even though he won a GSL) complain about stuff like that? They could have just gotten better but no they did exactly what Terran is doing now. Innovation is Protoss getting smashed by 1-1-1 in PvT and learning the proper scouting method, unit compositions, and positioning to deal with it. An even decently executed 1-1-1 in TvP is pretty much unstoppable in anything lower than masters. Zerg never did anything of the sort. So I completely disregard any Zerg telling Terran to stop whining and innovate because Terran has innovated much more than Zerg ever has, but gets nerfed everytime they do. OT but Protoss got +1 to Immortal range and Terran +5 seconds to barracks build time. Protoss got patched out of 1/1/1
I think it was a bit of both. Protosses were getting better at holding it and of course the patch help. A lot of map changes as well (cross spawns, removal of some maps in tournaments).
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This thread is a disgrace to TL. We have gold leaguers saying Zerg is an easy race and ad hominim everywhere. The few that say practice is more important than whining are actually the minority in this thread. What happened to banning people for this stuff? Is this meant to be the quarantine thread for everyone's bullshit balance whining?
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On August 20 2012 23:33 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 23:29 Trololol wrote:On August 20 2012 22:50 bellsNkeys wrote:On August 20 2012 22:28 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:19 vthree wrote:On August 20 2012 21:14 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 20:42 CaptainCrush wrote:On August 20 2012 20:40 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 19:58 syriuszonito wrote:
Lol, the reduced creep spread and raven buff is a very good move by blizzard and exactly address the problem with zvt atm (that is inefficiency of mid game pushes bcoz of creep spread and a lategame deathball by zerg). If you think that the queen range buff should be reverted so you can again control the game since 5 min with 4 helions then its time for you to wake up and start thinking about new strategies instead of making xXx qq topics on forum about balance. In all seriousness I wonder why Avilo makes these topics instead of trying to improve and incorperate the new changes into his game play. It's not going to change anything. You wonder why because you have likely never played terran. Queen buff should not be reverted completely, but a jump from 3-5 range was too much. It should go back to 4. The creep change is a step in the right direction, but ravens are just a completely different tech path from anything useful in the TvZ early game so that is not the right area to address for this matchup. Unless you're GM or high master I highly doubt a Queen having 2 extra range is the reason you're losing. go improve your macro go improve your game sense go switch up some builds whining about a change that isn't ridiculous seems silly (i'm talking colossus 22 range silly) when you have so many other aspects you can improve to get the win through those means Does Avilo have amazing gamesense? Does he have amazing macro? Has he switched up his builds and tried new things and timings? I can guess the answer to these based on how many times he's written out posts such as these addressing things that don't really matter to him.(don't get me wrong he's a decent semi-pro) Perhaps he should go practice and aquire these things through practicing and working hard instead of writing a new balance post every 3 weeks. Watching IdrA v Bomber at one of the MLGs I can't remember (it was a while ago but still relevant) proved the power of Terran macro and never missing cycles where everytime idrA just managed to destroy the army Bomber had 1 almost surpassing the previous' size ready to send, and the main reason why IdrA managed to deal with it was because of how on with his injects he was and matching Bomber's macro Don't blame an extra 2 range on something that is really irrelevant when you can just improve other aspects and win regardless. Korean Terrans sucked it up and did the above. The result? They're winning. Actually, MVP mentioned a lot of times he was struggling with vZ. Funny thing is, when the TOP pros complain or comment on balance, people always say they that of course they will complain so their race gets buffed and can win more money. So, non top players can't comment on balance and top players can't comment on balance. A lot of Korean Terrans mentioned they were struggling vZ as I expect they would when they answer isn't clear, when they start seriously implying it's flat out impossible thats when to get worried. I expect the same happened in Brood War when a metagame shift happened there except a lot of them didn't get interviewed and thus get a chance to express their thoughts on Brood War balance. On a side note Leenock recently said that he was struggling as Zerg, therefore who to believe? Just because something is beatable doesn't mean it's balanced. Blizzard could give a +1 attack and range buff along with combat shield not needing a research to the marine and it would be beatable early game, but pretty difficult. I'm willing to bet Zerg players would start whining to no end about it though. Zerg would cry they can't hatch first anymore even though it'd be the same situation you and other people point out that Terran is just upset they can't do the same builds anymore. I said it before. 5 rax reaper on Steppes of War was beatable. Proxy 2 rax bunker pressure was beatable. Bfh and marine elevator in the main was beatable. Where were your Zerg innovations then? Why didn't Zerg adapt to the game? Why did pro Zerg players (Nestea even claimed T was imba even though he won a GSL) complain about stuff like that? They could have just gotten better but no they did exactly what Terran is doing now. Innovation is Protoss getting smashed by 1-1-1 in PvT and learning the proper scouting method, unit compositions, and positioning to deal with it. An even decently executed 1-1-1 in TvP is pretty much unstoppable in anything lower than masters. Zerg never did anything of the sort. So I completely disregard any Zerg telling Terran to stop whining and innovate because Terran has innovated much more than Zerg ever has, but gets nerfed everytime they do. OT but Protoss got +1 to Immortal range and Terran +5 seconds to barracks build time. Protoss got patched out of 1/1/1 I think it was a bit of both. Protosses were getting better at holding it and of course the patch help. A lot of map changes as well (cross spawns, removal of some maps in tournaments).
I think it was more the patch turned the situation around and made immortal pushs suddenly really strong against bunkers of a terran. Where before tosses started to not lose their natural anymore, which was also map based though. But I think it turned out fine that way. Doesn't even bothers me anymore that they are now way to easy to control, gives me time for other things.
But it affected mech actually quiet heavily, as now suddenly hellions can't protect tanks anymore, because they have to drive out to far in the front and have to enter aoe range of the opponent, while the aoe is outside of tank range. Thors also can't 250mm them that easily anymore, because they can run out of range before getting affected. It is really impressive what a small range buff can do. Luckily ghosts are easy to use with mech now. And it is nice to see the immortal used more often, without it spidering around trying to retreat or attack and fail at both, which was quiet a painful sight.
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On August 20 2012 11:56 KawaiiRice wrote:
I wish we could just get irradiate back to replace HSM.
Terran's only aoe spell is HSM which is a projectile costs a lot and takes time blah blah etc.
Protoss has storm which is instant and DOT
zerg's spell is also instant DOT and root.
replacing hsm with irradiate would make it more in line with the other races/useful overall/easier to balance and also more interesting to watch in general (mass hsm is like KABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMM, well, game over).
Words of Wisdom from Kawaii Rice.
So good.
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On August 20 2012 12:20 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:12 BgSBendeR wrote:
@Avilo, TvZ is fine.
If you spent all that time practising instead of whining on the internet. You might actually become slightly better.
Mvp makes good use of the raven and doesn't complain about TvZ Balance so your entire post is irrelevant.
Lack of whining from the best SC2 player to date, when he never really says anything in the first place, doesn't say much. TvZ isn't broken. Terran is just UP. We have no late game, and therein lies the problem. This buff does not help the late game. Ravens are still not worth what they cost. If Zerg is going to be uncontested, make sure Terran has a viable late game. That solves the TvP issue as well.
I think that replacing HSM with irradiate would be the way to go in terms of tweaking this late game. And I agree that it would solve the late game problem for Terran.
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On August 21 2012 00:34 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 11:56 KawaiiRice wrote:
I wish we could just get irradiate back to replace HSM.
Terran's only aoe spell is HSM which is a projectile costs a lot and takes time blah blah etc.
Protoss has storm which is instant and DOT
zerg's spell is also instant DOT and root.
replacing hsm with irradiate would make it more in line with the other races/useful overall/easier to balance and also more interesting to watch in general (mass hsm is like KABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMM, well, game over). Words of Wisdom from Kawaii Rice. So good.
and just think about it, irradiate on tanks, kills any lings that comes running by
welp
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On August 20 2012 13:08 BgSBendeR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 13:05 bellsNkeys wrote:On August 20 2012 12:30 BgSBendeR wrote:On August 20 2012 12:20 Femari wrote:On August 20 2012 12:12 BgSBendeR wrote:
@Avilo, TvZ is fine.
If you spent all that time practising instead of whining on the internet. You might actually become slightly better.
Mvp makes good use of the raven and doesn't complain about TvZ Balance so your entire post is irrelevant.
Lack of whining from the best SC2 player to date, when he never really says anything in the first place, doesn't say much. TvZ isn't broken. Terran is just UP. We have no late game, and therein lies the problem. This buff does not help the late game. Ravens are still not worth what they cost. If Zerg is going to be uncontested, make sure Terran has a viable late game. That solves the TvP issue as well. Terran has no late game? What in the actual fuck. Terran actually has the best late game army of the 3 races. Mvp beats zerg late game. so yes You guys are whining for no reason. Start actually practising and maybe you won't be as bad. Fruitdealer won the first GSL. Why was reaper and medivac nerfed right after? Fruitdealer beat Terran players so why didn't Zerg players just do what he did? Maybe they should have just practiced more so they wouldn't be so bad. You see how using a small sample size to make your point makes you ignorant? When the majority of Terran players (pros included) haven an issue with something it should be addressed. You can't just sit here and be like "hey one guy beat it, wth is everyone else complaining about." And yes, Mvp does lose to late game zerg too. He played late game TvZ beautifully at IEM, yet players he is significantly better than (I will give credit to Vortix and Nerchio, but they are not even close to Mvp's level) gave him a much harder time than he should have. If one player is doing it, It simply means that it's possible. Perfection comes from practice. Mvp did not get to where he is today by whining on the internet with every patch. *Edit typo.
Not sure how this guy gets away when he keeps posting incendiary comments.
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On August 20 2012 20:56 Natespank wrote:
0 terrans remain in the winners bracket of WCG korea- it's nice that Blizzard intends to tweak TvZ lategame, but they haven't done a thing to help out in TvP lategame. Terran is already the hardest of the 3 races by far overall, it would be nice to see some acknowledgment in the form of a balance tweak... and not a crappy speed bonus to the raven. The raven, to come into regular use, needs more than .25 speed...
I think Blizzard is finally seeing the problem after a long, long time of needing something of this kind.
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According to this logic. BW never was a decent game, cause if there is something difficult to overcome, it needs to be patched. Guess what, BW havent been patched for a long long time, and still it is amazingly competetive. Although WoL is a different beast, glaring imbalances should be patched, but not several months after patch. There will be no patch before Hots anyway, why bother.
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On August 21 2012 00:37 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:34 zmansman17 wrote:On August 20 2012 11:56 KawaiiRice wrote:
I wish we could just get irradiate back to replace HSM.
Terran's only aoe spell is HSM which is a projectile costs a lot and takes time blah blah etc.
Protoss has storm which is instant and DOT
zerg's spell is also instant DOT and root.
replacing hsm with irradiate would make it more in line with the other races/useful overall/easier to balance and also more interesting to watch in general (mass hsm is like KABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMM, well, game over). Words of Wisdom from Kawaii Rice. So good. and just think about it, irradiate on tanks, kills any lings that comes running by welp
Why would lings run right into tanks, which are irradiated? It's not like energy is free or can be repeatedly cast. Give Zergs more respect than just running their lings into irradiated units.
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EPT
