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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 21 2012 08:14 FlukyS wrote: Late game yes I suppose so it doesn't mean much but if you are going banshee how is it a problem to make 1 raven? Because investing 200 gas in a non combat unit that grants you no map control and auto dies to alot of shit is going to help you in the early game? | ||
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chadissilent
Canada1187 Posts
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
[QUOTE]On August 20 2012 14:17 Aterons_toss wrote: Edit: At the above poster; MVP beat both Nerchio and Vortix becasue he is better than them, not becasue terran has somehow in your post gone from UP to OP. How can you even consider current zerg play styles weak when the winrate sits at 45/55 in favour of zerg internationally? MVP is just BETTER than those two. Honestly, Vortix is just bad - his teching patterns are predictable, his unit control is pretty bad, and he constantly gets into terrible engagements where he just 1a moves his entire ultralisk infestor ling army into sieged tanks and marauders. On top of this, his desicion making is so poor when looking at expansions. Even Day9 pointed out in one of his games against SuperNova (I think it was SN), he constantly fails to expand when he has the oppotunity, and he seems to always take the worst expansion avaliable. The guy is just a scrub benefiting from the current metagame which has zergs sitting on top.[/QUOTE] The problem Terran have is that they're not adapting to range 5 Queens, not that range 5 Queens are imbalanced. Hellions and Banshees haven't lost their harrassment capabilities, but their harrasment rolls have changed from suiciding into the natural and cloaking into the main base to Hellions containing the Zerg to 2 bases and Banshees harrassing the 3rd base while Terrans either A) establish their 3rd base and Zerg sacrifice their 3rd base or B) the Queens and Zerglings are forced to push thru' the Hellions in order to save their 3rd base and expose their natural and main to Hellion harrassment. A pattern occurs where the 4 Queen, and to a lesser extent 6 Queen, openings place their 3rd at 7 minutes without having Zergling speed upgrades or a Roach Warren and their susceptible to either the Hellion and Banshee opening denying their 3rd or a Reactor Hellion, Marauder and Combat Shield Marine timing push. The opening goal for Terran is to deny Zerg's 3rd and establish their own 3rd with Hellion Banshee and not to try and prevent Zerg's worker saturation of his natural and main bases. You can Command Center first vs Zerg every time, skip Cloak and build the 3rd Orbital Command Center as soon as you start building your first Banshee and take your 3rd as quickly as possible, or skip Cloak and take a Tech Lab on your Barracks for a Stim Pack upgrade and add Marauders into your attack on the 3rd and have a higher success rate. The Banshees only purpose is to either draw out the Queens or provide free DPS vs Zerglings and possibly Roaches, and they'll still build at least one Overseer because they can't afford not to if you do have Cloak. As far as the mid-game is concerned, it's a question of being able to 1) Engineering Bay and Missile Turrent your natural to prevent the ~10 minute Mutalisk counter attack 2) build a second Factory/Tech Lab, upgrade to Infernal Pre-Igniter to harass the mineral lines of the 3rd if it survived or was re-established, the 4th if it's establishes or Medivac drop the Zerg's main for mid-game harrassment and build Thors as a mobile Mutalisk response unit while surviving Banshees are used primarily for defense against counter attacks and 3) establish your 4th with a Planetary Fortress and 4) your end game is to build 2 additional Starports, 2 with Tech Labs and 1 with Reactor for Raven and Viking production and research Hunter Seeker Missile. You need to stop thinking in terms of Terran harrassment being restricted towards the natural and main bases of Zerg, Zerg being able to establish an economic advantage on 3 bases that's "unfair" compared to Terran's being able to establish an economic advantage on 3 bases that can't even be harrassed until Mutalisks and that Terran end game compositions are any worse than Zerg end game compositions. Believe me, I'm struggling vs Terran when I have to 1) attack into Hellion, Thor, Siege Tank lines with Ultralisk, Zergling, Infestor, 2) Zergling counter attacks have to attack into Planetary Fortresses at every mineral line 3) Broodlord, Corrupter, Infestor, Queen has to attack into Hellion, Thor, Viking and Raven's where a well placed Hunter Seeker Missiles make my army dissappear all while 4) dealing with constant Blue Flame Hellion harrassment and drops in undefended mineral lines. Just watch the IEM ZvT match ups and pay attentiont to their strategic and tactical adjustments vs Zerg, you don't have to play like MvP and SuperNova in order to realize that altho' playskill is subjectgive good decision making is not. Right now the entire ZvT match up revolves around Zerg struggling to establish their 3rd, Zerg needing to Mutalisk counter attack the Terran third and Terrans being able to just open up with Command Center first into early 3rd Command Center every game because no Zerg players are taking gas before 40 supply. Even if you aren't convinced the situation is problematic for Zerg at around the ~9 minute mark, I'm definitely not convinced that Broodlord, Corrupter, Infestor, Queen has an advantage over Hellion, Siege Tank, Thor, Viking, Raven when Hellion's can make mineral lines disappear in seconds, Hunter Seeker Missiles can make armies disappear in seconds while I have to attack into Planetary Fortresses with 3 Armor and Terrans haven't even bothered to experiment with Cloaked Ghosts EMPing Infestors, Nuke play or even Battle Cruisers and Yamato Cannons. The only reason the ZvT match up is aggrivating for you is because you can't harass the natural expansion and main base now like you could before, but it doesn't matter at all because the metagame has shifted towards openings being about harassing their 3rd and establishing your 3rd simultaneously and the metagame endings have shifted towards whether or not the Zerg Air death ball can deal with the Terran Mech death ball and primarily Hunter Seeker missile. Terran has pretty clear tactical and strategic objectives at this point, while Zerg has to reconsider whether or not it should be taking 6 Queens, 4 Vespene Geysers in order to support the 7:00 3rd, 5 Queens, 1 Roach Warren and 4 Vespene Geysers in order to suppor the 7:00 3rd base. 4 Queen, 2 Vespene Geysers and skipping a 3rd base for a Macro Hatch and "Mutalisk Expand," 1 Vespene Geyser at 18 supply for early Zergling Speed and Baneling Nests or 11 Spawning Pool, 18 Vespene Geyser to pressure Command Center first and early 3rd Command Centers builds with the possibility of 2 base Zergling, Baneling, Roach All Ins etc. and we have to question whether or not 11 minute Hives into Greater Spires is viable or whether or not we should still go for 11 minute Hives but skip the Spire at the Lair and go straight into Ultralisk, Zergling, Infestor play (god I can't wait for Vipers to add to this) Right now, nothing is absolutely clear for Zerg up until the 7:00 mark and the decision to take our 3rd, all Terrans have to do is apply pressure to our 3rd, expand behind it with their 3rd and prepare for ~10 Mutalisks while going into the Mech death ball with a Raven end game and rinse and repeat as long as 4 to 6 Queen openings aren't adjusting with earlier Pool and Gas timings, Roach Warrens or giving up on the 7:00 mark for expanding and taking an in base Macro Hatch and waiting to push out with Mutalisks vs a Hellion and Banshee force that can't shoot up. It's kind of exciting to be Zerg right now, because we honestly have to innovate now that Terran have pretty clear counters in place. And I don't think you have any place to talk shit on Vortix, everything seems so obvious to everyone when you're observing from both player view points. Sure, he made a couple of clear mistakes, but for being 19 and inexperienced in tournament settings he managed to take 3rd at the IEM ... what have you done lately? | ||
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
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blug
Australia623 Posts
People say that it's slow and unreliable but honestly it's a death warrant to broodlords =S | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On August 21 2012 18:31 blug wrote: I think ravens are already heaps powerful. I've never understood why people are so hesitant to use hunter seeker missile... People say that it's slow and unreliable but honestly it's a death warrant to broodlords =S It takes 2 hsm's to kill 1 broodlord. It takes 110 seconds to upgrade HSM. It takes ages to reach 125 energy. You need a decent amount of starports. The transition to ravens only works when the zerg makes a mistake. Imagine 10 splitted broodlords. It would require 20 ravens to kill them. | ||
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blug
Australia623 Posts
On August 21 2012 18:34 Snowbear wrote: It takes 2 hsm's to kill 1 broodlord. It takes 110 seconds to upgrade HSM. It takes ages to reach 125 energy. You need a decent amount of starports. The transition to ravens only works when the zerg makes a mistake. Imagine 10 splitted broodlords. It would require 20 ravens to kill them. That's the problem though, people think that broodlords are easy to split but that's not 100% true. Splitting broodlords for a stationary position is easy, but if you want to push forward with split broodlords (8-10 broodlords) you have to individually select each one and you need a rediculous amount of APM. So if a zerg is capable of splitting his broodlords, perhaps he deserves an advantage against HSM the same way terran have an advantage against banelings/infestors if they can split their units. This isn't to say that it's not possible to beat a split army, because you see MVP killing zergs all the time with standard terran play. And if you are going raven, I would assume you would pump the hell out of vikings. Thus, you would fire a seeker missile at the corrupters. Unless you have AI type micro, you simply aren't going to run away with the corrupter whose being chased by the seeker missile, you are gonna run away with all your corrupters while your vikings go mental on the broodlords. Also 2 Hunter Seeker Missiles to kill a broodlord? You are making it sound underpowered. It takes 2 fungals to kill terrans T1 unit and it takes 2 Hunter Seeker Missiles to Kill Zergs final tier unit.... hmmm.... I can make things sound OP to. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
Oh and Mooncricket, you need to fix your quotes. | ||
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blug
Australia623 Posts
On August 21 2012 18:46 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: Actually, it takes more than 2 HSMs to kill a Brood Lords as the maximum damage is 100 and they have 225 life. Mind you, it's not hard to have a few vikings' volleys hit, so it's not as if you need to hit all of the Brood Lords with 3 or even 2 and as said, sometimes the corruptors of infestors are better targets. Yeah sorry I didn't know that they took 3 HSMs, I just was going by what the other guy said xD. But still 3 is pretty good. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
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deathzz
669 Posts
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
 ) had better be better. If they cannot even turn into Brood Lords, there's be a strong case to buff them.*Cue terran panic QQ* Obviously if this were too strong you could look at balancing other issues. That is to say, if zerg were definitely too strong with that in play, it would probably be something about the infestors that should be changed, rather than corruptors. + Show Spoiler + While we're at it, nerf roaches & buff hydras! Ho hum! I can dream. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
At the end you want to get red of the anti air of the zerg and then snipe the broodlords for free, as long as you have pdds and seeker missiles ready. To bad the patch isn't that important anymore, as zergs have been struggling again after they started testing. Would have loved to see the changes, especially the creep one as it would affect low level more. | ||
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LuckyGnomTV
Russian Federation367 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On August 21 2012 18:48 blug wrote: Yeah sorry I didn't know that they took 3 HSMs, I just was going by what the other guy said xD. But still 3 is pretty good. How is 3 HSM good for killing 1 BL? lol, using twice or 3 times as much gas + time just to hopefully charge my raven in without getting fungaled and lose. Pretty sure he also has corruptors :/ | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On August 21 2012 19:11 SheaR619 wrote: How is 3 HSM good for killing 1 BL? lol, using twice or 3 times as much gas + time just to hopefully charge my raven in without getting fungaled and lose. Pretty sure he also has corruptors :/ show me a replay where the Z splits all his BLs in SINGLE BLs only. its humanly impossible to split ALL BLs into single ones, split ALL corruptors into single, fungal, inject and build units all at once. you will ALWAYS hit 2-5 units with a HSM and PDD + vikings + 2-3 thors RAPE corruptors. the problem isnt killing the Z super army. so the raven buff isnt needed. the problem for T is getting its own superarmy with ravens. but T will learn how the get there (the korean Ts already know how to). | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On August 21 2012 18:34 Snowbear wrote: It takes 2 hsm's to kill 1 broodlord. It takes 110 seconds to upgrade HSM. It takes ages to reach 125 energy. You need a decent amount of starports. The transition to ravens only works when the zerg makes a mistake. Imagine 10 splitted broodlords. It would require 20 ravens to kill them. You aren't supposed to kill Brood lords with HSM, but Corruptors and/or Infestors. Corruptors are usually clumped up, if the Zerg spreads them, he is reducing their dps quite a bit, because Corruptors aren't quite efficient for damaging air units that aren't massive, their true strength is that they have a lot of HP and armor. On the other hand, none of the Zerg players(even on top top levels) are spreading their Infestors either. So, HSM can really be deadly in those situations. Why would you want to kill Brood Lords with Ravens, when if you kill Infestors and/or Corruptors, your army do great job at destroying Brood Lords. Brood Lords are only strong at the combination with Infestors, alone they are quite terrible for their cost. the ravens are not there to only use seeker missile, they are supposed to spread out the corrupters, which weakens their damage output. (vikings can't do this because of fungal and have this damage disadvantage on the broodlords) Afterwards a few pdds, guarantee you air dominane. It means fight here and trade units vs energy, somethings zergs love to do as well. If the corrupters clump, well you can skip the pdd and simply seeker missile them. The reason why you cast seeker missile on a few broodlords that are still stacked is to reduce their broodling production and maybe get lucky and roast the ground army of the zerg, especially infestors, that have to be under the broods to fungal vikings. At the end you want to get red of the anti air of the zerg and then snipe the broodlords for free, as long as you have pdds and seeker missiles ready. To bad the patch isn't that important anymore, as zergs have been struggling again after they started testing. Would have loved to see the changes, especially the creep one as it would affect low level more. Exactly. But to be honest, we might even see the patch. The patch just forced Terran players to think differently and start using Ravens more, which they already did even if the patch didn't started, and it seems to work. Currently, the patch is on hold, so they might even end up implementing these changes or at least some of them. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 21 2012 19:21 Decendos wrote: show me a replay where the Z splits all his BLs in SINGLE BLs only. its humanly impossible to split ALL BLs into single ones, split ALL corruptors into single, fungal, inject and build units all at once. you will ALWAYS hit 2-5 units with a HSM and PDD + vikings + 2-3 thors RAPE corruptors. the problem isnt killing the Z super army. so the raven buff isnt needed. the problem for T is getting its own superarmy with ravens. but T will learn how the get there (the korean Ts already know how to). I'm not sure if it is humanly impossible, it's rather completly dumb, because then range 9 vikings and stimming in marines can pick off your army one by one, as the units don't cover each other anymore. But I'm not sure, if it is really possible no matter what to get that army in time on any map. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
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Solarist
291 Posts
On August 21 2012 19:33 Snowbear wrote: Newsflash guys: terrans should split their vikings and marines against fungal, BUT don't you dare to say that zergs should split their corruptors and broodlords against HSM!! That's NOT possible!!!!! Zergs should be able to 1a themselves to victory! Terrans should split for their life! Yeah its quite hilarious, i remember when someone suggested that you split your broods vs votex, zergs shat bricks that so much was required from them. Then when terran ask how do i avoid infestors killing my entire army, air units and all. The answer is usually OMG you just gotta split, cant be that hard | ||
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