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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 21 2012 19:33 Snowbear wrote:
Newsflash guys: terrans should split their vikings and marines against fungal, BUT don't you dare to say that zergs should split their corruptors and broodlords against HSM!! That's NOT possible!!!!! Zergs should be able to 1a themselves to victory! Terrans should split for their life!
My thoughts exactly.
I just can't help but find it anything but supremely ironic to see Zergs complain about splitting and calling it "humanly impossible". If that is so, and if splitting vikings is in many ways similar to splitting broodlords, then most Terrans have been doing the humanly impossible for a long time now.
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Blizzard is such a joke. It's really not fun when you play vs zerg's that allin you every game and then easily transition out of it because of larva.
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The Raven should actually be a unit that scares the opponent, just like the High Templar or Infestor. Raven is far away from being this kind of unit.
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Avilo droppin dat knowledge bomb.
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On August 23 2012 03:47 ( bush wrote:
The Raven should actually be a unit that scares the opponent, just like the High Templar or Infestor. Raven is far away from being this kind of unit.
especially considering how its harder to get to.
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On August 23 2012 03:54 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 03:47 ( bush wrote:
The Raven should actually be a unit that scares the opponent, just like the High Templar or Infestor. Raven is far away from being this kind of unit. especially considering how its harder to get to.
I can't think of many Zergs lategame that aren't shitting their pants when they see 6 ravens with full energy HSMing their army... Ravens are fine, get better.
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On August 23 2012 03:47 ( bush wrote:
The Raven should actually be a unit that scares the opponent, just like the High Templar or Infestor. Raven is far away from being this kind of unit.
Why should the Raven be like those units? The races are asymmetrical, and if Blizzard wanted the Raven to be as strong as the Infestor it would be way stronger than it is now.
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On August 22 2012 08:14 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 23:46 blug wrote:
I am almost willing to bet money that ravens will be the new hot topic of OPness after the patch. I don't believe it will be because of the speed increase that will make them OP, it will be the fact that terran will start using an ability that is already amazing but don't currently utilize.
The exact same thing happened with the Warp Prism Buff (I still argue that before the buff it was still useful as hell). Arguably the infestor buff/nerf (8 seconds worth of fungal would be just as good as 4 seconds imo even with the longer duration of damage being done).
Pretty much agree, same with Ghosts. Terran players were crying how Infestor is OP, and Zerg players were telling them to use Ghosts. Terran players usually said on that "Ghosts are shit", than few months later, you see masses of Ghost vs. Zerg, and they were countering every unit with Snipe and EMP. Then, after that, we saw Ghosts being nerfed...
This is false beyond belief. Ghosts are shit in that they are extremely cost inefficient and require massive infrastructure to support them, just as much as Ravens if not more. Ghosts require upgrades, cloak, nukes, PFs, Sentry Towers, well positioned tanks, and a split map situation for them to become actually good. There were only a few games where Ghosts were utilized well, one of them was Morrow vs Leenock on Metro, which special map for obvious reasons, and on Shakuras when Z players weren't being aggressive and just simply allowing Terran players to split the map.
Anyone that believes that Ghosts were OP pretty much didn't watch SC2 at all or have a blatantly biased stake in Z. The win percentages, the games themselves, etc. all prove that Ghosts were not OP by any stretch of the imagination; the only thing they allowed was for Terran to actually fight late game Z when they were on even bases, nothing more. If a Terran was behind on bases, he couldn't afford to mass Ghosts simply because it costs way too much to support them.
Various Z players for instance love to point out the games of MVP vs July and MVP vs Nestea as examples as to why Ghosts are imbalanced. Except they forget that not only MVP has historically dominated Nestea and July, both Nestea and July played those particular matches extremely bad. July and Nestea were simply playing subpar level of Z, while MVP was just outplaying them badly. Ghosts had little to no impact; MVP had cut the maps in half and forced both of them into very bad positions, even though both July and Nestea had ample amount of time to either hurt MVP badly with a 3 base attack, or at least force him to not expand and take 4ths and 5ths so quickly (which he did in both games). MVP basically played an ultra greedy Terran, and neither Nestea or July capitalized at all on the greedy play of MVP.
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On August 23 2012 04:24 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 03:57 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 23 2012 03:54 xPabt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:47 ( bush wrote:
The Raven should actually be a unit that scares the opponent, just like the High Templar or Infestor. Raven is far away from being this kind of unit. especially considering how its harder to get to. I can't think of many Zergs lategame that aren't shitting their pants when they see 6 ravens with full energy HSMing their army... Ravens are fine, get better. Maybe the reason they're shitting their pants is the very thought that they may actually have to micro a bit more. Can't have that. Oh, fun fact, if you let 6 slow-ass ravens hsm your entire army then that means you have shit vision for a zerg and even shittier infestor control, because otherwise you'd be able to simply freeze ravens out of range of hsm and pick them off.
agree here the effort for emp and hsm is greater then to fungual a enemy
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On August 23 2012 03:57 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 03:54 xPabt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:47 ( bush wrote:
The Raven should actually be a unit that scares the opponent, just like the High Templar or Infestor. Raven is far away from being this kind of unit. especially considering how its harder to get to. I can't think of many Zergs lategame that aren't shitting their pants when they see 6 ravens with full energy HSMing their army... Ravens are fine, get better.
I can think of many zergs that don't shit their pants because they are grown up. Good post, great logic. You are the man.
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On August 23 2012 04:03 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 03:47 ( bush wrote:
The Raven should actually be a unit that scares the opponent, just like the High Templar or Infestor. Raven is far away from being this kind of unit. Why should the Raven be like those units? The races are asymmetrical, and if Blizzard wanted the Raven to be as strong as the Infestor it would be way stronger than it is now.
Well when terran's early/midgame advantage has been nerfed out of the game then lategame needs a change.
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On August 23 2012 04:27 perser84 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 04:24 Scrubwave wrote:On August 23 2012 03:57 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 23 2012 03:54 xPabt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:47 ( bush wrote:
The Raven should actually be a unit that scares the opponent, just like the High Templar or Infestor. Raven is far away from being this kind of unit. especially considering how its harder to get to. I can't think of many Zergs lategame that aren't shitting their pants when they see 6 ravens with full energy HSMing their army... Ravens are fine, get better. Maybe the reason they're shitting their pants is the very thought that they may actually have to micro a bit more. Can't have that. Oh, fun fact, if you let 6 slow-ass ravens hsm your entire army then that means you have shit vision for a zerg and even shittier infestor control, because otherwise you'd be able to simply freeze ravens out of range of hsm and pick them off. agree here the effort for emp and hsm is greater then to fungual a enemy
I think the rank of the player should be bolstered above their posts to see the validity of their comments, it really bugs me that you "agree" with that ridiculous statement.
In pro play Ravens seem to have no issue landing big HSM's on mass Corruptor/Broodlord/infestor army (even without any ghost help to EMP infestors) so why do you think that below that level the Zerg simply has the ability with that "fun fact"
I expected Zerg to bitch about balance when the game was actually broken, I expected Protoss to complain about the 1/1/1 and bitbybit builds when the game was broken but I didn't expect Terrans to bitch about a game that sees Terran swallow most of the prize money/premier leagues even after the patch. The game is fine, you need to again "get better" and stop blaming Blizzard for anything.
Was TvZ lategame fine prepatch? It seemed to be, no one was going up in flames so how in the hell does the queen buff or overlord movement speed change lategame compositions? If it does anything it only elevates the speed at which Zerg gets to the lategame by a near miniscule amount, not some magical god send that gives Zerg the 1A power to crush everyone.
Frustrating
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On August 23 2012 04:52 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Was TvZ lategame fine prepatch? It seemed to be, no one was going up in flames so how in the hell does the queen buff or overlord movement speed change lategame compositions? If it does anything it only elevates the speed at which Zerg gets to the lategame by a near miniscule amount, not some magical god send that gives Zerg the 1A power to crush everyone.
I agree that some of the people posting here are overreacting, but I recall plenty of people having the opinion that Terran was week in the lategame vs Zerg even before the Queen buff.
So no, I don't think people thought the lategame was fine prepatch, if that's what you're asking.
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I cant remember which progamer it was - maybe mvp maybe byun - but like a month ago they claimed that tvz was fine and the late game solution was found; ravens. Stats bear this out. TVZ is balanced yet again in Korea, and is trending that way internationally. Pretty amusing thread.
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On August 23 2012 04:52 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 04:27 perser84 wrote:On August 23 2012 04:24 Scrubwave wrote:On August 23 2012 03:57 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 23 2012 03:54 xPabt wrote:On August 23 2012 03:47 ( bush wrote:
The Raven should actually be a unit that scares the opponent, just like the High Templar or Infestor. Raven is far away from being this kind of unit. especially considering how its harder to get to. I can't think of many Zergs lategame that aren't shitting their pants when they see 6 ravens with full energy HSMing their army... Ravens are fine, get better. Maybe the reason they're shitting their pants is the very thought that they may actually have to micro a bit more. Can't have that. Oh, fun fact, if you let 6 slow-ass ravens hsm your entire army then that means you have shit vision for a zerg and even shittier infestor control, because otherwise you'd be able to simply freeze ravens out of range of hsm and pick them off. agree here the effort for emp and hsm is greater then to fungual a enemy I think the rank of the player should be bolstered above their posts to see the validity of their comments, it really bugs me that you "agree" with that ridiculous statement. In pro play Ravens seem to have no issue landing big HSM's on mass Corruptor/Broodlord/infestor army (even without any ghost help to EMP infestors) so why do you think that below that level the Zerg simply has the ability with that "fun fact" I expected Zerg to bitch about balance when the game was actually broken, I expected Protoss to complain about the 1/1/1 and bitbybit builds when the game was broken but I didn't expect Terrans to bitch about a game that sees Terran swallow most of the prize money/premier leagues even after the patch. The game is fine, you need to again "get better" and stop blaming Blizzard for anything. Was TvZ lategame fine prepatch? It seemed to be, no one was going up in flames so how in the hell does the queen buff or overlord movement speed change lategame compositions? If it does anything it only elevates the speed at which Zerg gets to the lategame by a near miniscule amount, not some magical god send that gives Zerg the 1A power to crush everyone. Frustrating
News flash, the Z players are losing to Ravens because they are unfamiliar against playing them. It's just like how Z players were crying about Mothership play late game vs P when in all reality, there was nothing wrong at all. Just stay behind your huge ass spawn crawler wall and spread your units out. Except for some reason, Z players can't be bothered to split in multiple match-ups for some reason.
Not to mention, we saw top tier Terrans beat lower tier Zerg players at IEM for the most part with Ravens (except Kas vs Nestea, but Kas really shouldn't have won that game at all; Nestea had it in the bag and just reacted poorly to Ravens). When I start seeing Ravens beating top tier Z's like DRG (and not Nestea who has a notoriously poor record against Terran and has not been playing that well lately anyways), then we can talk that the Raven MIGHT have some viability.
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On August 23 2012 05:07 whatevername wrote:
I cant remember which progamer it was - maybe mvp maybe byun - but like a month ago they claimed that tvz was fine and the late game solution was found; ravens. Stats bear this out. TVZ is balanced yet again in Korea, and is trending that way internationally. Pretty amusing thread.
If by "trending that way" you mean getting worse for 3rd straight month you are right.
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On August 23 2012 05:07 whatevername wrote:
I cant remember which progamer it was - maybe mvp maybe byun - but like a month ago they claimed that tvz was fine and the late game solution was found; ravens. Stats bear this out. TVZ is balanced yet again in Korea, and is trending that way internationally. Pretty amusing thread.
So apparently one month of data overrides 4 months of imbalance (and continual imbalance in international play).
Two players don't determine everything. You had players like Daigo who could utilize Ryu in ST and beat everybody with him; that doesn't make Ryu a better character or a top tier pick over characters like O.Sagat, Vega, Dhalsim, or Boxer. Just because a very, very, very, very few select players in a competitive game can make something work doesn't mean an imbalance doesn't exist.
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On August 23 2012 05:21 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 05:07 whatevername wrote:
I cant remember which progamer it was - maybe mvp maybe byun - but like a month ago they claimed that tvz was fine and the late game solution was found; ravens. Stats bear this out. TVZ is balanced yet again in Korea, and is trending that way internationally. Pretty amusing thread. If by "trending that way" you mean getting worse for 3rd straight month you are right.
4 straight championships... Terran looking pretty bad.
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EPT
