|
If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 21 2012 20:03 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:00 Snowbear wrote:On August 21 2012 19:55 Big J wrote:On August 21 2012 19:49 Solarist wrote:On August 21 2012 19:33 Snowbear wrote:
Newsflash guys: terrans should split their vikings and marines against fungal, BUT don't you dare to say that zergs should split their corruptors and broodlords against HSM!! That's NOT possible!!!!! Zergs should be able to 1a themselves to victory! Terrans should split for their life! Yeah its quite hilarious, i remember when someone suggested that you split your broods vs votex, zergs shat bricks that so much was required from them. Then when terran ask how do i avoid infestors killing my entire army, air units and all. The answer is usually OMG you just gotta split, cant be that hard where did anybody write splitting BLs is not required against HSM? Read the comments on the previous page. "It's humanly impossible to split broodlords" you sir are failing to quote. i said its humanly impossible to split all BLs so that every BL is by its own AND splitting every corruptor so its alone AND inject AND fungal AND build units. THATS what i said. no one said its impossible to split BLs so stop talking BS.
It is also humanly impossible to split everymarine vs banes or whatever, but ppl do it anyway and its super cost effective. IF zergs PRE split the the broodlords vs vortex or HSM, ravens are NOT cost effective.
|
On August 23 2012 05:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 05:21 keglu wrote:On August 23 2012 05:07 whatevername wrote:
I cant remember which progamer it was - maybe mvp maybe byun - but like a month ago they claimed that tvz was fine and the late game solution was found; ravens. Stats bear this out. TVZ is balanced yet again in Korea, and is trending that way internationally. Pretty amusing thread. If by "trending that way" you mean getting worse for 3rd straight month you are right. 4 straight championships... Terran looking pretty bad.
Because Taeja and MVP are clearly a great sample size.
If we really want to use tournaments, why don't you see how many semi-final finishes Terran has versus how many Protoss and Zerg has at every major Korean/Intentional tournament? You will find that both P and Z has various different type of players making deep runs, while Terran is only represented by something like two players. It's a clear shift from the past when Terran players made a vast majority of the quarter finalists or better in alot of tournaments. It's kind of like how only Nestea was basically the only banner carrier for Z back in the day. Clearly Nestea was demonstrating Z could be played at the highest level right? He won a GSL! How come Z still needed buffs then?
On August 23 2012 05:24 Tsuki.eu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:03 Decendos wrote:On August 21 2012 20:00 Snowbear wrote:On August 21 2012 19:55 Big J wrote:On August 21 2012 19:49 Solarist wrote:On August 21 2012 19:33 Snowbear wrote:
Newsflash guys: terrans should split their vikings and marines against fungal, BUT don't you dare to say that zergs should split their corruptors and broodlords against HSM!! That's NOT possible!!!!! Zergs should be able to 1a themselves to victory! Terrans should split for their life! Yeah its quite hilarious, i remember when someone suggested that you split your broods vs votex, zergs shat bricks that so much was required from them. Then when terran ask how do i avoid infestors killing my entire army, air units and all. The answer is usually OMG you just gotta split, cant be that hard where did anybody write splitting BLs is not required against HSM? Read the comments on the previous page. "It's humanly impossible to split broodlords" you sir are failing to quote. i said its humanly impossible to split all BLs so that every BL is by its own AND splitting every corruptor so its alone AND inject AND fungal AND build units. THATS what i said. no one said its impossible to split BLs so stop talking BS. It is also humanly impossible to split everymarine vs banes or whatever, but ppl do it anyway and its super cost effective. IF zergs PRE split the the broodlords vs vortex or HSM, ravens are NOT cost effective.
Alot of Z's pre-split along their Spine Crawler wall vs Vortex late game anyways; anyone who is complaining about it against Seeker Missile is really just being dumb.
|
On August 23 2012 05:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 05:21 keglu wrote:On August 23 2012 05:07 whatevername wrote:
I cant remember which progamer it was - maybe mvp maybe byun - but like a month ago they claimed that tvz was fine and the late game solution was found; ravens. Stats bear this out. TVZ is balanced yet again in Korea, and is trending that way internationally. Pretty amusing thread. If by "trending that way" you mean getting worse for 3rd straight month you are right. 4 straight championships... Terran looking pretty bad.
Dont know about what championschip you are talking about, but international winrates getting worse for 3rd straight month, thats was my point.
|
well it's okay that it doesn't address TvZ issues because it isn't going to be implemented. ROFLOL.
|
On August 23 2012 05:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 05:21 keglu wrote:On August 23 2012 05:07 whatevername wrote:
I cant remember which progamer it was - maybe mvp maybe byun - but like a month ago they claimed that tvz was fine and the late game solution was found; ravens. Stats bear this out. TVZ is balanced yet again in Korea, and is trending that way internationally. Pretty amusing thread. If by "trending that way" you mean getting worse for 3rd straight month you are right. 4 straight championships... Terran looking pretty bad.
Hold on now buddy....... you realize that Nestea won a GSL without losing a single map right? Do you realize how hard it is to win a GSL without losing a single map? Really freaking hard... and guess what... zerg got giant buffs then.
|
|
|
On August 23 2012 05:38 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 05:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 23 2012 05:21 keglu wrote:On August 23 2012 05:07 whatevername wrote:
I cant remember which progamer it was - maybe mvp maybe byun - but like a month ago they claimed that tvz was fine and the late game solution was found; ravens. Stats bear this out. TVZ is balanced yet again in Korea, and is trending that way internationally. Pretty amusing thread. If by "trending that way" you mean getting worse for 3rd straight month you are right. 4 straight championships... Terran looking pretty bad. Yeah, apparently all terrans have to do is to play like Taeja and MVP to beat zergs. Why didn't anyone think about it before. Oh, and it also helps if your opponents, like Nestea, play like dogshit in those tournaments, eh?
I am a high master Z player and I am wondering is the problem with ravens getting to them or the unit itself?
Also I can't find the interview/article or something but I am pretty sure qxc said that having a raven cloud makes Terran OP.
|
On August 23 2012 05:43 ShakAttaK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 05:38 Scrubwave wrote:On August 23 2012 05:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 23 2012 05:21 keglu wrote:On August 23 2012 05:07 whatevername wrote:
I cant remember which progamer it was - maybe mvp maybe byun - but like a month ago they claimed that tvz was fine and the late game solution was found; ravens. Stats bear this out. TVZ is balanced yet again in Korea, and is trending that way internationally. Pretty amusing thread. If by "trending that way" you mean getting worse for 3rd straight month you are right. 4 straight championships... Terran looking pretty bad. Yeah, apparently all terrans have to do is to play like Taeja and MVP to beat zergs. Why didn't anyone think about it before. Oh, and it also helps if your opponents, like Nestea, play like dogshit in those tournaments, eh? I am a high master Z player and I am wondering is the problem with ravens getting to them or the unit itself? Also I can't find the interview/article or something but I am pretty sure qxc said that having a raven cloud makes Terran OP.
1) Getting to the unit with the proper support structure to make sure you don't get killed by a tech switch is virtually impossible against any decent Z. You should know this. A T that just sits back is going to get clowned.
2) The unit itself is extremely gimmicky, and is very hit or miss, even more so than the Mothership in PvZ late game. The amount of risk you're taking with it is extremely high.
|
On August 23 2012 03:10 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 19:33 Snowbear wrote:
Newsflash guys: terrans should split their vikings and marines against fungal, BUT don't you dare to say that zergs should split their corruptors and broodlords against HSM!! That's NOT possible!!!!! Zergs should be able to 1a themselves to victory! Terrans should split for their life! My thoughts exactly. I just can't help but find it anything but supremely ironic to see Zergs complain about splitting and calling it "humanly impossible". If that is so, and if splitting vikings is in many ways similar to splitting broodlords, then most Terrans have been doing the humanly impossible for a long time now.
Apparently when MVP was in his prime he said Terran was the weakest. So basically yeah, you have been :D
|
On August 23 2012 05:37 Secret05 wrote:
4 straight championships... Terran looking pretty bad.
Hold on now buddy....... you realize that Nestea won a GSL without losing a single map right? Do you realize how hard it is to win a GSL without losing a single map? Really freaking hard... and guess what... zerg got giant buffs then.[/QUOTE]
It's really hilarious that people keep saying look at taeja/mvp and the terrans reply with look at nestea/fruitdealer and then their is never a response.
|
On August 23 2012 05:45 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 05:43 ShakAttaK wrote:On August 23 2012 05:38 Scrubwave wrote:On August 23 2012 05:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 23 2012 05:21 keglu wrote:On August 23 2012 05:07 whatevername wrote:
I cant remember which progamer it was - maybe mvp maybe byun - but like a month ago they claimed that tvz was fine and the late game solution was found; ravens. Stats bear this out. TVZ is balanced yet again in Korea, and is trending that way internationally. Pretty amusing thread. If by "trending that way" you mean getting worse for 3rd straight month you are right. 4 straight championships... Terran looking pretty bad. Yeah, apparently all terrans have to do is to play like Taeja and MVP to beat zergs. Why didn't anyone think about it before. Oh, and it also helps if your opponents, like Nestea, play like dogshit in those tournaments, eh? I am a high master Z player and I am wondering is the problem with ravens getting to them or the unit itself? Also I can't find the interview/article or something but I am pretty sure qxc said that having a raven cloud makes Terran OP. 1) Getting to the unit with the proper support structure to make sure you don't get killed by a tech switch is virtually impossible against any decent Z. You should know this. A T that just sits back is going to get clowned. 2) The unit itself is extremely gimmicky, and is very hit or miss, even more so than the Mothership in PvZ late game. The amount of risk you're taking with it is extremely high.
That is true but on ladder I recently ran into a bio hellion into ravens which I lost to, It was pretty rough since the only range unit that zerg can use on a cloud of ravens that doesn't involve missile attacks is the Infested terran.
|
On August 23 2012 05:43 ShakAttaK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 05:38 Scrubwave wrote:On August 23 2012 05:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On August 23 2012 05:21 keglu wrote:On August 23 2012 05:07 whatevername wrote:
I cant remember which progamer it was - maybe mvp maybe byun - but like a month ago they claimed that tvz was fine and the late game solution was found; ravens. Stats bear this out. TVZ is balanced yet again in Korea, and is trending that way internationally. Pretty amusing thread. If by "trending that way" you mean getting worse for 3rd straight month you are right. 4 straight championships... Terran looking pretty bad. Yeah, apparently all terrans have to do is to play like Taeja and MVP to beat zergs. Why didn't anyone think about it before. Oh, and it also helps if your opponents, like Nestea, play like dogshit in those tournaments, eh? I am a high master Z player and I am wondering is the problem with ravens getting to them or the unit itself? Also I can't find the interview/article or something but I am pretty sure qxc said that having a raven cloud makes Terran OP.
It's both. Ravens cost 200 gas making them too expensive for the midgame. Once you get them out you have to research HSM and then wait for them to build up enough energy for HSM. Once you try to use them vs lategame Z army, a decent zerg will fungal them before you can get HSM off. Ravens are just a crappy unit and they need a buff to be viable.
|
did the smaller broodwar community during the prime of broodwar complain about balance like this?
|
Generally I think avilo's posts are pretty mindless and stupid, but I actually agree with him. It doesn't matter how fast you make the Raven because at the end of the day, Hunter Seeker Missile is just too much of an investment for something that is not even good against all Zerg late game (Ultras, that is) and can be shut down fairly easily with just fungal growth. Terran still does not have a solid answer to Infestors or the Hive tech switches. I feel like this is one of these buffs that Blizzard is introducing not because it will have a huge outcome on the game, but rather they are just trying to draw attention to the unit (like when they reduced the costs of Protoss upgrades; the upgrade cost did not need to be changed, it was just that dumb Protoss players were never upgrading and dying because of it, so Blizzard reduced the cost slightly in such a way that they can say to those players "Hey look, upgrades are good" without actually making them noticeably better. Now double forge and getting quick upgrades is a staple of Protoss play).
The difference between that buff to Protoss upgrades and the Raven is that Protoss upgrades were good before the patch. Ravens are OK right now. I think we'll have to see, but if late game TvZ becomes intense micro battles of Mass Terran air vs Brood/Infestor balls I would really enjoy watching and playing it. The real problem right now is that Terran air has to micro a lot more against Fungal Growth than Zerg has to micro against Terran air, but making Hunter Seeker Missile better/easier to get seems to be the answer (either that or buffing Thor GtA vs Armored damage).
|
On August 23 2012 05:53 Slipspace wrote:
did the smaller broodwar community during the prime of broodwar complain about balance like this?
No, and especially not like on B.net. And that's considering that Blizzard quit balancing the game in 2001. On top of that, Blizzard just made a whole ton of changes each patch rather than incremental ones like in SC2.
Also, what do you mean by smaller BW community? Do you mean BW fandom worldwide? BW was one of the most popular sports in South Korea alone, such that the prime of BW was many more times popular than SC2 ever has been. :S However, I can't speak on balance whining in Korea, since my experience with the BW community is from stalking TL and the blizz forums, and being on a couple smaller forums.
|
Blizzard balance the players, not the game..... is very sad....
|
On August 23 2012 06:11 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 05:53 Slipspace wrote:
did the smaller broodwar community during the prime of broodwar complain about balance like this? No, and especially not like on B.net. And that's considering that Blizzard quit balancing the game in 2001. On top of that, Blizzard just made a whole ton of changes each patch rather than incremental ones like in SC2. Also, what do you mean by smaller BW community? Do you mean BW fandom worldwide? BW was one of the most popular sports in South Korea alone, such that the prime of BW was many more times popular than SC2 ever has been. :S However, I can't speak on balance whining in Korea, since my experience with the BW community is from stalking TL and the blizz forums, and being on a couple smaller forums.
As far as around the world there was a lot less money and attention to Brood War than there is for StarCraft 2. In Korea obviously BW was way bigger than SC2 is right now, but on a global scale SC2 has BW beat.
|
On August 23 2012 06:14 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 06:11 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On August 23 2012 05:53 Slipspace wrote:
did the smaller broodwar community during the prime of broodwar complain about balance like this? No, and especially not like on B.net. And that's considering that Blizzard quit balancing the game in 2001. On top of that, Blizzard just made a whole ton of changes each patch rather than incremental ones like in SC2. Also, what do you mean by smaller BW community? Do you mean BW fandom worldwide? BW was one of the most popular sports in South Korea alone, such that the prime of BW was many more times popular than SC2 ever has been. :S However, I can't speak on balance whining in Korea, since my experience with the BW community is from stalking TL and the blizz forums, and being on a couple smaller forums. As far as around the world there was a lot less money and attention to Brood War than there is for StarCraft 2. In Korea obviously BW was way bigger than SC2 is right now, but on a global scale SC2 has BW beat.
It's really hard to say, simply because of how colossal BW was in Korea. Something on the scale of baseball or football in the US in a single country alone will typically trump a far more casual (and already declining, in part thanks to MOBAs and their ease of play) worldwide following.
Until SC2 gains in popularity in Korea to reach anywhere near BW status (and hopefully it does considering BW was formally killed in Korea a few weeks ago), I'm going to have to put my money on BW.
|
1500 Masters T on NA, TvZ feels okay right now, I think maps matter more than anything at this point in time.
|
On August 23 2012 04:39 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 04:03 ZAiNs wrote:On August 23 2012 03:47 ( bush wrote:
The Raven should actually be a unit that scares the opponent, just like the High Templar or Infestor. Raven is far away from being this kind of unit. Why should the Raven be like those units? The races are asymmetrical, and if Blizzard wanted the Raven to be as strong as the Infestor it would be way stronger than it is now. Well when terran's early/midgame advantage has been nerfed out of the game then lategame needs a change.
That's not even a remotely clear observation, Zerg have serious problems vs Terrans at the 9:00 minute mark vs either a Hellion, Marauder and Combat Shield Marine timing push or Hellion, Banshee and harrassing your third while he takes his third behind the harrassment.
I'm less concerned against Terrans going double Command Center just because I think Zerg will at some point re-evaluate their Spawning Pool and Gas timings and not just take 4 to 6 Queens and only have to make their first real decision at the 7:00 minute mark between a 3rd base or a macro hatch. I mean God forbid we Overpool and take Gas on 18 supply instead of 15 Hatch, 16 Pool, 4 Queens and 2 Gas at 40 supply to have strategic and tactical deviations to our build order between 2 to 5 Queens, Speedling expand or a Baneling Bust just because we're trying to saturate 2 bases at nose bleed speeds while conceding Terrans an unapposed 3rd base ...
As far as Fungal Growth is concernerd, if trading a root debuff for a damage buff is overpowered, then perhaps trading a root debuff for a Neural Parasite buff is another option? I've been considering what it'd take to make Neural Parasite viable again vs Protoss and Terran after the range nerf, and I think allowing Infestors to cast Neural Parasite while burrowed may make it more of an effective micro ability. Right now it's only really used as an answer to Mother Ships and Archons, so something needs to be done to get it back into the game vs Terran and Protoss as something more than a "lucky pull" vs Mother Ships and Ravens, an answer to Archons and a dubious choice vs Thors. It needs to be made useful vs Colossus with their range buff and Siege Tanks, and maybe sneaking around the map and Neural Parasiting them to force Scans would work ok.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
