EPT[D] The raven buff does not address TvZ issues - Page 41
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 23 2012 14:50 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Probably because most of the comments are to grossly over exaggerated to take seriously. Because all Z players ever say is "you're bad get better" or "the game is fine" ? Lol. They aren't even open to the idea that just possibly that taking a free third uncontested while droning straight to 70+ workers isn't entertaining, nor is it balanced at all. And no, I'm not exaggerating at all. A Z takes his 3rd almost uncontested really, and can drone extremely quickly to 70 drones without much threat of getting killed by a Terran player unless he royally fucks up his build somehow either through just not droning on a certain round of larvae, overreacting badly, or just plain out getting out controlled when facing Helion/Banshee. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 23 2012 14:52 nkr wrote: 1320 NA Master, 19 years old and 178 centimeters tall, and I agree 1600 NA Master, Random, 22 years old, 5'10'', Bachelors in Business Economics with a Minor in Accounting, 8:00-4:30 day job, and Ravens work well. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
It is equally bad if you have terran as a dominating race or if you have zerg. Some people see no problem in zerg being the strongest now just because terran had their strong period before. Other don't even think there are balance issues. The problem lies in the fact that terran was the strongest race at the release of the game so people, immaturely, developed a dislike toward terran and have a revenge-like mentality. People also forget statistics, actual numbers, and remember how terran was "ridiculously op", "unbeatable" in 2011 and forget that statistics weren't actually that bad. In fact, strongest terran month vs. zerg in 2011 is very similar to how zerg looks now against terran in July 2012. The other problem is that most influential people in sc2 community are zerg or protoss players, with the exception of some randoms. There really isn't a strong and influential terran voice in the community. If you speak about balance from terran perspective, even if you try your best to provide good arguments, it is often labeled as QQ. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On August 23 2012 15:13 superstartran wrote: Because all Z players ever say is "you're bad get better" or "the game is fine" ? Lol. They aren't even open to the idea that just possibly that taking a free third uncontested while droning straight to 70+ workers isn't entertaining, nor is it balanced at all. And no, I'm not exaggerating at all. A Z takes his 3rd almost uncontested really, and can drone extremely quickly to 70 drones without much threat of getting killed by a Terran player unless he royally fucks up his build somehow either through just not droning on a certain round of larvae, overreacting badly, or just plain out getting out controlled when facing Helion/Banshee. Because there's nothing much that the Zerg can do in the way of aggression? There's not too many timings that zerg can exploit. They're not a very aggressive race, and unfortunately, that's by design. The more and more I've been playing, the more I've come to realize and understand why Zerg is forced to drone to 4 base/5base gas and get infestor broodlord or infestor ultra. It's because the race is unable to be aggressive without being allin. There are no attacks you can perform. It's a shame. This is due to a lot of things - the way armies work, the fact that you cannot split up forces, meaning that the terran army is always going to be close to home, preventing drops or backstabs. I'm sure they can be done, and well, but will they ever become a staple of play with the current game? I don't think so. Don't even talk about ZvP, lol. You have to go infestor broodlord. I am open to the idea that a lack of aggression in the early game due to queens, and consequentially the early third droned to high heaven, isn't very entertaining. Personally, I hate infestor broodlord. I think that it is boring. I would love to play a very counterattack, backstab, drop heavy style. But you really can't. Not the way the current game plays. You have to work for that lategame army. Yes, the queen change allows Zerg players to reach that deathball even faster. But it really all stems from bad design. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
Bomber vs. Moonglade game 1 comes to mind. Bomber fast expanded, made an early 3rd orbital. Moonglade went for an early third and then did a big ling bane push which actually killed Bomber immediately. If both players fast expand, zerg can put pressure faster. | ||
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dreamseller
Australia914 Posts
On August 23 2012 14:55 mierin wrote: You all have forgotten Jaedong, who will encounter whatever and determine practice is what is needed to overcome in jaedong we trust | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On August 23 2012 19:04 Qwyn wrote: Because there's nothing much that the Zerg can do in the way of aggression? There's not too many timings that zerg can exploit. They're not a very aggressive race, and unfortunately, that's by design. The more and more I've been playing, the more I've come to realize and understand why Zerg is forced to drone to 4 base/5base gas and get infestor broodlord or infestor ultra. It's because the race is unable to be aggressive without being allin. There are no attacks you can perform. It's a shame. This is due to a lot of things - the way armies work, the fact that you cannot split up forces, meaning that the terran army is always going to be close to home, preventing drops or backstabs. I'm sure they can be done, and well, but will they ever become a staple of play with the current game? I don't think so. Don't even talk about ZvP, lol. You have to go infestor broodlord. I am open to the idea that a lack of aggression in the early game due to queens, and consequentially the early third droned to high heaven, isn't very entertaining. Personally, I hate infestor broodlord. I think that it is boring. I would love to play a very counterattack, backstab, drop heavy style. But you really can't. Not the way the current game plays. You have to work for that lategame army. Yes, the queen change allows Zerg players to reach that deathball even faster. But it really all stems from bad design. Honestly, in ZvT early game Zerg aggression with either bling/ling, roach/ling or roach/bling/ling works very well in at least trading SCVs for units. It's really not that hard and while it is less economical than greedy droning, it is in no way all-in even if it doesn't cripple. It's as much an investment as hellion/banshee and it works more often from what I see. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On August 23 2012 19:04 Qwyn wrote: Because there's nothing much that the Zerg can do in the way of aggression? There's not too many timings that zerg can exploit. They're not a very aggressive race, and unfortunately, that's by design. The more and more I've been playing, the more I've come to realize and understand why Zerg is forced to drone to 4 base/5base gas and get infestor broodlord or infestor ultra. It's because the race is unable to be aggressive without being allin. There are no attacks you can perform. It's a shame. This is due to a lot of things - the way armies work, the fact that you cannot split up forces, meaning that the terran army is always going to be close to home, preventing drops or backstabs. I'm sure they can be done, and well, but will they ever become a staple of play with the current game? I don't think so. Don't even talk about ZvP, lol. You have to go infestor broodlord. I am open to the idea that a lack of aggression in the early game due to queens, and consequentially the early third droned to high heaven, isn't very entertaining. Personally, I hate infestor broodlord. I think that it is boring. I would love to play a very counterattack, backstab, drop heavy style. But you really can't. Not the way the current game plays. You have to work for that lategame army. Yes, the queen change allows Zerg players to reach that deathball even faster. But it really all stems from bad design. There wasn't much of a problem with the balance before, though. And early Z vs. Reactor Hellion was at least entertaining - not necessarily from a build perspective, but neither was forced to commit to anything heavily - some Hellions and Roaches were cheap, and the Spine-Queen-Hellion dances and trying to sneak creep tumors past the Hellions were pretty damn entertaining if you ask me. (Plus if you Roached the Hellions, T would necessarily be on the backfoot - Reactor Hellion establishes tech and economy, but basically no army.) Plus after the early game due diligence was done on both sides the game went on to a rather long and entertaining midgame because Z's economy wasn't in as brilliant of a shape so they had to make units and T had to likewise establish an army (perhaps also slowed by muta harass). All in all, much better than what we have now, more balanced too, even if the winrates aren't atrociously imbalanced anymore. There was a problem with two Factory mass Hellion being hard to distinguish from standard light Hellion pressure, but Overlord speed should've been enough for that surely? Speaking of drops, the main change I would've done to pre-patch Zerg was to speed up drop research so Zerg had stuff to do faster after getting Lair. Lair itself seemed more of a speedbump than an enabler of anything exciting, Burrow timings perhaps excepted. This way, Zerg might've gained some Terran-style builds where they tech quickly to drops, and I don't think I've ever seen people say drops are boring. (And give Hydras a speed upgrade, even a small one) | ||
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Kleen-X
Denmark48 Posts
On August 23 2012 08:50 Sevenofnines wrote: SC2 TvZ: A Brief History -Zergs can't beat mech. Tank damage nerfed. -Zergs can't beat mass Reapers. Reapers nerfed. -Zergs can't handle 2 rax pressure. Raxes now require depot and build time increased. -Zergs can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. Bunkers nerfed. -Zergs still can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. All map sizes increased, close spawns removed from tourneys. -Zergs can't take third base easily. All maps now have very easy thirds. -Zergs can't handle Cloak Banshees. Spore Crawler burrow time reduced. -Zergs can't handle Blue Flame Hellions. Blue Flame nerfed. -Zergs still can't handle Blue Flame Hellions/Other early pressure. Queens buffed. -Zergs can't handle Ghosts sniping everything down. Snipe nerfed. -Zergs can't take fourth base easily. All maps now have relatively easier fourths. Essentially, Zerg whining has changed almost everything in the matchup in their favor and they are still finding ways to lose. It isn't too hard to guess the next line there: -Zergs can't handle Ravens/HSM. *Insert nerf here* It's pretty telling that we have seen widespread usage of virtually every single Terran unit in a variety of different strategies in this matchup at the top level. I believe the only unit that hasn't seen really widespread usage is the Battlecruiser, although even that is becoming more common in the super super late game. Terrans have tried to take all of these nerfs in stride by migrating to different units and strategies (or by simply executing the old ones better), most of which get subsequently nerfed. We've come to the point where there aren't many remaining options for Terrans to even try. It's no wonder that the matchup has gotten stale. Part of the blame can rightly be laid on Blizzard. They threw in balance changes a bit too quickly without letting Zergs try and innovate and get over any perceived imbalances. They made certain units way too powerful relative to others in the race (Infestor) and other units way too crappy (Hydras). However, the other part of the blame also rightly belongs to the Zerg players that were trying harder to get all of Terrans strategies nerfed instead of asking for more options for their own race, particularly in regards to the early game. It is worth noting that most of the nerfs on that list up there pertain to the early game. Hence, if Zerg early game had simply been buffed so that they could put out aggression (without it being all-in), most of those nerfs probably would not have even been needed. Ultimately, it is the lack of available strategies for both sides that needs fixing. The Raven changes might help slightly in making them more viable, but at this point IMO the damage is already done. Zerg has no early game options and not much late game option either. Terran early game options were all nerfed into oblivion. Thus even if Ravens become the go-to choice it still means that the matchup has defaulted into a bunch of false choices. Suffice to say, it is a good thing that HOTS beta is coming soon. The matchup sorely needs a reboot. That post is really scary. That is exactly what it has been like. I loved the reaper and hellions until they got nerfed because you could get an early lead with really good micro. And Ghost vs. lategame zerg was some of the most interesting lategame play i have seen. Though I am not sure how much the reboot will help on the matchup after looking at it, because what you describe is an early into midgame issue, where the changes from zergs side mainly are midgame into lategame changes. | ||
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sage_francis
France1823 Posts
On August 23 2012 08:50 Sevenofnines wrote: SC2 TvZ: A Brief History -Zergs can't beat mech. Tank damage nerfed. -Zergs can't beat mass Reapers. Reapers nerfed. -Zergs can't handle 2 rax pressure. Raxes now require depot and build time increased. -Zergs can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. Bunkers nerfed. -Zergs still can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. All map sizes increased, close spawns removed from tourneys. -Zergs can't take third base easily. All maps now have very easy thirds. -Zergs can't handle Cloak Banshees. Spore Crawler burrow time reduced. -Zergs can't handle Blue Flame Hellions. Blue Flame nerfed. -Zergs still can't handle Blue Flame Hellions/Other early pressure. Queens buffed. -Zergs can't handle Ghosts sniping everything down. Snipe nerfed. -Zergs can't take fourth base easily. All maps now have relatively easier fourths. Essentially, Zerg whining has changed almost everything in the matchup in their favor and they are still finding ways to lose. It isn't too hard to guess the next line there: -Zergs can't handle Ravens/HSM. *Insert nerf here* It's pretty telling that we have seen widespread usage of virtually every single Terran unit in a variety of different strategies in this matchup at the top level. I believe the only unit that hasn't seen really widespread usage is the Battlecruiser, although even that is becoming more common in the super super late game. Terrans have tried to take all of these nerfs in stride by migrating to different units and strategies (or by simply executing the old ones better), most of which get subsequently nerfed. We've come to the point where there aren't many remaining options for Terrans to even try. It's no wonder that the matchup has gotten stale. Part of the blame can rightly be laid on Blizzard. They threw in balance changes a bit too quickly without letting Zergs try and innovate and get over any perceived imbalances. They made certain units way too powerful relative to others in the race (Infestor) and other units way too crappy (Hydras). However, the other part of the blame also rightly belongs to the Zerg players that were trying harder to get all of Terrans strategies nerfed instead of asking for more options for their own race, particularly in regards to the early game. It is worth noting that most of the nerfs on that list up there pertain to the early game. Hence, if Zerg early game had simply been buffed so that they could put out aggression (without it being all-in), most of those nerfs probably would not have even been needed. Ultimately, it is the lack of available strategies for both sides that needs fixing. The Raven changes might help slightly in making them more viable, but at this point IMO the damage is already done. Zerg has no early game options and not much late game option either. Terran early game options were all nerfed into oblivion. Thus even if Ravens become the go-to choice it still means that the matchup has defaulted into a bunch of false choices. Suffice to say, it is a good thing that HOTS beta is coming soon. The matchup sorely needs a reboot. Like said before u missed some nerfs but its pretty good summary. Also i think ultras buff was an important one, giving zergs the possibilty to switch easely between bl and ultras in late game. Terrans decided to make mass ghost late game because its pretty good vs both ultras ans BL, but still it was not that easy to play. Now ghosts are useless vs both units, and zergs still can switch easy. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 23 2012 08:50 Sevenofnines wrote: SC2 TvZ: A Brief History -Zergs can't beat mech. Tank damage nerfed. -Zergs can't beat mass Reapers. Reapers nerfed. -Zergs can't handle 2 rax pressure. Raxes now require depot and build time increased. -Zergs can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. Bunkers nerfed. -Zergs still can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. All map sizes increased, close spawns removed from tourneys. -Zergs can't take third base easily. All maps now have very easy thirds. -Zergs can't handle Cloak Banshees. Spore Crawler burrow time reduced. -Zergs can't handle Blue Flame Hellions. Blue Flame nerfed. -Zergs still can't handle Blue Flame Hellions/Other early pressure. Queens buffed. -Zergs can't handle Ghosts sniping everything down. Snipe nerfed. -Zergs can't take fourth base easily. All maps now have relatively easier fourths. Essentially, Zerg whining has changed almost everything in the matchup in their favor and they are still finding ways to lose. It isn't too hard to guess the next line there: -Zergs can't handle Ravens/HSM. *Insert nerf here* This is incomplete, you are missing the complete beta phase of the game, with TvZ specific changes like hydralisk damage and health nerf or the bunker and barracks build time buffs. And then of course stuff like: the roach buff, the infestor buff, the infestor nerfs, the medivac nerf, the ultralisk nerf that was surely only because of mech, the ultralisk building damage nerf (essential nerf for lategame TvZ, because Ultralisks were specifically too good vs PFs) trollololololololololololololol But yeah, Zergs just wanted to have it easy and whined about balanced builds like 5rax reaper, that were completly fair and not the result of roach nerfs in the beta. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:02 Coffee Zombie wrote: Wasn't the Blueflame nerf more for TvT and Spore root time to help with Stargate allins in ZvP? Protoss got a similar treatment, and I think the philosophy is the same. 4 gate used to work, let's make sure it never works again. 1 base Stargate used to work, let's make sure that never works again. So, if you all you ever do is patch the early timings into oblivion, you're stuck with nothing for a solid 12 minutes. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On August 23 2012 14:25 FabledIntegral wrote: I have always found Ravens to be more effective than ghosts, ever since I started using them season 1 back when the game was first released. Reason being I thought ghosts were utter trash and snipe was useless vs Zerg (oh, was I ever wrong). Regardless, I had already become so accustomed to Ravens, it was fine. The composition you need is Raven/Viking. Vikings can attack corrupters at range, and seeker is used simply as a deterrant for them to engage your vikings. You do not advance in with the Ravens if it can be helped. Sometimes it is necessary, but generally speaking. BL/Infestor is insanely immobile, and even if they have 4 spines per expansion, double drops that unload elsewhere then stim in can be a massive pain in the ass. Fungal is only effective vs Ravens if you have something else to take them out. Otherwise, fungal is highly ineffective vs split Ravens, just as it is highly effective vs split Banshees (which not enough people use, almost all my wins vs Korean Zergs have come from a 3-4 port banshee switch when they're using Ling/Infestor/Ultra... split banshees, use cloak, infestors die, even if they hit perfect fungals and IT, it is almost never cost effective, and then you can use them to deny new expansions, while you most Zergs don't even have spire since you typically go infestor straight into hive into ultra). Each time I play this guy zvt, I cry in the corning after I get owned. ^_^ Ravens work very well | ||
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BigJoe
United States210 Posts
With the threat of losing that army zerg can take more bases and tech up to gglords/ultraop (joke guys im not crying imba or anything just trying to get a laugh here) pretty comfortably. Well, that's just my 2 cents. I want to reiterate I think the problem is with fungal and that the raven speed boost wont directly change balance in the matchup. I think if anything it's Blizzards attempt at getting terrans to use them more (but I don't think this change alone is enough) | ||
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
Welcome back to 18 Gas and Roach aggression, Baneling aggression and Speedling expand, and I'm sure we'll see 4 Queen, 6:00 Macro Hatch for 2 base Mutalisk expand before MLG is finished as well. If Zerg has to adapt to 1/1/1 aggression by taking 18 Gas, then I can't see how you can say Range 5 Queens are OP and the only argument you've got left is vs 6 Queens as the greediest economic opening that let's you take a 3rd completely unapposed ... | ||
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coolcor
520 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:39 Big J wrote: This is incomplete, you are missing the complete beta phase of the game, with TvZ specific changes like hydralisk damage and health nerf or the bunker and barracks build time buffs. And then of course stuff like: the roach buff, the infestor buff, the infestor nerfs, the medivac nerf, the ultralisk nerf that was surely only because of mech, the ultralisk building damage nerf (essential nerf for lategame TvZ, because Ultralisks were specifically too good vs PFs) trollololololololololololololol But yeah, Zergs just wanted to have it easy and whined about balanced builds like 5rax reaper, that were completly fair and not the result of roach nerfs in the beta. ya zerg got hit really hard on the roach in beta making the range increase necessary later. Patch 6 (version 0.8.0.14593) Burrowed regeneration rate decreased from 10 to 5. Upgraded burrowed regeneration bonus decreased from +20 to +10. Patch 7 (version 0.9.0.14621B) Organic Carapace no longer grants bonus regeneration to unburrowed roaches. Patch 8 (version 0.9.0.14621B) Burrowed move speed decreased from 2 to 1.4. Armor value decreased from 2 to 1. Patch 12 (version 0.14.0.15343) Supply count increased from 1 to 2. Patch 14 (version 0.16.0.15580) Organic Carapace upgrade removed. Tunneling Claws now also increases burrowed regeneration rate from 5 to 10. I'd like to see what would happen if the burrowed movement speed and/or regeneration where buffed up a bit more those abilities aren't used enough I want cool burrow micro. Some other big nerfs are Spine Crawler The root time has been increased from 6 to 12. Spore Crawler The root time has been increased from 6 to 12. and this one turned a really cool ability into something barely used for the next 2 years just like the reaper. I'd like to see how progamers would handle it if this one was changed back. Nydus Network Nydus Worm build time increased from 10 seconds to 20 seconds. Lastly here is something that people forget about that really helped a lot of terrans win a lot of games. Imagine if this change never happened the entire cloaked banshee opening wouldn't exist as an option! Banshee Cloak: This ability no longer requires Fusion Core to research. | ||
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