|
If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
I'm really tired of people saying that Fungal Growth prevents SM.
If you have a lot of ravens late game, Fungal Growth can delay SM, not prevent it.
If the Terran uses his ravens correctly, the fungals will generally only hit one raven each, which means five fungals per Raven, or 3 infestors with partial energy. Fungal's snare should not cause many Ravens to die, because you should have infantry and/or turrets on the ground controlling space against Unfestors, Corruptors, Mutas, and perhaps Hydras. Any actual attacking units that try to prey on the Ravens, or fight on the gound, can have SM retargeted on them-
Fungal growth is the ONLY anti-air Zerg ability that outranges SM.
Mutas and especially Corruptors are exceptionally vulnerable to PDD, which has great range and can be fired by Ravens near the back. This will buy you the time to fire missiles or disengage, and if he only brought a few units so as to avoid SM, you can remain invulnerable for quite some time.
A quick player can move his mutas back every time there's a missile on them, but he's already at a disadvantage if he has to do that- you can go kill something valuable while he waits for the timer to run out. It's 20 seconds plus return time.
tldr:
Lots of Zergies, they blow up
A few Zergies, turrets kill them
Any number of Zergies; PDD is God Mode.
|
TvZ is fine. I mean its pretty much figured out now. Just a matter of execution.
|
On August 25 2012 19:24 LavaLava wrote:
I'm really tired of people saying that Fungal Growth prevents SM.
If you have a lot of ravens late game, Fungal Growth can delay SM, not prevent it.
If the Terran uses his ravens correctly, the fungals will generally only hit one raven each, which means five fungals per Raven, or 3 infestors with partial energy. Fungal's snare should not cause many Ravens to die, because you should have infantry and/or turrets on the ground controlling space against Unfestors, Corruptors, Mutas, and perhaps Hydras. Any actual attacking units that try to prey on the Ravens, or fight...
Wow so if the terran spread his ravens they wouldn't all get group fungaled so easily. If the zerg spread his corrupters/broodlords then the massive HSM splash damage could be negated. If both races were played how they SHOULD be played, HSM would be useless.
|
On August 25 2012 20:51 Inquisitor1323 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:24 LavaLava wrote:
I'm really tired of people saying that Fungal Growth prevents SM.
If you have a lot of ravens late game, Fungal Growth can delay SM, not prevent it.
If the Terran uses his ravens correctly, the fungals will generally only hit one raven each, which means five fungals per Raven, or 3 infestors with partial energy. Fungal's snare should not cause many Ravens to die, because you should have infantry and/or turrets on the ground controlling space against Unfestors, Corruptors, Mutas, and perhaps Hydras. Any actual attacking units that try to prey on the Ravens, or fight... Wow so if the terran spread his ravens they wouldn't all get group fungaled so easily. If the zerg spread his corrupters/broodlords then the massive HSM splash damage could be negated. If both races were played how they SHOULD be played, HSM would be useless.
agree here just spread your units like everyone else you must do it for storm or emp too
and since you guys knows magic box i see no problem
i mean chain fugual any negate micro
about raven
lets test it out in some games and then qq about the raven change
i looking forward to the change
at least they get medivac speed
|
Does anybody find it disturbing that in WCS Korea, no Ts made it?
7Ps and 3Zs made it out of 11P/9T/12Z.
|
On August 25 2012 19:24 LavaLava wrote:
I'm really tired of people saying that Fungal Growth prevents SM.
If you have a lot of ravens late game, Fungal Growth can delay SM, not prevent it.
If the Terran uses his ravens correctly, the fungals will generally only hit one raven each, which means five fungals per Raven, or 3 infestors with partial energy. Fungal's snare should not cause many Ravens to die, because you should have infantry and/or turrets on the ground controlling space against Unfestors, Corruptors, Mutas, and perhaps Hydras. Any actual attacking units that try to prey on the Ravens, or fight on the gound, can have SM retargeted on them-
Fungal growth is the ONLY anti-air Zerg ability that outranges SM.
Mutas and especially Corruptors are exceptionally vulnerable to PDD, which has great range and can be fired by Ravens near the back. This will buy you the time to fire missiles or disengage, and if he only brought a few units so as to avoid SM, you can remain invulnerable for quite some time.
A quick player can move his mutas back every time there's a missile on them, but he's already at a disadvantage if he has to do that- you can go kill something valuable while he waits for the timer to run out. It's 20 seconds plus return time.
tldr:
Lots of Zergies, they blow up
A few Zergies, turrets kill them
Any number of Zergies; PDD is God Mode.
The problem is that Fungal just negates ANY ability to get out of it once you are caught. When you see a raven coming to you (due to the small range) there is a possibility of splitting, or running like hell (infestors run quickly enough on creep). PDDs work the same way as nukes. If you engage under them and try to force the issue, you better have the ability to crush him.
Fungal is strong against EVERYTHING. Plague in BW was "negatable" with medics ++, Dark Swarm was something you could move out of, just like storm in both games. Fungal does not reward the mechanical aspect of the game, but awareness before the casting happens. It is not a projectile like HSM or EMP. It is instant cast like storm, and gives you the power to force a commitment, not the opposite, which is something the other spells do. Casting a nuke forces your opponent to gtfo. HSM and EMP do the same, and also make you pull back/split. Fungal works the other way where if you get caught, there is no way to combat it without doing what your opponent wants you to do.
|
I think HoTs will hopefully fix this huge TvZ problem. Then maybe Terran will have a better late game.
|
On August 25 2012 20:51 Inquisitor1323 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 19:24 LavaLava wrote:
I'm really tired of people saying that Fungal Growth prevents SM.
If you have a lot of ravens late game, Fungal Growth can delay SM, not prevent it.
If the Terran uses his ravens correctly, the fungals will generally only hit one raven each, which means five fungals per Raven, or 3 infestors with partial energy. Fungal's snare should not cause many Ravens to die, because you should have infantry and/or turrets on the ground controlling space against Unfestors, Corruptors, Mutas, and perhaps Hydras. Any actual attacking units that try to prey on the Ravens, or fight... Wow so if the terran spread his ravens they wouldn't all get group fungaled so easily. If the zerg spread his corrupters/broodlords then the massive HSM splash damage could be negated. If both races were played how they SHOULD be played, HSM would be useless.
If both sides spread out their units to that extend before the combat, both fungal and HSM become singlefire abilities which won't make a lot of sense compared to the other meant-to-be singlefire abilities they have.
In such a scenario, it would probably come down to: who can pick of more stuff, very slowly, very methodically as any move or attack command with mutlitple units will reclump you very fast.
It would be very interesting to see this scenario, but I doubt that any map even offers as much open space and that there will ever occur a situation in which spreading out that much through natural maneuvering won't just cost you the game, as the player that is not clumped might just be able to engage you from an angle that you cannot reinforce against fast enough.
(Imagine a spread out line of broodlords, infestors and corruptors and then vikings flank that line and just start picking of some units for free; or a spread out viking/raven/Terran ground line and the zerg just starts to throw ITs under the outer spots)
However this would end, the player who wins in such a fight would definatly have to have great micro (and awareness as this line would be multiple screens long)
|
On August 25 2012 21:42 NaEjeOn88 wrote:
I think HoTs will hopefully fix this huge TvZ problem. Then maybe Terran will have a better late game.
yeah i think so to. Hots will do some wonders for all races. We just have to wait and see how the meta look when hots comes out.
|
On August 25 2012 21:18 YyapSsap wrote:
Does anybody find it disturbing that in WCS Korea, no Ts made it?
7Ps and 3Zs made it out of 11P/9T/12Z.
not really thier opponents played better so ofc they win
|
Why wait for HOTS to fix TvZ -_-;;
It's so easy, revert queen range.
|
On August 25 2012 22:44 MisterTea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 21:18 YyapSsap wrote:
Does anybody find it disturbing that in WCS Korea, no Ts made it?
7Ps and 3Zs made it out of 11P/9T/12Z.
not really thier opponents played better so ofc they win
I'm sure you were sayin the same about zergs during the gomTvT era...
BTT: the OP fails to mention terran drops, which are one of the best weapons of terran in TvZ right now by allowing to punish the overdroning zerg (queens can't be everywhere at once) but I still agree overall. but as a diamond player my input is hardly relevant anyway (but for the info, my ZvT is 10 times better than my TvZ but that would be because I don't have the APM required to play terran decently - which btw makes me think zerg is too easy, as I played a lot more of terran in my sc2 "career" but end up being stronger with zerg)
|
If we examine WCS race distribution we can see notice there are a lot less terran players than zerg or protoss.
|
On August 25 2012 21:18 YyapSsap wrote:
Does anybody find it disturbing that in WCS Korea, no Ts made it?
7Ps and 3Zs made it out of 11P/9T/12Z.
its not just WCS korea, all of the WCS from around the world had minimal terrans.
|
On August 25 2012 19:24 LavaLava wrote:
I'm really tired of people saying that Fungal Growth prevents SM.
If you have a lot of ravens late game, Fungal Growth can delay SM, not prevent it.
If the Terran uses his ravens correctly, the fungals will generally only hit one raven each, which means five fungals per Raven, or 3 infestors with partial energy. Fungal's snare should not cause many Ravens to die, because you should have infantry and/or turrets on the ground controlling space against Unfestors, Corruptors, Mutas, and perhaps Hydras. Any actual attacking units that try to prey on the Ravens, or fight on the gound, can have SM retargeted on them-
Fungal growth is the ONLY anti-air Zerg ability that outranges SM.
Mutas and especially Corruptors are exceptionally vulnerable to PDD, which has great range and can be fired by Ravens near the back. This will buy you the time to fire missiles or disengage, and if he only brought a few units so as to avoid SM, you can remain invulnerable for quite some time.
A quick player can move his mutas back every time there's a missile on them, but he's already at a disadvantage if he has to do that- you can go kill something valuable while he waits for the timer to run out. It's 20 seconds plus return time.
tldr:
Lots of Zergies, they blow up
A few Zergies, turrets kill them
Any number of Zergies; PDD is God Mode.
mmm and i thought Neural could hit air with a range of 7. Or infested terrans could be thrown. Seeker is no danger until you get out of position, just like neural is no danger until you get out of position. The ranges might be different, but the combination gives for an interesting positional play. With the advantage on the terran side, though they don't have the production to make an mistake in this situation and they could only go forward rather slowly. Though including ghosts as well is pretty nice. Banshees and marauders can't reach infestors once they are fungaled, ghosts can and the 2 shot makes it possible, that the infestor doesn't escape. But of course the other 2 infestor remover units are a move.
|
On August 25 2012 23:39 FeyFey wrote:
mmm and i thought Neural could hit air with a range of 7. Or infested terrans could be thrown. Seeker is no danger until you get out of position, just like neural is no danger until you get out of position. The ranges might be different, but the combination gives for an interesting positional play. With the advantage on the terran side, though they don't have the production to make an mistake in this situation and they could only go forward rather slowly. Though including ghosts as well is pretty nice. Banshees and marauders can't reach infestors once they are fungaled, ghosts can and the 2 shot makes it possible, that the infestor doesn't escape. But of course the other 2 infestor remover units are a move.
Neural is pretty damned useless. Remember how Seeker Missiles are supposed to be easy to dodge? They aren't that easy to dodge, but you know what is? Seeker Missile with a 2 second delay and a giant tentacle reaching across the battlefield at one particular Raven... while your Infestors are unselected and can't do anything but get shot up by auto turrets. All so that you can have your two raven vs 10-20 raven battle. You should just use fungal to slow him down.
Everyone wrote:
Brood lord split.
It's fine if he splits his brood lords, that means you just have to pick at them with Vikings. It will be a lot easier to do if he has them spread out. He still can't engage your ravens, because large groups will get PDD and Missiles on them, forcing them to run or explode, and small groups will get easily killed by the vikings. Nobody said you have to use Seeker Missile at any given moment.
Besides, Brood lords are so expensive, it can actually be worth it to hit maybe two of them with a Seeker Missile, one if it's simply urgent. You're trading a large amount of one Raven's energy (100/200) for a lot of health off brood lords (300/250 each).
|
I think the problem might not be TvZ per se but rather Blizzard's attitude towards the Terran race, and perhaps some other things in Blizzard's approach. While it's true that big nerfs have happened in the past to all races, Blizzard does have a tendency to prefer small changes, supposedly. I can't really see how the Queen buff is a small change. It feels more like a "let's mess up the metagame" change. A change from range 3 to range 5 is a +66% change, that is hardly minimal. Why not 4, especially in the beginning?
I also have the impression that Blizzard is giving Terrans too much l2p. The fun in playing Terran diminishes in connection with this, it just feels too punishing and Blizzard's attitude isn't helping. As for Blizzard's attitude, without wanting to be hostile towards Blizzard, I believe it would help to be 1) more open (more outgoing when it comes to providing reasons as to why things are done or not done, giving more warning), 2) more consistent (as in, it would help if the effects of the interventions made in the balance of the game were consistent with their stated reasons, not let's say, a TvZ nerf that has large implications in TvP that don't get addressed). There should not be silence in situations like the current one.
Also, while I don't wanto to make a conclusive assertion, I'm inclined to think that fungal is OP. Unlike some other posters, I actually think that looking at the raven in this connection is actually a good reflex. This is because the ghost alone is not a direct, strict counterpart of the infestor or the high templar. It is a weaker caster than either of those two units. However, the raven is a "caster" too. The HSM is the Terran AoE. It is the counterpart of fungal or storm, I guess. If Terrans want something along the lines of fungal or storm, and I believe they should have it, the only such thing is the HSM, which comes from the raven. To fix raven speed and accelaration or anything else making the micro easier is a good thing in making ravens more accessible to Terran players. This said, they are indeed too risky, too easy to waste, it all takes too long.
Without implying that this somehow connects with the merits of whether or not fungal is OP, I would like to turn everybody's attention to how frustrating it is psychologically to watch fungal at work if you're not on the Zerg side. It doesn't kill units outright. It makes them helpless, unusable, until they inevitably die. As others have said, it negates micro. It preempts HSM too. I suppose direct damage could actually be less frustrating, you at least wouldn't be looking at, let's say, a full medivac of marines wiggling in convulsions for a long time. (Although, I guess, looking at a pack of broodlords die to 2 HSMs is frustrating too.) It may be true, perhaps, that the psychological effects of fungal are worse than the actual losses it inflicts on the opponent in numerical terms.
|
Protip: NP raven with 7 range infestor npnp
Seriously, the range on HSM is retarded
|
On August 26 2012 02:15 NewbieOne wrote:
I think the problem might not be TvZ per se but rather Blizzard's attitude towards the Terran race, and perhaps some other things in Blizzard's approach. While it's true that big nerfs have happened in the past to all races, Blizzard does have a tendency to prefer small changes, supposedly. I can't really see how the Queen buff is a small change. It feels more like a "let's mess up the metagame" change. A change from range 3 to range 5 is a +66% change, that is hardly minimal. Why not 4, especially in the beginning?
I also have the impression that Blizzard is giving Terrans too much l2p. The fun in playing Terran diminishes in connection with this, it just feels too punishing and Blizzard's attitude isn't helping.
Blizzard's attitude about Terran is awful:
They say they want to make early game strategies unreliable.
They say they want to make late game strategies reliable.
And they say that Terran should be an early game race.
In other words they want Terran to be inherently unreliable and rush-based.
|
On August 26 2012 02:48 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:15 NewbieOne wrote:
I think the problem might not be TvZ per se but rather Blizzard's attitude towards the Terran race, and perhaps some other things in Blizzard's approach. While it's true that big nerfs have happened in the past to all races, Blizzard does have a tendency to prefer small changes, supposedly. I can't really see how the Queen buff is a small change. It feels more like a "let's mess up the metagame" change. A change from range 3 to range 5 is a +66% change, that is hardly minimal. Why not 4, especially in the beginning?
I also have the impression that Blizzard is giving Terrans too much l2p. The fun in playing Terran diminishes in connection with this, it just feels too punishing and Blizzard's attitude isn't helping. Blizzard's attitude about Terran is awful: They say they want to make early game strategies unreliable. They say they want to make late game strategies reliable. And they say that Terran should be an early game race.In other words they want Terran to be inherently unreliable and rush-based.
No, they said that Terran can be in trouble against Protoss if they don't emphasize on their reliable strengths in the earlier phases of the game.
In other words, they said that Terran early game strenghts against Protoss are reliable enough to put them in a reasonable spot for the later stages of the game.
+ Show Spoiler +I really wish blizzard had never made this PvT commend, as it seems like noone has ever read it properly and I really start to understand why blizzard does not explain anything anymore. People just read what they want to read, no matter how carefully they choose their words.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
