|
If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 26 2012 03:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:48 LavaLava wrote:On August 26 2012 02:15 NewbieOne wrote:
I think the problem might not be TvZ per se but rather Blizzard's attitude towards the Terran race, and perhaps some other things in Blizzard's approach. While it's true that big nerfs have happened in the past to all races, Blizzard does have a tendency to prefer small changes, supposedly. I can't really see how the Queen buff is a small change. It feels more like a "let's mess up the metagame" change. A change from range 3 to range 5 is a +66% change, that is hardly minimal. Why not 4, especially in the beginning?
I also have the impression that Blizzard is giving Terrans too much l2p. The fun in playing Terran diminishes in connection with this, it just feels too punishing and Blizzard's attitude isn't helping. Blizzard's attitude about Terran is awful: They say they want to make early game strategies unreliable. They say they want to make late game strategies reliable. And they say that Terran should be an early game race.In other words they want Terran to be inherently unreliable and rush-based. No, they said that Terran can be in trouble against Protoss if they don't emphasize on their reliable strengths in the earlier phases of the game. In other words, they said that Terran early game strenghts against Protoss are reliable enough to put them in a reasonable spot for the later stages of the game. + Show Spoiler +I really wish blizzard had never made this PvT commend, as it seems like noone has ever read it properly and I really start to understand why blizzard does not explain anything anymore. People just read what they want to read, no matter how carefully they choose their words. I agree with text in spoiler, it annoys me more and more.
|
Wow this thread is so full of misquoting, selective reading, selective memory, and extreme exaggeration its hard to believe any kind of meaningful discussion is going on here
|
Actually, Protoss is stronger than Terran in early game (better at all-inning, generally better access to strong openings, I think). It's mid-game where Terran is supposed to be stronger than Toss.
The whole talk about it doesn't sound very convincing. I could perhaps accept the idea that the early, mid and late game balance shifts are just how the game has turned out in effect but if it's working as designed, then I'm inclined to disagree with that design. I can understand that this race is stronger around 7:30, that one around 10:00, another around 13:00, but it shouldn't be like past a certain threshold you're basically no longer supported. Every race should have a developed, functional and non-inferior late-game.
On August 26 2012 03:41 Supamang wrote:
Wow this thread is so full of misquoting, selective reading, selective memory, and extreme exaggeration its hard to believe any kind of meaningful discussion is going on here
I agree and I'm probably guilty of some of it too but the same can be said for that side of the debate which says everything is okay or acceptable right now. Including Blizzard (yes, I can point out where Blizzard loses it).
|
On August 26 2012 03:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 02:48 LavaLava wrote:On August 26 2012 02:15 NewbieOne wrote:
I think the problem might not be TvZ per se but rather Blizzard's attitude towards the Terran race, and perhaps some other things in Blizzard's approach. While it's true that big nerfs have happened in the past to all races, Blizzard does have a tendency to prefer small changes, supposedly. I can't really see how the Queen buff is a small change. It feels more like a "let's mess up the metagame" change. A change from range 3 to range 5 is a +66% change, that is hardly minimal. Why not 4, especially in the beginning?
I also have the impression that Blizzard is giving Terrans too much l2p. The fun in playing Terran diminishes in connection with this, it just feels too punishing and Blizzard's attitude isn't helping. Blizzard's attitude about Terran is awful: They say they want to make early game strategies unreliable. They say they want to make late game strategies reliable. And they say that Terran should be an early game race.In other words they want Terran to be inherently unreliable and rush-based. No, they said that Terran can be in trouble against Protoss if they don't emphasize on their reliable strengths in the earlier phases of the game. In other words, they said that Terran early game strenghts against Protoss are reliable enough to put them in a reasonable spot for the later stages of the game. + Show Spoiler +I really wish blizzard had never made this PvT commend, as it seems like noone has ever read it properly and I really start to understand why blizzard does not explain anything anymore. People just read what they want to read, no matter how carefully they choose their words.
But they've also shown that their philosophy is that specific early game attacks are not allowed to be reliable. Changes will always be made to the game to prevent reliable damage. Anything that almost always hurts, will be taken out of the game.
I mean, the Queen buff happened because they didn't like Terrans always running in and trading evenly for Drones. Simple reliable early game damage, which often wasn't even worth the loss of map control.
On the other hand, reliable lategame compositions are never too strong in Blizzard's eyes- because those lategame armies have to be "earned" so to speak.
But they don't want Terran to have anything they can reliably tech to that is as good as Protoss Splash or Zerg BL/Infestor.
Terran had figured out Zerg's early game, and there were a lot of very exciting matches, but the sameness of reactor Hellion expands somehow angered Blizzard and they made them far less viable. Meanwhile you see the same opener from Zerg every game, Protoss still FFEs every PvZ. For some reason those things are fine if they happen all the time. And now we're actually seeing a lot less variation from Terran, because they're just trying to get a lot of OC's etc. And then there's a lot of MMM now. Woo, MMM.
Basically Blizzard just has a backwards philosophy for the races and if they haven't made the game worse yet, it is completely inevitable that they will at some point in the future.
|
|
|
On August 26 2012 03:49 LavaLava wrote:
Terran had figured out Zerg's early game, and there were a lot of very exciting matches, but the sameness of reactor Hellion expands somehow angered Blizzard and they made them far less viable. Meanwhile you see the same opener from Zerg every game, Protoss still FFEs every PvZ. For some reason those things are fine if they happen all the time. And now we're actually seeing a lot less variation from Terran, because they're just trying to get a lot of OC's etc. And then there's a lot of MMM now. Woo, MMM.
Basically Blizzard just has a backwards philosophy for the races and if they haven't made the game worse yet, it is completely inevitable that they will at some point in the future.
I'm inclined to agree. Terran is getting more and more streamlined simply on the principle that nothing else works. And whatever actually works eventually gets nerfed perhaps because it's too commonly used.
For the record, I don't think FE will ever get nerfed for any race but I'd rather it were a bit more viable as Terran on ladder.
|
terrans in the wcs series - 7/32 na, 8/32 europe, 3/32 asia, 2/8 oceania, 2/16 sa.
so far only 3/20 qualifiers for worlds are terran. the wcg world championship will be mostly zvz, zvp, pvp
this makes this zerg sad. and i do not think that buffing raven speed will be the answer.
|
On August 26 2012 11:58 bahunto28 wrote:
terrans in the wcs series - 7/32 na, 8/32 europe, 3/32 asia, 2/8 oceania, 2/16 sa.
so far only 3/20 qualifiers for worlds are terran. the wcg world championship will be mostly zvz, zvp, pvp
this makes this zerg sad. and i do not think that buffing raven speed will be the answer.
I don't know if that is necessarily evidence of imbalance. At least in the case of oceania there is tons of zergs not because of balance, but because the SEA server has tons of zergs for some reason.
|
On August 26 2012 12:22 734pot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 11:58 bahunto28 wrote:
terrans in the wcs series - 7/32 na, 8/32 europe, 3/32 asia, 2/8 oceania, 2/16 sa.
so far only 3/20 qualifiers for worlds are terran. the wcg world championship will be mostly zvz, zvp, pvp
this makes this zerg sad. and i do not think that buffing raven speed will be the answer. I don't know if that is necessarily evidence of imbalance. At least in the case of oceania there is tons of zergs not because of balance, but because the SEA server has tons of zergs for some reason.
We're seeing some weak Terran numbers in places like TSL4 and the recent IEM. Some lesser players are doing really well against some of the Terran powerhouses, and we have hardly seen any Terrans rise up in the scene for months.
Now, don't mistake this as a claim that Terran can't win. There are still Terran powerhouses, and they still do really well, win tournaments, and beat "lesser" players.
|
The two times I have watched this guy's stream he complains about ALL THREE races. I read this entire post, looked at the name of who typed it up and flipped my desk....
|
On August 26 2012 14:19 elewie wrote:
The two times I have watched this guy's stream he complains about ALL THREE races. I read this entire post, looked at the name of who typed it up and flipped my desk....
Have to agree on that, I would be open to a real discussion about "balance", and the way match up are evolving in this game, but I watched almost an hour of avilo's stream, and it simply was torture. This guy played horrrrriibly vs a Zerg, twice, ended up by saying "Patch zergs obviously", when he got outplayed so much, I mean, how the fuck do you want to be at least a little bit taken seriously after that? You're not looking for balance, or for a well developped SC2, you just want the easy way, and you picked the wrong race for that, switch / get better / quit, there's your 3 options, trying to convince the community is just pointless, you can twist every facts and patch around to make your point, but you'll still loose mate. GL I guess
|
On August 30 2012 01:33 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 14:19 elewie wrote:
The two times I have watched this guy's stream he complains about ALL THREE races. I read this entire post, looked at the name of who typed it up and flipped my desk.... Have to agree on that, I would be open to a real discussion about "balance", and the way match up are evolving in this game, but I watched almost an hour of avilo's stream, and it simply was torture. This guy played horrrrriibly vs a Zerg, twice, ended up by saying "Patch zergs obviously", when he got outplayed so much, I mean, how the fuck do you want to be at least a little bit taken seriously after that? You're not looking for balance, or for a well developped SC2, you just want the easy way, and you picked the wrong race for that, switch / get better / quit, there's your 3 options, trying to convince the community is just pointless, you can twist every facts and patch around to make your point, but you'll still loose mate. GL I guess
He beat the zerg player IMHorror the other day on his stream...
The guy has some serious insights into the game, although he whines a lot after losing, most of it is just because he is disappointed. He doesn't pretend that he is not BM and acts all stuck up about it as most of the community.
If you actually watched his stream with an unbiased eye for a little more than that you will see that your claim that he wants the easy way is horribly false. If anything, he complains that Zerg and Protoss should be harder. He wants to play terran because he feels that Terran rewards his multitasking and strategical thinking best.
He has on multiple occasions specifically stated that he doesn't want Terran play to become easier to fix the current issues with the game.
Now I might sound as a complete fanboy, but one of the biggest problems I have with TL.net is that semi-poor posts like yours are allowed because the mods only actively go after the really poor ones that stand out while good quality posting is not encouraged. The overall effect is that the floods of semi-poor posts in every thread aren't stopped .
You are simply wrong.
edit: qxc has also made a blog post about the raven. Maybe there is a reason why more terran players are concerned about the raven and that this is not just avilo whining?
|
|
|
On August 30 2012 01:55 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 01:33 mahO wrote:On August 26 2012 14:19 elewie wrote:
The two times I have watched this guy's stream he complains about ALL THREE races. I read this entire post, looked at the name of who typed it up and flipped my desk.... Have to agree on that, I would be open to a real discussion about "balance", and the way match up are evolving in this game, but I watched almost an hour of avilo's stream, and it simply was torture. This guy played horrrrriibly vs a Zerg, twice, ended up by saying "Patch zergs obviously", when he got outplayed so much, I mean, how the fuck do you want to be at least a little bit taken seriously after that? You're not looking for balance, or for a well developped SC2, you just want the easy way, and you picked the wrong race for that, switch / get better / quit, there's your 3 options, trying to convince the community is just pointless, you can twist every facts and patch around to make your point, but you'll still loose mate. GL I guess He beat the zerg player IMHorror the other day on his stream... The guy has some serious insights into the game, although he whines a lot after losing, most of it is just because he is disappointed. He doesn't pretend that he is not BM and acts all stuck up about it as most of the community. If you actually watched his stream with an unbiased eye for a little more than that you will see that your claim that he wants the easy way is horribly false. If anything, he complains that Zerg and Protoss should be harder. He wants to play terran because he feels that Terran rewards his multitasking and strategical thinking best. He has on multiple occasions specifically stated that he doesn't want Terran play to become easier to fix the current issues with the game. Now I might sound as a complete fanboy, but one of the biggest problems I have with TL.net is that semi-poor posts like yours are allowed because the mods only actively go after the really poor ones. The overall effect is that the floods of semi-poor posts in every thread aren't stopped. You are simply wrong.
One-one-one: You are 100% a fan boy. I have also read a number a large number of your posts in threads dealing with "terran balance issues" and I would charitability call your point of view bias. It is clear you have a bone to pick and believe the game is unfair stacked against terran. It is only natural that you would enjoy watching Avilo's stream, since he has the same views you do.
Also, you may wish to avoid such blatant ad hominem arguments in the future. Insulting the quality of TL moderation and the "quality" of the post does not make your argument strong, since you provide very little reasoning as to why the post is bad. You say that Avilo does not want the game to be easier, but he simply asks for the other races to be more difficult to play. When you ask for the game to be made more difficult for your opponents, it is the same thing as asking the game to be easier for yourself.
I have attempted to watch Avilo's stream because people seem to thing he is insight into the game and how to play. However, I did not feel he provided any insight and most the the information he provided did not match up with more succussful terran's opinions on how to play. This, combined with the fact that he complained back when the reaper nerf was put into place and has not stopped since, gives a lot of people a very good idea as to what Avilo opinion is.
|
Plansix:
You seem to have some kind of grudge against me.
Also, you may wish to avoid such blatant ad hominem arguments in the future. Insulting the quality of TL moderation and the "quality" of the post does not make your argument strong, since you provide very little reasoning as to why the post is bad. You say that Avilo does not want the game to be easier, but he simply asks for the other races to be more difficult to play. When you ask for the game to be made more difficult for your opponents, it is the same thing as asking the game to be easier for yourself.
Just because you use the word "ad hominem" doesn't make your point valid.
I clearly provided enough reasoning since I showed that all, or at least most, of his points about avilo were wrong.
There is indeed a difference between making the other two races harder and making your own race easier.
It is not the same thing.
As for high quality posting I clearly remember a post that you made in response to a post by me in the TLPD win rate statistics where you really shine. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15301437
Then go look at my follow up posts in that thread and tell me again about what Terran bias I show in that thread?
Also look at the posts in reply to yours where people tell you that you clearly have misunderstood what I wrote.
Never mind that I have a degree in mathematics while you probably do not...
edit: I have probably written some biased posts myself after being upset or whatever, but I still think that I have pretty good concepts about game balance/imbalance.
|
On August 30 2012 02:33 one-one-one wrote:Plansix: You seem to have some kind of grudge against me. Show nested quote +
Also, you may wish to avoid such blatant ad hominem arguments in the future. Insulting the quality of TL moderation and the "quality" of the post does not make your argument strong, since you provide very little reasoning as to why the post is bad. You say that Avilo does not want the game to be easier, but he simply asks for the other races to be more difficult to play. When you ask for the game to be made more difficult for your opponents, it is the same thing as asking the game to be easier for yourself.
Just because you use the word "ad hominem" doesn't make your point valid. I clearly provided enough reasoning since I showed that all, or at least most, of his points about avilo were wrong. There is indeed a difference between making the other two races harder and making your own race easier. It is not the same thing. As for high quality posting I clearly remember a post that you made in response to a post by me in the TLPD win rate statistics where you really shine. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15301437Then go look at my follow up posts in that thread and tell me again about what Terran bias I show in that thread? Also look at the posts in reply to yours where people tell you that you clearly have misunderstood what I wrote. Never mind that I have a degree in mathematics while you probably do not... edit: I have probably written some biased posts myself after being upset or whatever, but I still think that I have pretty good concepts about game balance/imbalance.
First off, I was rather proud of that post. It was most of my more amusing work. Second off all, I do not take many, if any arguments of imbalance seriously, regardless of who they come from. Personally, I believed that all of my losses are my own fault for playing poorly, regardless of my opponent. Even if my opponent took a blind risk for an easy win, I feel it is my burden to locate and scout those risks. I have a long history of playing boardgames, like GO and chess, where you have no one to blame but yourself when you lose.
I do not believe the game needs other races need to be made “harder” and I believe people who are requesting because they have hit a wall in their play and don’t know how to improve further. All the races have equally hard parts to their play and people just discount the challenge of each race because it is easier than facing their own faults. If imbalance exists, it is mostly created by maps and not by the specific abilities of each race. If a player is getting rolled in a specific match up, they are likely not taking advantage of a timing that their opponents are leaving open earlier in the match.
I also find all the focus on balance discussions to be distracting and not fruitful. It detracts from the over all enjoyment of the game, real discussion on maps and the best way to respond to specific styles. It is a black hole that drags us all into it, but leads to nothing good.
I have lost to my far share of a-moved armies in the past, mostly filled with roaches and lings. I have no one to blame but myself for letting it get to that point.
|
And during all the debates over balance, Taeja still rapes everyone without any buffed raven ...
|
On August 30 2012 05:00 GregMandel wrote:
And during all the debates over balance, Taeja still rapes everyone without any buffed raven ...
Just like Fruitdealer and Nestea won GSL Season 1 and 2 in 2010. Clearly Zerg was fine back then...
|
Mass raven doesnt work unless you're Mvp x)
|
mfw i read a giant wall of text just to find out i disagree with all of it :0
mfw i read the op and its fucking avilo >
WHY DO U EVEN POST
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
