EPT[D] The raven buff does not address TvZ issues - Page 44
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. | ||
|
fawkz
Bangladesh36 Posts
| ||
|
xmungam
United States1050 Posts
On August 26 2012 03:41 Supamang wrote: Wow this thread is so full of misquoting, selective reading, selective memory, and extreme exaggeration its hard to believe any kind of meaningful discussion is going on here i could post this anywhere on the internet and it would probably be true... hahaha also the title of this thread is so ridiculous "x does not solve problem y" . that could ALWAYS be said no matter anything. | ||
|
one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On August 30 2012 04:51 Plansix wrote: First off, I was rather proud of that post. It was most of my more amusing work. Second off all, I do not take many, if any arguments of imbalance seriously, regardless of who they come from. Personally, I believed that all of my losses are my own fault for playing poorly, regardless of my opponent. Even if my opponent took a blind risk for an easy win, I feel it is my burden to locate and scout those risks. I have a long history of playing boardgames, like GO and chess, where you have no one to blame but yourself when you lose. I do not believe the game needs other races need to be made “harder” and I believe people who are requesting because they have hit a wall in their play and don’t know how to improve further. All the races have equally hard parts to their play and people just discount the challenge of each race because it is easier than facing their own faults. If imbalance exists, it is mostly created by maps and not by the specific abilities of each race. If a player is getting rolled in a specific match up, they are likely not taking advantage of a timing that their opponents are leaving open earlier in the match. I also find all the focus on balance discussions to be distracting and not fruitful. It detracts from the over all enjoyment of the game, real discussion on maps and the best way to respond to specific styles. It is a black hole that drags us all into it, but leads to nothing good. I have lost to my far share of a-moved armies in the past, mostly filled with roaches and lings. I have no one to blame but myself for letting it get to that point. The only funny thing about that post was how stupid it was, I'll give you that. I wouldn't be so proud over it ... But another thing strikes me though. You didn't participate in the debate in this thread. Your first post here was another personal attack on me. I was telling a guy to basically keep himself on topic and discuss Ravens in TvZ instead of bashing the OP. Then you come in and accuse _me_ of using "ad hominems" as you eloquently put it. In your reply you ramble about how little you care about balance/imbalance talk. This thread isn't about that at all which is pointed out explicitly by the OP. But I guess you didn't even read that. What the hell Plansix? ... So, what is your take on the raven situation in TvZ? | ||
|
DontNerfInfestors
Spain280 Posts
| ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 30 2012 20:04 DontNerfInfestors wrote: Decrease Queen Range and increase its speed so we have queens that kite void rays And what would be the point of that? | ||
|
Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
| ||
|
DontNerfInfestors
Spain280 Posts
2 stargate void ray rush (proxy if not close by air) on maps that are hard to scout like TDA or conemned ridge http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=364581 vote to see what the community thinks about the current map pool | ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 30 2012 20:48 DontNerfInfestors wrote: 2 stargate void ray rush (proxy if not close by air) on maps that are hard to scout like TDA or conemned ridge http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=364581 vote to see what the community thinks about the current map pool That build is not an issue. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 30 2012 19:58 one-one-one wrote: The only funny thing about that post was how stupid it was, I'll give you that. I wouldn't be so proud over it ... But another thing strikes me though. You didn't participate in the debate in this thread. Your first post here was another personal attack on me. I was telling a guy to basically keep himself on topic and discuss Ravens in TvZ instead of bashing the OP. Then you come in and accuse _me_ of using "ad hominems" as you eloquently put it. In your reply you ramble about how little you care about balance/imbalance talk. This thread isn't about that at all which is pointed out explicitly by the OP. But I guess you didn't even read that. What the hell Plansix? ... So, what is your take on the raven situation in TvZ? There you go again, talking down to the people again. You are aware of what an ad hominem argument is, correct? Ad hominem mean that you insult the posters or question their intelligence, rather than address their arguments on face value. As someone who works in a field that argues professional, it is the weakest and more irritating form of argument to address. It is the main reason I have a ‘grudge’ against you, since I dislike people who’s main tactic in arguments is to talking down to others. As for the Raven, I feel it should be buffed simply because it underused. Terran has been unable to fit the Raven into any of the match ups and having it move at the same speed as medivacs is a good way to attempt to make it more viable. Mobile detection would be a huge boost to almost any match up for terran, as it frees up scans that can be used for extra income. This also feeds into the tactics used by Teaja in using mass mules at vulnerable expansions and increased use of the PFs. As a whole, I think ZvP is being figured slowly figured out and terrans are learning to how to punish the zerg’s greed. The raven buff would be a good boost, as more units and abilities are always good for the game. | ||
|
one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On August 31 2012 01:26 Plansix wrote: There you go again, talking down to the people again. You are aware of what an ad hominem argument is, correct? Ad hominem mean that you insult the posters or question their intelligence, rather than address their arguments on face value. As someone who works in a field that argues professional, it is the weakest and more irritating form of argument to address. It is the main reason I have a ‘grudge’ against you, since I dislike people who’s main tactic in arguments is to talking down to others. As for the Raven, I feel it should be buffed simply because it underused. Terran has been unable to fit the Raven into any of the match ups and having it move at the same speed as medivacs is a good way to attempt to make it more viable. Mobile detection would be a huge boost to almost any match up for terran, as it frees up scans that can be used for extra income. This also feeds into the tactics used by Teaja in using mass mules at vulnerable expansions and increased use of the PFs. As a whole, I think ZvP is being figured slowly figured out and terrans are learning to how to punish the zerg’s greed. The raven buff would be a good boost, as more units and abilities are always good for the game. You still don't get it ... My first post in this thread was in response to a guy using insults and his self perceived ideas about the OP instead of arguing about the topic - Blizzard's suggested raven changes and how they will adress the issues terran are experiencing in the matchup. I also said that he was wrong in what he claimed and explained why I thought so with real arguments. Then I also said that I found the quality of his post quite poor. Guess what? A post can be both wrong and of poor quality, and attacking both the quality and the factual errors certainly does not indicate that my main discussion tactic is to use insults. Last time you wrote to me you also pulled "ranks" telling me that you worked for a big bank and implying that you had some kind of authority to call the number cooking you accused me of doing. You were wrong back then and you eventually had to admit that you had no problems with my numbers. Now you come in completely from the side accusing me of using down talking as my main argumentation method. So you were wrong one more time and once again you tried to pull ranks by referring to your work and how experienced you are with facing peoples argumentation techniques. I find your attitude very arrogant. Before you make such accusations you could at least read my post properly and make an effort to understand the context. Did you even read the OP ? Now this shit is cluttering the thread so if you want to respond I recommend doing so in a PM. I won't write anything more about this to you here. As for your take on the raven you have missed the main point in the OP - how the suggested changes will help terrans deal with Zergs lategame. I'm not saying that your take on the whole raven thing is wrong though, but mobile detection and the slightly fewer scans is not super important in the lategame. At least not important enough to justify mass raven usage. | ||
|
Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
| ||
|
Homework
United States283 Posts
Each side has to micro against the other for an advantageous position. Terrans continue to lose to zergs in large tournaments because they absolutely refuse to do things like split their vikings, build extra starports, or spread out their MMM balls. Zergs lose to Terrans because even though BL/Infestor is the "godly" composition that no one can ever lose with, ever, there's still some major drawbacks involved. BL/Inf is undeniably slow, has major difficulty dealing with drops, and is ridiculously expensive. Don't want to be fungaled? Split your shit, bros. It's about as hard as clicking "F". | ||
|
Vari
United States532 Posts
On August 31 2012 03:35 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: after watching some recent high level play, i don't think Terran is UP, it just took some time for them to adapt. Terran needs to play more adaptive now (scout+macro), you can't do blind timing push builds any more. Also you need to take more risks early game. A lot of complaints here sound like beginner zergs complaints about 'unscoutable' all-ins by beginner zergs do you mean pro zergs for the first 2 years of the game? I don't think terran is in that bad of a place either, honestly I think if the raven buff WAS gonna "fix" tvz no one would ever care about the name avilo again so of course he supports the idea that it won't. but things are fairly difficult right now, so if t can just briefly be given the leeway on complaining z was for 2 years that'd be awesome. | ||
|
Vari
United States532 Posts
On August 31 2012 04:04 Homework wrote: I don't mean to be overly simplistic here, but I feel like TvZ is a balanced matchup. Each side has to micro against the other for an advantageous position. Terrans continue to lose to zergs in large tournaments because they absolutely refuse to do things like split their vikings, build extra starports, or spread out their MMM balls. Zergs lose to Terrans because even though BL/Infestor is the "godly" composition that no one can ever lose with, ever, there's still some major drawbacks involved. BL/Inf is undeniably slow, has major difficulty dealing with drops, and is ridiculously expensive. Don't want to be fungaled? Split your shit, bros. It's about as hard as clicking "F". hahaha, pros don't split that's actually hilarious almost as funny as zerg requiring the same micro as terran. good shit! | ||
|
zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On August 31 2012 04:04 Homework wrote: I don't mean to be overly simplistic here, but I feel like TvZ is a balanced matchup. Each side has to micro against the other for an advantageous position. Terrans continue to lose to zergs in large tournaments because they absolutely refuse to do things like split their vikings, build extra starports, or spread out their MMM balls. Zergs lose to Terrans because even though BL/Infestor is the "godly" composition that no one can ever lose with, ever, there's still some major drawbacks involved. BL/Inf is undeniably slow, has major difficulty dealing with drops, and is ridiculously expensive. Don't want to be fungaled? Split your shit, bros. It's about as hard as clicking "F". what? splitting is as hard as casting fungal? are you serious? >_> please do your homework before you say things like that | ||
|
gosublade
632 Posts
| ||
|
one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On August 31 2012 08:56 gosublade wrote: I might consider taking your thread seriously avilo, but not mentioning ghosts even once shows how clueless you are The thread is specifically about the suggested raven buff and its implications, not the ghost. The ghost might have its uses anyways though, and as far as I know from occasionally watching avilo stream he uses ghosts in the lategame to deal with infestors. It sounds to me like you were just looking for any reason to dismiss the thread. | ||
|
Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
| ||
|
Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On August 31 2012 03:35 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: after watching some recent high level play, i don't think Terran is UP, it just took some time for them to adapt. Terran needs to play more adaptive now (scout+macro), you can't do blind timing push builds any more. Also you need to take more risks early game. A lot of complaints here sound like beginner zergs complaints about 'unscoutable' all-ins You can't be serious. Terran has adapted far more than any other race since the beginning of WoL. This isn't up for debate. T has been nerfed and changed far more than the other two races combined, so don't go on about "Oh T needs to actually adapt and work now". That's complete BS. | ||
|
lightertripod
United Kingdom44 Posts
the issue with TvZ is not a balance issue its a differculty issue at the highest level its a balanced match up but as the skill level falls the balance moves more in the directions of the zerg this is the reaons the likes of Teaja and MVP still doing well in the match up I would be more worried about the state of TvP intresting question how many pro's offrace Terran I watch lot of streams where Terrans offrace zerg and do very well and the odd one that offrace toss but I cannot remember anyone for some time offracing Terran (TLO did a little before he went to korean when warming up but he played Terran for long time anyway) | ||
| ||
