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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On September 01 2012 02:14 pimsc2 wrote:
It would be absolutely possible to "balance" the game in a way that bad controls equal bad outcome no matter what. They should make zergs & protoss harder to control. It wouldn't change anything at the pro level, because pro players have amazing controls, but at lower levels, it's clearly not the case, you know terrans have to work a lot harder than just macroing if they want to win. The racial distribution among higher leagues (diamond & higher) speak for itself : It's like 20% terran, 35% zerg, 35% protoss, 10% random… But Blizzard preferred balancing the opposite way in the future HOTS, offering an easier to control army for terrans… It's just a terrible way of designing the game.
My macro is not flawless but I reach all the standards timing (53 vcs at 10:00, etc) and I love orbital farms lategame. In replays, my late game production is not that far with what I see from pro players : it's like 12 marines - 2 marauders - 2 medivacs - 2 tanks at a time. It's at least on par with players of my levels, if not better. I just should lose against better players, and win against worst. Since the patch, it's not the longer the case. The balance was much better a few months ago, where good zergs were really impressive, denied all early pressure, the mid game drops and deserved their win. The other ones deserved to lose because of their poor scouting, guessing, and multitasking. Now they can scout with overlords, have 6 queens for early defense, and rush T3 without being too annoyed.
I'm really not sure how you expect blizzard to balance at lower level when you have absolutely no indication if the reason people lose there is because of balance or because they lack something in their gameplay, what you are asking of blizzard is impossible...
you say you play for fun, if you don't have fun playing terran anymore, then just switch race? why should it matter to you, you don't play competitively
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Fayth, I'm sorry but you're Protoss. You probably don't understand why we love to play terran. Because of the glass cannon style. Because of the required multitasking. Because of the constant attention to our units. Because of the only unit microable like broodwar : the marine. Because of the planification of our play. We can't warp 10 templars. We can't get 10 ravens instantly to sink our gas and get a huge AOE boost. We can't warp if we didn't expected an agression in our main. We have to prepare for everything. Our barracks requires us to queue at least one unit each which means money sleeping instead of improving my eco / upgrades / production. This style of thinking, the need to prepare each detail, is a huge part of why we love to play Terran. And finally, also because of the constant agression required. I don't want to switch race because I don't want to sit 20 min defending, waiting to reach tiers 3 to move out and try things. Because I feel these races are poorly designed compared to terran. You can even see it at the beginning. There isn't any wait in the terran build orders at the beginning, while protoss & zerg have to wait their pylon / overlords. You can see how Blizzard started to work with the terran race, and the^n added the two others. That's why I loved my race. It's the more rewarding to play in my opinion, but also the more frustrating to master. Starcraft is not my job but it's my passion. I have almost 2000 games, it's quite a commitment if you think of it.
Yes my play is not flawless, but my opponents plays aren't perfect too. Therefore it should be equally punitive for each race. You know it's not the case right now, until HOTS - which fixes the issue in the worst way possible - smoothing everything toward easiness.
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On September 01 2012 02:22 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 02:14 pimsc2 wrote:
It would be absolutely possible to "balance" the game in a way that bad controls equal bad outcome no matter what. They should make zergs & protoss harder to control. It wouldn't change anything at the pro level, because pro players have amazing controls, but at lower levels, it's clearly not the case, you know terrans have to work a lot harder than just macroing if they want to win. The racial distribution among higher leagues (diamond & higher) speak for itself : It's like 20% terran, 35% zerg, 35% protoss, 10% random… But Blizzard preferred balancing the opposite way in the future HOTS, offering an easier to control army for terrans… It's just a terrible way of designing the game.
My macro is not flawless but I reach all the standards timing (53 vcs at 10:00, etc) and I love orbital farms lategame. In replays, my late game production is not that far with what I see from pro players : it's like 12 marines - 2 marauders - 2 medivacs - 2 tanks at a time. It's at least on par with players of my levels, if not better. I just should lose against better players, and win against worst. Since the patch, it's not the longer the case. The balance was much better a few months ago, where good zergs were really impressive, denied all early pressure, the mid game drops and deserved their win. The other ones deserved to lose because of their poor scouting, guessing, and multitasking. Now they can scout with overlords, have 6 queens for early defense, and rush T3 without being too annoyed. I'm really not sure how you expect blizzard to balance at lower level when you have absolutely no indication if the reason people lose there is because of balance or because they lack something in their gameplay, what you are asking of blizzard is impossible... you say you play for fun, if you don't have fun playing terran anymore, then just switch race? why should it matter to you, you don't play competitively
because zerg and protoss are incredibly boring to play. I'd rather lose as Terran than win as Zerg/Protoss.
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I played terran for like 6 months before i switched to P, cuz i found Terran incredibly boring to play
also it seems no matter what I say you will never give up on thinking it's possible to balance at ur level, it is not, deal with it
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On September 01 2012 02:45 ROOTFayth wrote:
I played terran for like 6 months before i switched to P, cuz i found Terran incredibly boring to play
also it seems no matter what I say you will never give up on thinking it's possible to balance at ur level, it is not, deal with it
don't buff terran, make protoss and zerg more mechanically demanding
there, it's more balanced.
it shouldn't affect the pros cause they should have good enough mechanics. and will affect everyone else on the lower leagues.
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Exactly this.
And instead they're doing the opposite in HOTS…
Anyway this thread can be closed.
There won't be any raven buff.
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and how the fuck do you suggest you make other races more mechanically demanding
this is pretty fucking mission impossible
oh and for ur info, it's a lot harder for protoss to defend multi pronged attack by terran than it is to execute them with terran, yet you don't see protoss whining about that
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On September 01 2012 03:17 ROOTFayth wrote:
and how the fuck do you suggest you make other races more mechanically demanding
this is pretty fucking mission impossible
you'd probably have to do it in HoTS realistically but units that aren't just a move pieces of crap (looking at you warhound) would be a start
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On September 01 2012 03:17 ROOTFayth wrote:
and how the fuck do you suggest you make other races more mechanically demanding
this is pretty fucking mission impossible
Not if you aren't an idiot.
HOTS introduces opportunities for blizzard to make it more difficult. Here's a simple idea: lower inject larva count to 3, lower the time it takes to pop an inject. More injects, more skill.
Fayth, you're unsuccessful because you're bad. Your race gives you advantages over Terrans who practice the same amount as you do. Shouldn't you try to get good instead of hoping that Terran stays more difficult?
User was warned for this post
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On September 01 2012 03:19 DebtSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:17 ROOTFayth wrote:
and how the fuck do you suggest you make other races more mechanically demanding
this is pretty fucking mission impossible Not if you aren't an idiot. HOTS introduces opportunities for blizzard to make it more difficult. Here's a simple idea: lower inject larva count to 3, lower the time it takes to pop an inject. More injects, more skill. Fayth, you're unsuccessful because you're bad. Your race gives you advantages over Terrans who practice the same amount as you do. Shouldn't you try to get good instead of hoping that Terran stays more difficult?
I'm unsuccessful because I'm inactive... I was among top foreigners in bw when I played and went on in poker to get pretty massive success for a reason
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Canada13410 Posts
On September 01 2012 03:19 DebtSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:17 ROOTFayth wrote:
and how the fuck do you suggest you make other races more mechanically demanding
this is pretty fucking mission impossible Not if you aren't an idiot. HOTS introduces opportunities for blizzard to make it more difficult. Here's a simple idea: lower inject larva count to 3, lower the time it takes to pop an inject. More injects, more skill. Fayth, you're unsuccessful because you're bad. Your race gives you advantages over Terrans who practice the same amount as you do. Shouldn't you try to get good instead of hoping that Terran stays more difficult?
I believe Fayth isn't a player on ROOT in the same way the other people are, he does more management related stuff I believe. [Edit: this seems incorrect he now plays poker]
Also, if inject larva created less larva certain all ins that are already difficult to hold would become impossible, especially in the early game.
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On September 01 2012 03:24 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:19 DebtSC2 wrote:On September 01 2012 03:17 ROOTFayth wrote:
and how the fuck do you suggest you make other races more mechanically demanding
this is pretty fucking mission impossible Not if you aren't an idiot. HOTS introduces opportunities for blizzard to make it more difficult. Here's a simple idea: lower inject larva count to 3, lower the time it takes to pop an inject. More injects, more skill. Fayth, you're unsuccessful because you're bad. Your race gives you advantages over Terrans who practice the same amount as you do. Shouldn't you try to get good instead of hoping that Terran stays more difficult? I believe Fayth isn't a player on ROOT in the same way the other people are, he does more management related stuff I believe. [Edit: this seems incorrect he now plays poker] Also, if inject larva created less larva certain all ins that are already difficult to hold would become impossible, especially in the early game.
That doesn't mean there aren't ways to make it more challenging for the other races. It's very doable when the whole game is undergoing a giant balance reset and a long period of tuning. You'd have to be a moron to think its impossible to increase the skillcap for the races.
Ideas I or anyone else just farts out on teamliquid aren't going to work without alot more thought and time put into them. It's Blizzard's job not to fart out dumb ideas but instead design the game with an overall goal in mind, and I think that goal should be to increase the skillcap overall, and bring the skillcap gap between Terran vs Zerg/Protoss closer.
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well pardon me I thought we were talking about wings of liberty here .....
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On September 01 2012 03:01 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 02:45 ROOTFayth wrote:
I played terran for like 6 months before i switched to P, cuz i found Terran incredibly boring to play
also it seems no matter what I say you will never give up on thinking it's possible to balance at ur level, it is not, deal with it don't buff terran, make protoss and zerg more mechanically demanding there, it's more balanced. it shouldn't affect the pros cause they should have good enough mechanics. and will affect everyone else on the lower leagues.
i dont mind the idea of making zerg/protoss more mechanically diff but then ur gonna have to make zerg macro easier. guess why terran is able to micro their army like crazy, because ur macro is ez as shit. why u think zerg have higher APM but their army control blows? cus sometimes getting all our injects is more important than perfect army control. thats why u see lotta pros jus put all infestors and everything into one group. yeah i put my infestors in a separate hotkey and micro them like a beast and dont lose them after i fungal but i dont inject as well and end up with 2k. was it worth the army micro?
why u think zergs sometimes just move command past an army? cus they are off macroing. terran is ez macro but hard army micro, zerg is the opposite. u want blizzard to design zerg to be more like terran? than this game will be balanced but boring. every race is diff just stop the whining god.
raven speed doesnt fix the problem in TvZ? yeah cus it doesnt fix the problem that u suck. if u dont like having to outmicro ur opponents then switch to Z/P and prepare to have fun a-moving ur army but dedicating APM to macro. if u want to respond with "i dont want empty wins with an OP race" then quit the game cus ull just whine about anything.
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On September 01 2012 03:28 ROOTFayth wrote:
well pardon me I thought we were talking about wings of liberty here .....
It could also be done in WoL, but with the timeframe between now and HotS it doesn't make a lot of sense. If that was the point you were trying to make, that was my mistake for misinterpreting.
Also I shouldn't have included an asinine personal attack in all of that, I just went through a terrible mess of traffic that put me in a bad mood. Good news is the only thing it accomplished was making me look stupid.
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On September 01 2012 03:30 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:01 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 02:45 ROOTFayth wrote:
I played terran for like 6 months before i switched to P, cuz i found Terran incredibly boring to play
also it seems no matter what I say you will never give up on thinking it's possible to balance at ur level, it is not, deal with it don't buff terran, make protoss and zerg more mechanically demanding there, it's more balanced. it shouldn't affect the pros cause they should have good enough mechanics. and will affect everyone else on the lower leagues. i dont mind the idea of making zerg/protoss more mechanically diff but then ur gonna have to make zerg macro easier. guess why terran is able to micro their army like crazy, because ur macro is ez as shit. why u think zerg have higher APM but their army control blows? cus sometimes getting all our injects is more important than perfect army control. thats why u see lotta pros jus put all infestors and everything into one group. yeah i put my infestors in a separate hotkey and micro them like a beast and dont lose them after i fungal but i dont inject as well and end up with 2k. was it worth the army micro? why u think zergs sometimes just move command past an army? cus they are off macroing. terran is ez macro but hard army micro, zerg is the opposite. u want blizzard to design zerg to be more like terran? than this game will be balanced but boring. every race is diff just stop the whining god. raven speed doesnt fix the problem in TvZ? yeah cus it doesnt fix the problem that u suck. if u dont like having to outmicro ur opponents then switch to Z/P and prepare to have fun a-moving ur army but dedicating APM to macro. if u want to respond with "i dont want empty wins with an OP race" then quit the game cus ull just whine about anything.
zerg macro isn't harder, it's different. it's pretty easy to get a rhythm going, and it's not nearly the end of the world if you miss 1-2 injects during a battle. it is if you've been missing them all game though
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On September 01 2012 03:30 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:01 Chaggi wrote:On September 01 2012 02:45 ROOTFayth wrote:
I played terran for like 6 months before i switched to P, cuz i found Terran incredibly boring to play
also it seems no matter what I say you will never give up on thinking it's possible to balance at ur level, it is not, deal with it don't buff terran, make protoss and zerg more mechanically demanding there, it's more balanced. it shouldn't affect the pros cause they should have good enough mechanics. and will affect everyone else on the lower leagues. i dont mind the idea of making zerg/protoss more mechanically diff but then ur gonna have to make zerg macro easier. guess why terran is able to micro their army like crazy, because ur macro is ez as shit. why u think zerg have higher APM but their army control blows? cus sometimes getting all our injects is more important than perfect army control. thats why u see lotta pros jus put all infestors and everything into one group. yeah i put my infestors in a separate hotkey and micro them like a beast and dont lose them after i fungal but i dont inject as well and end up with 2k. was it worth the army micro? why u think zergs sometimes just move command past an army? cus they are off macroing. terran is ez macro but hard army micro, zerg is the opposite. u want blizzard to design zerg to be more like terran? than this game will be balanced but boring. every race is diff just stop the whining god. raven speed doesnt fix the problem in TvZ? yeah cus it doesnt fix the problem that u suck. if u dont like having to outmicro ur opponents then switch to Z/P and prepare to have fun a-moving ur army but dedicating APM to macro. if u want to respond with "i dont want empty wins with an OP race" then quit the game cus ull just whine about anything.
I don't agree that Z macro is harder than T. Injects are very easy with just a little bit of practice, creep spread takes a bit more practice but also isn't particularly hard. You have to remember that while Z has lots of injects and creep spread, T has far more buildings to make and when they decide to make them has a tremendous impact throughout the rest of the game. Terran also has production cycles they can miss that won't come back, much like zerg has injects they can miss that won't come back.
I also play Z and P at a master level, and I can tell you that it is much easier than playing T.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On September 01 2012 02:42 pimsc2 wrote:
Fayth, I'm sorry but you're Protoss. You probably don't understand why we love to play terran. Because of the glass cannon style. Because of the required multitasking. Because of the constant attention to our units. Because of the only unit microable like broodwar : the marine. Because of the planification of our play. We can't warp 10 templars. We can't get 10 ravens instantly to sink our gas and get a huge AOE boost. We can't warp if we didn't expected an agression in our main. We have to prepare for everything. Our barracks requires us to queue at least one unit each which means money sleeping instead of improving my eco / upgrades / production. This style of thinking, the need to prepare each detail, is a huge part of why we love to play Terran. And finally, also because of the constant agression required. I don't want to switch race because I don't want to sit 20 min defending, waiting to reach tiers 3 to move out and try things. Because I feel these races are poorly designed compared to terran. You can even see it at the beginning. There isn't any wait in the terran build orders at the beginning, while protoss & zerg have to wait their pylon / overlords. You can see how Blizzard started to work with the terran race, and the^n added the two others. That's why I loved my race. It's the more rewarding to play in my opinion, but also the more frustrating to master. Starcraft is not my job but it's my passion. I have almost 2000 games, it's quite a commitment if you think of it.
Yes my play is not flawless, but my opponents plays aren't perfect too. Therefore it should be equally punitive for each race. You know it's not the case right now, until HOTS - which fixes the issue in the worst way possible - smoothing everything toward easiness.
this post is amazing ^>^
Seems that Bliz didn't see the need for the raven buff at all, which imo is a shame not for balance reasons but because faster and snappy ravens would have been cool, cause ravens are cool.
 Big J woooohhh!!!! All LR spam, I'm tricking people into thinking I'm some kind of forum vet when I'm just a chobo. 8888 does look cool though.
Goddamit, thats such a good idea every time I post now I'm gonna feel bad for what a glorious thing it could have been.
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MCDayC: 8888 posts... Just thought I had to post that
Yeah it looks amazing. Would be cool if they turned you into a mad now, that you could edit other people's posts instead of ever posting again and therefore staying on 8888 forever!
If I ever reach that magic number, I guess I have to PM someone that I can become such a "mod".
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On September 01 2012 02:42 pimsc2 wrote:
Fayth, I'm sorry but you're Protoss. You probably don't understand why we love to play terran. Because of the glass cannon style. Because of the required multitasking. Because of the constant attention to our units. Because of the only unit microable like broodwar : the marine. Because of the planification of our play. We can't warp 10 templars. We can't get 10 ravens instantly to sink our gas and get a huge AOE boost. We can't warp if we didn't expected an agression in our main.
Templar don't get to Storm instantly. They're also the hardest caster to micro because they're the slowest and by far the most vulnerable. Honestly this tirade is near useless, because I can easily spout off Terran-specific advantages, like losing your entire army and still staying in the game, something Protoss can't enjoy, enjoying a higher mineral income by default, having much better air options, having a unitless detector, denying worker scout earlier, etc. Can't look at the little details. Have to look at how they interact.
Terran isn't really that much harder, otherwise it wouldn't've been so easy for the majority of the pros to Terran dominate the first year and a half. Nothing's mechanically changed since beta really, so Terran have always been as "hard" as they've always been. What has changed is the relative potency of different builds by nerfs and buffs, and Terran have always needed aggression toward Zerg to keep them in check.
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EPT
