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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On September 01 2012 05:16 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 02:42 pimsc2 wrote:
Fayth, I'm sorry but you're Protoss. You probably don't understand why we love to play terran. Because of the glass cannon style. Because of the required multitasking. Because of the constant attention to our units. Because of the only unit microable like broodwar : the marine. Because of the planification of our play. We can't warp 10 templars. We can't get 10 ravens instantly to sink our gas and get a huge AOE boost. We can't warp if we didn't expected an agression in our main. Templar don't get to Storm instantly. They're also the hardest caster to micro because they're the slowest and by far the most vulnerable. Honestly this tirade is near useless, because I can easily spout off Terran-specific advantages, like losing your entire army and still staying in the game, something Protoss can't enjoy, enjoying a higher mineral income by default, having much better air options, having a unitless detector, denying worker scout earlier, etc. Can't look at the little details. Have to look at how they interact. Terran isn't really that much harder, otherwise it wouldn't've been so easy for the majority of the pros to Terran dominate the first year and a half. Nothing's mechanically changed since beta really, so Terran have always been as "hard" as they've always been. What has changed is the relative potency of different builds by nerfs and buffs, and Terran have always needed aggression toward Zerg to keep them in check.
Quite you, you can't talk about stuff that terran has that makes their life easier(auto cast on medivacs, stim for two units on one button, marines build out of reactored raxes first). And we all know that storm is easy to use, just like fungle. EMP is the hardest of all the spells to use, because it is on the ghost and that is a terran unit :-P
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Templar do need to wait, but they also come at the beginning of the production cycle instead of at the end of it, and have Feedback and Archon Warp ready, so not really the same thing as Ravens requiring ten million researches, coming out of a very expensive production facility and THEN having to wait for their marquee spell. The Raven's 2.25 vs. what miserable thing Templar have (1.875 I guess?) is valid, but the atrocious range on HSM should more than counteract that.
Some context for the "lose army - still stay in the game" thing? That's believeable with losing SCVs due to MULEs, but how is T able to stay ingame after losing their whole army and toss isn't with a 16+ Zealot warp-in (in the late game at least)? Seems mysterious. So, context context context please.
Toss air is indeed bad, though Terran air isn't exactly stellar either. Not in the way Zerg air just feels solid, for example. But Sky Terran does work somewhat and Banshee harass is good, so I guess it's still better than what Toss get.
Scan is admittedly good, but I'd rather have Obs myself.
To the actual points, the game HAS changed very dramatically from the beginning, most especially due to map changes and the game just becoming more and more figured out and play becoming more refined overall. The early life of the game was very rough, and extremely small-scale compared to the massive, sprawling matches that are played nowadays. Of course Terran was stupidly easy to play when they were much stronger, the maps were idiotically small and otherwise Terran-favoured (rocks, Thor drop cliffs and so on...). So you have a strong faction, very favourable maps, and opponents whose faction was generally weaker and in some ways very flawed (3 range Roaches XD) who don't know how to defend anywhere near as well as people can nowadays. That you win easily is just a logical conclusion from that.
Nowadays Terran has been nerfed to hell and back, other races have had flaws fixed, some ridiculous unnecessary buffs (Queen range...) given, people know how to defend and cut corners properly, the maps are much, much bigger and thus natural, design-derived Terran weaknesses like inflexible and expensive lategame production shine more and more. On the small maps where Terran's ability to get a little bit of anything very fast shines, it's a very different kind of game that gets played.
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If the problem of reducing HSM cost to 100 is the fact that spamming 2 in a row from a single raven is considered overpowered, couldn't they just reduce the energy cost AND put a cooldown on it?
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Raven change only effect highest level but even at that it hardly change anything.For problem lies at late game compotisition,terran need an effective way to deal with Zerg air.There are many useless upgrades that still in the game so i think of some change:
Terran:- 250mm strike canon now only hit air,range 10,125 energy,AOE damage 50 per sec over 10 second,random target in the area(that mean only one targer can be damage at a time) deploy immediately.IT will allow mech to be viable vs toss with thor now no longer couter immotar but can take down collosus and deplete their energy,help Viking fight againts BL,corruptor
Optional:What if the energy upgrades for medivac and BC change into speed upgrades but put it in the fusioncore that incres speed 0.25 or 0.5?
-HSM change into nanobot pack,cost 75 energy,fire a fast missile (3.0) that if target enemy unit it will work like inddirate that deal 20 damage over 4 sec but if target your own mechanical unit it will continue repair that unit 10hp/sec at 10sec,Upgradeable with Durable material to 6 and 15sec
Protoss:give DT void prison at the campain,reseach at Dark Shrie,cost 125 energy,lock down bio unit for 6 sec so protoss will have a way to deal with BL,Infestor without that gimmi MotherShip
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I really don't think blizzard care about the matchup - its so broken at my level (high master) and as a terran i hardly want to queue ladder anymore because its just endless tvz and endless losses vs terrible zergs who just spam infestor..
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On September 05 2012 04:58 2v2TLRSimba wrote:
I really don't think blizzard care about the matchup - its so broken at my level (high master) and as a terran i hardly want to queue ladder anymore because its just endless tvz and endless losses vs terrible zergs who just spam infestor..
Then Make ghosts and laugh at infestors with no energy. 
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Love how all the zergs deny the obvious imbalance just cuz the OP's name is avilo...
still funny lol...
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Either way blizzard reconsidered their thoughts about buffing raven + tumor nerf. This should be closed now since the changes wont occur anyways.
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On September 05 2012 09:34 OpTiKDream wrote:
Either way blizzard reconsidered their thoughts about buffing raven + tumor nerf. This should be closed now since the changes wont occur anyways.
Ya all this thread is now is a QQ thread and I do agree changes aren't happening anymore, and hots beta is going to be out soon anyway.
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On September 05 2012 09:36 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 09:34 OpTiKDream wrote:
Either way blizzard reconsidered their thoughts about buffing raven + tumor nerf. This should be closed now since the changes wont occur anyways. Ya all this thread is now is a QQ thread and I do agree changes aren't happening anymore, and hots beta is going to be out soon anyway.
If this is closed, there will be another QQ thread. Like there was one before this (Luckyfool), and 1 before that (1 month later), and 1 before that (where did all the terrans go), etc.
Let's face it, non Mvp/Taeja terrans are pretty unhappy about the status quo (unless they switched to Z like me and have fun mucking about like mad).
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Raven buffs are still under discussion and Raven vs Fungal growth is still an issue.
Now also in HOTS, using ravens to detect swarmhosts adds to the topic.
Raven view range is 11.
Fungal growth range is 9. Fungral radius is 2.
As soon as a raven is forced to operate above creep, it is visible to zerg. Then zerg can minimap fungal the raven without getting spotted and without giving the terran a chance to micro the raven away. 9 + 2 = 11 -> fungal hits the raven with 0 reaction time for terran.
So my proposal for Raven buff would be to increase raven view range to something like 13 or even more.
I would also suggest to fix the energy problem of raven and to increase infestor cost. Infestor > raven and cheaper. Why that?
Happy smashing of my contribution Cheers
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On September 01 2012 03:17 ROOTFayth wrote:
and how the fuck do you suggest you make other races more mechanically demanding
this is pretty fucking mission impossible
oh and for ur info, it's a lot harder for protoss to defend multi pronged attack by terran than it is to execute them with terran, yet you don't see protoss whining about that
are warp ins not enough for you? Zealots with charge win every a-move battle easily, so I don't see the point where this should be harder for protoss. BTW: it's much harder to defend multi pronged zealot harassment, than to execute it. Because sending zealots with move into shift a-move is not really demanding.
If you have trouble with multi pronged attacks as protoss, you should definately focus on your play, since you got the best tools in the game to defend it.
On November 23 2012 22:36 RuffianEO wrote:Raven buffs are still under discussion and Raven vs Fungal growth is still an issue. Now also in HOTS, using ravens to detect swarmhosts adds to the topic. Raven view range is 11. Fungal growth range is 9. Fungral radius is 2. As soon as a raven is forced to operate above creep, it is visible to zerg. Then zerg can minimap fungal the raven without getting spotted and without giving the terran a chance to micro the raven away. 9 + 2 = 11 -> fungal hits the raven with 0 reaction time for terran. So my proposal for Raven buff would be to increase raven view range to something like 13 or even more. I would also suggest to fix the energy problem of raven and to increase infestor cost. Infestor > raven and cheaper. Why that? Happy smashing of my contribution Cheers
Buffing the vision range is a great idea. Because that really is the problem with fungal in that matchup. You have sometimes little chances to see it coming. good point!
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On September 05 2012 18:05 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 09:36 blade55555 wrote:On September 05 2012 09:34 OpTiKDream wrote:
Either way blizzard reconsidered their thoughts about buffing raven + tumor nerf. This should be closed now since the changes wont occur anyways. Ya all this thread is now is a QQ thread and I do agree changes aren't happening anymore, and hots beta is going to be out soon anyway. If this is closed, there will be another QQ thread. Like there was one before this (Luckyfool), and 1 before that (1 month later), and 1 before that (where did all the terrans go), etc. Let's face it, non Mvp/Taeja terrans are pretty unhappy about the status quo (unless they switched to Z like me and have fun mucking about like mad).
Of all the arguments ever made about terran being underpowered and hard to use this has to be the most common and frankly nonsensical one of the lot. Terran have always had the most variety of players performing well at the top level. Even right now at the height of all these discussions about terran being terrible they have the best representation in both code S and code A (though admittedly performed slightly worse than zerg overall in code S).
If anything zerg and protoss are the ones who have historically relied on a handful of players to hold the race up. Hell take out MC and protoss in WOL is a sad, sad state of affairs.
Anyway i've just switched to terran after having played zerg and protoss and so far i'm having a great time. I'm still a high diamond/low masters player. I guess i just haven't reached the 1-2% of players where terran are struggling (they are fine diamond and below and they are fine in Korea, the only place they apparently struggle is in high masters and GM outside of Korea).
This issue has been massively overblown and that's why the balance discussion has gotten so muddied. If anything the focus should just be on changing things that make the game less interesting like fungal growth stopping units. Instead people just want to whinge about imbalance.
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I think it's too soon to know how deeply the change will affect TvZ late game. Let people get used to the change and adapt their plans accordingly, then we will see.
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Ravens are fine in terms of range. No unit should single handed counter all of Z air. Ravens blow up corruptors while vikings go to town on broodlords. Infestors meet fungal-immune-ghost snipes. Overseers? Sac vikings, maybe blow a few PDDs. Basically, a more complex gameplay.
The problem seems to be energy. Which for now, means to delay Zerg, and/or build ravens muuuch earlier for a) detection b) pdd? and c) in antici.............................................................pation!
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On November 23 2012 22:49 ElBlanco wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 18:05 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 05 2012 09:36 blade55555 wrote:On September 05 2012 09:34 OpTiKDream wrote:
Either way blizzard reconsidered their thoughts about buffing raven + tumor nerf. This should be closed now since the changes wont occur anyways. Ya all this thread is now is a QQ thread and I do agree changes aren't happening anymore, and hots beta is going to be out soon anyway. If this is closed, there will be another QQ thread. Like there was one before this (Luckyfool), and 1 before that (1 month later), and 1 before that (where did all the terrans go), etc. Let's face it, non Mvp/Taeja terrans are pretty unhappy about the status quo (unless they switched to Z like me and have fun mucking about like mad). Of all the arguments ever made about terran being underpowered and hard to use this has to be the most common and frankly nonsensical one of the lot. Terran have always had the most variety of players performing well at the top level. Even right now at the height of all these discussions about terran being terrible they have the best representation in both code S and code A (though admittedly performed slightly worse than zerg overall in code S). If anything zerg and protoss are the ones who have historically relied on a handful of players to hold the race up. Hell take out MC and protoss in WOL is a sad, sad state of affairs. Anyway i've just switched to terran after having played zerg and protoss and so far i'm having a great time. I'm still a high diamond/low masters player. I guess i just haven't reached the 1-2% of players where terran are struggling (they are fine diamond and below and they are fine in Korea, the only place they apparently struggle is in high masters and GM outside of Korea). This issue has been massively overblown and that's why the balance discussion has gotten so muddied. If anything the focus should just be on changing things that make the game less interesting like fungal growth stopping units. Instead people just want to whinge about imbalance.
Wait, you replied to me but I don't know which of my statements you so vehemently disagree with. Want to clarify? Did you mean that it's fun for you to play TvZ? Do tell me more about your experiences climbing the ladder.
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On November 23 2012 23:00 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 22:49 ElBlanco wrote:On September 05 2012 18:05 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 05 2012 09:36 blade55555 wrote:On September 05 2012 09:34 OpTiKDream wrote:
Either way blizzard reconsidered their thoughts about buffing raven + tumor nerf. This should be closed now since the changes wont occur anyways. Ya all this thread is now is a QQ thread and I do agree changes aren't happening anymore, and hots beta is going to be out soon anyway. If this is closed, there will be another QQ thread. Like there was one before this (Luckyfool), and 1 before that (1 month later), and 1 before that (where did all the terrans go), etc. Let's face it, non Mvp/Taeja terrans are pretty unhappy about the status quo (unless they switched to Z like me and have fun mucking about like mad). Of all the arguments ever made about terran being underpowered and hard to use this has to be the most common and frankly nonsensical one of the lot. Terran have always had the most variety of players performing well at the top level. Even right now at the height of all these discussions about terran being terrible they have the best representation in both code S and code A (though admittedly performed slightly worse than zerg overall in code S). If anything zerg and protoss are the ones who have historically relied on a handful of players to hold the race up. Hell take out MC and protoss in WOL is a sad, sad state of affairs. Anyway i've just switched to terran after having played zerg and protoss and so far i'm having a great time. I'm still a high diamond/low masters player. I guess i just haven't reached the 1-2% of players where terran are struggling (they are fine diamond and below and they are fine in Korea, the only place they apparently struggle is in high masters and GM outside of Korea). This issue has been massively overblown and that's why the balance discussion has gotten so muddied. If anything the focus should just be on changing things that make the game less interesting like fungal growth stopping units. Instead people just want to whinge about imbalance. Wait, you replied to me but I don't know which of my statements you so vehemently disagree with. Want to clarify? Did you mean that it's fun for you to play TvZ? Do tell me more about your experiences climbing the ladder.
A combative forum poster who assumes every quote is a vehement disagreement, replying to a hypocritical post about how Terran balance is overblown while overblowing Zerg and Protoss balance; especially by quoting "history". Urk, two wrong, blah blah.
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On November 23 2012 23:03 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 23:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On November 23 2012 22:49 ElBlanco wrote:On September 05 2012 18:05 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 05 2012 09:36 blade55555 wrote:On September 05 2012 09:34 OpTiKDream wrote:
Either way blizzard reconsidered their thoughts about buffing raven + tumor nerf. This should be closed now since the changes wont occur anyways. Ya all this thread is now is a QQ thread and I do agree changes aren't happening anymore, and hots beta is going to be out soon anyway. If this is closed, there will be another QQ thread. Like there was one before this (Luckyfool), and 1 before that (1 month later), and 1 before that (where did all the terrans go), etc. Let's face it, non Mvp/Taeja terrans are pretty unhappy about the status quo (unless they switched to Z like me and have fun mucking about like mad). Of all the arguments ever made about terran being underpowered and hard to use this has to be the most common and frankly nonsensical one of the lot. Terran have always had the most variety of players performing well at the top level. Even right now at the height of all these discussions about terran being terrible they have the best representation in both code S and code A (though admittedly performed slightly worse than zerg overall in code S). If anything zerg and protoss are the ones who have historically relied on a handful of players to hold the race up. Hell take out MC and protoss in WOL is a sad, sad state of affairs. Anyway i've just switched to terran after having played zerg and protoss and so far i'm having a great time. I'm still a high diamond/low masters player. I guess i just haven't reached the 1-2% of players where terran are struggling (they are fine diamond and below and they are fine in Korea, the only place they apparently struggle is in high masters and GM outside of Korea). This issue has been massively overblown and that's why the balance discussion has gotten so muddied. If anything the focus should just be on changing things that make the game less interesting like fungal growth stopping units. Instead people just want to whinge about imbalance. Wait, you replied to me but I don't know which of my statements you so vehemently disagree with. Want to clarify? Did you mean that it's fun for you to play TvZ? Do tell me more about your experiences climbing the ladder. A combative forum poster who assumes every quote is a vehement disagreement, replying to a hypocritical post about how Terran balance is overblown while overblowing Zerg and Protoss balance; especially by quoting "history". Urk, two wrong, blah blah.
Where have i overblown zerg and protoss balance? I don't think balance for any race is in a bad spot right now.
My post was mostly in reply to the Taeja/MVP comment which is more just a general sentiment i have been reading for months.
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On November 23 2012 23:24 ElBlanco wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 23:03 plogamer wrote:On November 23 2012 23:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On November 23 2012 22:49 ElBlanco wrote:On September 05 2012 18:05 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 05 2012 09:36 blade55555 wrote:On September 05 2012 09:34 OpTiKDream wrote:
Either way blizzard reconsidered their thoughts about buffing raven + tumor nerf. This should be closed now since the changes wont occur anyways. Ya all this thread is now is a QQ thread and I do agree changes aren't happening anymore, and hots beta is going to be out soon anyway. If this is closed, there will be another QQ thread. Like there was one before this (Luckyfool), and 1 before that (1 month later), and 1 before that (where did all the terrans go), etc. Let's face it, non Mvp/Taeja terrans are pretty unhappy about the status quo (unless they switched to Z like me and have fun mucking about like mad). Of all the arguments ever made about terran being underpowered and hard to use this has to be the most common and frankly nonsensical one of the lot. Terran have always had the most variety of players performing well at the top level. Even right now at the height of all these discussions about terran being terrible they have the best representation in both code S and code A (though admittedly performed slightly worse than zerg overall in code S). If anything zerg and protoss are the ones who have historically relied on a handful of players to hold the race up. Hell take out MC and protoss in WOL is a sad, sad state of affairs. Anyway i've just switched to terran after having played zerg and protoss and so far i'm having a great time. I'm still a high diamond/low masters player. I guess i just haven't reached the 1-2% of players where terran are struggling (they are fine diamond and below and they are fine in Korea, the only place they apparently struggle is in high masters and GM outside of Korea). This issue has been massively overblown and that's why the balance discussion has gotten so muddied. If anything the focus should just be on changing things that make the game less interesting like fungal growth stopping units. Instead people just want to whinge about imbalance. Wait, you replied to me but I don't know which of my statements you so vehemently disagree with. Want to clarify? Did you mean that it's fun for you to play TvZ? Do tell me more about your experiences climbing the ladder. A combative forum poster who assumes every quote is a vehement disagreement, replying to a hypocritical post about how Terran balance is overblown while overblowing Zerg and Protoss balance; especially by quoting "history". Urk, two wrong, blah blah. Where have i overblown zerg and protoss balance? I don't think balance for any race is in a bad spot right now. My post was mostly in reply to the Taeja/MVP comment which is more just a general sentiment i have been reading for months.
If anything zerg and protoss are the ones who have historically relied on a handful of players to hold the race up.
Add the fact that back then, even if Terran could be considered OP, the games were usually not as one-sided as they are now. Or do you deny that?
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On November 23 2012 23:52 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 23:24 ElBlanco wrote:On November 23 2012 23:03 plogamer wrote:On November 23 2012 23:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On November 23 2012 22:49 ElBlanco wrote:On September 05 2012 18:05 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 05 2012 09:36 blade55555 wrote:On September 05 2012 09:34 OpTiKDream wrote:
Either way blizzard reconsidered their thoughts about buffing raven + tumor nerf. This should be closed now since the changes wont occur anyways. Ya all this thread is now is a QQ thread and I do agree changes aren't happening anymore, and hots beta is going to be out soon anyway. If this is closed, there will be another QQ thread. Like there was one before this (Luckyfool), and 1 before that (1 month later), and 1 before that (where did all the terrans go), etc. Let's face it, non Mvp/Taeja terrans are pretty unhappy about the status quo (unless they switched to Z like me and have fun mucking about like mad). Of all the arguments ever made about terran being underpowered and hard to use this has to be the most common and frankly nonsensical one of the lot. Terran have always had the most variety of players performing well at the top level. Even right now at the height of all these discussions about terran being terrible they have the best representation in both code S and code A (though admittedly performed slightly worse than zerg overall in code S). If anything zerg and protoss are the ones who have historically relied on a handful of players to hold the race up. Hell take out MC and protoss in WOL is a sad, sad state of affairs. Anyway i've just switched to terran after having played zerg and protoss and so far i'm having a great time. I'm still a high diamond/low masters player. I guess i just haven't reached the 1-2% of players where terran are struggling (they are fine diamond and below and they are fine in Korea, the only place they apparently struggle is in high masters and GM outside of Korea). This issue has been massively overblown and that's why the balance discussion has gotten so muddied. If anything the focus should just be on changing things that make the game less interesting like fungal growth stopping units. Instead people just want to whinge about imbalance. Wait, you replied to me but I don't know which of my statements you so vehemently disagree with. Want to clarify? Did you mean that it's fun for you to play TvZ? Do tell me more about your experiences climbing the ladder. A combative forum poster who assumes every quote is a vehement disagreement, replying to a hypocritical post about how Terran balance is overblown while overblowing Zerg and Protoss balance; especially by quoting "history". Urk, two wrong, blah blah. Where have i overblown zerg and protoss balance? I don't think balance for any race is in a bad spot right now. My post was mostly in reply to the Taeja/MVP comment which is more just a general sentiment i have been reading for months. Show nested quote + If anything zerg and protoss are the ones who have historically relied on a handful of players to hold the race up. Add the fact that back then, even if Terran could be considered OP, the games were usually not as one-sided as they are now. Or do you deny that?
What i said there was 100% fact. Try this, go to the GSL page where they list the players who have come in the top 4 in the GSL. It's terran who has much more variety than the other 2 races. This isn't me saying they are overpowered, it just so happens that they are the players who performed well. I just don't understand where this argument came from that terran rely on only a few players to win (i.e taeja and MVP) when historically they are the race that has most bucked this trend.
I don't think the meta-game is one sided now at all so i'm not sure what exactly you're getting at. Terran is performing worse against zerg overall but there has been plenty of competitive games just as there was when terran was winning. I don't think balance is bad now at all. If anything the big issue is more the way certain matchups play out (namely PvZ) and certain units making the meta game a little bit stale.
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