[D] The raven buff does not address TvZ issues - Page 40

On August 23 2012 06:44 captainwaffles wrote:
1500 Masters T on NA, TvZ feels okay right now, I think maps matter more than anything at this point in time.

On August 23 2012 07:00 Scrubwave wrote:

MMA (among other people you might've heard of) said tvz is not fine but unfortunately I do not know his ladder points. We all know how good of an argument are ladder points.

On August 23 2012 04:24 Scrubwave wrote:

Maybe the reason they're shitting their pants is the very thought that they may actually have to micro a bit more. Can't have that.
Oh, fun fact, if you let 6 slow-ass ravens hsm your entire army then that means you have shit vision for a zerg and even shittier infestor control, because otherwise you'd be able to simply freeze ravens out of range of hsm and pick them off.

On August 23 2012 08:50 Sevenofnines wrote:
SC2 TvZ: A Brief History
-Zergs can't beat mech. Tank damage nerfed.
-Zergs can't beat mass Reapers. Reapers nerfed.
-Zergs can't handle 2 rax pressure. Raxes now require depot and build time increased.
-Zergs can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. Bunkers nerfed.
-Zergs still can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. All map sizes increased, close spawns removed from tourneys.
-Zergs can't take third base easily. All maps now have very easy thirds.
-Zergs can't handle Cloak Banshees. Spore Crawler burrow time reduced.
-Zergs can't handle Blue Flame Hellions. Blue Flame nerfed.
-Zergs still can't handle Blue Flame Hellions/Other early pressure. Queens buffed.
-Zergs can't handle Ghosts sniping everything down. Snipe nerfed.
-Zergs can't take fourth base easily. All maps now have relatively easier fourths.

Essentially, Zerg whining has changed almost everything in the matchup in their favor and they are still finding ways to lose. It isn't too hard to guess the next line there:

-Zergs can't handle Ravens/HSM. *Insert nerf here*

It's pretty telling that we have seen widespread usage of virtually every single Terran unit in a variety of different strategies in this matchup at the top level. I believe the only unit that hasn't seen really widespread usage is the Battlecruiser, although even that is becoming more common in the super super late game. Terrans have tried to take all of these nerfs in stride by migrating to different units and strategies (or by simply executing the old ones better), most of which get subsequently nerfed. We've come to the point where there aren't many remaining options for Terrans to even try. It's no wonder that the matchup has gotten stale.

Part of the blame can rightly be laid on Blizzard. They threw in balance changes a bit too quickly without letting Zergs try and innovate and get over any perceived imbalances. They made certain units way too powerful relative to others in the race (Infestor) and other units way too crappy (Hydras). However, the other part of the blame also rightly belongs to the Zerg players that were trying harder to get all of Terrans strategies nerfed instead of asking for more options for their own race, particularly in regards to the early game. It is worth noting that most of the nerfs on that list up there pertain to the early game. Hence, if Zerg early game had simply been buffed so that they could put out aggression (without it being all-in), most of those nerfs probably would not have even been needed.

Ultimately, it is the lack of available strategies for both sides that needs fixing. The Raven changes might help slightly in making them more viable, but at this point IMO the damage is already done. Zerg has no early game options and not much late game option either. Terran early game options were all nerfed into oblivion. Thus even if Ravens become the go-to choice it still means that the matchup has defaulted into a bunch of false choices. Suffice to say, it is a good thing that HOTS beta is coming soon. The matchup sorely needs a reboot.

On August 23 2012 08:50 Sevenofnines wrote:
SC2 TvZ: A Brief History
-Zergs can't beat mech. Tank damage nerfed.
-Zergs can't beat mass Reapers. Reapers nerfed.
-Zergs can't handle 2 rax pressure. Raxes now require depot and build time increased.
-Zergs can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. Bunkers nerfed.
-Zergs still can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. All map sizes increased, close spawns removed from tourneys.
-Zergs can't take third base easily. All maps now have very easy thirds.
-Zergs can't handle Cloak Banshees. Spore Crawler burrow time reduced.
-Zergs can't handle Blue Flame Hellions. Blue Flame nerfed.
-Zergs still can't handle Blue Flame Hellions/Other early pressure. Queens buffed.
-Zergs can't handle Ghosts sniping everything down. Snipe nerfed.
-Zergs can't take fourth base easily. All maps now have relatively easier fourths.

Essentially, Zerg whining has changed almost everything in the matchup in their favor and they are still finding ways to lose. It isn't too hard to guess the next line there:

-Zergs can't handle Ravens/HSM. *Insert nerf here*

On August 23 2012 09:21 xPabt wrote:


Terran just goes marine tank and then cries when they lose to "tier 3" units.

On August 19 2012 11:07 avilo wrote:
The queen buff (many dubb it the "queendralisk" nowadays)

On August 23 2012 10:04 Petninja wrote:
The easy answer is to make fungal growth not root units it hits. It's broken as fuck right now in all match-ups.

On August 23 2012 09:59 Masvidal wrote:

Can anyone substantiate this in any way, shape, or form? I've never heard of this, not even once.

On August 21 2012 19:33 Snowbear wrote:
Newsflash guys: terrans should split their vikings and marines against fungal, BUT don't you dare to say that zergs should split their corruptors and broodlords against HSM!! That's NOT possible!!!!! Zergs should be able to 1a themselves to victory! Terrans should split for their life!

On August 23 2012 09:59 Masvidal wrote:

Can anyone substantiate this in any way, shape, or form? I've never heard of this, not even once.

Beasty:After the recent patch Blizzard introduced new unit called Queendralisks which kills anything that terran has up to 10 minutes into game allowing zerg to get on 3 base and get 70-80 drones with no problem, which then allows zerg to get tier 3 units at 13-14 minute into game and most of the time terran is simply not being able to deal with it unless you manage to deal damage to zerg economy through defences of queendralisks. It's obviously possible for terran to win vs both P and Z, its just..really hard at this point.

What I would change is maybe give terran tier 3 units, nerf warpgate and make it only defensive ability so that protoss wouldnt be able to warp 30 zealots in middle of fights while attacking you and I would agree with new unit queendralisk staying in game as long as GGlord/ infestor composition would be nerfed.

On August 23 2012 14:12 ETisME wrote:

because zerg cannot snipe vikings and marines like how marines and vikings can pick off spreaded broodlords

On August 23 2012 14:16 ChristianS wrote:

Thread: [TAC3] Beastyqt on the All-Kill
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=348101




I personally find all these balance-related nicknames like queendralisks, GGlords, lolrines, etc. to be kind of unfortunate. They discourage reasoned discussion, and shift the tone of the conversation to more toward name-calling.

On August 23 2012 14:26 aksfjh wrote:

I think it's gotten to the point now where Terrans probably don't think their comments are being taken seriously anyways.