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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On August 23 2012 06:44 captainwaffles wrote: 1500 Masters T on NA, TvZ feels okay right now, I think maps matter more than anything at this point in time. 1200 NA Masters T, I completely agree. | ||
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Scrubwave
Poland1786 Posts
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On August 23 2012 07:00 Scrubwave wrote: MMA (among other people you might've heard of) said tvz is not fine but unfortunately I do not know his ladder points. We all know how good of an argument are ladder points. Ironically the starter of this thread Avilo only stands upon his ranking for status so in defacing our position as high masters players you are actually weakening Avilo's. Basically in the pro scene you will find players who believe it is imbalanced and players who believe it is balanced. Cite that resource though, I want to see MMA's comment on TvZ being imbalanced and his explanation as to why. Also we are not using our points to make any argument other than at High masters we can objectively say that we are experiencing no issues (or no more than usual in any matchup) and if that is the case, it is curious as to why lower league players (such as yourself) have these balance issues that we don't feel farther up. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On August 23 2012 04:24 Scrubwave wrote: Maybe the reason they're shitting their pants is the very thought that they may actually have to micro a bit more. Can't have that. Oh, fun fact, if you let 6 slow-ass ravens hsm your entire army then that means you have shit vision for a zerg and even shittier infestor control, because otherwise you'd be able to simply freeze ravens out of range of hsm and pick them off. All of this is true. I Don't know why there would be any need to "shit the pants", in op's words, if you can just root those units with repeat casts until they die. | ||
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Sevenofnines
United States167 Posts
-Zergs can't beat mech. Tank damage nerfed. -Zergs can't beat mass Reapers. Reapers nerfed. -Zergs can't handle 2 rax pressure. Raxes now require depot and build time increased. -Zergs can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. Bunkers nerfed. -Zergs still can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. All map sizes increased, close spawns removed from tourneys. -Zergs can't take third base easily. All maps now have very easy thirds. -Zergs can't handle Cloak Banshees. Spore Crawler burrow time reduced. -Zergs can't handle Blue Flame Hellions. Blue Flame nerfed. -Zergs still can't handle Blue Flame Hellions/Other early pressure. Queens buffed. -Zergs can't handle Ghosts sniping everything down. Snipe nerfed. -Zergs can't take fourth base easily. All maps now have relatively easier fourths. Essentially, Zerg whining has changed almost everything in the matchup in their favor and they are still finding ways to lose. It isn't too hard to guess the next line there: -Zergs can't handle Ravens/HSM. *Insert nerf here* It's pretty telling that we have seen widespread usage of virtually every single Terran unit in a variety of different strategies in this matchup at the top level. I believe the only unit that hasn't seen really widespread usage is the Battlecruiser, although even that is becoming more common in the super super late game. Terrans have tried to take all of these nerfs in stride by migrating to different units and strategies (or by simply executing the old ones better), most of which get subsequently nerfed. We've come to the point where there aren't many remaining options for Terrans to even try. It's no wonder that the matchup has gotten stale. Part of the blame can rightly be laid on Blizzard. They threw in balance changes a bit too quickly without letting Zergs try and innovate and get over any perceived imbalances. They made certain units way too powerful relative to others in the race (Infestor) and other units way too crappy (Hydras). However, the other part of the blame also rightly belongs to the Zerg players that were trying harder to get all of Terrans strategies nerfed instead of asking for more options for their own race, particularly in regards to the early game. It is worth noting that most of the nerfs on that list up there pertain to the early game. Hence, if Zerg early game had simply been buffed so that they could put out aggression (without it being all-in), most of those nerfs probably would not have even been needed. Ultimately, it is the lack of available strategies for both sides that needs fixing. The Raven changes might help slightly in making them more viable, but at this point IMO the damage is already done. Zerg has no early game options and not much late game option either. Terran early game options were all nerfed into oblivion. Thus even if Ravens become the go-to choice it still means that the matchup has defaulted into a bunch of false choices. Suffice to say, it is a good thing that HOTS beta is coming soon. The matchup sorely needs a reboot. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On August 23 2012 08:50 Sevenofnines wrote: SC2 TvZ: A Brief History -Zergs can't beat mech. Tank damage nerfed. -Zergs can't beat mass Reapers. Reapers nerfed. -Zergs can't handle 2 rax pressure. Raxes now require depot and build time increased. -Zergs can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. Bunkers nerfed. -Zergs still can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. All map sizes increased, close spawns removed from tourneys. -Zergs can't take third base easily. All maps now have very easy thirds. -Zergs can't handle Cloak Banshees. Spore Crawler burrow time reduced. -Zergs can't handle Blue Flame Hellions. Blue Flame nerfed. -Zergs still can't handle Blue Flame Hellions/Other early pressure. Queens buffed. -Zergs can't handle Ghosts sniping everything down. Snipe nerfed. -Zergs can't take fourth base easily. All maps now have relatively easier fourths. Essentially, Zerg whining has changed almost everything in the matchup in their favor and they are still finding ways to lose. It isn't too hard to guess the next line there: -Zergs can't handle Ravens/HSM. *Insert nerf here* It's pretty telling that we have seen widespread usage of virtually every single Terran unit in a variety of different strategies in this matchup at the top level. I believe the only unit that hasn't seen really widespread usage is the Battlecruiser, although even that is becoming more common in the super super late game. Terrans have tried to take all of these nerfs in stride by migrating to different units and strategies (or by simply executing the old ones better), most of which get subsequently nerfed. We've come to the point where there aren't many remaining options for Terrans to even try. It's no wonder that the matchup has gotten stale. Part of the blame can rightly be laid on Blizzard. They threw in balance changes a bit too quickly without letting Zergs try and innovate and get over any perceived imbalances. They made certain units way too powerful relative to others in the race (Infestor) and other units way too crappy (Hydras). However, the other part of the blame also rightly belongs to the Zerg players that were trying harder to get all of Terrans strategies nerfed instead of asking for more options for their own race, particularly in regards to the early game. It is worth noting that most of the nerfs on that list up there pertain to the early game. Hence, if Zerg early game had simply been buffed so that they could put out aggression (without it being all-in), most of those nerfs probably would not have even been needed. Ultimately, it is the lack of available strategies for both sides that needs fixing. The Raven changes might help slightly in making them more viable, but at this point IMO the damage is already done. Zerg has no early game options and not much late game option either. Terran early game options were all nerfed into oblivion. Thus even if Ravens become the go-to choice it still means that the matchup has defaulted into a bunch of false choices. Suffice to say, it is a good thing that HOTS beta is coming soon. The matchup sorely needs a reboot. You also left out the Medivac speed nerf and the Thor nerf. | ||
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xPabt
226 Posts
On August 23 2012 08:50 Sevenofnines wrote: SC2 TvZ: A Brief History -Zergs can't beat mech. Tank damage nerfed. -Zergs can't beat mass Reapers. Reapers nerfed. -Zergs can't handle 2 rax pressure. Raxes now require depot and build time increased. -Zergs can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. Bunkers nerfed. -Zergs still can't handle 2 Rax + Bunkers. All map sizes increased, close spawns removed from tourneys. -Zergs can't take third base easily. All maps now have very easy thirds. -Zergs can't handle Cloak Banshees. Spore Crawler burrow time reduced. -Zergs can't handle Blue Flame Hellions. Blue Flame nerfed. -Zergs still can't handle Blue Flame Hellions/Other early pressure. Queens buffed. -Zergs can't handle Ghosts sniping everything down. Snipe nerfed. -Zergs can't take fourth base easily. All maps now have relatively easier fourths. Essentially, Zerg whining has changed almost everything in the matchup in their favor and they are still finding ways to lose. It isn't too hard to guess the next line there: -Zergs can't handle Ravens/HSM. *Insert nerf here* Terran just goes marine tank and then cries when they lose to "tier 3" units. | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On August 23 2012 09:21 xPabt wrote: Terran just goes marine tank and then cries when they lose to "tier 3" units. Actually Terran goes marines with stim/combat shield - tier 1.5; tanks - tier 2, medivacs - tier 2.5, vikings - tier 2.5, and mix in some thors late game - tier 3. The problem is more that zerg gets tier 3 by 17 minutes, terran can unlock their tier 3 at ~25 minutes because of production costs and race dynamics. The issue is never that they can't fight tier 3 with their low tier units, it's that they lose to tier 3 long before they have a chance to build their own high tier units to deal with the zerg tier 3 units. | ||
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Masvidal
Korea (South)213 Posts
On August 19 2012 11:07 avilo wrote: The queen buff (many dubb it the "queendralisk" nowadays) Can anyone substantiate this in any way, shape, or form? I've never heard of this, not even once. | ||
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Petninja
United States159 Posts
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On August 23 2012 10:04 Petninja wrote: The easy answer is to make fungal growth not root units it hits. It's broken as fuck right now in all match-ups. The issue with that is that even right now in PvZ a lot of the reason why Blink stalker allins fail off 2 base is because the Zerg can stun them with fungal, perhaps reducing it to "ensare" from BW and having it remove all applicable spells while ensared (like blink etc) would be nice but you can't just say "lets just make fungal growth do nothing" because that won't help. | ||
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Irave
United States9965 Posts
On August 23 2012 09:59 Masvidal wrote: Can anyone substantiate this in any way, shape, or form? I've never heard of this, not even once. Certain MC trademarked that saying in an interview. | ||
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ETisME
12685 Posts
On August 21 2012 19:33 Snowbear wrote: Newsflash guys: terrans should split their vikings and marines against fungal, BUT don't you dare to say that zergs should split their corruptors and broodlords against HSM!! That's NOT possible!!!!! Zergs should be able to 1a themselves to victory! Terrans should split for their life! because zerg cannot snipe vikings and marines like how marines and vikings can pick off spreaded broodlords | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On August 23 2012 09:59 Masvidal wrote: Can anyone substantiate this in any way, shape, or form? I've never heard of this, not even once. Thread: [TAC3] Beastyqt on the All-Kill http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=348101 Beasty:After the recent patch Blizzard introduced new unit called Queendralisks which kills anything that terran has up to 10 minutes into game allowing zerg to get on 3 base and get 70-80 drones with no problem, which then allows zerg to get tier 3 units at 13-14 minute into game and most of the time terran is simply not being able to deal with it unless you manage to deal damage to zerg economy through defences of queendralisks. It's obviously possible for terran to win vs both P and Z, its just..really hard at this point. What I would change is maybe give terran tier 3 units, nerf warpgate and make it only defensive ability so that protoss wouldnt be able to warp 30 zealots in middle of fights while attacking you and I would agree with new unit queendralisk staying in game as long as GGlord/ infestor composition would be nerfed. I personally find all these balance-related nicknames like queendralisks, GGlords, lolrines, etc. to be kind of unfortunate. They discourage reasoned discussion, and shift the tone of the conversation to more toward name-calling. | ||
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AnomalySC2
United States2073 Posts
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On August 23 2012 14:12 ETisME wrote: because zerg cannot snipe vikings and marines like how marines and vikings can pick off spreaded broodlords corruptors can protect the broodlords from vikings and marines can be taken care of by fungals. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
The composition you need is Raven/Viking. Vikings can attack corrupters at range, and seeker is used simply as a deterrant for them to engage your vikings. You do not advance in with the Ravens if it can be helped. Sometimes it is necessary, but generally speaking. BL/Infestor is insanely immobile, and even if they have 4 spines per expansion, double drops that unload elsewhere then stim in can be a massive pain in the ass. Fungal is only effective vs Ravens if you have something else to take them out. Otherwise, fungal is highly ineffective vs split Ravens, just as it is highly effective vs split Banshees (which not enough people use, almost all my wins vs Korean Zergs have come from a 3-4 port banshee switch when they're using Ling/Infestor/Ultra... split banshees, use cloak, infestors die, even if they hit perfect fungals and IT, it is almost never cost effective, and then you can use them to deny new expansions, while you most Zergs don't even have spire since you typically go infestor straight into hive into ultra). | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On August 23 2012 14:16 ChristianS wrote: Thread: [TAC3] Beastyqt on the All-Kill http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=348101 I personally find all these balance-related nicknames like queendralisks, GGlords, lolrines, etc. to be kind of unfortunate. They discourage reasoned discussion, and shift the tone of the conversation to more toward name-calling. I think it's gotten to the point now where Terrans probably don't think their comments are being taken seriously anyways. | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On August 23 2012 14:26 aksfjh wrote: I think it's gotten to the point now where Terrans probably don't think their comments are being taken seriously anyways. Probably because most of the comments are to grossly over exaggerated to take seriously. | ||
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
1320 NA Master, 19 years old and 178 centimeters tall, and I agree | ||
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