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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 21 2012 19:49 Solarist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 19:33 Snowbear wrote:
Newsflash guys: terrans should split their vikings and marines against fungal, BUT don't you dare to say that zergs should split their corruptors and broodlords against HSM!! That's NOT possible!!!!! Zergs should be able to 1a themselves to victory! Terrans should split for their life! Yeah its quite hilarious, i remember when someone suggested that you split your broods vs votex, zergs shat bricks that so much was required from them. Then when terran ask how do i avoid infestors killing my entire army, air units and all. The answer is usually OMG you just gotta split, cant be that hard
where did anybody write splitting BLs is not required against HSM?
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On August 21 2012 19:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 19:49 Solarist wrote:On August 21 2012 19:33 Snowbear wrote:
Newsflash guys: terrans should split their vikings and marines against fungal, BUT don't you dare to say that zergs should split their corruptors and broodlords against HSM!! That's NOT possible!!!!! Zergs should be able to 1a themselves to victory! Terrans should split for their life! Yeah its quite hilarious, i remember when someone suggested that you split your broods vs votex, zergs shat bricks that so much was required from them. Then when terran ask how do i avoid infestors killing my entire army, air units and all. The answer is usually OMG you just gotta split, cant be that hard where did anybody write splitting BLs is not required against HSM?
Read the comments on the previous page. "It's humanly impossible to split broodlords"
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On August 21 2012 19:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 19:49 Solarist wrote:On August 21 2012 19:33 Snowbear wrote:
Newsflash guys: terrans should split their vikings and marines against fungal, BUT don't you dare to say that zergs should split their corruptors and broodlords against HSM!! That's NOT possible!!!!! Zergs should be able to 1a themselves to victory! Terrans should split for their life! Yeah its quite hilarious, i remember when someone suggested that you split your broods vs votex, zergs shat bricks that so much was required from them. Then when terran ask how do i avoid infestors killing my entire army, air units and all. The answer is usually OMG you just gotta split, cant be that hard where did anybody write splitting BLs is not required against HSM?
I think he's referring to the fact that most zergs think that splitting their units even a tiny bit is absolutely impossible and requires to much APM for a mere mortal to do
Edit: What he said
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On August 21 2012 19:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 19:49 Solarist wrote:On August 21 2012 19:33 Snowbear wrote:
Newsflash guys: terrans should split their vikings and marines against fungal, BUT don't you dare to say that zergs should split their corruptors and broodlords against HSM!! That's NOT possible!!!!! Zergs should be able to 1a themselves to victory! Terrans should split for their life! Yeah its quite hilarious, i remember when someone suggested that you split your broods vs votex, zergs shat bricks that so much was required from them. Then when terran ask how do i avoid infestors killing my entire army, air units and all. The answer is usually OMG you just gotta split, cant be that hard where did anybody write splitting BLs is not required against HSM?
nobody did. plus the terrans dont get that splitting superfast marines is much easier than superslow BLs (no presplit marines = stim + split, no presplit BLs = gg) and lowrange corruptors.
there shouldnt be any discussion that a T raven viking + support army can easily fight BL infestor corruptor. it has been shown a lot by top Ts lately. the discussion should rather be about how T gets to that superarmy.
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On August 21 2012 20:00 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 19:55 Big J wrote:On August 21 2012 19:49 Solarist wrote:On August 21 2012 19:33 Snowbear wrote:
Newsflash guys: terrans should split their vikings and marines against fungal, BUT don't you dare to say that zergs should split their corruptors and broodlords against HSM!! That's NOT possible!!!!! Zergs should be able to 1a themselves to victory! Terrans should split for their life! Yeah its quite hilarious, i remember when someone suggested that you split your broods vs votex, zergs shat bricks that so much was required from them. Then when terran ask how do i avoid infestors killing my entire army, air units and all. The answer is usually OMG you just gotta split, cant be that hard where did anybody write splitting BLs is not required against HSM? Read the comments on the previous page. "It's humanly impossible to split broodlords"
you sir are failing to quote. i said its humanly impossible to split all BLs so that every BL is by its own AND splitting every corruptor so its alone AND inject AND fungal AND build units. THATS what i said. no one said its impossible to split BLs so stop talking BS.
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On August 21 2012 20:02 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 19:55 Big J wrote:On August 21 2012 19:49 Solarist wrote:On August 21 2012 19:33 Snowbear wrote:
Newsflash guys: terrans should split their vikings and marines against fungal, BUT don't you dare to say that zergs should split their corruptors and broodlords against HSM!! That's NOT possible!!!!! Zergs should be able to 1a themselves to victory! Terrans should split for their life! Yeah its quite hilarious, i remember when someone suggested that you split your broods vs votex, zergs shat bricks that so much was required from them. Then when terran ask how do i avoid infestors killing my entire army, air units and all. The answer is usually OMG you just gotta split, cant be that hard where did anybody write splitting BLs is not required against HSM? nobody did. plus the terrans dont get that splitting superfast marines is much easier than superslow BLs (no presplit marines = stim + split, no presplit BLs = gg) and lowrange corruptors. there shouldnt be any discussion that a T raven viking + support army can easily fight BL infestor corruptor. it has been shown a lot by top Ts lately. the discussion should rather be about how T gets to that superarmy.
Yeah I know. I thought he might try to actually quote and thereby read what you wrote and then maybe come to the conclusion that he just overraged.
For the "difficulty": there are also less Broodlords than marines around, they are air so you don't have to consider terrain when splitting.
I don't think it's of any use to discuss what is "harder". It's been shown that both can be down frequently by humans.
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First of all, yes marines are faster because of the stim but they are also in greater numbers and much smaller so it doesn't just consume APM but it also requires a lot of precision. However, even though it is not easy to do, anyone can be decent at marine splitting simply by practicing it a couple of minutes per day.
Secondly, regardless of that super strong late game terran air army, that army still needs to be split in order to win the fight. You don't have to split every single viking, raven and bc, but you need to split them so that they are positioned in a concave. Good examples are Mvp's engagements and Bomber's game vs Slivko at Daybreak - he didn't pre splt his ravens so he lost close to 10 ravens to basically only energy - fungal.
So if terrans can do both marine but also air splits, I'm pretty sure zergs can do it as well.
It is also important to mention that SM damage is not the same through the whole radius, the damage decreases. It is also important that, unlike fungal, SM has travel time and it is relatively easy to spot. SM also doesn't root units so that a series of additional SM's can just devastate the army (like fungal can).
What I'm trying to say is that you don't need to split every single Broodlord so that none of them is touching each other, you need to split them enough that the fight becomes cost effective.
If you examine that Mvp vs. Nestea final game, 2 things are obvious:
1. Mvp had all his units in a beautiful concave, he had 16 ravens but he didn't send all of them at once to risk fungal, he basically flanked with SM.
2. When Nestea saw the ravens (he didn't even scout them before the fight) he pulled everything back which clumped all his broods but also corruptors. Also, since he was busy escaping the SM (which is impossible due to much greater speed of the missle in comparison to bl), he didn't react with his infestors.
So basically, that fight was an ideal scenario for Mvp and also the worst possible scenario for Nestea.
Sure, ravens are great but let's not overexaggerate their effectivnes against properly positioned zerg army and lets also not overexaggerate the difficulty of engaging properly with zerg army, saying it is humanly impossible to split broods good enough to win the fight.
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On August 21 2012 21:28 Qwerty85 wrote:
First of all, yes marines are faster because of the stim but they are also in greater numbers and much smaller so it doesn't just consume APM but it also requires a lot of precision. However, even though it is not easy to do, anyone can be decent at marine splitting simply by practicing it a couple of minutes per day.
Secondly, regardless of that super strong late game terran air army, that army still needs to be split in order to win the fight. You don't have to split every single viking, raven and bc, but you need to split them so that they are positioned in a concave. Good examples are Mvp's engagements and Bomber's game vs Slivko at Daybreak - he didn't pre splt his ravens so he lost close to 10 ravens to basically only energy - fungal.
So if terrans can do both marine but also air splits, I'm pretty sure zergs can do it as well.
It is also important to mention that SM damage is not the same through the whole radius, the damage decreases. It is also important that, unlike fungal, SM has travel time and it is relatively easy to spot. SM also doesn't root units so that a series of additional SM's can just devastate the army (like fungal can).
What I'm trying to say is that you don't need to split every single Broodlord so that none of them is touching each other, you need to split them enough that the fight becomes cost effective.
If you examine that Mvp vs. Nestea final game, 2 things are obvious:
1. Mvp had all his units in a beautiful concave, he had 16 ravens but he didn't send all of them at once to risk fungal, he basically flanked with SM.
2. When Nestea saw the ravens (he didn't even scout them before the fight) he pulled everything back which clumped all his broods but also corruptors. Also, since he was busy escaping the SM (which is impossible due to much greater speed of the missle in comparison to bl), he didn't react with his infestors.
So basically, that fight was an ideal scenario for Mvp and also the worst possible scenario for Nestea.
Sure, ravens are great but let's not overexaggerate their effectivnes against properly positioned zerg army and lets also not overexaggerate the difficulty of engaging properly with zerg army, saying it is humanly impossible to split broods good enough to win the fight.
good post. except the last sentence. I NEVER SAID THAT, some T misquotet me.
all the things you describe are like it should be. both players should be able to win the lategame battle with good positioning, army composition and micro and with the raven army T is definetly powerful enough to do so.
like i said you guys shouldnt discuss IF the raven army is able to fight lategame zerg (which it definetly is), BUT discuss how to get there safely.
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Well funny thing is that in the past, when ravens weren't actually used at all, they would probably be able to be ready in time if terran decided to use them. But as of recently, TvZ is much more passive in the early-mid game which means that hive tech is also ready much faster than it would be ever before.
So far we know that teaching to ravens is viable when you 1. play on super turtle map which can be easily split and which doesn't have too many attack routes for zerg to exploit - we have seen it on Metropolis, it could also work on Metalopolis or Shakuras (but this maps are out of map pool in most tournaments), or when 2. terran gets big enough advantage over zerg in mid game - again, Bomber vs. Slivko on Daybreak comes to mind.
Most tournament maps, at least in my impression, make it very hard for terran to get to that stage if both players enter late game on even terms.
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I am almost willing to bet money that ravens will be the new hot topic of OPness after the patch. I don't believe it will be because of the speed increase that will make them OP, it will be the fact that terran will start using an ability that is already amazing but don't currently utilize.
The exact same thing happened with the Warp Prism Buff (I still argue that before the buff it was still useful as hell). Arguably the infestor buff/nerf (8 seconds worth of fungal would be just as good as 4 seconds imo even with the longer duration of damage being done).
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On August 21 2012 23:46 blug wrote:
I am almost willing to bet money that ravens will be the new hot topic of OPness after the patch. I don't believe it will be because of the speed increase that will make them OP, it will be the fact that terran will start using an ability that is already amazing but don't currently utilize.
The exact same thing happened with the Warp Prism Buff (I still argue that before the buff it was still useful as hell). Arguably the infestor buff/nerf (8 seconds worth of fungal would be just as good as 4 seconds imo even with the longer duration of damage being done).
Pretty much agree, same with Ghosts. Terran players were crying how Infestor is OP, and Zerg players were telling them to use Ghosts. Terran players usually said on that "Ghosts are shit", than few months later, you see masses of Ghost vs. Zerg, and they were countering every unit with Snipe and EMP. Then, after that, we saw Ghosts being nerfed...
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Wouldn't surprise me if they nerfed the raven in some way in 2 patches.
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Better microing Broodlords and Corrupters is a legitimate argument, besides splitting, another microing abilitiy is to move the targeted Corrupter or Broodlord forward into the Hunter Seeker Missiles in order to absorb the impact and deflect the blast radious from the rest of the army.
As far as nerfing Fungal Growth is concerned, I'd trade a root nerf for a damage buff. if you changed the root to a 50% snare and increased the damage coefficient you'd have a more destructive and skillful ability overall, because the Marines would have to choose between microing away from Banelings less effectively or standing their ground and target firing them while draining additional Medivac energy and you'd do more damage to the Vikings in direct air to air engagements with Corrupters instead of just getting into the double Fungal Growth, GG? situations. Fungal Growth is too good vs Terran air, not in the sense of destroying Vikings and Ravens in the end game but in the sense of destroying Medivacs and uncloaking Banshees in the mid game where Zerg can just circumvent a Spire, and either Mutalisks or Corrupters or a Hydralisk Den and Hydralisks to defend (I may be pushing it with Hydralisk Den and Hydralisks). Zerg definitely need an answer to Medivac and Banshee harassment, but they don't need a hard counter to them in Fungal Growth, Infested Terran /faceroll keyboard.
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On August 22 2012 15:14 Thylacine wrote:
Wouldn't surprise me if they nerfed the raven in some way in 2 patches.
It wouldn't matter because very few people use them anyway. Takes way too long for a raven to be useful. Speed buff is a joke, needs a buff to the time it takes to get them into the game.
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On August 21 2012 22:04 Qwerty85 wrote:
Well funny thing is that in the past, when ravens weren't actually used at all, they would probably be able to be ready in time if terran decided to use them. But as of recently, TvZ is much more passive in the early-mid game which means that hive tech is also ready much faster than it would be ever before.
So far we know that teaching to ravens is viable when you 1. play on super turtle map which can be easily split and which doesn't have too many attack routes for zerg to exploit - we have seen it on Metropolis, it could also work on Metalopolis or Shakuras (but this maps are out of map pool in most tournaments), or when 2. terran gets big enough advantage over zerg in mid game - again, Bomber vs. Slivko on Daybreak comes to mind.
Most tournament maps, at least in my impression, make it very hard for terran to get to that stage if both players enter late game on even terms.
It's easy on Ohana, or any other small map, where Mech can take the center. I'm not really sure about Marine, Tank, Medivac play tho', right now Bio play just seems worse than Mech fwiw.
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On August 22 2012 17:09 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 22:04 Qwerty85 wrote:
Well funny thing is that in the past, when ravens weren't actually used at all, they would probably be able to be ready in time if terran decided to use them. But as of recently, TvZ is much more passive in the early-mid game which means that hive tech is also ready much faster than it would be ever before.
So far we know that teaching to ravens is viable when you 1. play on super turtle map which can be easily split and which doesn't have too many attack routes for zerg to exploit - we have seen it on Metropolis, it could also work on Metalopolis or Shakuras (but this maps are out of map pool in most tournaments), or when 2. terran gets big enough advantage over zerg in mid game - again, Bomber vs. Slivko on Daybreak comes to mind.
Most tournament maps, at least in my impression, make it very hard for terran to get to that stage if both players enter late game on even terms. It's easy on Ohana, or any other small map, where Mech can take the center. I'm not really sure about Marine, Tank, Medivac play tho', right now Bio play just seems worse than Mech fwiw.
You need to consider the fact that mech consumes way more gas than going bio or marine tank. Units cost much more gas, production facilities cost much more gas, you also need upgrades for ground mech army but later also for vikings etc. It is highly unlikely that terran will go for a mech composition and have the ravens out with all upgrades and enough energy to actually use the spells like seeker missile.
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On August 22 2012 17:03 MoonCricket wrote:
As far as nerfing Fungal Growth is concerned, I'd trade a root nerf for a damage buff. if you changed the root to a 50% snare and increased the damage coefficient you'd have a more destructive and skillful ability overall, because the Marines would have to choose between microing away from Banelings less effectively or standing their ground and target firing them while draining additional Medivac energy
That would be way too powerful. We've already seen the effects of a buff in damage with fungal growth. Increasing the damage to 40 or 45 would mean stimmed Marines with CS are 1-2 hit by zerglings. That's significant. I think the only way that would work would be if you significantly reduced the radius of fungal or made it a projectile (like EMP).
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On August 21 2012 18:31 blug wrote:
I think ravens are already heaps powerful. I've never understood why people are so hesitant to use hunter seeker missile...
People say that it's slow and unreliable but honestly it's a death warrant to broodlords =S
And why shouldn't Zergs learn to do basic splitting?
They should have learned to do it with their drones, but instead hellions were nerfed and queens were buffed.
But even if Zergs don't split and let's say they lose all their Broolords, they are just fine. They can re-max on whatever it is counters that army. If mass viking Terran, go infestor Ultra. If heavy marauder, tank, go Broodlord, Infestor.
The thing is, if Zergs split their units, it's just icing on the cake. Even if HSMs are cast perfectly and the Zerg is horrible and clumps all their units w/o micro, it still can be a very even game.
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On August 21 2012 18:46 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
Actually, it takes more than 2 HSMs to kill a Brood Lords as the maximum damage is 100 and they have 225 life. Mind you, it's not hard to have a few vikings' volleys hit, so it's not as if you need to hit all of the Brood Lords with 3 or even 2 and as said, sometimes the corruptors or infestors are better targets.
Oh and Mooncricket, you need to fix your quotes.
3 HSMs to kill a Broodlord. 1 Fungal to chain fungal Ravens, precluding them from casting HSM
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On August 21 2012 19:21 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 19:11 SheaR619 wrote:On August 21 2012 18:48 blug wrote:On August 21 2012 18:46 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
Actually, it takes more than 2 HSMs to kill a Brood Lords as the maximum damage is 100 and they have 225 life. Mind you, it's not hard to have a few vikings' volleys hit, so it's not as if you need to hit all of the Brood Lords with 3 or even 2 and as said, sometimes the corruptors of infestors are better targets. Yeah sorry I didn't know that they took 3 HSMs, I just was going by what the other guy said xD. But still 3 is pretty good. How is 3 HSM good for killing 1 BL? lol, using twice or 3 times as much gas + time just to hopefully charge my raven in without getting fungaled and lose. Pretty sure he also has corruptors :/ show me a replay where the Z splits all his BLs in SINGLE BLs only. its humanly impossible to split ALL BLs into single ones, split ALL corruptors into single, fungal, inject and build units all at once. you will ALWAYS hit 2-5 units with a HSM and PDD + vikings + 2-3 thors RAPE corruptors. the problem isnt killing the Z super army. so the raven buff isnt needed. the problem for T is getting its own superarmy with ravens. but T will learn how the get there (the korean Ts already know how to).
lol.
I love seeing a Zerg complain about having to split units. Welcome to Terran. And Welcome to Fungal Growth.
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EPT
