[D] The raven buff does not address TvZ issues - Page 19

On August 20 2012 00:36 Rabiator wrote:
and since the Zerg is usually the more mobile army that wont be a problem.

On August 20 2012 00:32 blug wrote:


Was trying to remember where I've heard of your name... You're that guy everyone calls Gimly yeah? I was at WCS cheering you on xD

On August 20 2012 00:36 Rabiator wrote:

... not with the vision advantage which Zerg has from Overlords everywhere and creep spread. Do remember that cloak gets nerfed in HotS to have a fixed duration with a cooldown. You dont have it available whenever you want (and the energy is there) AND you need several snipes for an Infestor, but one Fungal Growth will reveal the whole pack of Ghosts and keep them in place to be killed by Zerglings. So:

- EMP: deals no direct damage and prevents damage if hit correctly
- Fungal Growth: deals damage, locks down AND reveals cloaked units

So please dont start saying "but you can EMP" ... only one or two Fungal Growths will be the death of the Ghosts due to revealing them and locking them down, while an EMP still lets you withdraw your Infestors ... and since the Zerg is usually the more mobile army that wont be a problem.

On August 20 2012 00:32 blug wrote:


Was trying to remember where I've heard of your name... You're that guy everyone calls Gimly yeah? I was at WCS cheering you on xD

On August 20 2012 00:29 Larkin wrote:
I don't understand this complaint.

OP is essentially saying TvZ sucks because of fungal.

So get ghosts.

Ravens deal with broods, infestors, and corruptors quite admirably if you can have them on the flank of your vikings - look at MVP's play for an example. Ravens are also pretty tough. If they get fungal'd, back off. Your bio has stim, ultras and broods are slow.

I do agree that the research time of raven upgrades should be reduced. You need a lot of starports, tech labs, and upgrades before you can even build ravens for them to be effective.

Ghosts can EMP and snipe infestors, and while snipe has been nerfed it is still quite good against brood lords and pre-max upgraded Ultras.

The problem, in my eyes, lies in that Zerg can techswitch so quickly Terran can't have enough of one unit to deal with it.

Ultras - need marauders.
Broods - need vikings and ravens.
Infestors - need ghosts.

Terrans have been asking how to spend their gas in late game, so I don't think cost is thaaaaaat much of an issue. But production certainly is, just due to how the mechanics work.

The solution is to not sit back and allow the Zerg to get to this stage where they can tech-switch at will and exploit Terran's production style. It's to put them on the back foot, be aggressive, constantly drop and generally be a nuisance, reduce their income, and create a situation where they simply don't have the bank to tech switch constantly.

On August 20 2012 00:36 Rabiator wrote:

... not with the vision advantage which Zerg has from Overlords everywhere and creep spread. Do remember that cloak gets nerfed in HotS to have a fixed duration with a cooldown. You dont have it available whenever you want (and the energy is there) AND you need several snipes for an Infestor, but one Fungal Growth will reveal the whole pack of Ghosts and keep them in place to be killed by Zerglings. So:

- EMP: deals no direct damage and prevents damage if hit correctly
- Fungal Growth: deals damage, locks down AND reveals cloaked units

So please dont start saying "but you can EMP" ... only one or two Fungal Growths will be the death of the Ghosts due to revealing them and locking them down, while an EMP still lets you withdraw your Infestors ... and since the Zerg is usually the more mobile army that wont be a problem.

On August 20 2012 00:48 iaguz wrote:


Yup, hehe thanks.







Have you ever tried to use ghosts vs zerg? It's not the same as using them against Protoss. VS protoss high templars are slow and easier to snipe and they bunch up harder so it's easier to punish a sloppy protoss. Infestors are really fast and really fat and it's really hard to do this to them. EMP works on every Protoss unit so even if the HT's are chilling at the back the ghosts remain relevant unlike vs Zerg where snipe just tickles all their units and you can only emp the infestors (well I guess maybe also the queens too). It's also hard to kepe ghosts out the front of your army because thats what the broodlords will attack first. Add in tank splash too! fun.

The other thing is how the army works as a whole. When you emp a bunch of protoss units you stim and run in there and the Protoss has to engage. If you emp a bunch of infestors then the zerg army tends to be fast enough it can just retreat and wait til it has energy again. This is why if you're going to emp infestors it has to be just as the Zerg is trying to engage and this is very difficult because when zerg is trying to engage you have like a thousand things you have to do all at once like split, stim, move shit, split split split some more and focus and if you have ravens and flying units you also gotta micro them. It's fucking harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd.

On August 20 2012 01:01 FlukyS wrote:
I don't think terran players get the idea that being able to see creep tumors is reason enough to make 1 raven in a game. Like ive seen a terran player use 5 scans in a game to push back the creep do the math that is 1750 minerals that were not mined by mules in that game. Is that more than the price of a raven definitely. Who gives a crap about seeker missile or auto turrets or pdd, detection is probably the most important skill the raven offers.

On August 19 2012 15:45 Thylacine wrote:


That's a very shitty and trolly post but i'll bite and say...
Stop living under your 2010-terran rock and go ladder for a few hours. Then come back and say what you just said again, spoiler alert, YOU WON'T.

Terran is in an awful position atm not only in TvZ, but TvP too. Take your time to actually read Avilo's thread here and you'll understand.

On August 20 2012 00:52 Larkin wrote:


I didn't know about the cloak nerf, so thanks for that.

Well you shouldn't be allowing these overlords to be there. One thing MVP always does when he gets his starport out is to send a Viking around the map and clear up overlords. Not only does it reduce Zerg's vision, it costs them a few hundred minerals.

And with Ravens, you can clear up creep with ease.

Maybe Terrans could begin to accomodate ghosts in medivacs, as Protoss does with warp prisms and HT's to feedback infestors.

I don't know. A good blanket of EMPs = no fungals. A good fungal = dead bio. It's the same kind of thing in TvP with storm. It's just the way the game works. But now I see Terrans not even trying to deal with infestors except with splitting.

On August 20 2012 00:56 Larkin wrote:


Yeah man, I know it's hard. I play Terran and Protoss in equal measure, and I hate TvZ (but love PvZ). But the game is hard. It's meant to be hard. It seems easier for Zergs at the moment, for sure. But it's about learning, isn't it.

I have to disagree that infestors are "really fast" - they're space buffalo. They're slow. On creep, they have decent speed. But certainly catchable off it.

I think it becomes a positioning issue once again. With your ghosts in your army, like in TvP, it becomes hard because of fungal and broodlings. But if you can cloak and flank around, same with Ravens and HSM from the air, you can CRUSH a Zerg army. You take out the infestors and your bio has freedom to destroy broods and ultras with micro and stim.

At times it seems that Zerg can just 1a and win while Terran is working their ass off. But then if you work and come off on top, Terran has been so cost efficient they can push their advantage.

On August 20 2012 01:20 D4V3Z02 wrote:
Terrans are still winning, that fact proves that TvZ is balanced. Because of that the raven change is fine, theres no need for another change.

On August 20 2012 01:31 Azzur wrote:
Absolutely totally agree - I saw at IEM Cologne Bomber vs Violet set1. The whole game evolved on the one money fungal which killed all the expensive vikings. I don't understand how a spell can be so OP to do that. If you think about it, Blizzard knew about the power of fungals that they wanted to remove it's ability to affect air units - but zerg qq reverted the change.

Zergs have fungals and protoss have HTs - terran doesn't have a easy kill spell.

On August 20 2012 01:33 blug wrote:


Errr... Hunter Seeker Missile eats broodlords/corrupters. Most underused ability in the game.

On August 20 2012 01:31 Azzur wrote:
Absolutely totally agree - I saw at IEM Cologne Bomber vs Violet set1. The whole game evolved on the one money fungal which killed all the expensive vikings. I don't understand how a spell can be so OP to do that. If you think about it, Blizzard knew about the power of fungals that they wanted to remove it's ability to affect air units - but zerg qq reverted the change.

Zergs have fungals and protoss have HTs - terran doesn't have a easy kill spell.

On August 20 2012 00:47 blug wrote:


You talk as though that Ghosts don't have snipe/nukes/cloak.

And yes, Nukes are incredibly useful late game.

Stop talking as if ghosts are absolutely useless compared to infestors. They are different, not worse. If you get an EMP off on infestors those infestors are useless for ages while a fungal on a group of units doesn't mean death, especially when there are 8 medivacs healing them.

Also if you are losing stuff to fungals you are walking to far away from your siege tanks with your marines.