• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:18
CEST 00:18
KST 07:18
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202552RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams7Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing RSL Season 1 - Final Week
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Post Pic of your Favorite Food! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 729 users

[D] The raven buff does not address TvZ issues - Page 19

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 17 18 19 20 21 48 Next All
If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards.
killy666
Profile Joined July 2012
France204 Posts
August 19 2012 15:40 GMT
#361
On August 20 2012 00:36 Rabiator wrote:
and since the Zerg is usually the more mobile army that wont be a problem.


Not when we're talking about a broodlord siege push. There are definitely moments when Terran has the mobility advantage over Zerg.
My life is sicker than your band
convention
Profile Joined October 2011
United States622 Posts
August 19 2012 15:47 GMT
#362
On August 20 2012 00:32 blug wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2012 23:37 iaguz wrote:
Ghosts were THE unit a few patches ago because snipe > Zerg. It was that simple. They had other abilities but they were just the tasty sides to the fucking 700 gm medium rare steak that was snipe.

I've tried ghosts quite a bit in my lategame and I think they are mostly rubbish. They are very bad at dealing with big infestor counts even if they cloak and get in there, and nukes are very random, sometimes amazing usually pointless. Ghosts can be really good if one of two things can occur

1) a splash of emp's .3 seconds before a zerg has to fungal and he can't disengage his army without just getting murdered
2) constant nuke harass as part of a constant aggression strategy, keeping the zergs attention spread and any drone kills relevant (I find if both players are turtling successful nukes are pointless. You killed 25 drones? Big deal the zerg can reproduce that with his huge mineral bank in like 10 seconds).


Was trying to remember where I've heard of your name... You're that guy everyone calls Gimly yeah? I was at WCS cheering you on xD

I remember watching this guys games too. He almost lost a supply depot that he built to block out a probe, and then commented on it in game. Pretty funny game.
blug
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia623 Posts
August 19 2012 15:47 GMT
#363
On August 20 2012 00:36 Rabiator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 00:29 Larkin wrote:
Ghosts can EMP and snipe infestors,

... not with the vision advantage which Zerg has from Overlords everywhere and creep spread. Do remember that cloak gets nerfed in HotS to have a fixed duration with a cooldown. You dont have it available whenever you want (and the energy is there) AND you need several snipes for an Infestor, but one Fungal Growth will reveal the whole pack of Ghosts and keep them in place to be killed by Zerglings. So:

- EMP: deals no direct damage and prevents damage if hit correctly
- Fungal Growth: deals damage, locks down AND reveals cloaked units

So please dont start saying "but you can EMP" ... only one or two Fungal Growths will be the death of the Ghosts due to revealing them and locking them down, while an EMP still lets you withdraw your Infestors ... and since the Zerg is usually the more mobile army that wont be a problem.


You talk as though that Ghosts don't have snipe/nukes/cloak.

And yes, Nukes are incredibly useful late game.

Stop talking as if ghosts are absolutely useless compared to infestors. They are different, not worse. If you get an EMP off on infestors those infestors are useless for ages while a fungal on a group of units doesn't mean death, especially when there are 8 medivacs healing them.

Also if you are losing stuff to fungals you are walking to far away from your siege tanks with your marines.
Derp
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
August 19 2012 15:48 GMT
#364
On August 20 2012 00:32 blug wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2012 23:37 iaguz wrote:
Ghosts were THE unit a few patches ago because snipe > Zerg. It was that simple. They had other abilities but they were just the tasty sides to the fucking 700 gm medium rare steak that was snipe.

I've tried ghosts quite a bit in my lategame and I think they are mostly rubbish. They are very bad at dealing with big infestor counts even if they cloak and get in there, and nukes are very random, sometimes amazing usually pointless. Ghosts can be really good if one of two things can occur

1) a splash of emp's .3 seconds before a zerg has to fungal and he can't disengage his army without just getting murdered
2) constant nuke harass as part of a constant aggression strategy, keeping the zergs attention spread and any drone kills relevant (I find if both players are turtling successful nukes are pointless. You killed 25 drones? Big deal the zerg can reproduce that with his huge mineral bank in like 10 seconds).


Was trying to remember where I've heard of your name... You're that guy everyone calls Gimly yeah? I was at WCS cheering you on xD


Yup, hehe thanks.




On August 20 2012 00:29 Larkin wrote:
I don't understand this complaint.

OP is essentially saying TvZ sucks because of fungal.

So get ghosts.

Ravens deal with broods, infestors, and corruptors quite admirably if you can have them on the flank of your vikings - look at MVP's play for an example. Ravens are also pretty tough. If they get fungal'd, back off. Your bio has stim, ultras and broods are slow.

I do agree that the research time of raven upgrades should be reduced. You need a lot of starports, tech labs, and upgrades before you can even build ravens for them to be effective.

Ghosts can EMP and snipe infestors, and while snipe has been nerfed it is still quite good against brood lords and pre-max upgraded Ultras.

The problem, in my eyes, lies in that Zerg can techswitch so quickly Terran can't have enough of one unit to deal with it.

Ultras - need marauders.
Broods - need vikings and ravens.
Infestors - need ghosts.

Terrans have been asking how to spend their gas in late game, so I don't think cost is thaaaaaat much of an issue. But production certainly is, just due to how the mechanics work.

The solution is to not sit back and allow the Zerg to get to this stage where they can tech-switch at will and exploit Terran's production style. It's to put them on the back foot, be aggressive, constantly drop and generally be a nuisance, reduce their income, and create a situation where they simply don't have the bank to tech switch constantly.



Have you ever tried to use ghosts vs zerg? It's not the same as using them against Protoss. VS protoss high templars are slow and easier to snipe and they bunch up harder so it's easier to punish a sloppy protoss. Infestors are really fast and really fat and it's really hard to do this to them. EMP works on every Protoss unit so even if the HT's are chilling at the back the ghosts remain relevant unlike vs Zerg where snipe just tickles all their units and you can only emp the infestors (well I guess maybe also the queens too). It's also hard to kepe ghosts out the front of your army because thats what the broodlords will attack first. Add in tank splash too! fun.

The other thing is how the army works as a whole. When you emp a bunch of protoss units you stim and run in there and the Protoss has to engage. If you emp a bunch of infestors then the zerg army tends to be fast enough it can just retreat and wait til it has energy again. This is why if you're going to emp infestors it has to be just as the Zerg is trying to engage and this is very difficult because when zerg is trying to engage you have like a thousand things you have to do all at once like split, stim, move shit, split split split some more and focus and if you have ravens and flying units you also gotta micro them. It's fucking harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd.

ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
Larkin
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United Kingdom7161 Posts
August 19 2012 15:52 GMT
#365
On August 20 2012 00:36 Rabiator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 00:29 Larkin wrote:
Ghosts can EMP and snipe infestors,

... not with the vision advantage which Zerg has from Overlords everywhere and creep spread. Do remember that cloak gets nerfed in HotS to have a fixed duration with a cooldown. You dont have it available whenever you want (and the energy is there) AND you need several snipes for an Infestor, but one Fungal Growth will reveal the whole pack of Ghosts and keep them in place to be killed by Zerglings. So:

- EMP: deals no direct damage and prevents damage if hit correctly
- Fungal Growth: deals damage, locks down AND reveals cloaked units

So please dont start saying "but you can EMP" ... only one or two Fungal Growths will be the death of the Ghosts due to revealing them and locking them down, while an EMP still lets you withdraw your Infestors ... and since the Zerg is usually the more mobile army that wont be a problem.


I didn't know about the cloak nerf, so thanks for that.

Well you shouldn't be allowing these overlords to be there. One thing MVP always does when he gets his starport out is to send a Viking around the map and clear up overlords. Not only does it reduce Zerg's vision, it costs them a few hundred minerals.

And with Ravens, you can clear up creep with ease.

Maybe Terrans could begin to accomodate ghosts in medivacs, as Protoss does with warp prisms and HT's to feedback infestors.

I don't know. A good blanket of EMPs = no fungals. A good fungal = dead bio. It's the same kind of thing in TvP with storm. It's just the way the game works. But now I see Terrans not even trying to deal with infestors except with splitting.
https://www.twitch.tv/ttalarkin - streams random stuff, high level teamleague, maybe even heroleague
Larkin
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United Kingdom7161 Posts
August 19 2012 15:56 GMT
#366
On August 20 2012 00:48 iaguz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 00:32 blug wrote:
On August 19 2012 23:37 iaguz wrote:
Ghosts were THE unit a few patches ago because snipe > Zerg. It was that simple. They had other abilities but they were just the tasty sides to the fucking 700 gm medium rare steak that was snipe.

I've tried ghosts quite a bit in my lategame and I think they are mostly rubbish. They are very bad at dealing with big infestor counts even if they cloak and get in there, and nukes are very random, sometimes amazing usually pointless. Ghosts can be really good if one of two things can occur

1) a splash of emp's .3 seconds before a zerg has to fungal and he can't disengage his army without just getting murdered
2) constant nuke harass as part of a constant aggression strategy, keeping the zergs attention spread and any drone kills relevant (I find if both players are turtling successful nukes are pointless. You killed 25 drones? Big deal the zerg can reproduce that with his huge mineral bank in like 10 seconds).


Was trying to remember where I've heard of your name... You're that guy everyone calls Gimly yeah? I was at WCS cheering you on xD


Yup, hehe thanks.




Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 00:29 Larkin wrote:
I don't understand this complaint.

OP is essentially saying TvZ sucks because of fungal.

So get ghosts.

Ravens deal with broods, infestors, and corruptors quite admirably if you can have them on the flank of your vikings - look at MVP's play for an example. Ravens are also pretty tough. If they get fungal'd, back off. Your bio has stim, ultras and broods are slow.

I do agree that the research time of raven upgrades should be reduced. You need a lot of starports, tech labs, and upgrades before you can even build ravens for them to be effective.

Ghosts can EMP and snipe infestors, and while snipe has been nerfed it is still quite good against brood lords and pre-max upgraded Ultras.

The problem, in my eyes, lies in that Zerg can techswitch so quickly Terran can't have enough of one unit to deal with it.

Ultras - need marauders.
Broods - need vikings and ravens.
Infestors - need ghosts.

Terrans have been asking how to spend their gas in late game, so I don't think cost is thaaaaaat much of an issue. But production certainly is, just due to how the mechanics work.

The solution is to not sit back and allow the Zerg to get to this stage where they can tech-switch at will and exploit Terran's production style. It's to put them on the back foot, be aggressive, constantly drop and generally be a nuisance, reduce their income, and create a situation where they simply don't have the bank to tech switch constantly.



Have you ever tried to use ghosts vs zerg? It's not the same as using them against Protoss. VS protoss high templars are slow and easier to snipe and they bunch up harder so it's easier to punish a sloppy protoss. Infestors are really fast and really fat and it's really hard to do this to them. EMP works on every Protoss unit so even if the HT's are chilling at the back the ghosts remain relevant unlike vs Zerg where snipe just tickles all their units and you can only emp the infestors (well I guess maybe also the queens too). It's also hard to kepe ghosts out the front of your army because thats what the broodlords will attack first. Add in tank splash too! fun.

The other thing is how the army works as a whole. When you emp a bunch of protoss units you stim and run in there and the Protoss has to engage. If you emp a bunch of infestors then the zerg army tends to be fast enough it can just retreat and wait til it has energy again. This is why if you're going to emp infestors it has to be just as the Zerg is trying to engage and this is very difficult because when zerg is trying to engage you have like a thousand things you have to do all at once like split, stim, move shit, split split split some more and focus and if you have ravens and flying units you also gotta micro them. It's fucking harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd.



Yeah man, I know it's hard. I play Terran and Protoss in equal measure, and I hate TvZ (but love PvZ). But the game is hard. It's meant to be hard. It seems easier for Zergs at the moment, for sure. But it's about learning, isn't it.

I have to disagree that infestors are "really fast" - they're space buffalo. They're slow. On creep, they have decent speed. But certainly catchable off it.

I think it becomes a positioning issue once again. With your ghosts in your army, like in TvP, it becomes hard because of fungal and broodlings. But if you can cloak and flank around, same with Ravens and HSM from the air, you can CRUSH a Zerg army. You take out the infestors and your bio has freedom to destroy broods and ultras with micro and stim.

At times it seems that Zerg can just 1a and win while Terran is working their ass off. But then if you work and come off on top, Terran has been so cost efficient they can push their advantage.
https://www.twitch.tv/ttalarkin - streams random stuff, high level teamleague, maybe even heroleague
FlukyS
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Ireland485 Posts
August 19 2012 16:01 GMT
#367
I don't think terran players get the idea that being able to see creep tumors is reason enough to make 1 raven in a game. Like ive seen a terran player use 5 scans in a game to push back the creep do the math that is 1750 minerals that were not mined by mules in that game. Is that more than the price of a raven definitely. Who gives a crap about seeker missile or auto turrets or pdd, detection is probably the most important skill the raven offers.
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
August 19 2012 16:05 GMT
#368
In my experience with ghosts the first time you get a bunch with cloak it can work out quite nicely because zergs never see this it never happens to them they aren't ready for the possibility. But after you reveal ghosts they have overseers and they fungal the shimmers they are now looking for. Sometimes once is enough though.

ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
blug
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia623 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-19 16:07:50
August 19 2012 16:05 GMT
#369
On August 20 2012 01:01 FlukyS wrote:
I don't think terran players get the idea that being able to see creep tumors is reason enough to make 1 raven in a game. Like ive seen a terran player use 5 scans in a game to push back the creep do the math that is 1750 minerals that were not mined by mules in that game. Is that more than the price of a raven definitely. Who gives a crap about seeker missile or auto turrets or pdd, detection is probably the most important skill the raven offers.


Late game scans aren't really as much of an issue because you aren't technically losing 1750 minerals. You just won't get the minerals as fast.

If you are talking about early game. Just getting to raven tech can be pretty awkward especially when you are trying to pump out medivacs/vikings.
Derp
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
August 19 2012 16:14 GMT
#370
On August 19 2012 15:45 Thylacine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2012 15:16 TsGBruzze wrote:
I am a terran and i Would be sad if they buffed terran... Let The metagame change...


That's a very shitty and trolly post but i'll bite and say...
Stop living under your 2010-terran rock and go ladder for a few hours. Then come back and say what you just said again, spoiler alert, YOU WON'T.

Terran is in an awful position atm not only in TvZ, but TvP too. Take your time to actually read Avilo's thread here and you'll understand.


Why are posts like these allowed but posts shitting on Avilo not? OBNOXIOUS SPOILER I play against Zergs on ladder all the time as Terran, OBNOXIOUS SPOILER I DO think it's balanced.

Stop calling his post a troll and then putting shit effort into your own, its extremely annoying. Most Terran's are just upset the game is balancing out and can't handle the transition. Time to stop bitching, time to start improving.
FoTG fighting!
D4V3Z02
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany693 Posts
August 19 2012 16:20 GMT
#371
Terrans are still winning, that fact proves that TvZ is balanced. Because of that the raven change is fine, theres no need for another change.
http://www.twitch.tv/d4v3z02 all your base are belong to overlord
convention
Profile Joined October 2011
United States622 Posts
August 19 2012 16:20 GMT
#372
On August 20 2012 00:52 Larkin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 00:36 Rabiator wrote:
On August 20 2012 00:29 Larkin wrote:
Ghosts can EMP and snipe infestors,

... not with the vision advantage which Zerg has from Overlords everywhere and creep spread. Do remember that cloak gets nerfed in HotS to have a fixed duration with a cooldown. You dont have it available whenever you want (and the energy is there) AND you need several snipes for an Infestor, but one Fungal Growth will reveal the whole pack of Ghosts and keep them in place to be killed by Zerglings. So:

- EMP: deals no direct damage and prevents damage if hit correctly
- Fungal Growth: deals damage, locks down AND reveals cloaked units

So please dont start saying "but you can EMP" ... only one or two Fungal Growths will be the death of the Ghosts due to revealing them and locking them down, while an EMP still lets you withdraw your Infestors ... and since the Zerg is usually the more mobile army that wont be a problem.


I didn't know about the cloak nerf, so thanks for that.

Well you shouldn't be allowing these overlords to be there. One thing MVP always does when he gets his starport out is to send a Viking around the map and clear up overlords. Not only does it reduce Zerg's vision, it costs them a few hundred minerals.

And with Ravens, you can clear up creep with ease.

Maybe Terrans could begin to accomodate ghosts in medivacs, as Protoss does with warp prisms and HT's to feedback infestors.

I don't know. A good blanket of EMPs = no fungals. A good fungal = dead bio. It's the same kind of thing in TvP with storm. It's just the way the game works. But now I see Terrans not even trying to deal with infestors except with splitting.

You can't clear the overlords out if you want to go for an early timing, since you won't have the means to deal with them at that point. Those overlord spots + queens prevents terrans from putting pressure on early.

There are a lot of differences in ghosts v HT and ghosts v infestors. For instance, ghosts are very useful in TvP outside of emping the HT. They can emp the army, or they can tank damage very well, and they have high dps against zealots with their auto attack. Against zerg, they are not doing anything, their only job is to take out infestors. Also, HT are slow and if they are caught out of position, they are completely dead. If a clump of infestors get caught out, they can fungal still save a huge chunk of them. The part that makes this even harder, usually zergs will get >15 infestors, whereas protoss usually will have ~6 with the army because infestors scale very well with additional infestors (because you want to be chain fungaling), whereas HT do not scale with additional HT. To stop the fungals, you have to kill so many infestors, instead of just a few HT.


On August 20 2012 00:56 Larkin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 00:48 iaguz wrote:
On August 20 2012 00:32 blug wrote:
On August 19 2012 23:37 iaguz wrote:
Ghosts were THE unit a few patches ago because snipe > Zerg. It was that simple. They had other abilities but they were just the tasty sides to the fucking 700 gm medium rare steak that was snipe.

I've tried ghosts quite a bit in my lategame and I think they are mostly rubbish. They are very bad at dealing with big infestor counts even if they cloak and get in there, and nukes are very random, sometimes amazing usually pointless. Ghosts can be really good if one of two things can occur

1) a splash of emp's .3 seconds before a zerg has to fungal and he can't disengage his army without just getting murdered
2) constant nuke harass as part of a constant aggression strategy, keeping the zergs attention spread and any drone kills relevant (I find if both players are turtling successful nukes are pointless. You killed 25 drones? Big deal the zerg can reproduce that with his huge mineral bank in like 10 seconds).


Was trying to remember where I've heard of your name... You're that guy everyone calls Gimly yeah? I was at WCS cheering you on xD


Yup, hehe thanks.




On August 20 2012 00:29 Larkin wrote:
I don't understand this complaint.

OP is essentially saying TvZ sucks because of fungal.

So get ghosts.

Ravens deal with broods, infestors, and corruptors quite admirably if you can have them on the flank of your vikings - look at MVP's play for an example. Ravens are also pretty tough. If they get fungal'd, back off. Your bio has stim, ultras and broods are slow.

I do agree that the research time of raven upgrades should be reduced. You need a lot of starports, tech labs, and upgrades before you can even build ravens for them to be effective.

Ghosts can EMP and snipe infestors, and while snipe has been nerfed it is still quite good against brood lords and pre-max upgraded Ultras.

The problem, in my eyes, lies in that Zerg can techswitch so quickly Terran can't have enough of one unit to deal with it.

Ultras - need marauders.
Broods - need vikings and ravens.
Infestors - need ghosts.

Terrans have been asking how to spend their gas in late game, so I don't think cost is thaaaaaat much of an issue. But production certainly is, just due to how the mechanics work.

The solution is to not sit back and allow the Zerg to get to this stage where they can tech-switch at will and exploit Terran's production style. It's to put them on the back foot, be aggressive, constantly drop and generally be a nuisance, reduce their income, and create a situation where they simply don't have the bank to tech switch constantly.



Have you ever tried to use ghosts vs zerg? It's not the same as using them against Protoss. VS protoss high templars are slow and easier to snipe and they bunch up harder so it's easier to punish a sloppy protoss. Infestors are really fast and really fat and it's really hard to do this to them. EMP works on every Protoss unit so even if the HT's are chilling at the back the ghosts remain relevant unlike vs Zerg where snipe just tickles all their units and you can only emp the infestors (well I guess maybe also the queens too). It's also hard to kepe ghosts out the front of your army because thats what the broodlords will attack first. Add in tank splash too! fun.

The other thing is how the army works as a whole. When you emp a bunch of protoss units you stim and run in there and the Protoss has to engage. If you emp a bunch of infestors then the zerg army tends to be fast enough it can just retreat and wait til it has energy again. This is why if you're going to emp infestors it has to be just as the Zerg is trying to engage and this is very difficult because when zerg is trying to engage you have like a thousand things you have to do all at once like split, stim, move shit, split split split some more and focus and if you have ravens and flying units you also gotta micro them. It's fucking harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd.



Yeah man, I know it's hard. I play Terran and Protoss in equal measure, and I hate TvZ (but love PvZ). But the game is hard. It's meant to be hard. It seems easier for Zergs at the moment, for sure. But it's about learning, isn't it.

I have to disagree that infestors are "really fast" - they're space buffalo. They're slow. On creep, they have decent speed. But certainly catchable off it.

I think it becomes a positioning issue once again. With your ghosts in your army, like in TvP, it becomes hard because of fungal and broodlings. But if you can cloak and flank around, same with Ravens and HSM from the air, you can CRUSH a Zerg army. You take out the infestors and your bio has freedom to destroy broods and ultras with micro and stim.

At times it seems that Zerg can just 1a and win while Terran is working their ass off. But then if you work and come off on top, Terran has been so cost efficient they can push their advantage.

As for speed of infestors being really fast, consider the case where you catch infestors off guard. Off creep, ghosts and infestors are the exact same speed so infestors can kind of get away. They won't be chased down by ghosts. On creep, infestors have a speed multiplier of 1.3, so they can easily get away. Even if you stim bio, bio is only 15% faster than the infestor. That is not much time that you have to punish infestors out of position. Then on top of that, infestors have two escape spells of fungal and burrow to help them escape.

Now for high templar, ghosts are already 20% faster! Add in stimmed bio which is 80% faster! HT also do not have any escape spells. That is why HT caught out of position is a huge blunder, and those HT will not be saved at all. Infestors, however, are not punished anywhere nearly as hard.
blug
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia623 Posts
August 19 2012 16:30 GMT
#373
On August 20 2012 01:20 D4V3Z02 wrote:
Terrans are still winning, that fact proves that TvZ is balanced. Because of that the raven change is fine, theres no need for another change.


Pretty much... MVP owning Nerchio atm in late game ZvT (Basically just won the game with a bunch of seekers on broodlords).

Apparently Ravens are useless....
Derp
Harbinger631
Profile Joined September 2010
United States376 Posts
August 19 2012 16:31 GMT
#374
MVP putting on a show with Ravens in the late game at IEM. Check it out!
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
August 19 2012 16:31 GMT
#375
Absolutely totally agree - I saw at IEM Cologne Bomber vs Violet set1. The whole game evolved on the one money fungal which killed all the expensive vikings. I don't understand how a spell can be so OP to do that. If you think about it, Blizzard knew about the power of fungals that they wanted to remove it's ability to affect air units - but zerg qq reverted the change.

Zergs have fungals and protoss have HTs - terran doesn't have a easy kill spell.
blug
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia623 Posts
August 19 2012 16:33 GMT
#376
On August 20 2012 01:31 Azzur wrote:
Absolutely totally agree - I saw at IEM Cologne Bomber vs Violet set1. The whole game evolved on the one money fungal which killed all the expensive vikings. I don't understand how a spell can be so OP to do that. If you think about it, Blizzard knew about the power of fungals that they wanted to remove it's ability to affect air units - but zerg qq reverted the change.

Zergs have fungals and protoss have HTs - terran doesn't have a easy kill spell.


Errr... Hunter Seeker Missile eats broodlords/corrupters. Most underused ability in the game.
Derp
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6259 Posts
August 19 2012 16:34 GMT
#377
On August 20 2012 01:33 blug wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 01:31 Azzur wrote:
Absolutely totally agree - I saw at IEM Cologne Bomber vs Violet set1. The whole game evolved on the one money fungal which killed all the expensive vikings. I don't understand how a spell can be so OP to do that. If you think about it, Blizzard knew about the power of fungals that they wanted to remove it's ability to affect air units - but zerg qq reverted the change.

Zergs have fungals and protoss have HTs - terran doesn't have a easy kill spell.


Errr... Hunter Seeker Missile eats broodlords/corrupters. Most underused ability in the game.

MVP being a much better player than the one dimensional zerg players at IEM doesn't prove the viability of the ravens.
Queequag101
Profile Joined July 2012
Canada24 Posts
August 19 2012 16:35 GMT
#378
On August 20 2012 01:31 Azzur wrote:
Absolutely totally agree - I saw at IEM Cologne Bomber vs Violet set1. The whole game evolved on the one money fungal which killed all the expensive vikings. I don't understand how a spell can be so OP to do that. If you think about it, Blizzard knew about the power of fungals that they wanted to remove it's ability to affect air units - but zerg qq reverted the change.

Zergs have fungals and protoss have HTs - terran doesn't have a easy kill spell.


I know this thread is about how bad seeker missles are but Ive been watching MVP use them all weekend now and he's a great benchmark for how good something is used the best way. Guess what he's decimating groups of infestors broodlords and baneling clumps with ease with the seeker missles its really punishing the swarmyness of zerg. Terrans are learning cute new tricks this weekend and your going to see a meta game shift now with Ravens being used as the norm in later game.
ROOTFayth
Profile Joined January 2004
Canada3351 Posts
August 19 2012 16:36 GMT
#379
the problem isn't the raven

the problem is avilo
Zoesan
Profile Joined March 2012
Switzerland141 Posts
August 19 2012 16:37 GMT
#380
On August 20 2012 00:47 blug wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 00:36 Rabiator wrote:
On August 20 2012 00:29 Larkin wrote:
Ghosts can EMP and snipe infestors,

... not with the vision advantage which Zerg has from Overlords everywhere and creep spread. Do remember that cloak gets nerfed in HotS to have a fixed duration with a cooldown. You dont have it available whenever you want (and the energy is there) AND you need several snipes for an Infestor, but one Fungal Growth will reveal the whole pack of Ghosts and keep them in place to be killed by Zerglings. So:

- EMP: deals no direct damage and prevents damage if hit correctly
- Fungal Growth: deals damage, locks down AND reveals cloaked units

So please dont start saying "but you can EMP" ... only one or two Fungal Growths will be the death of the Ghosts due to revealing them and locking them down, while an EMP still lets you withdraw your Infestors ... and since the Zerg is usually the more mobile army that wont be a problem.


You talk as though that Ghosts don't have snipe/nukes/cloak.

And yes, Nukes are incredibly useful late game.

Stop talking as if ghosts are absolutely useless compared to infestors. They are different, not worse. If you get an EMP off on infestors those infestors are useless for ages while a fungal on a group of units doesn't mean death, especially when there are 8 medivacs healing them.

Also if you are losing stuff to fungals you are walking to far away from your siege tanks with your marines.



While he is understating the usefulness of ghosts and, yes, they are different: ghosts are worse than infestors. Considerably so.
Suffer the pain of discipline or suffer the pain of regret
Prev 1 17 18 19 20 21 48 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 12h 43m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nathanias 215
StarCraft: Brood War
ivOry 10
Dota 2
monkeys_forever809
League of Legends
Dendi917
syndereN152
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1537
Stewie2K1005
Super Smash Bros
Liquid`Ken54
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu598
Other Games
summit1g8099
FrodaN3245
tarik_tv1803
C9.Mang0208
PPMD37
ViBE10
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 56
• davetesta49
• musti20045 39
• Kozan
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 48
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• TFBlade579
Other Games
• imaqtpie1592
• Shiphtur408
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
12h 43m
Serral vs Cure
Solar vs Classic
OSC
15h 43m
CranKy Ducklings
1d 11h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 15h
CSO Cup
1d 17h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 19h
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.