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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. |
On August 19 2012 13:27 ZAiNs wrote:
it's clear the Raven buff isn't intended to fix any current problems. Blizzard wants to give the community a lot of time to try and figure things out. The Raven buff is just intended to be a small nudge before Blizzard decides whether there actually is a problem or not.
100% agree
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Well Avilo when you confront an army with 15 ravens...you tell me what to do. 
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On August 19 2012 13:27 ZAiNs wrote:
Avilo gets some flak but this is a pretty good write-up. Though to me it's clear the Raven buff isn't intended to fix any current problems. Blizzard wants to give the community a lot of time to try and figure things out. The Raven buff is just intended to be a small nudge before Blizzard decides whether there actually is a problem or not.
beautiful answer
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I agree with your points and im a zerg player. I especially like how you discuss the overlord change as being necessary. It's hard to say how the game will turn out though because sc2 is still only 1/3 complete. It would be interesting to see some sort of upgrade involving raven energy.
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Yes well I guess there is no end to Terran whining, unless of course they get back the OP status they held for two years then everything will be okay when all they have to do is faceroll on their keyboard to win just like they used to. How about you guys just attempt to figure out new strategies that will work with the current meta game rather then just the same old strats that are now bum like ohhhh Marine Tank cause just like the other two races you actually have to stay current with the meta or you fall behind which is the case. Terran didn't have to change for two fucking years cause they were so clearly the most powerful of the three races far and away it wasn't even close but now cause they've been brought down to a mortal level like Zerg and Protoss they have to actually start formulating new strategies, not something Terrans had to do before hence why they refuse to now.
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On August 19 2012 13:27 ZAiNs wrote:
Avilo gets some flak but this is a pretty good write-up. Though to me it's clear the Raven buff isn't intended to fix any current problems. Blizzard wants to give the community a lot of time to try and figure things out. The Raven buff is just intended to be a small nudge before Blizzard decides whether there actually is a problem or not.
pretty much agree here. I think (only diamond league here so take it with a grain of salt) that maybe reducing the energy cost for hsm a little would be a big help. Or make the corvid reactor add just a little bit more starting energy.
But I agree that any changes like that outta be down the road.
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IdrA said something like this (Sotg episode 37, at 45"45'): ~zerg either need better scouting OR a build that can defend most of the aggressions thrown at the zergs. Blizzard gave both of those to zerg wich is in my opinion too much. The queen change allow a state of 15 min NR ( as a spectator standpoints it's quite boring ).
Another thing to put in the balance is the maps. They allow almost a guaranteed third base with few attack points and easely defend.
Also using the Korean win ratio doesn't work because koreans have lots of time to prepare for each opponent.
In my opinion the game should be balanced in priority for Progaming level but also a little bit bellow to keep people playing or at least not make everybody wich they played zerg.
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On August 19 2012 14:10 Catatonic wrote:
Yes well I guess there is no end to Terran whining, unless of course they get back the OP status they held for two years then everything will be okay when all they have to do is faceroll on their keyboard to win just like they used to. How about you guys just attempt to figure out new strategies that will work with the current meta game rather then just the same old strats that are now bum like ohhhh Marine Tank cause just like the other two races you actually have to stay current with the meta or you fall behind which is the case. Terran didn't have to change for two fucking years cause they were so clearly the most powerful of the three races far and away it wasn't even close but now cause they've been brought down to a mortal level like Zerg and Protoss they have to actually start formulating new strategies, not something Terrans had to do before hence why they refuse to now.
Terrans actually did come up with new strategies. But Zergs didn't want to adapt and so each one was nerfed within a month of it being a "problem".
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On August 19 2012 14:10 Catatonic wrote:
Yes well I guess there is no end to Terran whining, unless of course they get back the OP status they held for two years then everything will be okay when all they have to do is faceroll on their keyboard to win just like they used to. How about you guys just attempt to figure out new strategies that will work with the current meta game rather then just the same old strats that are now bum like ohhhh Marine Tank cause just like the other two races you actually have to stay current with the meta or you fall behind which is the case. Terran didn't have to change for two fucking years cause they were so clearly the most powerful of the three races far and away it wasn't even close but now cause they've been brought down to a mortal level like Zerg and Protoss they have to actually start formulating new strategies, not something Terrans had to do before hence why they refuse to now.
You, my friend, are quite ignorant. As I said in one of my previous posts, Terrans (High Level Terrans) in most cases have better overall mechanics than most of the other races considering how everything works with terran. No one uses marine tank no more because no one is stupid. Once zerg player got off their whinny asses and started using infestors, then terran players had to either get a ton of tanks (which was hard countered by broodlords which were a common follow up), or just not use tanks at all and go pure bio (which is terrible to use unless you have amazing macro and micro).
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I agree, while buffing raven speed may help, it is not addressing the bigger issues here.
Also I'll leave a little comment on how I don't exactly like the design of being able to chain fungals together, it's just something I feel is "too extreme", if you will (though there are other things, intense to watch or not, like NP'ing a mothership and etc.)
But anyways, I think reverting the old old nerf of Seeker Missile from range 9 to 6 may help the problem. Actually, I'm not sure why they nerfed the range actually. Did they nerf it overall because, since the game did not develop much yet (since it was so long ago), so instead of nerfing something specific they nerfed both the range and the splash? Or did they nerf it because they did not like the idea of Infestors not being able to counter Ravens?
Is it perhaps time that they may need to revert what could be decided to be a mistake of a change? I think so. (Just found out, NP used to be range 7 from beta, this was changed to 9 as we know and then reverted again. So there's quite a lot of reverting).
(Also interesting to note I think, is that the seeker missile was nerfed back when you could still cast abilities while being fungal'd. Did they perhaps simply not spend enough time thinking about how this change would effect the Infestor vs Raven dynamic when they patched fungal to disallow you from using abilities?)
Another thing: If you look at the patch changes for the seeker missile, when the range and radius were nerfed, it was buffed in one way -- it didn't need Fusion Core anymore. So obviously, they were probably thinking "Ok, you need to spend way too much money/time to make Ravens worth it and usable at their full power, so let's scale down the power of the seeker missile, but to compensate, you don't need so much tech anymore). Perhaps they may decide that they need to changing the scaling (AKA, not just change Raven speed).
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On August 19 2012 11:19 blade55555 wrote:
Ya they are and Korean terrans are saying tvz is fine.
This.
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On August 19 2012 14:15 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 14:10 Catatonic wrote:
Yes well I guess there is no end to Terran whining, unless of course they get back the OP status they held for two years then everything will be okay when all they have to do is faceroll on their keyboard to win just like they used to. How about you guys just attempt to figure out new strategies that will work with the current meta game rather then just the same old strats that are now bum like ohhhh Marine Tank cause just like the other two races you actually have to stay current with the meta or you fall behind which is the case. Terran didn't have to change for two fucking years cause they were so clearly the most powerful of the three races far and away it wasn't even close but now cause they've been brought down to a mortal level like Zerg and Protoss they have to actually start formulating new strategies, not something Terrans had to do before hence why they refuse to now. You, my friend, are quite ignorant. As I said in one of my previous posts, Terrans (High Level Terrans) in most cases have better overall mechanics than most of the other races considering how everything works with terran. No one uses marine tank no more because no one is stupid. Once zerg player got off their whinny asses and started using infestors, then terran players had to either get a ton of tanks (which was hard countered by broodlords which were a common follow up), or just not use tanks at all and go pure bio (which is terrible to use unless you have amazing macro and micro).
Marine tank medivac is the best unit combination against a zerg who doesn't have hive tech units. Maybe add a whiff of thors vs muta (particularly if the flock is getting huge) and maybe some marauders vs infestor tech to lead the charge and pre-empt Ultralisks but the main thing is Marine tank medivac > Zerg pre-hive. If he has no mutalisks you can drop effectively. If he has no creep then tanks are going to hurt. If he has no banelings then marines will make a horrible mess of everything. If he has a good spread of tanks in range of a hatchery then zerg are gonna have a really fun time removing that army.
Once they start adding hive tech the composition looks a bit shitty but until then it's the strongest thing Terran can do in the mu imo.
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On August 19 2012 14:24 iaguz wrote:
Marine tank medivac is the best unit combination against a zerg who doesn't have hive tech units. Maybe add a whiff of thors vs muta (particularly if the flock is getting huge) and maybe some marauders vs infestor tech to lead the charge and pre-empt Ultralisks but the main thing is Marine tank medivac > Zerg pre-hive. If he has no mutalisks you can drop effectively. If he has no creep then tanks are going to hurt. If he has no banelings then marines will make a horrible mess of everything. If he has a good spread of tanks in range of a hatchery then zerg are gonna have a really fun time removing that army.
Once they start adding hive tech the composition looks a bit shitty but until then it's the strongest thing Terran can do in the mu imo.
The problem is that there is only 1 possible timing attack with it that hits in like a 1-2 minute window before hive units are out. Oh and the creep is halfway across the map so your push gets very slowed down.
Assuming zerg is playing ling infestor.
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Your push only has to reach his 4th. If you can kill his 4th and get a 4th going yourself simultaneously, it does make late game a lot easier because you can transition to counter whatever he is doing and without a 4th he can't do a lot of it. This is what Taeja does every TvZ and it does tend to work out quite nicely for him.
If he has creeped up that far then you've fucked something up.
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Decent writeup, i dont understand why people didnt actually read it before giving him shit. Part of the reason is the queen range as stated, yes, but creep change does not address the real problem in the form of the recede speed for creep. One slip up and forgetting to check an expansion for roughly 30 seconds results in it being untakeable for a in game minute, for only the investment of one overlord. And even with a maxed army there's absolutely nothing you can do about him slowing your economy down while keeping his up. What i dont understand is the amount of unforgiving demand of good play from the terran side, (I.E not being able to do anything about creep blocking once you forget to check for the overlord one time, fungal hitting your units and absolutely nothing you can do about chain fungal/baneling hits, micro missteps resulting in entire army losses) while most of the zerg's(even the some of the pro players) are free to put everything in one control group(including infestors) and move it all forward.
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On August 19 2012 14:24 iaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 14:15 LgNKami wrote:On August 19 2012 14:10 Catatonic wrote:
Yes well I guess there is no end to Terran whining, unless of course they get back the OP status they held for two years then everything will be okay when all they have to do is faceroll on their keyboard to win just like they used to. How about you guys just attempt to figure out new strategies that will work with the current meta game rather then just the same old strats that are now bum like ohhhh Marine Tank cause just like the other two races you actually have to stay current with the meta or you fall behind which is the case. Terran didn't have to change for two fucking years cause they were so clearly the most powerful of the three races far and away it wasn't even close but now cause they've been brought down to a mortal level like Zerg and Protoss they have to actually start formulating new strategies, not something Terrans had to do before hence why they refuse to now. You, my friend, are quite ignorant. As I said in one of my previous posts, Terrans (High Level Terrans) in most cases have better overall mechanics than most of the other races considering how everything works with terran. No one uses marine tank no more because no one is stupid. Once zerg player got off their whinny asses and started using infestors, then terran players had to either get a ton of tanks (which was hard countered by broodlords which were a common follow up), or just not use tanks at all and go pure bio (which is terrible to use unless you have amazing macro and micro). Marine tank medivac is the best unit combination against a zerg who doesn't have hive tech units. Maybe add a whiff of thors vs muta (particularly if the flock is getting huge) and maybe some marauders vs infestor tech to lead the charge and pre-empt Ultralisks but the main thing is Marine tank medivac > Zerg pre-hive. If he has no mutalisks you can drop effectively. If he has no creep then tanks are going to hurt. If he has no banelings then marines will make a horrible mess of everything. If he has a good spread of tanks in range of a hatchery then zerg are gonna have a really fun time removing that army. Once they start adding hive tech the composition looks a bit shitty but until then it's the strongest thing Terran can do in the mu imo.
You are right about the Marine-Tank before hive thing but its like, if you are going vs muta-ling-bling, marine tank is sooooooo good. If you're going against mass ling infestor and you go marine tank, creep will be so far across the map that by the time you get out of your base and start killing it, you will be facing 2/2 lings and about 8-10 infestors who dont care much for armor. Plus if the zerg is already on 3+ bases, they can afford to trade x amount of lings for big portions of you army because when hive tech comes, you will have y amount of units which will probably be less than the x amount that you already lost to the low for the low cost of about 30-40 supply of lings (which is nothing btw to a zerg thats on 3 or more bases).
On August 19 2012 14:32 DougJDempsey wrote:
Decent writeup, i dont understand why people didnt actually read it before giving him shit. Part of the reason is the queen range as stated, yes, but creep change does not address the real problem in the form of the recede speed for creep. One slip up and forgetting to check an expansion for roughly 30 seconds results in it being untakeable for a in game minute, for only the investment of one overlord. And even with a maxed army there's absolutely nothing you can do about him slowing your economy down while keeping his up. What i dont understand is the amount of unforgiving demand of good play from the terran side, (I.E not being able to do anything about creep blocking once you forget to check for the overlord one time, fungal hitting your units and absolutely nothing you can do about chain fungal/baneling hits, micro missteps resulting in entire army losses) while most of the zerg's(even the some of the pro players) are free to put everything in one control group(including infestors) and move it all forward.
^^ this too
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On August 19 2012 13:58 mierin wrote:Well Avilo when you confront an army with 15 ravens...you tell me what to do.
fungal
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On August 19 2012 14:37 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 13:58 mierin wrote:Well Avilo when you confront an army with 15 ravens...you tell me what to do. fungal
But you need like, 5 infestors for that.
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A zerg going ling/festor has no drop protection. Load up a medivac or two and drop them somewhere right as you're pushing. The zerg will inevitably pull everything back to answer this huge threat. Use this time to move your army right up to a hatchery. He won't fungal it because he cannot engage it with infestors he cannot go near it. Scan ahead as you're doing this and even stim a few marines in front of the main army if you're still worried. This is how you get position on an infestor player.
If his upgrades are really that far ahead of yours it's quite possible your build sucks. Either that or he's skipping banes and you're just going to have to deal with it.
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On August 19 2012 14:39 iaguz wrote:
A zerg going ling/festor has no drop protection. Load up a medivac or two and drop them somewhere right as you're pushing. The zerg will inevitably pull everything back to answer this huge threat. Use this time to move your army right up to a hatchery. He won't fungal it because he cannot engage it with infestors he cannot go near it. Scan ahead as you're doing this and even stim a few marines in front of the main army if you're still worried. This is how you get position on an infestor player.
If his upgrades are really that far ahead of yours it's quite possible your build sucks. Either that or he's skipping banes and you're just going to have to deal with it.
You do realize that whenever a zerg player goes for ling infestor, they tend to get a ton of static defense at all of their bases right?
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EPT
