EPTHowever, I will say I hate any spells that prevent micro and movement. Both fungal and FF. I really wish the game wasn't balanced around those two spells.
[D] The raven buff does not address TvZ issues - Page 6
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jj33
802 Posts
However, I will say I hate any spells that prevent micro and movement. Both fungal and FF. I really wish the game wasn't balanced around those two spells. | ||
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Lavit2099
United States390 Posts
Even without these Raven changes, MVP just destroyed almost the entirety of NesTea's air army with 3 HSM's. Terran are winning games off of Zerg. They're not dominating them like they used to, which I think is Blizzard's intended results. Did I miss in the text any suggestions on changes except for nerfing queens? The Raven speed helps you zip in, drop your AT/PDD/HSM and gtfo from the fungals. I also think Blizzard is wanting Terran to use Ghosts late game against both Protoss and Zerg. It seems that after the snipe nerf Terrans have decided that Ghosts aren't worth using/making anymore because you can't spam-snipe and decimate an entire flock of Broodlords. I am curious, OP, your thoughts on possible fixes to this without nerfing Zerg or buffing Terran to an unbalanced level. | ||
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Luepert
United States1933 Posts
On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup. Nerchio 2-0 over Puma. Nerchio 2-0 over ForGG. Moonglade 2-0 over Bomber. Vortix 3-0 over ForGG. Vortix 3-2 over supernova. Foreign zergs were never known to take out Code S Korean Terrans en masse before 1.5... | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On August 19 2012 12:52 Lavit2099 wrote: If would be nice to see these issues brought up by someone else. It seems that no matter what Blizzard does some posters are never happy. The sad part is it keeps coming back to "queens too strong, two hellions can't contain Zerg anymore." Even without these Raven changes, MVP just destroyed almost the entirety of NesTea's air army with 3 HSM's. Terran are winning games off of Zerg. They're not dominating them like they used to, which I think is Blizzard's intended results. Did I miss in the text any suggestions on changes except for nerfing queens? The Raven speed helps you zip in, drop your AT/PDD/HSM and gtfo from the fungals. I also think Blizzard is wanting Terran to use Ghosts late game against both Protoss and Zerg. It seems that after the snipe nerf Terrans have decided that Ghosts aren't worth using/making anymore because you can't spam-snipe and decimate an entire flock of Broodlords. I am curious, OP, your thoughts on possible fixes to this without nerfing Zerg or buffing Terran to an unbalanced level. If 1 fungal lands you are chain fungalled. There is no "escape" if you get fungalled by a good player. Speed does not matter vs a stun spell. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On August 19 2012 12:53 Luepert wrote: Nerchio 2-0 over Puma. Nerchio 2-0 over ForGG. Moonglade 2-0 over Bomber. Vortix 3-0 over ForGG. Vortix 3-2 over supernova. Foreign zergs were never known to take out Code S Korean Terrans en masse before 1.5... You don't know Stephano, do you? I think the Queen Range change went too far in buffing Zerg. The Queen used to be a good anti-air unit that could add a bit of ground firepower. Now in ZvT in particular she is a front line all purpose defensive unit. A walking Photon Cannon if you will. | ||
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
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System42
172 Posts
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Sovern
United States312 Posts
On August 19 2012 12:30 vthree wrote: That is like saying proxy 11/11 is not all-in since you force Zerg units early on and straight up kill a Zerg that can't defend properly. I am sure it works if the Zerg is not ready for it but it is an all-in. Even if the zerg is ready for 4 rax before CC you're slowing down the pace of the game and gaining control of the early to mid game as you will have way more units than him. Foreigners view heavily aggressive builds as all in too much and expect everyone to just go 1 rax fe. I guess we should all call reactor factory all in too because if you don't kill drones or deny creep you pretty much die as the zerg will be ahead economically. Going 4 rax's even if the zerg knows it WILL force zerg to invest in a lot of defense and/or a lot of units and it forces zerg to delay their third significantly and prepare for your attack as you will have way more units than him. I'd rather die in the early game from failed marine micro or decision making vs losing due to zerg having a better late game army composition. I'd rather lose early game any day of the week as you know its because you fucked up somehow vs losing due to imbalance. | ||
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bhfberserk
Canada390 Posts
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System42
172 Posts
On August 19 2012 12:53 Luepert wrote: Nerchio 2-0 over Puma. Nerchio 2-0 over ForGG. Moonglade 2-0 over Bomber. Vortix 3-0 over ForGG. Vortix 3-2 over supernova. Foreign zergs were never known to take out Code S Korean Terrans en masse before 1.5... LOL so what zergs can never beat korean terrans is that what you are saying h ow about the Kas 2-0 Nestea how about the 82% winrate in tvz for taeja how about in the plast 3 tournys terrans have been doing really well what you said is stupid. | ||
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BamBam
745 Posts
But yet, here we have a unit which has a great investment attributed to it in order to function properly and it still falls short in situations which it theoretically would be the correct move. After all, 125 energy for the HSM is A LOT and forces the spell to be limited in use by once per 2/3 minutes. But in reality the damage it gives in exchange is rather pitiful - assuming the HSM lands. The reason the raven is shied away from and laughed at is because of its energy cost/damage output. There is just no logical reason to spend exorpandent amount of gas on a unit that can’t deliver. Then when you factor in the resource cost to acquire the unit it becomes rather ludicrous. For every raven there could of potentially of been 2 medivas, 1 thor or 1.5 tanks. In fact the only reliable and approvable use for the Raven in tvz would be auto turret harass, and even then thats usually thwarted rather quickly, which would make banshees a far more appealing choice. | ||
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BanditX
United States78 Posts
This is one part the mapmakers fault, one part unit/race design, and one part direct nerfs/buffs. At launch, the maps were much smaller, allowing Terran and Protoss to relatively easily and safely keep the exponential growth of Zerg at bay. But the community dictated that maps should be bigger so we can see macro games. Zerg became safer, but Terran and Protoss were still able to keep them honest. That didn't last long, the commonunity didn't want to see all-ins all the time, Zergs cried the hardest, and Blizzard listened. Secondly, Infestors went from being never used, to being able to counter every unit in the game. Fungal Growth went from an 8 second duration and a fair amount of damage, to a 4 second duration with bonus to armored, and finally to a 4 second duration with a buffed damage increase against all units. It's also instant and unescapable unlike EMP which you can spread in reaction to, and Psionic Storm which you can move out of. Pretend for a minute that Psi Storm stunned whatever you hit for the duration its on the ground. Does that sound fair? Not really. Luckily it doesn't stun, and High Templar are slow as molasses and can't go invisible. Infestors on the other hand serve as a "catch all" unit against everything in the game. Sure you can build Mutalisks, but if they don't win you the game, some combination with Infestors is your follow up. Ghosts played a similar role, giving Terran the fire power they needed to deal with Zerg fast tech changes while Terran build appropriate counter units, but Ghosts were nerfed to the ground, leaving Terran with their horrible rate of production vs an ever changing Zerg composition backboned by the Infestor. This is I feel is the problem with Zerg and why ZvP and ZvT are mostly uninteresting, but for the sake of investigation, lets examine some other Zerg units. I would like to address the Brood Lord. It is a flying siege unit that fires surrogate units to do damage, very much similar in thought to Carriers. However, Brood Lords don't take three and a half in game minutes to build, their surrogate units stay out and attack when you move them away from danger, (unlike the Carrier), their surrogate units benefit from ground melee upgrades, and they handily follow along Zergs linear tech tree, and the units you get from the Spire tech are all applicable, whereas Stargate tech is extremely situational. Broodlings do an initial amount of damage based upon the level of air attack the Brood Lord is currently at. However, while they are on the ground, they benefit from Zergs current level of melee attack upgrades. The Zergling is the most produced Zerg unit in any match up that isn't ZvZ, so you are obviously getting upgrades for them. So what this means, is that your your +2 melee attack benefits Zerglings, Banelings, Broodlings, and if your Brood Lords fail, Ultralisks also benefit from it. Carriers and Interceptors on the other hand, only benefit from air attack upgrades with interceptors being recalled if you move the Carrier. I'm sure if Broodlings didn't benefit from double upgrades, didn't clutter ground space, and returned to the Brood Lord when you used them, people would laugh at the Brood Lord. And finally I want to talk about Corruptors. Corruptors are very much in the same vein as Vikings. You build them to kill things in the air. And while Vikings do a good job with their wonderful kiting, Corruptors have a base of 2 armor, bonus vs massive units, an ability that causes them to do extra damage to targets of their choosing, and can morph into more Brood Lords. That's the same amount of armor a Carrier starts with, (for half the cost/build time) a self damage increasing ability that doesn't need to be researched, and the ability to turn into a useful unit when they are no longer needed. The only downside of a Corruptor is that it cannot attack ground units. It can't even be kited when paired with Fungal Growth. Corruptors are beating everything else in the air except maybe fully charged Void Rays. Corruptors are just too good for their cost. This is way I feel Zerg is too good right now. TL;DR - Being unable to punish Zergs for quick 3 hatches is bad. Fungal Growth does too much damage for a spell that can be chained into itself. It either chains, or does a lot of damage, but should not do both. Broodlings benefiting both ground and air attack ugrades is too powerful. The linearity of the Zerg tech tree only encourages this. Broodlings cluttering up ground space and not returning like Interceptors is too powerful. Corruptors shit on every other air unit, especially when paired with Fungal Growth. | ||
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Lavit2099
United States390 Posts
On August 19 2012 12:53 avilo wrote: If 1 fungal lands you are chain fungalled. There is no "escape" if you get fungalled by a good player. Speed does not matter vs a stun spell. Are you putting your entire army on one hotkey? You should be able to swing in with your Marines, send your Vikings in to attack the Corruptors before you send in the Ravens on their own group. 99% of Zergs will Fungal the first two groups and not wait just in case there might be a Raven sitting nearby. With the increased speed you could swing around from the rear better to pepper the Infestors with the HSM's. Not saying you'll get away without any losses but they'll get their job done before they die. You might enjoy the game more if you can try to think of ways to adapt to the rules as compared to trying to fight against them. Blizzard will look at ladder and tournament results for any possible changes. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 19 2012 12:53 Luepert wrote: Nerchio 2-0 over Puma. Nerchio 2-0 over ForGG. Moonglade 2-0 over Bomber. Vortix 3-0 over ForGG. Vortix 3-2 over supernova. Foreign zergs were never known to take out Code S Korean Terrans en masse before 1.5... Moonglade 2-0 over Bomber is actually ridiculous when you think about it. Moonglade is a solid Z player but he was never known to have the capabilities to take on top level foreign Terrans let alone a Code-S level Terran like Bomber who is macro oriented. And yet he 2-0'd Bomber quite easily. On August 19 2012 13:02 System42 wrote: LOL so what zergs can never beat korean terrans is that what you are saying h ow about the Kas 2-0 Nestea how about the 82% winrate in tvz for taeja how about in the plast 3 tournys terrans have been doing really well what you said is stupid. TvZ is Nestea's weakest match-up by far (he's lost to quite a few subpar Terran pros before) and he played that match against Kas really bad. | ||
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yurta
Canada91 Posts
On August 19 2012 12:53 Luepert wrote: Nerchio 2-0 over Puma. Nerchio 2-0 over ForGG. Moonglade 2-0 over Bomber. Vortix 3-0 over ForGG. Vortix 3-2 over supernova. Foreign zergs were never known to take out Code S Korean Terrans en masse before 1.5... Lets go with this, Nerchio is a wild card and alot of koreans are not use to his play style on top of the fact that he is extremely talented. He only beat Puma / ForGG which is not as big of a feat as the upper class terrans such as Taeja, MKP, MVP and so forth in Korea. Moonglade is moonglade, just a beast. Again Vortix is a relative unknown I personally had never even seen him play till IEM and he beat ForGG he basically threw all 3 games with his mass CC builds ( 5 command centres before you land your third is ubsurd ). He took out supernova 3-2 that seems pretty close, however I did not see the games so I do not know what took place. Using IEM as your soul basis of criteria is ignorant is basically the point. Especially when the sample size of Zerg skill to Terran skill already favours the Zergs. | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On August 19 2012 13:08 yurta wrote: Lets go with this, Nerchio is a wild card and alot of koreans are not use to his play style on top of the fact that he is extremely talented. He only beat Puma / ForGG which is not as big of a feat as the upper class terrans such as Taeja, MKP, MVP and so forth in Korea. Moonglade is moonglade, just a beast. Again Vortix is a relative unknown I personally had never even seen him play till IEM and he beat ForGG he basically threw all 3 games with his mass CC builds ( 5 command centres before you land your third is ubsurd ). He took out supernova 3-2 that seems pretty close, however I did not see the games so I do not know what took place. Using IEM as your soul basis of criteria is ignorant is basically the point. Especially when the sample size of Zerg skill to Terran skill already favours the Zergs. He also didn't happen to mention that Supernova 2-1'd Vortix, ForGG is actually not a good Terran anymore and that Nerchio is insanely strong. What about MVP or Kas? etc etc etc, this is really biased information. | ||
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Silentenigma
Turkey2037 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 19 2012 13:08 yurta wrote: Lets go with this, Nerchio is a wild card and alot of koreans are not use to his play style on top of the fact that he is extremely talented. He only beat Puma / ForGG which is not as big of a feat as the upper class terrans such as Taeja, MKP, MVP and so forth in Korea. Moonglade is moonglade, just a beast. Again Vortix is a relative unknown I personally had never even seen him play till IEM and he beat ForGG he basically threw all 3 games with his mass CC builds ( 5 command centres before you land your third is ubsurd ). He took out supernova 3-2 that seems pretty close, however I did not see the games so I do not know what took place. Using IEM as your soul basis of criteria is ignorant is basically the point. Especially when the sample size of Zerg skill to Terran skill already favours the Zergs. Puma/ForGG are both extremely good players. And ForGG played super greedy because he had to; otherwise there's no keeping up with a Z player. And Moonglade is good, but he is not a beast. Far from it. Certainly not capable of 2-0ing Bomber who used to have one of the strongest late game TvZ/TvP's out of all the Terran players. QUOTE]On August 19 2012 13:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Apparently Avilo didn't watch MVP making lategame Ravens just fine and absolutely crushing entire maxed zerg armies with 10 HSM's. I swear, [D] bullshit threads should get knocked down when they're created, they're just asking for Blizzard to make the game balanced at their level. On August 19 2012 13:08 yurta wrote: Lets go with this, Nerchio is a wild card and alot of koreans are not use to his play style on top of the fact that he is extremely talented. He only beat Puma / ForGG which is not as big of a feat as the upper class terrans such as Taeja, MKP, MVP and so forth in Korea. Moonglade is moonglade, just a beast. Again Vortix is a relative unknown I personally had never even seen him play till IEM and he beat ForGG he basically threw all 3 games with his mass CC builds ( 5 command centres before you land your third is ubsurd ). He took out supernova 3-2 that seems pretty close, however I did not see the games so I do not know what took place. Using IEM as your soul basis of criteria is ignorant is basically the point. Especially when the sample size of Zerg skill to Terran skill already favours the Zergs. He also didn't happen to mention that Supernova 2-1'd Vortix, ForGG is actually not a good Terran anymore and that Nerchio is insanely strong. What about MVP or Kas? etc etc etc, this is really biased information.[/QUOTE] MVP and Kas both beat Nestea in long drawn out matches where Nestea had ample time to win, and also could have won easily. He played both Metro maps terribly, and he is known to play stalemate situations/split map situations very poorly. | ||
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Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
Zerg is not overpowered by anymeans, its just that Terran has always been balanced based off of the Highest level of play from High level Popular Korean Terran players. Now that everything has been nerfed into the ground for terran, only the players with the best mechanics will win. I know that the only way I win games now is simply by having better mechanics and making less mistakes (in TvZ). Hell, there are games in which Terran players (even Code S koreans) have lost games to zerg players even though they clearly have better mechanics. | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
Mvp does the Ghost Snipe Trick... After only a few games, Snipe is nerfed. Then Blizzard does this Queen buff... now Terrans have trouble with Brood Lord/Corrupter/Infestor. Despite an immediate drop in winrates and persisting lowered winrates, Terrans are told to innovate and nothing changes for months. Now, I'm not saying that's bad... Terrans should innovate, innovation is always good and Terran might find a way to balance TvZ once more. However, Zerg never really got a change to innovate... I want to see the Snipe nerf reverted, just to see how the metagame plays out. Maybe it'll be horribly imbalanced, maybe Zerg will find a way to overcome it. Either way, I'd just like to see how it develops because I'm sure that a lot of people felt like the nerf was too soon. | ||
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