On August 19 2012 12:10 Sovern wrote: TvZ is fine right now in my opinion and this is coming from a masters terran. Terrans just need to learn to play more aggressive and cash in on the strengths of terrans early game capibilitys in how well their units are when microed and they need to go back to heavy aggression early openers that apply direct pressure vs this fast expand into fast third bullshit that terrans consider to be good.
Zergs role is to macro hard, terrans is polar opposite, to be aggressive. So if you see a zerg fast expanding like they typically do you should be planting down 4 rax's, applying direct pressure to force units or else the zerg risks losing right away, while expanding after 4 rax's try adding 6 more rax's while grabbing stim and cs. Try this build, I haven't lost a TvZ yet with it as it constantly forces units and with decent marine micro you can straight up kill zergs that go for a third before having a high infestor count.
On August 19 2012 12:10 Sovern wrote: TvZ is fine right now in my opinion and this is coming from a masters terran. Terrans just need to learn to play more aggressive and cash in on the strengths of terrans early game capibilitys in how well their units are when microed and they need to go back to heavy aggression early openers that apply direct pressure vs this fast expand into fast third bullshit that terrans consider to be good.
Zergs role is to macro hard, terrans is polar opposite, to be aggressive. So if you see a zerg fast expanding like they typically do you should be planting down 4 rax's, applying direct pressure to force units or else the zerg risks losing right away, while expanding after 4 rax's try adding 6 more rax's while grabbing stim and cs. Try this build, I haven't lost a TvZ yet with it as it constantly forces units and with decent marine micro you can straight up kill zergs that go for a third before having a high infestor count.
Isn't 4 rax pretty much an all-in?
yes its completely all-in if you manage to do enough damage you can expand behind it but you have to constantly pressure until one of you has to GG
On August 19 2012 11:45 .Sic. wrote: Why did a lot of the terrans stop getting ghosts for EMP and snipe vs infestors (I've seen a few like gumiho)? I know that protoss players try to actively feedback vs infestors or storm them.
I think one of the issues with ghosts vs infestors is that fungals can hit cloaked ghosts with fungals. So in big engagements, fungals is actually better due to the size of infestors. Even if infestors are clumped up, it takes quite a few EMPs to land while it takes 1-2 fungals to nap all the ghosts. Also, if enemy has overseers, your ghosts are just so much harder to retain while infestors can stay in the back and usually get away. zergs have been a lot better with their infestor control and retention.
ive seen one EMP get majoritty of the infesters of a Zerg, infesters clump up pretty nicely and we need all th energy we can get so even removing 2/3rd of the infesters can pretty mcuh gurantee you win the next engagement if your smart at it
It takes 2 EMPs to remove fungal. You only need about 3-4 fungals to adequately accentuate your force for the duration of an engagement; I'd be surprised if a battle lasted longer than that. Also with the lower EMP radius, you really can't hit 2/3 of the infestors if they are maxed and have the appropriate ratio in their composition.
On August 19 2012 11:45 .Sic. wrote: Why did a lot of the terrans stop getting ghosts for EMP and snipe vs infestors (I've seen a few like gumiho)? I know that protoss players try to actively feedback vs infestors or storm them.
I think one of the issues with ghosts vs infestors is that fungals can hit cloaked ghosts with fungals. So in big engagements, fungals is actually better due to the size of infestors. Even if infestors are clumped up, it takes quite a few EMPs to land while it takes 1-2 fungals to nap all the ghosts. Also, if enemy has overseers, your ghosts are just so much harder to retain while infestors can stay in the back and usually get away. zergs have been a lot better with their infestor control and retention.
ive seen one EMP get majoritty of the infesters of a Zerg, infesters clump up pretty nicely and we need all th energy we can get so even removing 2/3rd of the infesters can pretty mcuh gurantee you win the next engagement if your smart at it
It takes 2 EMPs to remove fungal. You only need about 3-4 fungals to adequately accentuate your force for the duration of an engagement; I'd be surprised if a battle lasted longer than that. Also with the lower EMP radius, you really can't hit 2/3 of the infestors if they are maxed and have the appropriate ratio in their composition.
3-4 fungals does not destroy an entire Terran army...
3-4 fungals barely kills 2 small clumps of marines
On August 19 2012 11:37 Mr Showtime wrote: I'm sorry that you're not a good player and can't win a TvZ. Korean Terrans are having fewer and fewer problem against Zerg and the win rate is nearly at 50/50 over the past month or so. No, the patch won't make the Raven more viable, but in the current state of TvZ it doesn't really need to be. More practice and fewer walls of text might help fix your problems that others aren't having.
Vortix is a good player, dont know about Bomber...
I kind of agree with the OP stated, in all seriousness what is a speed buff going to do to help Ravens The whole balance between TvZ is kind of in a reform right now, we have to wait a bit more and see how the metagame changes and if Terran will adapt. In my own opinion I agree that Queen Range was a wrong move, and the Raven is in the current state of how the Carrier is right now~
Edit: With the way HOTS is going, it wont be released officially anytime soon, the game is in desperate need of a "Start from scratch" phase as it is just starting to look worse and worse as the Battle Reports are released~
The obnoxious thing is that It's been almost four months. Terrans have tried just about everything.
no they havent Terrans are still using the exact same opening theve been using since.... basically since TvZ was invented
there still getting fast factory and getting 4 hellions and moving out already knowing that the Zerg already has 4+ queens and is using a build specifically tailored to stopping hellion harass
now if they used those resources to jsut take a safe 3rd and follow it up with good macro play and find a powerful timing to hit instead of throwing away 400+ resources every single game maybe Terran would start to innovate
Taking a fast safe 3rd with no hellion basically cede ALL map control once speedlings are out. Zergs then can try for a bust or take the 4th. The timing (2,2? I assume since you are on 3 bases) doesn't hit until Zerg is at 80ish drones and creep is past half way on the map make any push pretty dangerous. You just cannot allow zergs to macro up with no pressure.
On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup.
a) the wall of text is discussing how a raven speed buff does nothing for the match-up, and speed does nothing to address any core issues.
b) thread is not about me personally
c) I would suggest you look at tournament results, winrates, and general trends because they disagree with your assessment.
the game doesnt need a giant change doing small things like making ravens faster and creep slower is exactly what blizz needs to do
the game is so balanced right now that a careless nerf or buff just makes it more imbalanced they need small nerfs taht are carefully thought out and tested and watched religiously
people said the same thing about warp prisoms now warp prism harass is hugely hard to deal with as Zerg
The warp prism buff was not small; that buff was so big that the protoss pros on STOG said it was likely excessive such that more attention would be drawn to the unit, and the increase would likely be dimmed down a bit after testing.
Fungal Growth was a lot better when it slowed. Having it lock units in place is just too good.
I think if it locks units in place, it should not do damage. Just think: Locking Stalkers in place, allowing Brood Lords to kill them off... or locking Marines in place, locking Vikings in place, you name it. This is already insanely good.
On the other hand, if it does damage, it should slow units.
I feel like Fungal Growth punishes the mistakes of Terran too hard. It's like the Siege Tank... if you walk into a huge line of Siege Tanks, you'll pay the price for your mistake. However, Fungal Growth isn't just limited to the ground and the Infestor has mobility. If you fly your Vikings or blink your Stalkers or move your Mutas, Fungal Growth means that those units are basically dead.
Notice how I compared the Infestor to the Siege Tank in terms of punishing mistakes... Well, actually, the truth is that the Siege Tank should be compared to the Brood Lord. If your Marines go too far forward, Brood Lords will punish them. Basically, the Brood Lord AND the Infestor means that the Zerg has more ways to punish a Terran's mistake.
Also, Hunter Seeker Missle's problem is that it's use is limited to the air. That's about it... Fungal Growth is ideal for bio since they clump and they die easily, their DPS being their main good trait. However, Fungal Growth is also amazing vs. Vikings and Void Rays and any air pretty much.
On the other hand, Seeker Missle isn't very effective vs. Zerglings (they're too small/inexpensive so it's not worth it, especially in the stage of the game when you get HSM), it is mildly effective versus Roaches but Roaches are so mass-producable that you'll need LOTS of HSM. Plus, Roaches can split pretty well, especially with Roach speed. HSM isn't effective versus Ultralisks. It might be useful versus Banelings... HSM's main purpose is the air. Yet Zerg is so good at tech switching into ground at any moment.
I think it's sad that Zerg has the unit with the most flexibility (Infestor). On the other hand, Terran is the least flexible of the races... yet they have to face Zerg, who has the greatest ability to tech switch. Terran needs an all-purpose unit like the Infestor (Ghost was this unit before it got nerfed) to deal with all the tech switches. On the other hand, Zerg doesn't need a unit like that. If Terran uses Sky Terran, Zerg can make 20 Corrupters at once. If Sky Terran dies and Terran creates a large bio army, Zerg can make 100 lings and 30 banelings and 20 roaches. They can tech switch so fast it's not even funny.
Summary of my points: 1. If Fungal Growth locks units in place, it shouldn't do damage. 2. Since Fungal Growth locks units in place, it makes it too easy for Zerg to punish Terran's mistakes. One mistake and your entire army is dead since Fungal Growth has no micro potential. 3. HSM is only really good against Zerg Air, so it's not flexible enough when the Zerg switches to ground. 4. The Infestor is an all-around unit, but the Terran needs an all-around unit more because Terran is inflexible. On the other hand, Zerg doesn't need an all-purpose unit because they can tech switch really fast.
1) Maps are a huge issue in current TvZ. The ability for Z to park their OLs at the beginning of the game to spot any kind of move out is absolutely idiotic. The amount of dead air space in some maps is ridiculous too. Remove free OL parking spots from maps, Terran all-ins/timings become alot better, and all of a sudden Z's don't play as greedy.
2) Revert Queen buff. Right now, people are pointing out that Korean T's are doing fine, except most Korean T's are also 2 basing or doing very gimmicky timings off 1 base to beat their opponents. No one goes for a macro type of game. They all go for an all-in push at some point or another. Even those that play "macro" never try to go ultra late game; they simply just go 2-2 pre Hive tech push with an absolutely all-in push that is do or die. People who point out that the Terrans are doing fine are simply wrong. They are doing "fine" statistically because they just simply all-in. Period. That's stupid gameplay and everyone here knows it. Even if it was "balanced" it certainly isn't good gameplay. If you want every match-up to look like Korean PvZ be my guest.
3) Creep OR Larvae Inject needs to be touched if Queens are to remain Queendralysks as they are. Creep spread is way too strong in conjunction with the Queen buff. It's already difficult to move out because of OLs early on that can see any kind of early timing or any kind of all-in movement; it's even more difficult that Z's can literally almost take a free third unless you just full on commit to an all-in (and even then, as long as they didn't drone too hard they should be able to hold with 4+ Queen builds and Ling/Bling). The creep spread + current larvae inject is simply too strong together against T on conjunction with the new Queens. Larvae inject lets Z drone way too hard; if it was nerfed it would lead to a much more balanced and less volatile match-up. The issue is that Z's all point out they need every single larvae to defend against current P timings; so the only way to fix it is to reduce the creep spread, while also speeding up the rate creep recedes. It's really the only way I can see this working without hurting Z too badly.
4) Although HotS mechplay looks very strong, I seriously doubt that it will have much of an impact in TvZ. The problem is that Z players are rushing straight to Hive unhindered (11/12 minute Hives + 4 fully saturated bases basically unhindered if they scout properly and deflect pressures/all-ins and play safe with good creep spread). I doubt in a Terran player's ability to get to Hive that fast, UNLESS 3 attack upgrade Battle Helions burn right through Broodlings like Archons do. If they do, then we may actually have something that might work (a combination of Battle Helions/Thors/Vikings? Don't know).
TvZ is by far my worst match-up, and it has nothing to do with the fact that I'm "bad" at the game at all. I do perfectly fine in my mirrors and TvP. TvP in fact is by far my best match-up, and what I feel as a much more entertaining match-up, especially when I am finally able to pressure and keep the P down with drops and harass while I slowly transition into BC/Ghosts on larger maps. In TvZ, I feel like there's no option for me to "harass" turtle. I just get absolutely smashed because I simply cannot keep up economically; a Z can trade completely inefficiently and still kill me eventually because I just simply lack the production and resources to keep up. It's like every game I simply have to all-in and do massive damage or just be straight up behind and pray the Z does something completely dumb like run all his Infestors into my tanks or some dumb shit like that.
On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup.
to simply ignore avilos argument simply because of who he is makes you worse than what you make him out to be. read the text first, and then if you think it's appropriate you can bash it.
That being said, there are some good points and some bad points. Some of the bad points include stating things like "if raven gets fungaled it's basically dead paperweight of 200 gas". This is a ridiculous statement that makes way too many assumptions to be correct.
First, since we are discussing the "late game" of TvZ, we can assume that there are multiple ravens out on the map, let's say 5-10 which have stockpiled a reasonable amount of energy to be considered useful in a battle. Ravens being sniped before having enough energy is a different discussion. Anyways, if you have 5-10 ravens with a good amount of energy, you will ALWAYS have enough energy to put down a couple PDD's. What these PDD's do is completely negate 2-4 corruptor volleys from doing any damage to your ravens. Thus, even if your ravens get fungaled, they would have to be either chain fungaled to death (not energy efficient) or killed by corruptors in more volleys than usual. I believe I'm correct in saying that HSM range is the same if not longer than the range of the corruptor. Thus, to kill ravens after fungaling them with corruptors does not make them "paperweights" becuase HSM is always viable against corruptors should they try to engage.
In addition, you're assuming that once the raven is fungaled, no infestor will ever get in range to be HSM'd since fungal does in fact out range it I believe. However, that's assuming that the zerg player is fungaling PERFECTLY, as in they're holding position outside of HSM range, fungaling the ravens, and always keeping the infestors out of HSM range. This is something that no pro zerg player has the time for. Even at the highest level of play, zergs will always move click their infestors closer to fungal rather than utilizing the maximum range of fungal simply because it's quicker, less time-consuming, and easier to execute than using fungal's max range 100% of the time. Therefore, even when ravens do get fungaled and chained down in place, there will almost always be infestors in range of HSM.
So to say that once ravens are fungaled they are completely useless is just a stupid and lazy argument that undermines the rest of your points. Please don't make points like that in balance discussions
On August 19 2012 12:10 Sovern wrote: TvZ is fine right now in my opinion and this is coming from a masters terran. Terrans just need to learn to play more aggressive and cash in on the strengths of terrans early game capibilitys in how well their units are when microed and they need to go back to heavy aggression early openers that apply direct pressure vs this fast expand into fast third bullshit that terrans consider to be good.
Zergs role is to macro hard, terrans is polar opposite, to be aggressive. So if you see a zerg fast expanding like they typically do you should be planting down 4 rax's, applying direct pressure to force units or else the zerg risks losing right away, while expanding after 4 rax's try adding 6 more rax's while grabbing stim and cs. Try this build, I haven't lost a TvZ yet with it as it constantly forces units and with decent marine micro you can straight up kill zergs that go for a third before having a high infestor count.
Isn't 4 rax pretty much an all-in?
4 rax before CC is not all in, you force units from the zerg early on and can straight up kill a zerg that cant defend properly but the key thing to note is that you're applying a heavy amount of pressure as you grab your cc, much more pressure than a typical 2 rax expand. You open standard 2 rax and instead of making a cc you add 2 more rax and continue to deny creep spread and apply pressure.
After I make a CC I make 4 more rax, 1 gas geyser and research stim followed by cs and you can deny early thirds in the mean time, when cs and stim complete you can go to town and deny the third, clean up creep, or normally just straight up end the game since your marine count will be crazy high.
I'm sure that this build can be expanded into a macro build such as after having 8 rax grabbing a third and getting double ebay upgrades and medivacs but right now I've been playing a heavy aggressive all in or die style (i go in with the mindset that terrans late game is the early game) and it seems to be holding up extremely well since nearly every zerg just plays greedy and drones up.
On August 19 2012 11:45 .Sic. wrote: Why did a lot of the terrans stop getting ghosts for EMP and snipe vs infestors (I've seen a few like gumiho)? I know that protoss players try to actively feedback vs infestors or storm them.
I think one of the issues with ghosts vs infestors is that fungals can hit cloaked ghosts with fungals. So in big engagements, fungals is actually better due to the size of infestors. Even if infestors are clumped up, it takes quite a few EMPs to land while it takes 1-2 fungals to nap all the ghosts. Also, if enemy has overseers, your ghosts are just so much harder to retain while infestors can stay in the back and usually get away. zergs have been a lot better with their infestor control and retention.
ive seen one EMP get majoritty of the infesters of a Zerg, infesters clump up pretty nicely and we need all th energy we can get so even removing 2/3rd of the infesters can pretty mcuh gurantee you win the next engagement if your smart at it
It takes 2 EMPs to remove fungal. You only need about 3-4 fungals to adequately accentuate your force for the duration of an engagement; I'd be surprised if a battle lasted longer than that. Also with the lower EMP radius, you really can't hit 2/3 of the infestors if they are maxed and have the appropriate ratio in their composition.
3-4 fungals does not destroy an entire Terran army...
3-4 fungals barely kills 2 small clumps of marines
Yeah because "adequately accentuate" means destroy an entire army. ROFL if you have hive tech you probably don't have only infestors at your disposal to deal with the terran force. 3-4 are enough to cripple the viking count or lock units in place such that zerg melee can get up close to where they are effective without risk of being kited.
On August 19 2012 11:45 .Sic. wrote: Why did a lot of the terrans stop getting ghosts for EMP and snipe vs infestors (I've seen a few like gumiho)? I know that protoss players try to actively feedback vs infestors or storm them.
I think one of the issues with ghosts vs infestors is that fungals can hit cloaked ghosts with fungals. So in big engagements, fungals is actually better due to the size of infestors. Even if infestors are clumped up, it takes quite a few EMPs to land while it takes 1-2 fungals to nap all the ghosts. Also, if enemy has overseers, your ghosts are just so much harder to retain while infestors can stay in the back and usually get away. zergs have been a lot better with their infestor control and retention.
ive seen one EMP get majoritty of the infesters of a Zerg, infesters clump up pretty nicely and we need all th energy we can get so even removing 2/3rd of the infesters can pretty mcuh gurantee you win the next engagement if your smart at it
It takes 2 EMPs to remove fungal. You only need about 3-4 fungals to adequately accentuate your force for the duration of an engagement; I'd be surprised if a battle lasted longer than that. Also with the lower EMP radius, you really can't hit 2/3 of the infestors if they are maxed and have the appropriate ratio in their composition.
3-4 fungals does not destroy an entire Terran army...
3-4 fungals barely kills 2 small clumps of marines
He said 3-4 fungals to adequately accentuate your forces... In most engagements, zergs only need to land 3-4 to win.
On August 19 2012 11:45 .Sic. wrote: Why did a lot of the terrans stop getting ghosts for EMP and snipe vs infestors (I've seen a few like gumiho)? I know that protoss players try to actively feedback vs infestors or storm them.
I think one of the issues with ghosts vs infestors is that fungals can hit cloaked ghosts with fungals. So in big engagements, fungals is actually better due to the size of infestors. Even if infestors are clumped up, it takes quite a few EMPs to land while it takes 1-2 fungals to nap all the ghosts. Also, if enemy has overseers, your ghosts are just so much harder to retain while infestors can stay in the back and usually get away. zergs have been a lot better with their infestor control and retention.
ive seen one EMP get majoritty of the infesters of a Zerg, infesters clump up pretty nicely and we need all th energy we can get so even removing 2/3rd of the infesters can pretty mcuh gurantee you win the next engagement if your smart at it
It takes 2 EMPs to remove fungal. You only need about 3-4 fungals to adequately accentuate your force for the duration of an engagement; I'd be surprised if a battle lasted longer than that. Also with the lower EMP radius, you really can't hit 2/3 of the infestors if they are maxed and have the appropriate ratio in their composition.
3-4 fungals does not destroy an entire Terran army...
3-4 fungals barely kills 2 small clumps of marines
what? 3-4 fungals ALWAYS kills clumps of marines. I'm pretty sure it only takes 2 fungals to bring marines down to red and 3 to kil them
On August 19 2012 11:12 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: Another wall of text from Avilo, are you losing 100% of your TvZs or something? Terrans have been doing quite well recently in all stages of the matchup.
to simply ignore avilos argument simply because of who he is makes you worse than what you make him out to be. read the text first, and then if you think it's appropriate you can bash it.
That being said, there are some good points and some bad points. Some of the bad points include stating things like "if raven gets fungaled it's basically dead paperweight of 200 gas". This is a ridiculous statement that makes way too many assumptions to be correct.
First, since we are discussing the "late game" of TvZ, we can assume that there are multiple ravens out on the map, let's say 5-10 which have stockpiled a reasonable amount of energy to be considered useful in a battle. Ravens being sniped before having enough energy is a different discussion. Anyways, if you have 5-10 ravens with a good amount of energy, you will ALWAYS have enough energy to put down a couple PDD's. What these PDD's do is completely negate 2-4 corruptor volleys from doing any damage to your ravens. Thus, even if your ravens get fungaled, they would have to be either chain fungaled to death (not energy efficient) or killed by corruptors in more volleys than usual. I believe I'm correct in saying that HSM range is the same if not longer than the range of the corruptor. Thus, to kill ravens after fungaling them with corruptors does not make them "paperweights" becuase HSM is always viable against corruptors should they try to engage.
In addition, you're assuming that once the raven is fungaled, no infestor will ever get in range to be HSM'd since fungal does in fact out range it I believe. However, that's assuming that the zerg player is fungaling PERFECTLY, as in they're holding position outside of HSM range, fungaling the ravens, and always keeping the infestors out of HSM range. This is something that no pro zerg player has the time for. Even at the highest level of play, zergs will always move click their infestors closer to fungal rather than utilizing the maximum range of fungal simply because it's quicker, less time-consuming, and easier to execute than using fungal's max range 100% of the time. Therefore, even when ravens do get fungaled and chained down in place, there will almost always be infestors in range of HSM.
So to say that once ravens are fungaled they are completely useless is just a stupid and lazy argument that undermines the rest of your points. Please don't make points like that in balance discussions
So your whole argument is that if the Z is bad Seeker Missile is good? What? That's a shitty argument and you know it. Most Z's are completely lazy as hell with their Infestor control, much more than T and P players are with Ghosts and HT. They have no idea how to split them, no idea how to keep them out of trouble. This is even true among various pros, especially players like Nestea who have very subpar micro for a professional player, and succeeds simply because of the strength of his macro. Once Z players learn how to play against Raven based compositions, they will pretty much proceed as usual and just simply win.
If Z players want to keep their current Queen, they are going to have to give up something in return, because watching TvZ is the most boring shit ever. It's a race against the clock as to whether or not 1) The T does significant damage before the Z takes his 3rd or
2) The T kills the Z before he hits Hive Tech
or
3) The Z does something completely stupid and misplays the late game terribly and ends up losing because of it.
This is actually a great post avilo. I have had my mind into wanting to test HotS that I don't think as much about the current build and what can be changed, but I feel the creep change, another few raven tweaks and maybe just changing the queen to 4 range instead of 5 would be ideal for now since if it was 3 range it would be pre-patch with more zerg nerfs/terran buffs.
My ZvT is actually quite off and it makes me sad that it was once my best match up in tougher times and now I struggle in fortunate times, but that is because like all players we have weaknesses that can't be attributed to balance and I can acknowledge when Terran has it harder .
On August 19 2012 12:10 Sovern wrote: TvZ is fine right now in my opinion and this is coming from a masters terran. Terrans just need to learn to play more aggressive and cash in on the strengths of terrans early game capibilitys in how well their units are when microed and they need to go back to heavy aggression early openers that apply direct pressure vs this fast expand into fast third bullshit that terrans consider to be good.
Zergs role is to macro hard, terrans is polar opposite, to be aggressive. So if you see a zerg fast expanding like they typically do you should be planting down 4 rax's, applying direct pressure to force units or else the zerg risks losing right away, while expanding after 4 rax's try adding 6 more rax's while grabbing stim and cs. Try this build, I haven't lost a TvZ yet with it as it constantly forces units and with decent marine micro you can straight up kill zergs that go for a third before having a high infestor count.
Isn't 4 rax pretty much an all-in?
4 rax before CC is not all in, you force units from the zerg early on and can straight up kill a zerg that cant defend properly but the key thing to note is that you're applying a heavy amount of pressure as you grab your cc, much more pressure than a typical 2 rax expand. You open standard 2 rax and instead of making a cc you add 2 more rax and continue to deny creep spread and apply pressure.
After I make a CC I make 4 more rax, 1 gas geyser and research stim followed by cs and you can deny early thirds in the mean time, when cs and stim complete you can go to town and deny the third, clean up creep, or normally just straight up end the game since your marine count will be crazy high.
I'm sure that this build can be expanded into a macro build such as after having 8 rax grabbing a third and getting double ebay upgrades and medivacs but right now I've been playing a heavy aggressive all in or die style (i go in with the mindset that terrans late game is the early game) and it seems to be holding up extremely well since nearly every zerg just plays greedy and drones up.
That is like saying proxy 11/11 is not all-in since you force Zerg units early on and straight up kill a Zerg that can't defend properly. I am sure it works if the Zerg is not ready for it but it is an all-in.
TvZ in Korea is balanced. Internationally there are way more top teir zergs than terrans so it would be strange if terrans would have a much higher winrate. Oh wait, they have had the higher winrate over zergs in TvZ in almost every month in sc2's history.
Only like 4 months have zerg had the higher winrate. I think people need to just relax. Its only been a few months and players are still adjusting and already it seems then terrans are starting to do better and figuring stuff out.
On August 19 2012 12:10 Sovern wrote: TvZ is fine right now in my opinion and this is coming from a masters terran. Terrans just need to learn to play more aggressive and cash in on the strengths of terrans early game capibilitys in how well their units are when microed and they need to go back to heavy aggression early openers that apply direct pressure vs this fast expand into fast third bullshit that terrans consider to be good.
Zergs role is to macro hard, terrans is polar opposite, to be aggressive. So if you see a zerg fast expanding like they typically do you should be planting down 4 rax's, applying direct pressure to force units or else the zerg risks losing right away, while expanding after 4 rax's try adding 6 more rax's while grabbing stim and cs. Try this build, I haven't lost a TvZ yet with it as it constantly forces units and with decent marine micro you can straight up kill zergs that go for a third before having a high infestor count.
Isn't 4 rax pretty much an all-in?
4 rax before CC is not all in, you force units from the zerg early on and can straight up kill a zerg that cant defend properly but the key thing to note is that you're applying a heavy amount of pressure as you grab your cc, much more pressure than a typical 2 rax expand. You open standard 2 rax and instead of making a cc you add 2 more rax and continue to deny creep spread and apply pressure.
After I make a CC I make 4 more rax, 1 gas geyser and research stim followed by cs and you can deny early thirds in the mean time, when cs and stim complete you can go to town and deny the third, clean up creep, or normally just straight up end the game since your marine count will be crazy high.
I'm sure that this build can be expanded into a macro build such as after having 8 rax grabbing a third and getting double ebay upgrades and medivacs but right now I've been playing a heavy aggressive all in or die style (i go in with the mindset that terrans late game is the early game) and it seems to be holding up extremely well since nearly every zerg just plays greedy and drones up.
That is like saying proxy 11/11 is not all-in since you force Zerg units early on and straight up kill a Zerg that can't defend properly. I am sure it works if the Zerg is not ready for it but it is an all-in.
On certain maps the 4 Rax before CC is not viable, or even Bomber's 3 Rax after CC is not viable because the OL can be parked at the natural in such a way that you can see the Marines moving out of the natural if you are paying attention (not to mention you should have control of the watch towers with Lings). By the time they get to your 3rd you should be ready with 4 Queens + Lings and Blings if the attack comes that late.
TvZ in Korea is balanced. Internationally there are way more top teir zergs than terrans so it would be strange if terrans would have a much higher winrate. Oh wait, they have had the higher winrate over zergs in TvZ in almost every month in sc2's history.
Only like 4 months have zerg had the higher winrate. I think people need to just relax. Its only been a few months and players are still adjusting and already it seems then terrans are starting to do better and figuring stuff out.
A very large reason why Korean T players are successful is because they are just simply all-inning Z's in some form or fashion with a straight up attack rather than playing the macro / harass style that they used to. It's like watching PvZ all over again, and even though that is actually a balanced match-up, it is not what you want to watch. Not to mention, Terran has no all-in that is even remotely as threatening or as strong as +2 Blink Stalkers or 2 base Sentry/Immortal all-ins. A P can walk onto creep and not give a flying fuck as long as he is money on his FF's; a Terran has to split micro stutter step and macro behind his attack to ensure that he has a chance of just winning.
I think in about a month or two once Korean Z's start adapting to these all-ins and timing attacks (that are virtually all-in by nature of the fact that it is an all out engage where if the T wins, he wins the game, if he loses, he loses no matter what) the winrates will swing back in favor of Z heavily.
TvZ in Korea is balanced. Internationally there are way more top teir zergs than terrans so it would be strange if terrans would have a much higher winrate. Oh wait, they have had the higher winrate over zergs in TvZ in almost every month in sc2's history.
Only like 4 months have zerg had the higher winrate. I think people need to just relax. Its only been a few months and players are still adjusting and already it seems then terrans are starting to do better and figuring stuff out.
Zergs have had a much higher winrate for 4 months, but when did the patch hit? Four months ago. The matchup was more even and more entertaining before the queen buff AND the snipe nerf.
EPT
.
