EPT[D] The raven buff does not address TvZ issues - Page 3
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If this thread can't remain civil then we'll have to close it. Thread will be moderated harshly from pg.3 onwards. | ||
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
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intense555
United States474 Posts
I agree with what you're saying, the queen buff lets zerg drone way too much too quickly. Before the buff, they had to get units against timing sub 10 min, but now this is only the case if it is all in. Otherwise all their precious larva goes to drones off of solely queens. I would not say that the matchup is "imbalanced" but it is a lot harder (skillwise) for terran. | ||
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DarkInfinity
121 Posts
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Kaeru
Sweden552 Posts
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VincendioS
Belgium107 Posts
On August 19 2012 11:37 Mr Showtime wrote: I'm sorry that you're not a good player and can't win a TvZ. Korean Terrans are having fewer and fewer problem against Zerg and the win rate is nearly at 50/50 over the past month or so. No, the patch won't make the Raven more viable, but in the current state of TvZ it doesn't really need to be. More practice and fewer walls of text might help fix your problems that others aren't having. IEM: Vortix 3 - 0 ForGG Vortix 3 - 2 Supernova Violet 3 - 0 Bomber Yeah fewer and fewer problems. | ||
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Ranir
413 Posts
On August 19 2012 11:39 VincendioS wrote: IEM: Vortix 3 - 0 ForGG Vortix 3 - 2 Supernova Violet 3 - 0 Bomber Yeah fewer and fewer problems. Taking 3 games to prove a statistic, gotta love math  | ||
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ritzia1
Canada95 Posts
On August 19 2012 11:39 Kaeru wrote: I've said this since the release. Fungal Growth pinning down units is not a good solution. Fungal Growth should just like Ensnare from Brood War slow units by a high percentage like 80% or something. Why? Because if you catch 20 Vikings in one Fungal, as it is now, you can chain Fungal them to death. While with a slow of 80% or whatever number - Vikings can slowly split and maybe half of them will survive with low health. This wont only affect TvZ but also ZvZ where Mutas suddenly becomes a bit more interesting and less risky to make... What this WONT affect is ground to ground battles. Stalkers won't be able to Blink and their slowed movement wont be microable vs Lings or Roaches. Marines and Hellions will still be slowed by Fungal and catching them with Lings/Banes will still be as viable as now - sure you can split a little more. But that's a good thing! Zealots will be slightly more usefull in PvZ since they won't be pinned and totally wasted - for example if you warp in 8 Zealots with a Warp Prism and they all get Fungaled close to the mineral line. You might force the Zerg to move their Drones to avoid a few Zealot hits. --------------------------------------------------------------- Why is Raven not viable now? In my opinion, one big reason why Ravens are not viable is because none of the Terran builds actually have any goal to get Ravens. When do people get Ravens? In late, late game when you have banked up 1500 gas. BAM 3-4 Starports go down and Ravens are produced... What if Terrans (like me) start making builds that are designed to incorporate Ravens at the 14 minute mark insted? This is at a timing where Terran has 3 bases and very high mineral income... A lot of that income is actually dumped into Scans for killing tumors. Some Ravens might give you 2-3 more Barracks worth of Marine production. Actually (I am high master) I have tried to play a lot of games where I design the builds to incorporate Ravens, and it has been going really well. I remember back then when they were deciding to buff fungal growth it was a projectile you could dodge, but did more damage than the fungal previous to it then decided to just keep it instant cast with the damage buff. I wonder how that would have turned out if it was still a projectile. Obviously Air might be crop up to be a problem, but I just find it odd that the infestor is the answer to air. | ||
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VincendioS
Belgium107 Posts
On August 19 2012 11:41 Ranir wrote: Taking 3 games to prove a statistic, gotta love math Zergs are pointing "Taeja is doing well". I'm doing the same think. When a korean pro gamer is no match so easily by "post-patch" zergs I'm asking question. | ||
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Bobson
Sweden50 Posts
Earlier the ghost was the unit to go to "soft" counter the Zerg T3. Obviously blizzard didnt want terran to use snipe in the big amounts against broodlords and ultralisks but instead focused its fire vs infestor (50 damage vs psionic ) making terran able to 2 shot any infestor instead of they regenerating 1 hp as before 45 pure damage vs the 90 health infestor. This resulted in terran either have to make army[1] dedicated to only destroy air (Vikings,Ravens) but since the viking sucks on ground and raven not even close to strong enough to deal with both compositions it really makes them worthless against anything and will always lose against any ground unit composition resulting in we have to make army[2] (Mass MMM,Siege tanks,thors etc) that can challenge the ground army but lose almost always lose to high amounts of broodlords,infestor. You can test it yourself, go to any unit tester and try to make a simulation where a terran army is able to counter both ground and air vs broodlord,infestor,corruptor and mass ultralisk,infestor,ling,bling. Will be glad to see any results from this. The marine is still a decent unit to deal with both of these but marines can NEVER do the job alone. In TvZ the terran is the player who always have to adapt and counter the zerg army instead of the other way around even though the zerg macro is alot stronger than terran. Since terran has maybe the easiest macro in the game its also the worst. The design is really weird since terran army should according to macro mechanics always be alot stronger but harder to replace. I believe it should be the other way around, zerg is the race supposed to make an army to counter the terran army. I am currently one of 51 terrans in grandmaster on eu atm. Source http://www.sc2ranks.com This is just my thoughts and i am very biased with terran but maybe someone might find this interesting. | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
On August 19 2012 11:19 blade55555 wrote: Ya they are and Korean terrans are saying tvz is fine. citation needed | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
On August 19 2012 11:39 Kaeru wrote: I've said this since the release. Fungal Growth pinning down units is not a good solution. Fungal Growth should just like Ensnare from Brood War slow units by a high percentage like 80% or something. Why? Because if you catch 20 Vikings in one Fungal, as it is now, you can chain Fungal them to death. While with a slow of 80% or whatever number - Vikings can slowly split and maybe half of them will survive with low health. Or at least force the Zerg player to use MORE energy to kill everything off! This wont only affect TvZ but also ZvZ where Mutas suddenly becomes a bit more interesting and less risky to make... What this WONT affect is ground to ground battles. Stalkers won't be able to Blink and their slowed movement wont be microable vs Lings or Roaches. Marines and Hellions will still be slowed by Fungal and catching them with Lings/Banes will still be as viable as now - sure you can split a little more. But that's a good thing! Zealots will be slightly more usefull in PvZ since they won't be pinned and totally wasted - for example if you warp in 8 Zealots with a Warp Prism and they all get Fungaled close to the mineral line. You might force the Zerg to move their Drones to avoid a few Zealot hits. --------------------------------------------------------------- Why is Raven not 'viable' now? (It actually is) In my opinion, one big reason why Ravens are not viable is because none of the Terran builds actually have any goal to get Ravens. When do people get Ravens? In late, late game when you have banked up 1500 gas. BAM 3-4 Starports go down and Ravens are produced... What if Terrans (like me) start making builds that are designed to incorporate Ravens at the 14 minute mark insted? This is at a timing where Terran has 3 bases and very high mineral income... A lot of that income is actually dumped into Scans for killing tumors. Some Ravens might give you 2-3 more Barracks worth of Marine production. Actually (I am high master) I have tried to play a lot of games where I design the builds to incorporate Ravens, and it has been going really well... --------------------------------------------------------------- Personally I like the Queen buff, I also love the new ideas of the new creep tumor range and Raven speed. But in the end - personally - I think that the problem lies in Fungal Growth pinning down units insted of slowing them by a lot... Agreed the main problem is funguls rooting if they made it a slowing spell it would make it balanced. zergs AA would be weaker because of it..... so a buff to the hydralisk to compensate for it would be very good. BLIZZARD LISTEN TO ME!!!!!!! | ||
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.Sic.
Korea (South)497 Posts
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InDesconrowl
Togo311 Posts
the difference between na ladder and these players is hilarious no wonder na doesn't get better impossible to improve playing na players NA will always be behind the metagame and Taeja is not the only terran having success in TvZ. I can name a lot off the top of my head: Byun, MVP, Reality(went on record to say TvZ is easy for him), Kas, Lucifron, Major(beat Hyun in TSL) etc. | ||
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xPabt
226 Posts
On August 19 2012 11:30 SniXSniPe wrote: I'll be happiest for any buff that increase the rate of creep removal after you kill overlord/structures/tumors. Creep is a big factor in the match up which is something indirectly affecting the match up after the queen buff (as Queens can ward off Hellions easier now with the increase ranged), thus letting creep be spread easier. As we all know, creep = increased mobility + secondary vision + delays any immediate Terran push. If creep was spread as quickly as it currently is I guarantee pushes would have a better chance at dealing more damage than vs less creep spread all over the map. This obviously affects the later game, where Terran needs to stall for time to use their Ravens against the GGLords. The tumor creep radius area decrease is a start though. The massive zerg eco from the passivity of the matchup + the creep at least at half way across the map when terran wants to push out lets zerg get out tons of units/morphbanelins because terran has to seige unseige across the creep or they just die. Making creep recede faster doesn't remove anything from the game it ADDS to it. Now instead of stupid games where terran does a 2-2 timing and then tries to counter zergs hive tech you have an early game with terran trying to clean up creep and snipe queens with a medivac of marines because it recedes fast enough for it to be worth it. Although if zerg goes mutas this doesnt happen qqqqq. | ||
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( bush
321 Posts
- why turret so shit? StarCraft units are made to be fucking good in at least 1 (ONE) situation. Raven's autoturret is bad as fuck in every scenario of the game and it takes 50 energy to drop one. It is even worse than Thor's Strike Cannons. ROFL | ||
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ilbh
Brazil1606 Posts
what about increasing the range of HSM? so you can still use it while fungal'ed. I don't remember if its possible to cast HSM while fungal'ed... if not possible they should make it possible. imo Terran has some fundamental problems... but not going to discuss it here lol | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
Raven's always look either completely useless or absolutely godlike, presumably the speed change will skew it so they'll look more useful, more of the time. I don't think Blizzard agree with the belief that TvZ has fundamental problems, they merely think Terran's need a slight poke in the right direction. | ||
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OneBaseKing
Afghanistan412 Posts
On August 19 2012 11:24 CelestialX wrote: You lose to hydralisks in TvZ, get good and shut the fuck up. User was temp banned for this post. hahahahaa, i'm sorry, but that just sounds hilarious. User was warned for this post | ||
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On August 19 2012 11:39 VincendioS wrote: IEM: Vortix 3 - 0 ForGG Vortix 3 - 2 Supernova Violet 3 - 0 Bomber Yeah fewer and fewer problems. This is ignorant on a level that I didn't know existed. | ||
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HeyImFinn
United States250 Posts
On August 19 2012 11:43 Bobson wrote: I believe Avilo has some good points regarding the TvZ current balance. The Raven is imo completely useless against mass ultralisks + infestor combinations and really good vs most air compositions from zerg. What terran need is a unit which can deal better with the tech switches and soft-counter the T3 tech. Earlier the ghost was the unit to go to "soft" counter the Zerg T3. Obviously blizzard didnt want terran to use snipe in the big amounts against broodlords and ultralisks but instead focused its fire vs infestor (50 damage vs psionic ) making terran able to 2 shot any infestor instead of they regenerating 1 hp as before 45 pure damage vs the 90 health infestor. This resulted in terran either have to make army[1] dedicated to only destroy air (Vikings,Ravens) but since the viking sucks on ground and raven not even close to strong enough to deal with both compositions it really makes them worthless against anything and will always lose against any ground unit composition resulting in we have to make army[2] (Mass MMM,Siege tanks,thors etc) that can challenge the ground army but lose almost always lose to high amounts of broodlords,infestor. You can test it yourself, go to any unit tester and try to make a simulation where a terran army is able to counter both ground and air vs broodlord,infestor,corruptor and mass ultralisk,infestor,ling,bling. Will be glad to see any results from this. The marine is still a decent unit to deal with both of these but marines can NEVER do the job alone. In TvZ the terran is the player who always have to adapt and counter the zerg army instead of the other way around even though the zerg macro is alot stronger than terran. Since terran has maybe the easiest macro in the game its also the worst. The design is really weird since terran army should according to macro mechanics always be alot stronger but harder to replace. I believe it should be the other way around, zerg is the race supposed to make an army to counter the terran army. I am currently one of 51 terrans in grandmaster on eu atm. Source http://www.sc2ranks.com This is just my thoughts and i am very biased with terran but maybe someone might find this interesting. I find it rather strange (or sad) that they thought that ghosts would actually be used to deal with infestors. Besides, wasn't snipe supposed to be used to kill "high-priority targets"? | ||
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